Awaiting issue of PPL(A)

[surgeon35]

Just passed my skills test and submitted the application to CAA for issue of PPL(A). All the documentation is complete and signed off. Can I go solo while waiting for the licence to arrive and carry a passenger with me? I am told that it might take 3-4 weeks before the licence arrives.

[Mach Jump]

Congratulations on passing your Test.

Can I go solo while waiting for the licence to arrive and carry a passenger with me?

No.Your new Licence is not valid until you have it in youir posession, and have signed it.

You can fly solo under the supervision of your Flight Instructor in the meantime, but not with passengers.


MJ:ok:

[xrayalpha]

Congratulations on passing your test, and welcome to Pprune!

As mentioned, you have to have the bit of paper in your hand.

The reason? Although the flying school/examiner/you will have checked all the paperwork before submitting it, there are an amazing number of applications that get rejected at first application because something is wrong! (issues include exams out of validity, medicals, wrong signatures, forgetting certified id, cheques bouncing, etc)

As a courtesy, we waive all instructor fees for solo flight while students are awaiting their "bit of paper". So they can go solo, but they can't take a passenger for a few weeks.

Might be worth asking if your school does the same?

And come and visit us sometime.

[thing]

Congrats on passing the skills test! Don't be too eager, the license will come soon enough (don't forget to sign it...). Use this bit of time to get the grin off your face otherwise your pax will think you are barking.

[A and C]

Well done on passing the PPL course but the hardest part may be yet to come !

In the past I have had the CAA FCL department.......

Misplace my CPL exam results resulting in the two week delay in getting the results.

Fail to issue a new ATPL ( because my medical certificate was too new!) and then take five weeks to finally get around to doing anything about it.

Send me some guys new IMC rating.

On the whole the pilot part of FCL is the worst part of an otherwise quite good organization.

[Steve6443]

As a courtesy, we waive all instructor fees for solo flight while students are awaiting their "bit of paper". So they can go solo, but they can't take a passenger for a few weeks.

Might be worth asking if your school does the same?

I would question the legality of this, especially in view of insurance. We had the following situation: A student has a signed flight authorisation from his instructor to fly to the location where his examiner is waiting for him. He passes his test, is therefore no longer a student. How does he return to base?

What used to happen is that the instructor would give him a flight authorisation such that he could return to the base - which is in effect what you are doing. However on one instance, the newly fledged PPL made a poor landing on return from his Skills Test, damaged the plane quite severely and the insurance refused to pay because the pilot was not in possession of a licence nor was he a student......

[wb9999]

the pilot was not in possession of a licence nor was he a student......

It is common to allow new PPLs to fly solo as a student before the licence arrives in the post. I see no issue with this, as they are still students and flying with the authorisation of an instructor. They are not a qualified PPL until the licence arrives. There is nothing in the ANO that says a pilot ceases to be a student as soon as they have passed their skills test.

[xrayalpha]

OK,

Don't believe in p*ssing insurance companies around, although to "name and shame" Halifax/Bank of Scotland/Lloyds TSB/TSB have done that to me after a hangar fire caused by our neighbour.

However, student does lots of training, passes exams and GFT, sends off paperwork.

If paperwork wrong, then they are still a student. So covered as a student.

If paperwork correct, then they are still a student until it is issued - because they are not a licensed pilot (where is your licence, sir/madam?)

If licence issued, they might still be a student. Training is now required - and has always been advised - after licence issue. Not all training is dual. So still a student?

Ultimately, as I say, I don't like to p off our insurers. For claims we have made - rather than making off other people's insurers - they have been excellent. And we like to make sure we are fully covered. It costs, though!

So we are actually covered in the policy whether or not the person is a student.

To that extent, where we are concerned, the above is therefore irrelevant.

But BUYER BEWARE!

Even if you are a basic student or experienced renter make sure there is valid insurance in place at all times.

[Steve6443]

There is nothing in the ANO that says a pilot ceases to be a student as soon as they have passed their skills test.

Maybe not, but think for a moment:

A student signs up to gain his PPL. Once he has passed the PPL, the contract between him and the school where he was learning has been fulfilled, the student is therefore no longer a student (simplistically speaking although we know he could still learn more.) However you are going to continue calling him a student until his licence arrives.

If you are to deem this person to be a student, then - and here I think you will agree with me - the ANO does specifically state that a STUDENT PILOT (and this is what you are calling him) MAY NOT carry any passengers with him when solo.

Please note the original post was asking to carry a passenger with him hence my statement about legality.....

The insurance side of things is another aspect I was also pointing out and I would ALWAYS want to ensure that I am ensured when flying because the insurer might not take too lightly to a "student" who has passed his test being allowed to fly on insurance as a student rather than as a newly qualified pilot - to them, it's all about risk management and premiums.

[Level Attitude]

According to FCL.045 a pilot with a valid Licence must always carry it with them (plus medical, plus photo ID) when exercising that Licence's privilege(s) (ie flying an aircraft).

Someone who does not have a valid Licence must be a student and they can only fly solo if authorised, and supervised, by an FI (using their privilege FCL.905.FI (a))

However I would be unsure of the wisdom of authorising someone to fly solo back from their PPL Skill Test (generally driving instructors don't let candidates drive back from a driving test) - too many emotions possible.

Even a Licenced pilot will probably be a student again at some point (revision, rating renewal, new rating, etc) but, as they hold a valid Licence, then an FI's privilege FCL.095.FI (a) no longer applies. There has been a long discussion previously on this forum on whether/or not a valid Licence holder with an expired Rating can be authorised to go solo and, if so, by whom. (I hold that it is not possible).

[xrayalpha]

Steve,

You were the one mentioning an instructor signing off a student for a solo xc to reach the venue for their GFT.

It is not something we would do.

First, we would rather the student to be "fresh" for their test, so en-route weather etc would not be a worry.

Second, how could they then have a beer afterwards!

I think we all agree: no passengers until after paperwork issued.

We may disagree, for an ab initio student, can they be a solo sign-off until then.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

A student has a signed flight authorisation from his instructor to fly to the
location where his examiner is waiting for him.


This is a somewhat unusual procedure and one that I wouldn't advocate. No matter how much confidence you might have in your pupil; don't complicate this special day... keep it simple! If the circumstances dictate that both pupil and aeroplane must go to the examiner then have the instructor go with him/her. If your student subsequently failed the Skills Test how would you have recovered the aeroplane back to your operating base without you being with him/her? Notwithstanding all else, have you considered what the examiners thoughts might be with respect to your own (the flight instructors) professional ability/judgement. As an examiner I'd be less than impressed by such a convoluted plan.

TCF

[BackPacker]

Well, I'm not sure I agree.

Surely the flight to the examiner is not going to be a challenging x-country, but most likely a short positioning flight via a very familiar route to and from a very familiar airfield. And by the time a candidate is ready for a PPL exam, the outcome of the exam (a pass) should already be 99% sure. In that respect, the risks associated with it are minimal. Far less than the QXC, for instance.

But at the same time it may have enormous psychological benefits. Before and during the initial positioning flight you have already done a pre-flight, runup and flown the aircraft. It's working, and you've setup the radios and such exactly the way you want it. Nobody has touched the aircraft after you landed. You then collect the examiner, and can do the supervised preflight in the knowledge that the aircraft is OK. In fact, you'll probably have far more confidence and mental capacity to treat the examiner as a passenger than if this is your first flight in this aircraft today, and you have no idea in what state the previous student left it.

All that may continue through the rest of the flight. So I think the psychological advantage of just having done a solo flight (a short x-country even) to pick up the examiner may have tremendous benefits.

Obviously as the instructor signing out the student, I'd insist on receiving a call once the exam is over, and making sure the candidate had at least half an hour to an hour rest before the flight home. Just so that the adrenaline could wear off. And in the very unlikely event that the candidate failed, you can still sign him out to fly home on a student licence. (Which needs to be done in case of a pass too, because by then the licence will not have arrived back from the CAA yet.) Or, if he's not up to it, drive over and fly the plane yourself while the student drives your car back.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Well, I'm not sure I agree.

You don't have to agree... everyone has a differing opinion.

You cannot say, with 100% certainty, that your student will pass the Skills Test. If the student should fail the test and remedial training is recommended by the examiner, are you really going to authorise his/her solo return to your operating airfield?

[BackPacker]

Well, it would depend of course. But the instructor has, in the past, already signed out this student for a first solo, a XC solo, a QXC and possibly a few other "firsts". So a short positioning flight should not pose a problem.

The most important consideration, IMHO, would be the frame of mind the student is in, after having failed the skills test. That's why I would insist on a phonecall after the exam, regardless of the outcome.

But technically speaking, if the student is ready for his skills test, then a short positioning flight should not be a problem at all.

And you can also look at it the other way. If the student passes the skills test, then by law he is entitled to circumnavigate the world, without any further training at all. That's what the instructor supposedly prepared him for. So if the instructor is not confident the student can do a short positioning flight on his own, then it's the instructor who should be failed.

[Pirke]

You cannot say, with 100% certainty, that your student will pass the Skills Test. If the student should fail the test and remedial training is recommended by the examiner, are you really going to authorise his/her solo return to your operating airfield?

I don't see the difference with the first solo XC flight. In my opinion that's a far more dangerous flight from a skills perspective.

The only real risk I see with letting him fly back solo again after failure is the psychological state. He's probably sad and concentration might not be optimal in such situation.

[ChickenHouse]

International flight regulations are strict and that since foundation of ICAO. No, as long as you do not have your physical license in hands, you are not allowed to fly.

It is always the same discussion on exam as well and everybody knows the problem. You are allowed to give your student flight authorization to fly to a remote airfield for examination, but the moment the examiner declared him pilot, the student is grounded until he receives the license physically. You can cry, you can howl to the moon, believe in the strangeness of this, but it is fact and known since a long time.

In all international flight regulations you are promoted pilot by the declaration of the examiner, independent of the paper of a license. If you are a pilot, you have to carry your license. If you don't, you can't fly. It has a reason this has been settled like this and you are not the one to change this part of the world.

I always thought that it is a real bad habit to start the career as a pilot with the illegal solo flight back home after exam on flight authorization of your former trainer. When I did my exam I received a flight authorization from the examiner, which I did not question, but it felt a little less illegal compared to the authorization from the ATO.

[riverrock83]

ChickenHouse
You aren't going to send the student on an International flight so I'm not sure what international regulations have got to do with it. Surely the international regs only apply once a licence has been received.

In the UK at least (and I suspect - the rest of Europe) an examiner doesn't declare you a pilot. The authorities do after all paperwork is completed and you receive a licence through the post.

My memory is that under EASA a student has to now carry a copy of their authorisation. Does that mean that the examiner has to sign it on behalf of / as the instructor? Or does the student get the authorisation before they leave home base?

I know that straight after the skills test (which I passed) I wasn't in a fit state to drive, never mind fly for several hours after completion with head spinning. A skills test is an intensive couple of hours...

[Pirke]

The examiner only checks if you comply with the requirements of the skill test. If there is another issue (your theoretical certificate is invalid, whatever) you don't get your license. Without holding the paper in hand, you're not a licensed pilot. A school can send non-licensed pilots off for solo flights if they can perform them safely. If something happens, the school is responsible.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

This subject has now gone into 'thread drift' by the engagement of 'Warp Drive'. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however, the introduction of many 'if's and buts' doesn't/shouldn't sway opinion of good old common sense. Even if the student did pass his/her Skills Test it's not good practice to allow the euphoria of that event to, perhaps, thrust lack of concentration upon a newly qualified pilot to fly the aeroplane (solo) back to his/her airfield. It has been previously mentioned that a Driving School would not normally allow a newly qualified driver to drive the car after passing his/her driving test; for good reason! Psychological advantage has been quoted as being a good precursor to the Skills Test. I'd hasten to add that by authorising a return solo flight, immediately after the test, would be a psychological disadvantage in maintaining a modicum of safety and awareness. In my book that's called lack of 'Common Sense'!

[BackPacker]

Does that mean that the examiner has to sign it on behalf of / as the instructor? Or does the student get the authorisation before they leave home base?

From a practical point of view, I would imagine that the instructor signs the authorization for both flights (to and from the examiner airfield) as one document. I mean, you don't sign/carry three separate forms for the three legs of the QXC, do you? But as said, I would add the condition (and put it in writing) that the student phones the instructor before flying home.

And I would insist that the student somehow takes time to unwind after the exam. Have lunch, go for a walk, read a newspaper, whatever. But spend at least an hour away from the aircraft and from the whole flying environment in general, to let the adrenaline wear off.

[Steve6443]

From a practical point of view, I would imagine that the instructor signs the authorization for both flights (to and from the examiner airfield) as one document. I mean, you don't sign/carry three separate forms for the three legs of the QXC, do you? But as said, I would add the condition (and put it in writing) that the student phones the instructor before flying home.

In my case, I had to fly to an airfield around 12 minutes away, meet the examiner there, carry out my skills test, drop off the examiner and then return to my home base. I had three PLOGs, one for the flight there, duly signed by my instructor, one for the skills test and one for the return flight, again signed by the instructor and issued just in case I failed the test. I passed, returned to my home base.

A few weeks later there was an article in a GA mag about the legal and insurance ramifications of PPLs flying back from their skills test, having passed their exams but without actually possessing the licence. The human factors side of it wasn't mentioned, it focussed purely on the legal and insurance side. Since then, school's rules state that the instructor has to fly with his student to the examiner or the examiner has to come with the student....

[Mach Jump]

...Since then, school's rules state that the instructor has to fly with his student to the examiner or the examiner has to come with the student....

Sounds like the best policy to me, for all the reasons stated above.


MJ:ok:

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I had to fly to an airfield around 12 minutes away, meet the examiner there, carry out my skills test

Twelve whole minutes away! Why could the examiner not have come to you?

[Steve6443]

Quote:
I had to fly to an airfield around 12 minutes away, meet the examiner there, carry out my skills test
Twelve whole minutes away! Why could the examiner not have come to you?

Twelve minutes for me to fly to him as the crow flies or an hour for him to drive to me and then an hour back. Not everyone owns their own aircraft, do they........

[cheechm]

In the States, the night after passing my JAR PPL I did solo night circuits. All that I needed from the instructor was their authorisation.

[localflighteast]

Hmmm here in the great white north, once the person responsible at the flight school is happy that youve passed all your exams , done the ground school etc they send off your application to transport Canada.
In the meantime they sign the back of your student permit and that counts as your License until TC get round to sending you your booklet.

Seems sensible to me

[PPLvirgin]

Well done mate.

I passed my PPL in March and recieved my licence this week.

This site is great to view and learn from a lot of people who are always willing to give advice, as you can tell from this thread it can go a bit awry but generally its always worth checking in on this site or posting a question as you tend to get very good advice.

Further more - it does open your eyes, whilst having passed my test, not one person including my examinor, local CFI and FI's told me stuff that has become very prudent, ie flying with a pssenger etc...

the mind boggles sometimes at the amount of info one is required to take in, once again to pen pushing regulations which we think are designed to keep us safe, but it seems to me also a way of fleecing us of our hard earned money and giving a reason to have a big organisation that like to wield power over us GA flyers & Co

Well done mate on PPL, happy flying!!!:ok:

[RTN11]

Quote:
I had to fly to an airfield around 12 minutes away, meet the examiner there, carry out my skills test
Twelve whole minutes away! Why could the examiner not have come to you?
Twelve minutes for me to fly to him as the crow flies or an hour for him to drive to me and then an hour back. Not everyone owns their own aircraft, do they........

It should really be the examiner who travels though, it certainly is in the UK. If they're that fussed they invoice you for it, but it would still be cheaper than 24 mins flying time.

Sending students solo between exam pass and paperwork issue is a bit of a legal grey area, but it really shouldn't be. The candidate has just passed his test, likely at the peak of their currency and knowledge. Is the best thing for them really to sit about not flying for 4-6 weeks waiting on a bit of paper, after which they are perfectly entitled to take 3 other souls with them into the air. It's far better if they are able to keep their newly learnt skills fresh and current, under the supervision of an instructor and still solo, and the insurance companies really need to get on board with this.