What would have PPruners thought...?

[Whenurhappy]

I've been re- reading Andrew Boyle's Trenchard (Collins, London, 1962). So many of the arguments and struggles he faced during the founding and subsequent decade of the RAF are familiar today - calls for merging with the other Services, lack of investment et seq.

One thing that did catch my eye was a brief description of LARYNX - a high speed unmanned monoplane, designed as a flying bomb. Test flights brought promising results, in part, and testing was moved to Iraq after parts of the fuselage was found by a French naval vessel (who passed on their condolences for not locating the crew). the Air Staff championed this device, which could outrun fighters of the time and work was in train for a 450 knot version. The Cabinet (apparently because of Admiralty pressure) pulled funding. The Air Staff expressed concern about the impact similar missiles might have 'of an enemy in control of the coastline of Northern France'.

Given the recent spate about ' Remember when there was an Air Force...' What would have PPruners of the 1920s have said about 'batteries of catapults, fixed and mobile' flinging unmanned combat aircraft replacing the night bomber force?

[ShyTorque]

I'm not sure about the 1920s but years ago I read that trials were done at RAF Upavon with an unmanned Tiger Moth. In front of the assembled throng of bigwigs it took off then crashed in a heap not many yards further one. One bigwig, who had a stutter, was heard to exclaim "I could throw my b...b.. bloody umbrella further than that!"

[Haraka]

Ah. Shy Torque!
That was allegedly the A.T. Aerial Target in 1917 ( "Target" being the cover name for "Torpedo" ).
On another occasion , so the story goes, it looped straight off of the launcher, sending numerous senior onlookers scattering over Salisbury Plain.

P.S. "Professor" A.M. Low, who was a major instigator behind this machine's concept , subsequently went on to be involved in the "Larynx" project.

[skua]

BTW there is a new biography of Trenchard due this summer, by a different author, obviously promising "fresh insights".

[Haraka]

Boyle's "Trenchard" was issued to Flight Cadets in the days before Cranwell went comprehensive.
.
,
,
,
, Some might even have read it.

N.B. the motto lads :


Work hard!: Play hard!: Trenchard! ( The B*stard!)

[ShyTorque]

Haraka, there may have been such a project but the story I read about was definitely a Tiger Moth derivative and it was in Flight International magazine. I believe these pilotless aircraft versions were known as the "Queen Bee". ;)

[Haraka]

Shy Torque
Certainly the AT was trialled at Upavon in 1917.
The Larynx (which was indeed an attack platform) , in 1925 or so , pre-dated the "Queen Bee" by several years.
This, in the 30's, looked a lot like a Tiger Moth ( although strictly speaking it was more a derivative of the "Moth Major") and as, mainly Naval, AAA aerial targets, rather than attack systems , most of their operations were coastal , or out at sea.

Either way , it's possibly an apocryphal story , as the version told to me used "s-s-s-stick" , rather than "umbrella" .

I would be very interested in any reference to Flight's text version, as mine came purely from conversations during my initial involvement with RPVs, many years ago now.

[Courtney Mil]

WYU,

1920s PPRuNers would have said, "Tush!!! Ridiculous, ungentlemanly nonsense!!! We need knights of the skies manning our aeroplanes. If we deploy this monstrosity we'll have the great unwashed rioting outside the gates of RAF Waddington!!!"

But, of course, they would have been so unenlightened in those days. It would never happen now.

[CoffmanStarter]

Hope you don't mind ... but a little here on Queen Bee Tigers :ok:

Flight International 27/2/53 Page 247 (bottom).

In addition, it had become the first full-scale aeroplane to be completely controlled by radio : in this guise it was the Queen Bee, over one hundred of which were built. As the primary use of the Queen Bee was that of an aerial target for A.A. gunnery this seemed rather a waste of a good aeroplane, but presumably it was necessary, and later models at least were not true Tigers inasmuch as the fuselage was of wooden construction instead of the standard metal type.

Flight : Queen Bee Tiger Moth (https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1953/1953%20-%200249.html)

[oxenos]

"waste of a good aeroplane"

Given the RN's standard of AA gunery at the time, the greatest danger to the aeroplane would be the landing.

[treadigraph]

A Queen Bee still flies today, albeit controlled in the more conventional manner...

G-BLUZ (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=BLUZ)

[Haraka]

Without dragging out references, there was one story IIRC of a "Queen Bee" in a Royal Revue, flying sedately along as the might of the King's Fleet let fly.
There was an an apparent age of shot and shell whistling on all paths but the desired and the Target was in danger of flying unharmed out of sight.
At which point the command was given from on high to the Bee's controller:


" FULL RIGHT RUDDER!"

[Lima Juliet]

The sole surviving Queen Bee flies out of RAF Henlow...

http://www.afors.com/Images/UserImages/Originals/5043_2_gliding_002%20copy.jpg

...she's basically a wooden framed Tiger Moth.

LJ :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Here is a Queen Bee being flown...

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/trainer/de-havilland-tiger-moth-trainer/de-havilland-tiger-moth-trainer-02.jpg

http://www.peakdistrictaircrashes.co.uk/qbcontrols.jpg

Apparently control was via a telephone dial as seen on the bottom right - dial 1 to go left, 2 to go right, 3 to go up, etc...

LJ :eek:

[Lima Juliet]

Here is a picture of LARYNX, which was designed for ship launch...

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/lg527aeaad.png

[Whenurhappy]

Courtney Mil, that's more like it! I do wonder whether the RAF at the time, as a body corporate, were enthused by such developments. But it also shows that the Air Staff were not quite the conservative, dyed in the wool dinosaurs that they have so often been portrayed, at least between the Wars.

LJ - thanks for the photo. A USAF research paper alludes to further work, a decade later, on jet propelled aerial torpedoes. The Cabinet didn't fund it, but a bunch sausage-side took up the idea

It will be interesting to see what a new biography on Trenchard would bring out. Admittedly, the Andrew Boyle one is not the least critical of Trenchard and was, of course, based on interviews with the man himself, as well as interviews with many of his staff over the years.

As a side note, my copy was presented to a Jack Veitch on 23 March 1963, 'wishing him a very happy and successful captaincy' and signed by about 50 colleagues. Would this have been referring to a RAF aircraft captaincy perchance?

[Haraka]

1920s PPRuNers would have said, "Tush!!! Ridiculous, ungentlemanly nonsense!!! We need knights of the skies manning our aeroplanes.

Or, as the old stagers used to cry into their cups (when I were a lad) :

" Oh, for the days of the R.A.F. when it was that the aeroplanes were made of wood and were flown by men made of steel!:}

" It's t'other way round these days etc. etc. :sad:"

Nothing changes: the Service has obviously been going steadily downhill since April 1st 1918.