SEP Renewal

[cheechm]

As per CAP804:

(b) Renewal. If a class or type rating has expired, the applicant shall:
(1) take refresher training at an ATO, when necessary to reach the level of
proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant class or type of
aeroplane; and
(2) pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL.


Revalidation is:

(i) within the 3 months preceding the expiry date of the rating, pass a
proficiency check in the relevant class in accordance with Appendix 9 to
this Part with an examiner;

So what is the difference if your SEP expires and a week later you do your renewal?

My situation is that I haven't quite reached revalidation by experience (even though I've done 12 hours in the past 12 months, they were all with a CRI therefore P/UT). I was meant to do my SEP revalidation with an examiner today however wx meant I couldn't. My SEP expires tomorrow. If I pass a proficiency check in the next week, what is the difference between that and doing it today?

What paperwork will need to be done? Is there a difference if you do it after expiration of the rating?

[Mach Jump]

So what is the difference if your SEP expires and a week later you do your renewal?

The Test you have to do is no different.

Before you do the Test, once your SEP has expired, You will have to get the Head of Training at an ATO/RF to assess the training you need, which may be none, then sign a Course Completion Certificate to confirm that you have completed the required training. The Examiner will need to see the Certificate before your test, even if you didn't have to do any training.


MJ:ok:

[cheechm]

Does the training have to have commenced after the SEP expired? The only reason I ask is because I went up with an instructor yesterday who basically said he was happy for me to do the proficiency check for revalidation today. My rating expires tomorrow.

[worldpilot]

cheechm,

If you flew with an instructor yesterday and he was happy with your performance, let him validate this outcome by completing the rating page of your licence. That is it. You don't need to fly again.

!! Make sure the date (yesterday's date) is the date the instructor inputs into the rating page.

However, if he/she (the instructor) does not endorse your rating page, and your licence expires tomorrow, you will need to get an authorized CAA examiner to perform a renewal test (revalidation is not possible anymore).

WP

[Mach Jump]

Does the training have to have commenced after the SEP expired? The only reason I ask is because I went up with an instructor yesterday who basically said he was happy for me to do the proficiency check for revalidation today. My rating expires tomorrow.

There doesn't have to be any actual training, it's just a paperwork exercise that has to be gone through if you let your rating lapse. Only the HOT of an ATO or RF can sign the Completion Certificate though.

If you flew with an instructor yesterday and he was happy with your performance, let him validate this outcome by completing the rating page of your licence. That is it. You don't need to fly again.

!! Make sure the date (yesterday's date) is the date the instructor inputs into the rating page.

Worldpilot:

I'm not sure what the procedure is in Germany, but that is not correct in the UK.


MJ:ok:

[worldpilot]

@Mach Jump

For your information, I hold an EASA licence issued by the UK CAA.

I've gone through the revalidation and renewal process here in Germany, based on the UK CAA regulations.

My statement is valid.

I've been flying with the UK licence now for more than 10 years and did both the revalidation and renewal process. SO, I'm quite informed of what it takes to go through these processes.

WP

[Mach Jump]

I've been flying with the UK Licence now for more than 10 years and did both the revalidation and renewal process.

Then you should know that only an Examiner can sign a pilot's licence to revalidate, or renew a rating.

If I were you I would take a good look at your own licence and if any of the pages have been signed by anyone other than an Examiner then it isn't valid.


MJ:ok:

[RTN11]

If you flew with an instructor yesterday and he was happy with your performance, let him validate this outcome by completing the rating page of your licence. That is it. You don't need to fly again.

As Mach Jump says, this is nonsense. Only an examiner should ever be signing your ratings page.

The OP doesn't have enough PIC time to revalidate by experience, so even with the flight with an instructor he is unable to revalidate without a further proficiency check, hence the reason for this thread.

If the instructor happened to be an examiner, and was happy to call it a proficiency check even if it started out as a lesson, that's a different story, but unless that's the case you'll need to complete a check flight with an examiner and submit the relevant forms and possibly a fee to the CAA.

[worldpilot]

As Mach Jump says, this is nonsense. Only an examiner should ever be signing your ratings page. :D:D

Right. It is NONSENSE when ideas are lacking.:=:=

@Mach Jump

It is good to know that you know better than the authorized CAA employees who have validated my credentials and issued me a valid licence.

WP

[RTN11]

Perhaps things are different in Germany, but in the UK, instructors are not authorised to go signing ratings pages, that's the examiner's job.

[Level Attitude]

and issued me a valid licenceNeither an Instructor nor an Examiner have ever issued Licences - That has always been the CAA.

authorized CAA employees who have validated my credentials worldpilot,
Are you confusing Instructors, Examiners and Authorised CAA Employees? They are not necessarily the same thing.

Although they are not (usually) employees of the CAA, Examiners have always been empowered to sign Rating Revalidations or Renewals (but not initial issues) on behalf of the CAA. Pre EASA Examiner Certificates specifically stated this authorisation.

A vast majority of an Examiner course is learning the paperwork requirements - Instructors (unless also Examiners) do not have that training and are not authorised to sign Rating 'certificates'.

Now that we are all EASA then Part-ARA applies, and I would refer 'worldpilot' to CAA Information Notice IN-2013/012 (which, as with all CAA documents, will not Copy and Paste:ugh:) where, in Section 1.3, it states: "Part-ARA Allows Examiners to renew or revalidate ratings...."

Also look at the mass of Examiner forms on the CAA website, eg SRG1157 Examiner's Report where it asks whether the Examiner has signed the Rating's Page or not.

If you still think Instructors can sign to Revalidate or Renew Ratings then please tell us where this authorisation is stated - I cannot find it anywhere!

[RTN11]

The fact is that when you send in the one side of A4 form for revalidation of SEP, it gets scanned and put on file, nothing more.

You could be flying around illegally, with a licence signed by your mum for all it matters, until something goes wrong and they look into your records, and then they throw the book at you.

If I were you, I'd go back through your records and look very carefully. If it is really just an instructor who's been signing your ratings page, and not one who also happens to be an authorised examiner, then I would get this fixed before I took to the air again.

[Mach Jump]

It is good to know that you know better than the authorized CAA employees who have validated my credentials and issued me a valid licence.


Yes I do, and I'm done with being polite with you. The requirements are there online for anyone who can be bothered to read them. SO, if you can bear to take a break from your arrogance for a while, go check your facts.


MJ:ok:

[Level Attitude]

but unless that's the case you'll need to complete a check flight with an examiner and submit the relevant forms and possibly a fee to the CAA. No fee in 'cheechm's case. An appropriate Examiner can renew most Ratings (on a UK Licence) provided the Rating has not expired by more than 3 years. It is also the Examiner's responsibility to submit the forms (within 14 days), not the candidate's.

It is only when the CAA itself has to Renew a Rating that they charge a fee.

A lot of European NAAs do not authorise Examiners to do this 'in the field' and therefore Rating Revalidation or Renewal can cost a lot of money (Germany springs to mind).

It is for this reason, I believe, that the LAPL was designed with a Rolling Validity, rather than expiring Ratings

[worldpilot]

The instructor (yes, instructor with examiner accredidation) who signs the Rating page must Input his examiner's certificate number on the Rating page. That is correct. I'm Not disputing that though.

The correct designation is Flight Examiner (FE).

WP

[BEagle]

worldpilot wrote:

The instructor (yes, instructor with examiner accredidation) who signs the Rating page.....

Once again, only an Examiner (someone who holds an Examiner certificate, there is no such thing as 'instructor with examiner accreditation') may sign the relevant section of a UK-issued part-FCL pilot licence.

Germany, it seems, does not permit Examiners to sign licences 'in the field', which increases cost and keeps the civil service busy. Hence, as Level Attitude stated, the nonsense of LAPL 'rolling validity' which several Member States are now trying to change.

[Piper.Classique]

For information.
An FI is an instructor
An FE is an examiner
An FIE is an examiner of instructors
When in a hole stop digging.

[worldpilot]

:mad: the code word.:eek:

I mean, the flight examiner must hold the relevant instructor certificate (e.g. instructor certificate for PPL (A)).:D:D

WP

[worldpilot]

@BEagle

As narrated in CAP 804:


4 Conduct of skill tests, proficiency checks and assessments
4.1 Before taking a skill test, applicants are advised to verify with their examiner that he holds a licence issued by the CAA, or has been briefed by the CAA. Under Part-FCL (FCL.1015(c)), any examiner intending to conduct a skill test, proficiency check or assessment of competence must have the same State of Licence Issue as the pilot who is to be tested, or he must notify the Competent Authority of the State of Licence issue of the pilot who is to be tested of his intent to conduct the test and obtain a
briefing from that Competent Authority.

Hence, the examiner must have the INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE.

WP

[Mach Jump]

When in a hole stop digging.

First you have to recognise you are in a hole. :rolleyes:


MJ:ok:

[worldpilot]

First you have to recognise you are in a hole.

Mach Jump in the hole.:D:D

WP

[RTN11]

The trouble is worldpilot that the OP only said he had a flight with an instructor, you then chipped in that no further flying was required, just get that instructor to endorse the licence.

The OP never said it was an instructor who also happened to be an examiner. You seem to be under the impression that all instructors are examiners, and pushing that point, which is clearly not the case, and the OP will certainly require further flying with an actual examiner.

Clearly all examiners are instructors, noone is disputing that, but you seem to be claiming the opposite.

[Mach Jump]

Especially when it's an EASA hole?

Tut Tut Tut :ooh:


MJ:ok:

[Level Attitude]

worldpilot,
I genuinely don't know whether you are trying to be provocative, accidently typing the incorrect words/terms or really do not understand the requiremenets.

4 Conduct of skill tests, proficiency checks and assessments
4.1 Before taking a skill test, applicants are advised to verify with their examiner that he holds a licence issued by the CAA, or has been briefed by the CAA. Under Part-FCL (FCL.1015(c)), any examiner intending to conduct a skill test, proficiency check or assessment of competence must have the same State of Licence Issue as the pilot who is to be tested, or he must notify the Competent Authority of the State of Licence issue of the pilot who is to be tested of his intent to conduct the test and obtain a
briefing from that Competent Authority. Hence, the examiner must have the INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE.Apart from it being an Instructor Rating, to conduct a flight test your last sentence is correct.

However this is due to the requirements of Part-FCL.1000(a) and is nothing to do with the paragraph you quoted which is simply explaining the administrative requirements in order for a non-UK EASA Examiner to be allowed to conduct tests on UK Licence holders.
NB: Note the term 'Examiner', this does not apply to an 'Instructor'

I mean, the flight examiner must hold the relevant instructor certificate (e.g. instructor certificate for PPL (A)).:D:DNot quite, to test for a PPL an Examiner must have the privilege to Instruct for the PPL. To test for an SEP an Examiner must have the privilege to Instruct for an SEP (but does not need to have the privilege to instruct for any Licence)

The ability to Test is a privilege found in Part-FCL.1000 but that is not the same as the authority to sign a Rating Certificate.

Under EASA only NAA's may authorise people to sign Rating Certificates. That may be, simply, a clerk employed by the NAA but, additionally, the UK CAA authorises any Examiner to sign such Ratings.

Both a CRE and a TRE are entitled to sign an SEP Rating, but neither of them are entitled to Instruct or Test for a PPL and a TRE is not even entitled to Instruct or Test for an SEP.

Although it would be very strange if it actually happened in practice, I cannot see anything in the rules that would prevent Examiner A from conducting a Flight Test; but then Examiner B signing the Rating Certificate, even if Examiner B was not qualified to have conducted the actual test.

Happy to be shown if I am wrong in that last paragraph.

[3 Point]

"Although it would be very strange if it actually happened in practice, I cannot see anything in the rules that would prevent Examiner A from conducting a Flight Test; but then Examiner B signing the Rating Certificate, even if Examiner B was not qualified to have conducted the actual test."

I have know exactly this to happen in my company. A TRE conducted a Skill test on one of our pilots but did not correctly sign the Certificate of Revalidation. After consulting the CAA, our Head of Training, who is a TRE but not on that type, signed the certificate.

I have also had SEP revalidation by experience signed by TREs who do not hold SEP rating themselves. I've even know Helicopter TREs to sign reval by Exp!

The approval to sign the certificate is certainly not the same thing as the approval to conduct the test!

Happy landings!!