The Great Escape

[Xenophon]

(Not seen this started elsewhere)

Today is 70th Anniversary of this piece of our history .Fitting commemorations have been held at what remains of Stalag Luft 3 and a piece was broadcast on BBC 6 news this evening.

Am I being churlish in thinking that it was a bit PC of them not to mention the repercussions that were visited on those recaptured . I know Germany is now our friend and ally but it stuck in my craw that these brave men were , for want of a better word , executed. Alleged "crimes" against our ex-enemies , e.g. Dresden , Hamburg & Bomber Command in general are regularly raked over.
Just a thought.

[BEagle]

Executed by Nazis, not by 'Germans'...

[vascodegama]

I would say that the better word is murdered.

[goudie]

Executed by Nazis, not by 'Germans'...

I don't buy into the practice of refering to all Germans, during WWII, as Nazis. Not all Germans were members of the Nazi political party but many of them carried out it's evil deeds. We never refer to the British, during the war, as The National Coalition Party. Whatever political party one belongs to one is still British, French, German etc.
The Germans who carried out this execution were most likely members of the Nazi Party but they were still Germans!

[Xenophon]

Mr Beagle, sir
Nazis, Huns, Prussians, Boche, Teds - call 'em what you will. It's not who killed these chaps that is the point for me but that they were executed for the "crime" of escaping. The fact that the order for this was given by the leader (at the time) of the German state has no bearing on the matter for me.

[wdowell]

I personally think the general German population of those years were as much victims as those in Britain and elsewhere. They were manipulated, conscripted and killed in their millions because of the Nazi high command.

It was travesty and I'm in awe that such population and their descendants managed to work themselves tirelessly to rebuild a reputation of good people and infrastructure to global accepted success.

[500N]

That is very true indeed.

Not only built a new country but made sure it wouldn't revert back.

[papajuliet]

It's often overlooked that there was a large scale raid on Berlin on the same night with heavy losses. Partly that was due to exceptionally high unforecasted winds [ it became known as "the night of the big wind" in Bomber Command legend ]. It has a special meaning to me as an uncle, flying Lancaster ND565 with 44 Sqd., was shot down. His aircraft had strayed off course and was hit by flak over the Ruhr. I'll raise a silent toast to him and his crew at one minute after midnight - the time the records show he was hit.
I've never bothered to find out the political persuasion of those who manned the AA guns - I've always thought they were Jerries [we call them Germans now]

[barnstormer1968]

I saw a report on TV news that mentioned some of the escapers being shot.
I agree with the Nazi rather than German idea as the camp commandant was appalled at what happened, and allowed the prisoners to build a memorial to the murdered men.

[MightyGem]

I saw a report on TV news that mentioned some of the escapers being shot.
So, you never knew until then?

[Avtur]

I am going to regret writing this but the order to execute them was allegedly given by Hitler: So as part of a military machine, one normally carries out the orders of ones C in C, no matter what your personal opinion. Although I find what I write repulsive in this instant, we must practice the ethos of Commander commands, subordinate complies; it doesn't work any other way.

I'm off, sorry...

[Hangarshuffle]

Also, wouldn't it be justified for the escapers to be shot because in effect they were dressed as spies? i.e. out of uniform and travelling with false documentation? IAW the Geneva Convention?
The Great Escape story was covered about 15 years ago in one of the weekend supplements, taken from a book. It dealt with the bit in which the RAF SIB absolutely ruthlessly tracked down and then the
subsequent execution of the Germans who carried out the original shootings.
My late father always seemed to think or rather remember actually listening to the news of the murders (or executions depending on your outlook on the war) of the RAF men was announced by the BBC radio as a communique, and said its shock value was absolutely horrendous, even after what 5 or 6 years of war. Can anyone confirm this? i.e. German communique was made and passed through to Britain.
Thought the original film now looks dated as...time for a proper modern remake by someone.

[NutLoose]

Errr there is such a thing as an illegal order and carrying out that order makes you a war criminal.. True the option to say no and survive was probably slim, but some did. Personally I don't think I could live with myself murdering prisioners, let alone women and children. But they did.


In this months Britain at War there is the story of one of those that died and his young wife who never got over his death and died having never remarried. Oddly enough he was an Austrailian Warrant Officer who rightly believed he would have an easier life in an officers camp so concealed his rank when his uniformed was burnt abandoning his Spitfire.

Hangar shuffle, the person I mentioned manufactured compasses for all of the escapers and marked them all made in Stalag luft 3 thus showing they were prisoners and not hiding that fact to prevent that happening. The camp commandant was so horrified he allowed the prisoners to build the memorial.

[Wander00]

I have a personal interest in the Great Escape, by a strange set of coincidences. I sat at a dinner once next to a woman who had been widowed by the murder of one of the 50 - and let's not confuse murder and (legally justified) execution. Later on, one of the members of the Yacht Club of which I was Secretary died and we held his wake in the Clubhouse, and scattered his ashes from the Club pontoon. But for being in the "cooler" at the time, this Naval observer would have been in the tunnel. At the wake were three other former inhabitants of Stalag Luft 3. I shall never forget any of them, nor the sad story told me by the widow. Men of great courage, all of them.

[Hangarshuffle]

Err doesn't that get ever so blurry nutloose?
There's a picture of the actual shooting/murder/execution of one of the SF teams of German partroopers on here somewhere (on the net). The ones who were dropped in behind lines (in Allied uniform) to wreck mischief during the Ardenne Counter Offensive. Its a well know tale. Caught, tried, shot by American Firing Squad (but hushed up until after the war).
What's the difference, really? Both brave sets of young lads doing as ordered or expected.
Anyway I'm drifting the thread too much. Those RAF escapees were brave beyond words. RIP.

[Kitbag]

Errr there is such a thing as an illegal order and carrying out that order makes you a war criminal.. True the option to say no and survive was probably slim, but some did.

I agree with the view, but I believe that definition and response to an illegal order is relatively (& surprisingly) recent; see the 1945 London Charter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Charter_of_the_International_Military_Tribunal) that set up the IMT and Nuremburg Trials.

[NutLoose]

True HS..

One here was lucky as he was spared because of his name, as they thought he may have been related to the other Churchill.

Last British 'Great Escaper' tells how he escaped execution - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/10716508/Last-British-Great-Escaper-tells-how-he-escaped-execution.html)

[Mike Gallafent]

It so happened that one of the escapers became my flight commander after the war. He seldom spoke of his experiences but did relate how he and a companion were subsequently caught after the escape. Interrogated by the Gestapo, he was returned to captivity and his companion was chosen to be shot. One was tall, fair, nordic and typically aryran in looks. His fellow escapee was sallow and swarthy in complexion and mediterranean in appearance. He honestly believed he survived because of the accident of genes.

[barnstormer1968]

MightyGem

Of course I knew, but I was referring to the part of post #1 that mentions this being left out of media coverage.

I also heard a report on the anniversary of the escape that said only three men survived, which is confusing making a home run with surviving, but that isn't the point of the thread.

Although both sides in WW2 had times when no prisoners would be taken alive, I still feel there is a difference here (being in mind I wasn't there and am sat comfortably in England).

I feel that many in the Waffen SS were happier to shoot unarmed solders or civilians than the average Brit, Canadian or American may have been when ordered that no surrendered Axis troops were to be taken as live prisoners in the early stages of the D day OP.

[Avtur]

Errr there is such a thing as an illegal order and carrying out that order makes you a war criminal..

if you were ordered to carry out an execution of a "spy", as we also did in the 40s, would you have demanded all the evidence and "court" documents to peruse and review before deciding whether your order was legal or not?

[MG23]

if you were ordered to carry out an execution of a "spy", as we also did in the 40s, would you have demanded all the evidence and "court" documents to peruse and review before deciding whether your order was legal or not?

If I remember correctly (I read a book on the subject a few months ago), these men were driven into the country, told they were stopping for a pee break, and then shot in the back of the head.

Most people might kind of think that was a bit out of the ordinary, and possibly not legal. The Nazis apparently did, since many of them appear to have found subordinates to do it for them on verbal orders, in the hope they wouldn't be blamed.

[cynicalint]

The preceding discussions miss the point entirely. The 50 officers killed had already been recaptured, and were in custody. They were undoubtedly murdered as an act of revenge using 'shot while escaping' as an excuse. It was certainly an illegal order and no amount of rationalisation post-event will excuse, or justify, any of the murders done. The word 'Execution' suggests some form of judicial process which did not happen; the recaptured officers were murdered, no ifs, no buts or whatevers; they were murdered as an act of revenge by the German government at the time.


While on the subject of what did not happen, Paul Brickhill's brilliant account of the escape never mentions the character played by Steve McQueen, as it was a compilation character of several British officers' efforts, not American officers, and the motor-bike scene is pure Hollywood fantasy only to sell the film to the US audiences. But unfortunately, it is the first scene that everyone recalls about the film....and he is riding a BSA!

[Avtur]

I do understand what you are all saying and do not disagree, but my point is that in the context of that war, it is unlikely that anyone would have outwardly questioned the directive of the leadership's commands, let alone raising a red card on the validity or legality of an order.

I feel I know what I am trying to argue, but really don't want to in light of the sensitivity of the issue. So I will drop it out of respect to those brave people who sadly didn't make it.

[500N]

cynic

I can forgive the BSA / Steve McQueen bike scene as being fiction because it had a purpose and isn't the main part of the film !

At least they didn't make the whole damn thing "by Americans" like they did with the Enigma machine capture !

[Pom Pax]

My late English master missed out on the Great Escape by fortunately drawing too high a number., either in the 140s or 170s.
His was a war of mixed fortunes. Rescued from a dinghy in the North Sea on about his 4th or 5th mission, only to be shot down again on his 8th. Either his parachute landing in a tree or the subsequent fall to the ground broke his ankle. After a spell in hospital he is sent to Stalag Luft III. Where rejoicing on finally being free from crutches he jumps down the hut steps only to find himself waist deep in sand, also having done his ankle no good.
Being summoned before Wing Commander Herbert Massey he was informed that initial there was no organisation in Stalag Luft III and the place was like a giant rabbit warren hence his unfortunate accident. However now things were organised and if he observed any odd behavior he was to take no notice.
Somewhere out on the web is a note on his dinghy practice and he mentioned as one of the regular female leads in Stalag Luft III's theatrical performances (http://tedbarris.com/).

[vascodegama]

I am sure that before hanging the spies Albert Pierrepoint would have checked the paperwork carefully-he would want all in order before claiming his fee!

[Whenurhappy]

Recently, I took my family around the Tower of London and there is a rather chilling tableau of the executiuon of a German spy during WWII, containing the diary of the CSM who organised the squad and set up the point of execution in the miniature range, in accordance with an order issued by the GOC. He makes it clear that the APM had to produce the Death Sentence and Execution Order and confirm that it was 'right and proper' before the firing party could go about their business.

With respect to separating the term 'German' from 'Nazi', much of this was an immediate post-war re-engineering. At the end of the war there was a tremendous purge of party officials and even low-level Gemeinde arbeiter had to undergo detailed scrutiny by the Allied Powers. When Russia (re)emerged as a threat, the US took the lead under then-General Eisenhower to both demonising the 'bad' SS (and Waffen SS) and the mythologising of the 'good' German Army, eventually paving the way for establishment of the Bundeswehr a few years later, officered by some characters with some rather dubious service histories. The scandal of files destroyed in recent years by the German BMD underlies this.

Occupation accounts from both official and private sources make it quite clear that the vast, vast majority of the German peoples were either Nazi party members or sympathisers. The US CIC reports until c 1949 do show frequent concerns about Fascist recidivisim. Certainly there were resistance groups but they were small and fragmented. The so-call von Stauffenberg Plot (actually devised by Generalleutenant Fellgiebel) was, at best, hair-brained, and was more concerned about Hitler's meddling in the conduct of the war, rather than his philosophy, per se.

Germans are our friends, and quite rightly so. The 3 post-war generations have been educated over and over again about 'that dark period of history' (as they might refer to it) but it is seen both embarrasing and irrelevent compared with the remarkable sucess of (west) Germany over the last 70 years. Although there may have been complicity at very high levels to rehabilitate former Nazi nomenklatura in nthe 50s - 70s, that is now history.

[Wensleydale]

"The Germans who carried out this execution were most likely members of the Nazi Party but they were still Germans!"


Not necessarily - many security personnel seconded from the SS were foreign conscripts - usually, but not exclusively - from Eastern Europe and the Balkans who chose to fight for the Germans rather than suffer the horrors of the prison camps. These unfortunates were often used to carry out the dirty work during WW2, and as the murders were carried out in Eastern Europe then it is possible that they carried out the deed. Unlike the film, the victims were sent out in small groups of about 3-4 to be shot during a "rest period" in their journey. The bodies were burned and their ashes scattered to hide all evidence of the crime. The orders were undoubtedly of German origin however, and the greater responsibility lies with them.

[skua]

A very interesting book was published a year or two back, The Human Game, which covered the post-war investigations and trials of those responsible for the murders. It explores the chain of command fully. See here HOME - Sky & Bullets (http://tinyurl.com/q25qvoa)

[Tankertrashnav]

A report of the 70th anniversary ceremony at the site of the camp is shown on here

BBC iPlayer - BBC News at Six: 24/03/2014 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03ynvhl/BBC_News_at_Six_24_03_2014/)

I'd be interested if anyone can identify the Scottish Air Commodore (?) who is seen speaking at around 26m 20 s on the report. Answer by PM if you prefer. Confused by the gold rank braid on his greatcoat - is this a recent thing?

[CoffmanStarter]

TTN ...

I believe the VSO is Air Officer Commanding No 1 Group Air Vice-Marshal Stuart D Atha DSO MA BSc RAF

There are some good pics on Twitter ... Some screen grabs to follow :ok:

[Wrathmonk]

Coffman

Correct.

Royal Air Force No 1 Group - Homepage (http://www.raf.mod.uk/no1group/)

TTN

Agree with the confusion. New one to me as well (unless it's an optical illusion).

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Wrathmonk :ok:

Image Credits : Matt Reid RAFC Media Team : Twitter Feed

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/BjgpDSDCcAAEefa_zps92b75432.jpg

AOC 1 Group with Air Commodore Charles Clarke OBE

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Bjgqm9qCQAEgcz6_zps9fb2a940.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/BjgrCVsCMAAKSxl_zps4426934d.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/BjgqTuFCUAAY-CU_zps0a988a79.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/BjgqGpTCYAE-XOG_zps43164c4e.jpg

[Vortex_Generator]

Why are those airmen dressed as soldiers? The brave men they are comemmorating went into battle wearing RAF blue uniforms.

[Wrathmonk]

The brave men they are commemorating went into battle wearing RAF blue uniforms

Probably because that is what they go into battle wearing these days in much the same way on Remembrance Sunday the various military chiefs do not lay wreaths wearing a variety of uniforms from conflicts over the past 'x' years.

Next you'll be having a go at the colour parties for not wearing fur lined boots, Irvin flying jackets and mae wests.....

[Archimedes]

V_G - they are wearing what AP1358 calls 'operational clothing', which is the nearest we have today to the War Service Dress that the RAF officers would have been wearing at the time of the escape.

Also, bearing in mind that the escapers included 2 FAA officers and Major Johnnie Dodge (who ended up in Sachsenhausen for his pains), the tri-service nature of the chosen dress seems somehow apposite for this occasion.

I thought it quite impressive that (thanks to the editing of the piece) Stu Atha managed to be simultaneously speaking at the microphone and sitting next to Air Cdre Clarke at one point in the news clip...

[Wrathmonk]

Stu Atha managed to be simultaneously speaking at the microphone and sitting next to Air Cdre Clarke

Well, he is, after all, a former Harrier pilot.....;)

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the ID on AVM Atha, chaps. I'd like to see a close-up of all that gold stuff on his epaulettes though as I can't quite work it out (as you know I'm a bit of a medal/badge nerd!)

I see Air Commodore Clarke is wearing the Bomber Command clasp on his 1939-45 Star - great to see somebody wearing this, as unfortunately the majority of those issued will be to the next of kin of those who did not live long enough to receive it.

[Haraka]

And the medals of the Sqn Ldr , including what looks in one shot like "mudguards" or para wings on her shoulder?

[awblain]

Let's not confuse the members of the Gestapo that murdered the escapees after they were recaptured with regular Germans.

What type of character volunteers to be a secret policeman for a brutal and repressive regime? I strongly suspect that the occurrence of such psychopaths is relatively uniform amongst nations, but that most just don't get the chance to play out their potential roles in most places.

I also doubt that such illegal acts against high-profile prisoners would be carried out by foreign help.

After a quick search, the trials that lead to the execution of 13 of the 18 accused in 1947, and the imprisonment of the other 5, seemed to be directed against men with traditional German names.

Stalag Luft III murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_III_murders)

[Wrathmonk]

And the medals of the Sqn Ldr , including what looks in one shot like "mudguards" or para wings on her shoulder?

I think said Sqn Ldr might be an Aussie.

[Haraka]

That crossed my mind as well ,but I'm not up-to-date with the latest RAF Women Officers' dress ( e.g.that hat).

[CoffmanStarter]

TTN ...

I think this might help ...

0703. Ceremonial Shoulder Boards. When in 1A SD, distinctive unranked ceremonial shoulder boards are worn by AVM and above and those officers assigned to the 1 Star posts of Comdt RAFC Cranwell, Air Officer Wales and Air Officer Scotland. When a greatcoat is worn with No 1A or No 5 SD, detachable gold ranked shoulder straps in Crombie material are worn.

AP1358 Chap 7-5/6 Section 0703 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/0F20E8C8_5056_A318_A886F0D8AD19DE17.pdf)

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps23f5cf73.jpg

Image Credit : MOD RAF AP1358

Evidently not a very good colour match/reproduction in the AP by the looks of it :8

[Pom Pax]

I think said Sqn Ldr might be an Aussie.
or a Kiwi.
Since 2010 the shoulder identifier says "ROYAL NEW ZEALAND AIR FORCE"
Is this all one line or two?

[Tankertrashnav]

Coffman - thanks for the picture - all new stuff to me :ok:

I think said Sqn Ldr might be an Aussie.

Phew - having failed to recognise one of her medal ribbons when I thought I could help Haraka out I was beginning to think my position as resident PPRuNe medal freak was in danger! Not really up to speed with Aussie (or NZ) medals. I presume she is the AVM's ADC or PSO.

[N2erk]

The Great Escape- the Reckoning is the documentary about the RAFP led by Frank McKenna who tracked down the Germans responsible.

[500N]

I had a look at her medals but can't quite make them out but they don't look "right" as far as I can see.

Does anyone have a link to the original page with the photo or
point me in the direction where I can get a range of them ?

[CoffmanStarter]

500N ... They are the best I could come up with from Twitter :(

I'm no expert ... but I think the Female Officer could be RNZAF (shoulder mudguards would appear to be two lines of embroidery as opposed to the one line as per the RAAF. Also her SD Cap Badge doesn't look RAAF to me)

As for the medals ...

NZDF Medals (http://medals.nzdf.mil.nz/category/c/index.html)

Still struggling :confused:

[Whenurhappy]

The Women RNZAF Officer is wearing the (NZ) Defence Service Medal on the right of her rack, so to speak. Sadly, they think it's OK to wear name badges on their No 3 Service Dress (ie RAF No 1s)

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks WurH :ok:

[Not a Crew Chief]

Couple of years ago I realised one of life's ambitions and visited Stalag Luft 3 and Colditz.
Started in Poznan and visited the War cemetery at the Citadel. Gravestones of 25 of the 50 are there though I believe Roger Bushell's Urn broke and his ashes are actually scattered at Zagan. Quite a number of graves in groups of 5 or 7 and obviously complete crews.
Then went to Zagan and the remains of the camp. There is a visitor centre about a mile away with hut and tower reconstructions as well as a tunnel section with Perspex roof you are able to try for yourself. The camp itself is eerily quiet and you cannot appreciate the size of the camp and huts unless you are there. The Watchtower is new since I was there. The memorial built by the prisoners is next to a cemetery for a Polish conflict of 18?? so has either been relocated or the camp is even bigger than I thought.
Then went to Colditz, and considering it was behind the Iron Curtain when the film was made it was like I knew every wall window and doorway. Following Pat Reid's footsteps was uncanny. I believe I was there just before they recreated the glider and flew it off the roof.


Cynicalint
You're right about what didn't happen but I always thought James Garner's scrounger was based on Sqn Ldr Jimmy James. And the motorbike was a Triumph, possibly Steve McQueen's own.

[sled dog]

Bike was a Triumph, but McQueen did not do the jump, Bud Ekins ( ? ) did.

[Blue Bottle]

The march gets a bit of bad press. We don't see marching troops in London in HiViz

UK soldiers in Poland on anniversary of Great Escape forced to wear high-vis gear | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2589722/You-vest-UK-soldiers-marching-Poland-mark-anniversary-Great-Escape-German-prison-camp-forced-wear-high-vis-gear-health-safety.html)

[MAINJAFAD]

Blue Bottle.

Nope, but we do tend to close the road to traffic first!!!!

[Tankertrashnav]

According to the Mail, its a picture of 50 RAF officers marching in high vis jackets.

Still, if every police constable, traffic warden and council clerk is an officer these days, I suppose SAC's etc can be officers too :rolleyes:

[CoffmanStarter]

TTN ...

Don't worry old chap ... the RAF Media Team responsible for the RAF Facebook Page made the same gaffe ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps0745db09.jpg

[Lima Juliet]

Surely this is the "Operational Clothing" that modern aircrew would be wearing - not multi-terrain pattern personal clothing system (MTP PCS) rubbish! :yuk:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/4222A8AF_5056_A318_A81FE212D68715C4.jpg

It saddens me that it seems acceptable to wear MTP PCS, but, wear a flying suit? You may as well have shagged the SWO's sister and shat on his mother's grave! :ugh:

With the loss of yet another FJ Sqn in a couple of days time, maybe it should be the Royal Ground Force!

LJ

[thing]

With the loss of yet another FJ Sqn in a couple of days time, maybe it should be the Royal Ground Force!

I was fluging at one of her Maj's toppest and secretest air bases today and apart from me who had buggered off for a nice sausage sandwich at Fenland there was one civ register King Air and a Tutor who looked lost and a bit frightened lurking around from a mob point of view. There was more civ traffic asking for Matz transits than there was service traffic. It's the end I tell you.

[November4]

Rob Davis on his site (http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gt_esc/) has much detail on the murders, who committed them along with the fates of the murderers following the RAF SIB investigation after the war.

[air pig]

Said female Squadron leader if in the RAF would be a PMRAFNS officer, with that hat.

[Not a Crew Chief]

Remarks about 'elf 'n' safety and troops/airmen wearing them always make me smile. As a brand new Apprentice in 1970 the first 6 in my room were designated outriders and issued with hi vis vests and lanterns (white marching at front, red for the rear) for our6 abreast march to workshops every day. That was 4 years before the Health and Safety at Work. etc Act 1974. 2 years I wore that vest. No respite when Senior Entry but was first everywhere.

[NutLoose]

We didn't have any of that at Halton on my course, we marched down the hill, I do remember one person taking a short cut avoiding the march and rushing out of the woods to cross the road he was hit by some officer in his car, I think he was killed..

We used to March across the main road where the traffic was stopped, but near the fire section there was an underpass for the Airframe guys.. We came past it one day to find the back end a fire engine sticking vertically out of the underpass, the handbrake having been accidentally left off. :p

[Bert Angel]

LJ: Not sure I'd want to march 100 miles in a flying suit & g pants, MTP is a much better choice.....


Thought the Daily Mail was a bit harsh on the wearing of hi-viz on busy public roads ('they'll be turning in their graves!'), seems sensible enough to me to avoid being run down by traffic.


Maybe for realism they should've made the 50 do it in suits & shoes whilst trying to evade a hunter force and see how many make the distance?