EK Pilot Numbers

[Rim-job]

Juts took a glance at the seniority list.... Thought these figures were quite interesting.

In the last 11 months... we've lost a total of 83 pilots (retirement, leaving, etc). However, we've only hired 131. For a net gain of +48 pilots in the last 11 months.

Hardly the numbers we need to have onboard in order to keep up with deliveries, expansion, etc. And hardly the numbers HR talked about recruiting during the wash-up meetings.

And they said our monthly flight hours would be reducing. Yea, right!! :=

Thoughts??

[vfenext]

If you're a 7 year FO then you've made some bad decisions!

[BLOGGSON]

What, like being forced onto the Dugong against your will? Not really the individuals decision but it has a profound effect.

[Mango]

vfenext said;
If you're a 7 year FO then you've made some bad decisions!

Err, I think you will find that many airlines have a waiting period of 10 plus years before FOs get upgraded to captain. So I don't know what point you are trying to make??? 7 years for a upgrade is a good decision!

[Emma Royds]

Err, I think you will find that many airlines have a waiting period of 10 plus years before FOs get upgraded to captain. So I don't know what point you are trying to make??? 7 years for a upgrade is a good decision!

It's all relative. 7 years for a widebody command outside of the Gulf would be an amazing prospect but for those in the Gulf - it's a long time.

[Payscale]

7 year FO or not. It has nothing to do with the numbers mentioned in the first mail. Ex collegues in my old out fit have waited for 25 years for commands and only this or next year will get one...on A320 or B737.

Bitching about 4-7 years is just ridiculous.

4 is the norm. If there are a few 7 year FO it is an exception. Someone moved from the A330 to A380 just before their commands. That is hardly the norm. So you objective must be to scare people from coming.

I gather most people dont wake up in the morning at say I want to join Emirates. Usually it due to circumstances back home. Thats why we see people coming in groups from the same areas. These days it the Spaniards. Ole..

[fatbus]

And to assume the company will double in size every few years will lead to disappointment!

[johnnyramjet]

Be sure and bid if you are reserve. Just spoke with two guys that did not bid. They now have a full roster for April and no reserve days.

[777X]

And to assume the company will double in size every few years will lead to disappointment!

Is the plan still to increase from present 205 to 320 airframes by 2018? That could mean a net gain of 1,900 pilots over the next 4 years, assuming 8 crew set / airframe, plus attrition. There had even been talk of 400 airframes by 2020.

Still, 492 aircraft on order including the 120 options is a lot of hiring at some stage, even if the entire current fleet was to be retired by the time of last delivery.

[TheColonel]

I think a lot of those on order and replacements too..

[fatbus]

280 by 2020 is the fleet plan,

[CautionShortRunway]

Tim Clark for Gulf News 7th of May 2013.

What is Emirates’ current fleet size and where do you think it will reach by 2020?

It’s around 200 aircraft at present. We know we have 240 aircraft planned to be in use by 2017 and that is an amount of incremental units and retirement of the old fleet. We are in the process of getting through 68 of the old aircraft – they all have to be retied. So they will have been finally gone by then.

Emirates to start 777X talks with Boeing in 2 months | GulfNews.com (http://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/emirates-to-start-777x-talks-with-boeing-in-2-months-1.1180428)

[Flap1 Retard]

The topic raised by CSR is true, but is dependant on your position on the seniority list. The figures quoted are both on the lower side of actual. The point though is very much valid and raises the question of why no 12 month planning?

CF took great pleasure in telling wash-up groups that EK have man power reviews every 3 weeks compared to other airlines who do it 4-6 months, and thats because EK supposedly monitor the situation closely.

However CF was a little taken back when it was pointed out that instead of being a good thing, that FACT shows the opposite. Yes or no - net gain of 24 a/c next year? Yes (CF & CPA), so 24 x number of crews required to operate them. Add expected leavers = Man power requirement for 2014/15! :D Only thing to monitor is the recruitment and that is a different topic.

Payscale is right, 4 yrs for UG, but once again that time doesn't take into consideration future UG. The last UG on the list has been in EK for 4yrs. However look at the number of F/O's who, this time next year, would of been in EK for 4 yrs+: There's around 450 of them!! :ugh:

It is easy to say "get over it", especially if you're already a Capt. :oh:

[CautionShortRunway]

Reports: Emirates eyes new first-class product | Components content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/components/reports-emirates-eyes-new-first-class-product)

Looks like Emirates fleet is planned to grow by total of 32 aircraft by 2020.

Assuming 18 Crew per aircraft in average that would translate to around 300 more captain positions by 2020. Adding in attrition of 3% for 5.5 years would add around 300 more captain positions.

It looks like 600 upgrades in the next 5.5 years.

[fatbus]

Most of the attrition is from FOs, due in part because of the increasing time to the LHS, so somewhere between 300 and 600 Capt ( closer to 300, mostly 380) in the next 5.5 years.

[donpizmeov]

Bond for new joiners at EK now $US45 and 5yrs. To stem the flow perhaps?


The Don

[Payscale]

First officers upgrading today have been on the their fleet about 4-5 years.

[Rather Be Skiing]

Bond for new joiners at EK now $US45 and 5yrs. To stem the flow perhaps? The Don

45 bucks isn't too bad! ;-)

[Dropp the Pilot]

It's not a bond. Ask anyone who has tried to leave Singapore and they will draw you a diagram.

[lospilotos]

First officers upgrading today have been on the their fleet about 4-5 years.

The most junior non-DEC captain on 777 joined apr-2010, so upgrade in approx 4 years, that´s not bad.

However, if you join as a F/O on the 777 today you have 1000 guys ahead of you. Even with a "best case" scenario where you jump up 100 places/year (upgrades/attrition) that´s at least 10 years.

[Alconguin Crusader]

I can't believe EK up its Bond for training.
Bonds should be illegal!
Pilots thinking of joining should think long and hard about everything associated with Emirates but especially take a long hard look at the Bond issue.
Total crap.

[Dropp the Pilot]

It's not a bond. I may have said this before.

[Alconguin Crusader]

What is it then?
Don't get all technical on us. If it is an instrument to restrict freedom of movement then it is a Bond and an illegal one at that.

[Widebdy]

Whats illegal about a bond? Nothing I would guess. You want them to type rate you on a 777 and let you walk out the door never to return one week later?

You can argue the bond is too long and the cost is too high but most people see nothing wrong with a bond.

Personally $45,000 seems a lot and 5 years is too long. The problem is the where do you draw the line? Perhaps in 10 years airlines will do "lifetime bonds" or $100,000 buy out :}

[Alconguin Crusader]

Most pilots and most employees DO have a problem with Bonds.
After all a Bond is nothing more than an acknowledgement from the company that they are not paying Industry Standard pay rates and will use artificial methods to keep you in place.
Look at the concept, we are going to keep you in Bondage. How is that legal?
BA, LH, AA, DL and QF don't have Bonds. They must pay Industry Standard pay so hence no one leaves the company.
As a pilot Widebody you should be very much against a Bond of any kind.

[johnnyramjet]

Widebody, I think ek is $36000 and a 3 yr bond. I did it, and it never restricted my freedom or movement as AC might think. EK gave me a good type rating, if I was to skip in short time I owe them some or all of the training cost. I am still here after 8 yrs and still looking for something better. :ugh:

[donpizmeov]

Johnny,


Joiners as of Apr 14 (with 3 exceptions) have a bond of $45000 and 5 yrs. Hello tomorrow.


The Don

[johnnyramjet]

Thanks Don, I did not know that. That may have kept me from joining if that was the policy 8 yrs ago. Ek better wake up.

[allaru]

Anti-Slavery - Bonded Labour (http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/bonded_labour.aspx)

[johnnyramjet]

Allaru, No one is forced to come to EK to work. That is a big difference from laborers that are forced to work to repay. We are our own worst enemies as pilots. Look at RJ pilots in the US accepting $22,000 a year to work, is that not another twist on bonded labour. They make so little with such little time off, how do they have the freedom to get out?

[cerbus]

"Despite the fact the Bonded Labor is illegal (UN 1956). "
Isn't that clear for everyone?
I can't believe we have a pilot saying he is happy he paid a Bond unless he is typing from the 3rd floor at EGHQ or from that crap LLC airline from Ireland.

[atpcliff]

I just talked to a 20 year Delta pilot. He does not have enough seniority to make wide-body captain at his base...so still an FO.

In the US I would say 5-12 years is the normal to make captain on their airline's smallest aircraft.

[nolimitholdem]

No one is forced to come to EK to work.

Guess it depends on how widely you define "forced". Perhaps in the "Glory Days" (when were those, again?!) people joined voluntarily, but a great many came due to unemployment or even worse working conditions elsewhere (*cough* Ryanair *cough*).

Choosing between making a living and not, feeding a family, or not - sure sounds like "forced" to me, no matter what word semantics one wishes to play. And if people come with debt, then they sure as hell will be "forced to work to repay".

At least it puts paid to EK's boasts about it being such a great employer. As well as their lies about attrition not being a problem. Both questions are answered resoundingly by increasing the period of slavery by 50%! :ooh:

[gl69]

Must be a NWA pilot in ATL but what does that have to do with EK numbers?
A Widebody Delta pilot in JFK and DTW is down to 14 years.

[nolimitholdem]

@atpcliff,

An American major bears no resemblance to EK in any way, shape or form. (For good and bad). If he wants a wide body command quicker, he's free to apply at EK, there should be a few spots opening up.

Didn't think so.

[The Turtle]

And that 777 "type" is P2...hardly worth anything


for 36K I'd want a P1

[MerAir80]

The bond is 42.000$ for 5 years.

MD

[ZOCC]

Whats the time to command like for the bunch of Airbus Drivers joining directly on the A380's like ?

[fatbus]

About 6+ at the moment and that should stay the same for near future. 777 looks to be slowing down overall, soon it will match the 380. A bit surprised by TC statement of fleet size by 2020, can't find it but I think it said @38 additions planes by 2020, lower than 280 total once stated.

[Cowtown]

6+ sounds about right. Many of the 330/ 340 guys going through the upgrade right now are 6.5 to 7.5 years. For QOL the 380 is probably the fleet to aim for, depending on what you classify as QOL. Anyone being offered the 330 right now would need to be remember that if they are offered the whale, in two or three years time, will have their hours reset to zero towards the upgrade. As has been mentioned already, any type rating given as an F/O is P2 only. It's all about timing, as with any job, and right now isn't the best of times. Unless of course your faced with being out of work soon, then any job that pays the bills.... We will see what the coming weeks bring to our package.