FTE Jerez Instructor Recruitment

[Stn120]

I am trying to find out some background information regarding FTE ground instructor positions.

I have just applied for a position I have seen advertised for ATPL ground instructors. I applied previously but received no reply and notice that they frequently advertise. I also hear that they have a fairly high turnover of staff (which is why I assume they advertise a lot) and wonder if there is a problem at FTE (salary, terms, workload, management?) or is it Spain?

Does anyone know what the terms are? Is accommodation provided initially? do they offer relocation? Is the work contract or permanent?

I would also like to hear first hand experience of anyone settling out in Spain as to current conditions (I see the news coverage about unemployment etc). What is taxation really like in Spain? I have done some research into moving there and think I have it covered but would like to hear from those who have or have not been employed there.

Thanks in advance.

Stn120

[S-Works]

FTE have a huge turn over of Instructors. You will be expected to relocate at you own expense and sort your of logistics in terms of accommodation etc. Pay rates are market average with them and Spain is quite cheap.

Taxation is quite high and you will be double taxed if you have assets outside of Spain which is driving a lot of the Brits home.

They struggle to fill the Ground Instructor roles as you really need to know your onions when it comes their expectations.

They also put people on 6 month trials and often terminate them at the end which is why the jobs are advertised so frequently. This can be a problem if you have moved out lock stock and barrel.

[Stn120]

Thanks Bose,

sounds like they want the best but are not willing to pay for it. If you have to pay to relocate yourself to another country and contend with double taxation, then I feel that it may not be worth it, I certainly cannot consider moving my family out for 6 months with the risk of having my contract ended at the end of that period and I'm not prepared to spend 6 months away from them.

I had heard that the Spanish wanted to know about all your assets elsewhere and include them in your Spanish tax bill. I also heard that they tax ex-pats at a higher rate.

Do you know if you FTE give you medical cover whilst you are there?

If the Spanish tax you, does that mean you have to become resident?

I'm not sure it maybe such a good deal as I might have initially thought.

[S-Works]

FTE give you nothing other than a wage. Spain has a health system which as an EU national you can use. You can then top up with private health care. You will see two those of hospital in Spain the NHS type and the Medicare type.

Yes the Spanish will tax you on world wide assets regardless if your domicile for the UK and its at the Spanish higher rate.

If you gave a family that you want to up and move its a very big risk if your contract does not pan out.

[Stn120]

Thanks Bose,

I think if they get back to me, I might decline as I have a few other irons in the fire along with my current job. Better the devil you know.

I've also been chatting to a couple of guys (one who used to work there and one who has a friend there), They both said similar, the ground school seems to be a bit dis-organised with contract instructors coming and going.

I also hear one person may be spoiling things for others and causing some of the resignations. I wonder how long FTE will be able to cope with such a throughput of instructors before the market dries up on them?

[earnest1]

I left Jerez a while ago so I can set the record straight.
Probation period is 3 months not 6 but it is true that several have not made the grade.
There is a small relocation allowance, not sure of the exact amount currently, and you have free accommodation on site for the first month.
You would need to become tax resident in Spain and be taxed like a national. That does include worldwide assets, property, savings etc. Penalties for not declaring are extremely draconian.
Cost of living dearer than UK in some things, cheaper in others.
Education for kids only in Spanish unless you pay for private and you won't find that locally.
You have full access to the national health system but a lot of people opt for private insurance.
In the last 2 years or so there has been an enormous turnover in staff, so most of the current are relatively new. Prior to that the workforce had been quite stable. As insinuated in a previous post one of the most cited reasons for leaving, including mine, centered around one individual.
Rumours I'm currently hearing suggest pay cuts for some staff, don't know any more than that.
Be pleased to answer any other questions you have.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

So when the market picks up:

Poor Pay and Conditions + Poor Reputation as an Employer + Shortage of Suitably Qualified Instructors = Big Problem

[earnest1]

Big problem already. I hear they can barely cover the subjects now.

[WASALOADIE]

I left there earlier this year and yes they were struggling to cover all the subjects. Relying on contract instructors. I had my concerns at the end of last year as to where things were going, with many experienced instructors leaving. The hierarchy were holding meetings to try and find out why, but doing very little to solve the problem. It certainly wasn't a very happy place to be.

Jerez is a beautiful area of Spain and great place to settle down. Spain can be cheap in certain areas but expensive in others. The Taxation is the biggest concern among the employees there which is why many prefer to work as contract instructors and pay tax in their own country.

Added to additional expenses such as either having your car registered in Spain or buying a car there (second hand cars are more expensive than the UK). Finding rental places to live after the first 4 weeks. Note: In that part of Spain, you have to pay agents fees of up to 1 months rent to the letting agents, along with 1 month rent deposit and 1 month in advance. Housing standards are not quite what you expect in the UK. No insulation so cold in the winter. Internet speeds are not what you get in the UK. Furnishings are fairly sparse and rooms are quite a bit smaller.

If the rumours of reduced pay scales is true, then I think it will be the thin edge of the wedge for those living there, who are already unhappy about the loss of salary sacrifice benefits on rents and car leasing which erodes their income by increasing the tax element.

The relocation allowance is not huge, just about enough to move a van full of personal effects from the UK to Jerez and there are limitations as to what you can justifiably use it for. Plus it is repayable if you leave within 2 years, it will only be paid after the probation period.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

It is interesting that their website has changed since the New Year.

Previously there were advertisements for flight instructors, ground instructors, MCC instructors and a variety of other posts.

Now the website is showing a requirement for only ATPL ground instructors.

Yet the above Posts suggest an even greater requirement for flight instructors - yet no advertisement.

Could it be that the company was embarrassed to be always showing a requirement for instructors on the one hand whilst on the other trying to court new clients?

It can't be good for new business if you are trying to sell a service, yet showing publicly that you are having difficulties providing that service.

General opinion seems to be that there will be a shortage of instructors able to deliver CPL/IR flying instruction under the EASA requirements.

So even if pay and conditions improve and the reputation or FTEJerez as an employer are restored, there will still be one part of the equation which is difficult to resolve.

Maybe outsourcing contract instructors is the way forward? However, it can be a short-term 'patch', rather than a long-term 'solution'.

[earnest1]

Just had a very long chat with a friend who still works there (not for much longer he says).
The current situation looks very bad.
The permanent flying instructors are about to be handed new contracts (pay cut), sign them or walk. A bunch of contractors are leaving in the next few days which is causing a bit of a panic in the flying department.
The ground school is limping along, several new guys are very inexperienced and teaching subjects they, themselves, are struggling to learn. The last three they took on aren't native English speakers - could be a problem. One of the "old hands" has returned but the feeling is that he is probably only around until something suitable comes up elsewhere. Other former ground instructors would be interested in returning but not while a certain person remains in post.
MCC/JOC rely almost wholly on outside contractors with only two full timers.
So far only flying instructors are having their contracts "re-negotiated" but the other departments feel it is only a matter of time.
As mentioned in another post the loss of tax relief on salary sacrifice has had a significant effect on disposable incomes.
All in all things look pretty dire.

[mad_jock]

I am not surprised they are not advertising certain things.

To be honest this thread has started smelling very similar to the cabair threads leading up to its final demise.

I can't see BA being to happy with what's being reported on here.

[S-Works]

I will probably try and catch up for a beer tonight or tomorrow with one of my Instructors who jumped ship and found the grass very wilted and brown to see what the latest scoop is.

[earnest1]

I regard my source as extremely reliable so I'm sure he will pretty much confirm what has already been said.

[MOSTAFA]

Are there non ATPL holder/held instructors there? How does that work. I'm guessing everybody must a license how do the SFIs exist without type ratings? Or do do they have them.

[S-Works]

Most of the Instructors are just normal CPL/IR FIs. Then there are a bunch of multi IR instructors. I also think there are a few retired ATPL guys down the MCC stuff.

[FANS]

It's a far cry from its BAe days. Is that Spanish bank still its main shareholder?

They will be going ballistic at this thread. Do they still have those warriors?

[earnest1]

Warriors are still there. How old are they now?
DA 42s replacing the old Senecas slowly, leased I believe.
As far as I know some investment bank took a whole load of shares a few years ago, doubtless they'll be screaming for their divvy each year.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

It is interesting that their website has changed since the New Year.

Previously there were advertisements for flight instructors, ground instructors, MCC instructors and a variety of other posts.

Now the website is showing a requirement for only ATPL ground instructors.

Talk of the devil - website changed overnight - jobs advertised for Flight Instructors again (although not updated - still JAR, not EASA?)

[bandie]

As someone who has been close to people working at FTE I would disagree with some of the comments posted. Although some people seem well informed there are also comments made without foundation.

FTE Ground School has had a reasonable change of instructors with some long-term ones leaving for various reasons: fear of tax rules being one of them, more of which below. But no two instructors have left for the same reasons, and some who have left have found that life isn't necessarily greener elsewhere. There is a 3 month probation period and after that period an instructor should be able to instruct to the required standard. Recently, unfortunately, some potential instructors did not come up to that standard, so were released.

There are some non-English instructors, but as the school is multi-national then this does not have a bearing as long as the instructor has a good degree of knowledge and can communicate effectively in English. It is a period of transition, but the overall atmosphere in the ground school seems a happy one.

In some respects living in Spain is much cheaper than the UK. If you go to Spain and expect to live the same as the UK (in a little England) and complain that things are not the same as the UK then maybe it is not the place for you. However if you accept that things are different and embrace the culture I’m sure that you will find that you will have a great life: you certainly use fewer heartbeats. The cost of renting a property is cheaper, the weekly shop is cheaper and the cost of utilities, although not necessarily cheaper than the UK, is lower as you do not need to pay for heating all year round and aircon is rarely necessary in summer.

The tax situation is the same as the UK – in the UK if you have assets overseas you are going to have to declare them – exactly the same in Spain. You are not double taxed as there are double taxation agreements between UK and Spain, but you will have to complete a tax return each year (just like the UK). In general, those Brits leaving Spain are the ones who do not want to declare assets to either UK or Spanish authorities, but by 2015 the requirement will be that all European countries will have their citizens declaring all overseas assets.

Jerez has a lot to offer – the climate, the surrounding area; with some beautiful places to visit and beaches nearby. If you want to put your children into school they can go to state school where it will not cost, or you can pay to send them to English/Spanish speaking schools.

My suggestion would be take the time to go and visit, then make an informed decision. Once there you may be pleasantly surprised.

[WASALOADIE]

First of all, Taxes are higher with no personal allowance.

Rents are higher than the UK, with an additional 1 months rent equivalent payable in advance to the rental agent, plus 1 month deposit and 1 month rent. Properties are smaller than in the UK, so if you're after something of equal standard then you pay more! Water bills are more expensive unless you happen to have a well in your garden. Most of the gas is bottled and this works out more expensive per unit, however you are likely to use less. Electricity works out about the same cost per unit as the UK.

Food works out on average about the same, local produce tends to be cheaper and other tends to be similar or slightly higher.

Cars (used) are more expensive than the UK. Petrol is slightly cheaper.

Eating out/entertaining is cheaper.

Jerez is a nice place with better climate, nice beaches etc within easy reach.

Agreed, it is well worth a visit to see what the place is like, but do your homework and go there with your eyes and ears open.

[Dengue_Dude]

I was approached recently and we arranged a group telephone 'interview'.

I insisted on them telling me the salary range and it wan't particularly good so binned the 'application'.

Seems not to be a happy place with lots of turmoil as well as turnover of staff.

I pity the students . . .

[SpannerInTheWerks]

I insisted on them telling me the salary range and it wan't particularly good so binned the 'application'.


That, I think, is the crux of the problem.

I understand that some, if not the majority, of sponsored cadets earn more than their instructors (?)

Whilst a comparison of salaries is perhaps irrelevant, human nature is such that the flight instructor (CPL/ATPL/FI/IRI/SEP/MEP/1000 hrs minimum) would expect to earn more than a cadet (NIL/0 hours).

It is usually the case in any other industry (including the airlines, of course) - senior/training staff earning more than junior/trainee employees.

A very good Post by 'bandie' - I imagine the location is very good, with many benefits to an instructor wishing to work in Spain (and a unique opportunity in so many ways).

The problem is that unless you are young and single or older (maybe with a pension to supplement your income) it will be difficult to manage if you are married (with a husband/wife who can't find employment of their own) or for a couple with children to support.

The salary may be adequate for some, and may be comparable with other commercial flight training schools, but as a stand alone package it appears to be poor for those instructors who may have other commitments and an inability to supplement their/their partner's income by other means.

[Capt Pit Bull]

First of all, Taxes are higher with no personal allowance.


Not true. When you start down there, there will be no allowances because you start on the Spanish equivalent of an emergency tax code, especially if you start in the second half of the year because you won't be there long enough that year to be a Spanish resident for tax purposes. But that all comes out in the wash when you submit your tax returns.

The real thing to be careful about is the Spanish wealth tax, which could be a pain for someone later in life who has substantial assets. This tax was put in place for a couple of years but I think it was taken away again at the start of this year once they realised they had caused a massive wealth exodus of expats.

Rents are higher than the UK, with an additional 1 months rent equivalent payable in advance to the rental agent, plus 1 month deposit and 1 month rent. Properties are smaller than in the UK, so if you're after something of equal standard then you pay more!

Property size is highly variable, depends on where you want to live and what section of the market you are in. But overall I would have to say this statement is resoundingly not true.

For example, I have a 5 bed house in the UK with a rental value of about £1200 per month. I found a large range of suitable properties within 20 minutes of the airport, in the range of 600 to 800 euros per month. The top end of these typically had the following, shared with a cluster of other houses in a secure perimeter: swimming pool, tennis court, children's play area. Many were next door to the golf course, 10 minutes away from a water park and 15-20 mins from the beaches.

It's a renters market down there.

It really boils down to where you are in life. If you have no children, young children or your children have left the nest it is very suitable. However, if you have senior school aged children then the schooling is an issue for obvious reasons.

The other major factor is if you have a partner, and what they do professionally. Employment prospects are vey poor, especially for non natives.

[Stn120]

CPB, your statement that wasaloadie's comments about rents is resoundingly untrue is itself not entirely true. I think you maybe attempting a bit of damage limitation.

I have a friend who lives in southern Spain and has been over to Jerez for me to do some research. A 5 bed house in the area for 600-800 Euro's? Dream On! either that or it is sub-standard. You will get a medium size 4 bed house for 6-800 Euro's but the area it is in (University) is less than desirable. A small 3 bed in a more desirable area will cost minimum 600 Euro's. He looked at the south of Jerez (golf area) and said the rental prices were on average 25% higher.

It is also true that the agent will take 1 months rent as his fee, normally paid by the vendor in the UK.

Standard of furnishings are not what you would expect in the UK either.

He is ex military (with a pension paid into a UK account) and the Spanish tax his earnings at a higher rate then he would be taxed in the UK. He as many people do, enjoys Spain for the climate. Due to high Spanish unemployment, his wife cannot get a job over there as they will not employ anyone if the position can be filled by a Spanish national who has the same skills. He does not have dependent children but tells me that Spanish main stream education is of a good standard, however children are expected to communicate in Spanish. Otherwise it would be best for them to go to an international school which will have to be paid for privately.

All in All, I think despite the climate, I think am equally as well off back here in the UK and do not consider the move to Jerez to be worth my while considering the small relocation payment on offer (which has to be paid back if you stay less than 2 years), all the additional aggravation of getting established there, not being able to relocate until probation has ended (uncertainty of being kept on), Wife giving up her job with only a small prospect of getting a job there and the current rumours of salary cuts (at the moment FI's I hear, but how long before GI's?). Consequently, I shall not be progressing with my application with FTE until I foresee the situation improving and shall stay where I am for now. My friend was looking at a position as a FI with FTE but has pulled the plug on that for now as he does not consider a move within Spain to be viable at the moment.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

100% INCREASE in pay MAY attract the right calibre staff;

Pay REDUCTION will jeopardise the operation;

The airline clients expect the best training for their selected cadets - and pay for it.

The marginal increase in cost per cadet of attracting flight instructors must be relatively small in comparison to the overall cost of training for both FTE Jerez and the client airline - particularly where a large degree of instruction is in the simulator with ex-airline sim instructors who, I understand, are not affected by this issue

Little expense is spared during airline type rating and line training. Why at the important ab initio stage?

[Reverserbucket]

his wife cannot get a job over there as they will not employ anyone if the position can be filled by a Spanish national who has the same skills.

How is this permitted under EU law? I work in the UK and am surrounded by Spanish colleagues as I was whilst working with a Portuguese organisation recently.

The airline clients expect the best training for their selected cadets - and pay for it.

I'm not convinced they do to be honest; irrespective of who pays for it, it's all about the bottom line.

Little expense is spared during airline type rating and line training. Why at the important ab initio stage?

Is the ab-initio stage seen as important these days? I've seen some particularly weak individuals who were nursed through type training by their 'sponsoring' company for various reasons. In these cases the training providers were encouraged to do their best to 'help' these candidates achieve a licence so that the TRTO could bring them up to speed later.

Of course, for each of these cases there were a large number of highly competent, capable and motivated individuals who achieved success through sheer effort and determination.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Is the ab-initio stage seen as important these days?

Below is a comment made in connection with the AF447 accident:

Despite multiple stall warnings, including one that lasted continuously for 54 seconds, neither of the copilots acknowledged them nor the appearance of stall buffet.

As we all know, the essence of flying training is a series of building blocks of knowledge and experience - one exercise practised and mastered before progression to the next.

Power + Attitude = Performance

Ex 10 - Recognition of the stall - buffet etc ...

All basic stuff.

I'm not saying, in this over simplistic view, that the AF447 accident would have necessarily been prevented, but basic flying skills were in question.

Is the ab-initio stage seen as important these days?

I agree, it probably isn't to the extent it should be with the whole of modular commercial flight training becoming a 'sausage factory' of cadets trained through organisations with an eye, as you say, on the bottom line.

However, the cost is sometimes incalculable.

Edit:

Interesting comment from another Thread entitled: 'Flight International "Pilots must go back to basics"'

Having owned flight schools and retired from the "heavy metal" sixteen years ago, and having flown both Boeing and Airbus products along with the latest corporate tin, the decline in basic piloting skills is disturbing to say the least, there are good reasons the great mechant ships masters train in little sail boats to obtain the knowledge in ship handling required when the "magic" fails. Of one thing Im sure, unless the industry comes up with a solution ,perfectly serviceable aircraft, on perfect flying days, will continue to crash into perfectly flat ground.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Stn120

CPB, your statement that wasaloadie's comments about rents is resoundingly untrue is itself not entirely true. I think you maybe attempting a bit of damage limitation.

I have a friend who lives in southern Spain and has been over to Jerez for me to do some research. A 5 bed house in the area for 600-800 Euro's? Dream On! either that or it is sub-standard. You will get a medium size 4 bed house for 6-800 Euro's but the area it is in (University) is less than desirable. A small 3 bed in a more desirable area will cost minimum 600 Euro's. He looked at the south of Jerez (golf area) and said the rental prices were on average 25% higher.

It is also true that the agent will take 1 months rent as his fee, normally paid by the vendor in the UK.

I could perhaps have been more precise with my quotes.

For clarification, I do not dispute the agents fee arrangement which is a bit cheeky IMHO! But the crux of the matter is the general price of rental property. Take a property in Jerez, convert its rental into pounds, search for the same on a UK rental website, and you'll be lucky to find anything comparable unless in a really run down area.

I could give some examples of mid range places we looked at, but tbh lets cut to the chase and look at the top end. We viewed several similar properties near the golf course at around the 800 euro mark. Admittedly, only 4 beds, but fitted out basements are common, so far superior to our uk property in terms of floor area for non bedroom living space; enough room for an office and a home cinema. Plus the pool. Plus in a secure gated area. Plus a tennis court. 800 euros, that's me, in the property, talking face to face with the Agent. Not 'a mate did some looking around'. But even if it was 1000 eu, say 900 sterling, try and rent the equivalent anywhere in the UK!

The simple truth is, as I originally stated, it is a renter's market down there. Spanish property websites are pretty poor, and the English level of the Agents is very poor, but once you cut behind that there are some great places to live at very reasonable prices.

There are serious issues to be considered in relocating to Spain (as I mentioned taxation, spousal employment and schooling) but the rental market is not one of them IMHO.

These are general statements about Spain based on my experiences down there and would apply to anyone thinking of relocating for any reason. Thus I'm somewhat bemused by your post title and insinuation.

Cpb

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Capt Pit Bull

I agree with you - €700 - €800 is correct for reasonable rental property (excluding utilities etc).

The problem is that on the salary offered for a new instructor it will be difficult to survive unless you have additional income.

Even with the tax advantages of integrating the rental cost with salary leaves scant free income to pay for those necessities of life and to enjoy a 'professional' standard of living, car and the like. The figures simply don't add up.

Back to my original comments - it's a job for a single, young instructor or for a semi-retired airline pilot with a pension to rely on.

For those in the middle, difficult - for those with a family nigh impossible.

[Mach1.1]

I used to work at FTE but I am better now, so I feel qualified to update some of you on both FTE and life in Spain.


First FTE. There is an currently on-going "consultation" between the flying instructors and senior management about a proposed pay cut to be imposed and salary to be performance related. The management have so far pretty well rejected all the proposals put forward by the instructors and seem hell bent on forcing a "take it or leave it" solution. Those who choose not to accept the terms will be made redundant with a 20 day severance pay. The pay cuts and revised terms are due to the management's perception that the instructors are not working hard enough. The fact that quite often the brand new aircraft are unserviceable, that there are far too many students as a result of managements refusal to listen to the advice of those managers who knew about flying training, that the weather is not always as good as you would like to think in Spain, that there are often delays in getting the aircraft refuelled and, as if that were not enough, that flight training takes place in a part of the world with the world's most inefficient and lazy ATC environment is not accepted by the management who insist on blaming the instructors. Needless to say, morale is at rock bottom and is not helped by the fact that the flight management team by and large are ineffective.


Spain. Living there is not necessarily the panacea that some would lie to believe. In some respects the cost of living is cheaper than in the UK but that is outweighed by the fact that you pay tax on ALL your income - there is no tax-free allowance like there is in the UK. The days when it was possible to offset the rent and car leasing against tax are now over. In addition there is the spectre of having to declare all overseas income (Form 720, penalty of 10000 euros for not doing so or for a wrong declaration) with the very real possibility of the Spanish Inland Revenue making a claim on UK income/investments/property irrespective of whether or not you have already paid tax on it in the UK has already driven many expats out of the country.


The summer weather can be oppressively hot and unless you enjoy flying an un-airconditioned aircraft in temperatures in the mid to high 30s summer is not that much fun. Again, unless you can get by without seeing rain for four or five months of the year summer has its drawbacks.


The Spanish themselves are nocturnal and noisy and genetically engineered to be totally selfish. Most restaurants don't even bother to open till around 2100 so there is not much point in planning to go out for an early meal unless you like MacDonalds or Burger King.


Initially I enjoyed my time at Jerez but these days the quality of life, both at work and at home, plus the financial "rewards" make it a place to think very carefully about before signing any dotted lines.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

bose-x:

1.

I will probably try and catch up for a beer tonight or tomorrow with one of my Instructors who jumped ship and found the grass very wilted and brown to see what the latest scoop is.

and ... ? (I hope you haven't been 'gagged');

2.

Is your flight school still looking for a FI + IRI + CRI ?

If so, is this due to an absolute shortage of suitably qualified instructors, or are you finding issues similar to those allegedly being experienced by FTEJerez?

[chrisbl]

The problem with ATC (Seville Approach) and their reluctance to handle more than 1 IFR training flight at a time is very frustrating especially at an airfield that has more training traffic than CAT.


Going to Spain also depends on who you are what stage you are in your life and career(s) and your personal motivations. It will suit some, it will not suit everyone. Jobs tend to have common terms and conditions and they either work for you or they don't.

[Mach1.1]

B61, Yes I am referring to the DA42s. They are brand new so have not yet reached an age whereby engine and gearbox problems raise their ugly heads. Moreover, they have the new engines so are unlikely to suffer the same problems as the Thielert ones did. However, the savings in fuel costs are, as you said, far outweighed by the cost of getting them refueled (30 Euros per aircraft each time plus the cost of the fuel) plus the need to refuel them after nearly every flight.


The DA 42 is a nice aircraft to fly but has far too many limitations and, in some ways is a victim of its own fuel efficiency. Were you to get airborne at FTE at max AUW you would have to fly for nearly 2.5 hours to get down to max landing weight. This means limiting the fuel uplift hence the need to top up after most flights. The C of G is a long way forward which has its own limitations, especially in icing conditions. With the deicing fluid tank full the C of G moves a long way forward (well in excess of the max permitted in the vast majority of cases). However, when flying in known or forecast icing conditions, the maximum permitted forward C of G moves a fair bit to the rear!!! De-icing fluid is not cheap and could well push the operating cost up in winter in addition to the cost of fluid used in the summer months just to keep the system primed.


The Senecas are expensive to run but they do at least offer the flexibility of being able to get airborne with full fuel and three on board. With the DA42 limitations it is almost impossible to have more than two people on board.

[mad_jock]

Sounds like they would be better moving back to Prestwick.

[pablo]

I don't know what the actual situation is in this regard, but I doubt very much AENA will grant an authorisation to a small company to have their own tank of fuel, let alone allow a small fuel truck or a towable tank wander around the airport.

"Spanish practice" :E
Funny and not funny at the same time.

[S-Works]

This is a lack of communication when it comes to fuel. If you call out the fuel truck they charge €30 to come out.

We however leave a tag of the prop asking for fuel whenever it is passing and for this there is no charge.

Whilst I realise that FTE are an airline training school, they may also do better to try and be a bit more flexible and realise they are just operating spam cans not airliners.

They are making a rod for their backs with the treatment of instructors, a mass exodus is coming and it's going to cripple them.

Spain is a good place for single Instructors who can afford to live on the bread line. It is not a family place and the Spanish are shooting themselves in the foot trying to raise cash from the expats.

I would not work out their were it not for the fact that my time is split between teaching and line flying and I am on the payroll in the UK.

[Mach1.1]

bose-x I think I know who you work for when you are in Spain. The 30 Euros is a call out fee,however, it is charged per aircraft, not per call out. My understanding is that in order to be allowed to own and operate a refueling truck it is necessary to have an AOC. In FTE's case it would be complicated by the need to have two vehicles - one for Avgas and the other for Jet A1.

[S-Works]

The 30 Euros is a call out fee,however, it is charged per aircraft, not per call out. My understanding is that in order to be allowed to own and operate a refueling truck it is necessary to have an AOC. In FTE's case it would be complicated by the need to have two vehicles - one for Avgas and the other for Jet A1.

I know its per aircraft, hence the reason that we leave the refuel tag on the prop. Whenever the fueler is passing, he sees the tag and fills the aircraft. It is rare for us to ever need to call out the fueler to the piston aircraft. Saves a fortune in callout fees. If FTE were smart they could reduce the bill by adopting the same system.

When I need the Dornier filling with Jet A1 then I call them out unless I happen to be stood on the pan when he is passing from filling one of the 42's. But on a couple of tons of fuel €30 gets lost in the bill!! We do however have the same tag for it which I use if I have more time for refuel.

It is not an AOC that is needed for the fuel truck it is however an airside operators certificate for a fuel truck that is needed. You are right there is no chance that any of the based operators would be allowed there own installation. The Spanish are congenitally lazy but they are not stupid.

[Give me strength]

bose X


The only reason the refueller passes your aircraft is that he is on way to FTE !!


But that is not the major problem for FTE at present, I suspect.


Too little resource to get task done brought about by heavy handed senior management , probably out weights tardiness of refueller.

[pablo]

The Spanish are congenitally lazy but they are not stupid.

whoa whoa whoa!
Slow it down young man.

There's a really thin line between disrespect and racism, I just wanted to give a heads up before someone crosses it.

And that kind of ideas are usually a byproduct of a small mentality.

[S-Works]

Nothing racist and referring to a group of people as lazy. Did I touch a raw nerve?
:p

In my experience it is very difficult to motivate the vast majority of the Spanish to do anything. They are a culture that is resistant to change and inflexible. The laziness is evident everywhere.

I will however temper that comment with the fact that we employ a number of Spanish pilots who are quite the opposite, hard working loyal and reliable. But my experience over the years in Spain is of the former.... ;)

And I will have you know my mentality is a colossus..... :p:p:p

[pablo]

Did I touch a raw nerve?

No raw nerves touched, it's just that it's boring to hear and read the same old anthem. Very much like black people don't like it when they hear "niggers are lazy" :eek: it's equally unpleasant to hear/read "Spaniards are congenitally lazy".

They are a culture that is resistant to change and inflexible.
Says someone that comes from a country reluctant to use the metric system and have the driving wheel in the right hand side. :E :}

[cessna310]

Hi guys,

Can anyone tell us how much FI IRI get paid at FTE? It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Regards,

[S-Works]

Says someone that comes from a country reluctant to use the metric system and have the driving wheel in the right hand side.

Some would say our reluctance for change is more a sign of caution. Probably the reason why our country did not need billions in bailouts from our neighbours after having spent billions of EU funding on wasted projects...... :p:p:p

I would also caution you against the use of the 'N' word, a very politically incorrect term to use to argue your point.....

[Give me strength]

C 310


How much is paid very much depends on the outcome of 'talks' between Senior Management and the current group of FIs.


Believe if Senior Management win about a third less than present. Although there would be a productivity addition.


I am at a loss as to why this Senior management think these FI s are not working hard enough given the problems the FIs have faced just to get job done over last several years.This is despite no facilitation from the Senior managers.


BTW FTE are still looking for FIs but are not taking them out to Jerez for interview at present. Wonder why?


Should be very interesting around end of May....

[Mach1.1]

It's all about to change (for the worse)

[mad_jock]

Its the same anthem because it's true amongst the majority. You can scream political correctness all you like but compared to the average they are idle lazy any any other word you like when compared to the average worker In europe what ever thier colour or lingo they speak.

Its not being racist it's just a matter of fact.

[stevef]

Well, I've worked in Spain before, including for FTE, and I'd dispute that they're lazy. They've got a different attitude, it's true, but they're not bone idle.
One adjusts to the climate.
Now, if you were to talk about Africa, I wouldn't put up much of an argument. :}

[cessna310]

Is it over €30000/year or less?

[earnest1]

Post deleted - request from a friend.

[earnest1]

By the way,
Some of the Spanish are honest and hard working some are corrupt and lazy
thieves. Any different to Uk?

[dera]

Sounds like FTE Jerez is the Europe's version of FlyEASA...

[mad_jock]

nah its not like that at all.

They were originally set up by people that knew aviation and what they were doing.

After a change to the company philosophy they pulled out as much as they could from the civilian market.

Then on paper the training market looked pretty lucrative when they got rid of it. Now I suspect short term accountancy has left them with a legacy which may or may not prove to be fatal with the historic and current situation.

Flyeasa was a completely different kettle of fish. It was set up by a character who ran it the way he wanted when he had the ability to run it a different way and still make a tidy profit.

There is a huge over capacity in the training market. How the market evolves nobody knows. But it will be the consumers that will suffer at some point as they have in the past numerous times before.

Fact is getting a 5% return on your investment in aviation is good normally its 1-2% this is not the numbers that a capital investment company likes to hear.

The only people who make real money on an airport is the fuel suppliers. And that is usually a closed market for that very reason.

[Mach1.1]

After BAE Systems pulled out the company was taken over by a couple of Australians who knew the flying business and a Spanish accountant. The drive and personality of the two Aussies made FTE a happy place to work despite the uncertainties of the recession. Unfortunately both for the company and the staff, the two guys decided to retire after about five or six years and the accountant became CEO. Not entirely surprisingly he knew nothing about the flying business (still doesn't) and his every move is based purely on commercial grounds. OK, so that is what he is there to do, but in so doing, and the way he has done it, he has destroyed morale at all levels and ripped the heart out of what was once a great place to work.


At a time when instructors are being asked, (make that told) to take a pay cut there are several projects that have happened around the campus over the last year or so which are purely of a cosmetic nature and often not to everybody's taste. It is galling to the revenue earners to see a senior manager drive a large four wheel drive vehicle the 200 or so yards from his office to the canteen, especially when it is a company car and petrol is paid for by the company.


I wish the new HoT luck (he will need it because the CEO only wants "yes" men) and the last full time HoT resigned because he was not listened to or allowed to get on with things. As earnest1 so rightly says, the CFI is inefficient and wants to please all of the people all of the time with the result that there are some instructors who are allowed to get away with effectively working on their own terms. The Deputy CFI has quit (he resigned some while ago due to not getting any backing but was persuaded to continue in post).


All in all, a sad drop from grace for what was once one of the top FTOs. They are recruiting flying staff but this may well be a hedge for when a number of the present instructors decide to leave. If any applicants are reading this forum I would certainly suggest that they take earnest1's advice about being wary of this operation.

[mad_jock]

they really are screwed if that is the case that a none flying Accountant is calling the shots.

They will just end up spending thousands to save 10 euro's

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Oh dear......there is another school on the south coast of England that is run by a non pilot accountant. It will be interesting to see in a few months/years whether they are still there.

[mad_jock]

The AOG stores will be run down to unworkable levels.

The gingers will get an over time ban.

Most mornings will be lost to getting previous days snags fixed by robbing from tech aircraft so the fleet will always have aircraft off line.

Scheduled maint will be delayed and outside predicted time scales due to the gingers being on the ramp all morning trying to get something into the air.

this will mean there will be more aircraft lost as well as the Christmas tree spares aircraft.

The bill for getting them running will run into 100's of thousands. So will be delayed. The aircraft will start to rot which will just cost even more money to fix.

The instructors will be sitting on their backsides most mornings due to tech aircraft and fighting over the working ones.

On paper there productivity will be shot to hell. But their will be bugger all they can do about it.

And the account will refuse to understand that it takes 3 times as much work and cost to rob a spare from an aircraft than it does to use a new part straight from stores.

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Sad but true MJ and B61

[Give me strength]

Quote :


" they really are screwed if that is the case that a none flying Accountant is calling the shots.

They will just end up spending thousands to save 10 euro's "


That is the CEO at FTE for you and they are!


It is never his fault that the FI cannot get job done .....eg


1)Set up ATC school ....local ATC now very unhelpful !
2) Reduce number of engineer & over time .........less available aircraft
3) Reduce number of FNPT2s......
4) Reduce number of twins ......
5) Long delays for aircraft / slots ...
6) etc
So people are left waiting around so ages.. But he just believes the FIs are not working hard enough! Or is he just trying another cost cutting exercise


There is only one GI left from 4years ago every one left since new CEO arrived
Now on third permanent H of T since new CEO


It was a great place to train and work but now :mad:


Result of Management consultation is due very soon , so C310 the answer to your question will be known then.

[porridge]

IMHO The problems with these integrated schools are manifold and many. However, these are not unique to the Flight Training Industry at the entry level
1. In the first place their overheads are high as regulators require numerous mandatory post holders and these highly paid persons do little else to contribute to the productivity of the business because of the reluctance of large organisations to multi-skill personnel as many jobs could be done in conjunction with others. Examples are Senior Personnel being reluctant to sully their hands at the coal face. I recall at another well known ATO some years ago that while the primary Instructors were working hard, one individual in “standards” managed only to fly 40 hours in 12 months! It was common knowledge that his skills at computer games were improved at the expense of a good salary and the rest of the work force. There are these kinds of people who seem adept at avoiding real work are common to all organisations and this consequently leads to resentment among the core labour force.
2. Accountants with little experience or knowledge of the core business of the enterprise make poor CEO’s as they lack the vision to move the company forward and innovate (think about people like Steve Jobs who was not an accountant). I would also say that in the main pilots do not make good CEO’s either (perhaps with the exception of people like Walsh of BA). Ideally a mix of good leadership skills, clear understanding of the core business with vision whilst maintaining a keen eye on the bottom line is essential in any industry. It is little wonder that in Germany that CEO’s are Engineers and Professionals, not accountants!
3. Unfortunately these large ATO’s seem to think they can enhance their image by the amount and value of executive company cars and associated perks. Large and well paid Marketing Departments and a good sprinkling of exotically named executives like: “Director of Strategic BS”, “Director of Media Spin” seem de rigueur in today’s industry.
4. The cost of operating some of these ATO’s is such that the temptation is for companies to engage in Ponzi type practices as was seen by likes of the late unlamented Scabair. Like those who get suckered in by Ponzi schemes are they are same poor suckers and their parents who will sacrifice hard earned cash for a dream that may not be matched by reality in the market place of Aviation jobs. It is little wonder that only a small proportion of “wannabees” ever succeed to making a lifetime, well-paid, success in an aviation career. The whole ethos of these integrated ATO’s is based on a significant through-put of people to fund the operation whilst providing poor quality training and education. Only those who are well-connected or exceptionally dedicated and driven will gain subsequent employment and rewards that bear a relation to the cost outlay. It is little wonder that training Captains are lamenting the poor quality of knowledge and piloting skills by persons being trained by these much vaunted ATO’s. Even in my own experience I have come across such people, have not made the cut for an Airline job come to become FI’s where the lack of knowledge, situational awareness and fundamental understanding is such that I have seen better in humble PPL’s.
In summary all these ATO’s will have improve productivity and provide a better education instead of the apparent common denominator to just churn out flight crew fodder for maximum profit at the lowest cost. If they do not they will not survive in the modern world. Or perhaps I am wrong, but any organisation that is striving to do this properly has a better chance of surviving than those who seem to exist due to a previous brand name and marketing hype and continuous takeover’s by large corporate conglomerates. Where this leaves FTE I cannot comment, but the adage “adapt or die” has serious implication for all of them.

[mad_jock]

The business model also seems to be set up in alot of places to take into account a military pension also being paid.

It seems to me there just are not the same number of these chaps coming into the industry.

Also as well I think the MPL was a attempt to break away from the dependence on light aircraft. But the requirement for it to be taken in conjunction with an airline has screwed things up somewhat as the schools need 2-3 times more fresh meat through the door than there are jobs available. And as there isn't enough market for it they are stuck with the expensive twins.

[Mach1.1]

I agree with most of the comments porridge made with the exception of number 4. Despite the efforts (or lack of) on the part of management, the quality of training has not slipped at FTE and the overall standard of graduates is as good as it ever was. Of course there will be exceptions but fortunately, despite the turnover in staff and their understandable resentment of the way they are being treated, in general it has not affected training standards.

[mad_jock]

It was a general comment.

And to be honest they are not the same as 10 years go and this is the same for Oxford as well. The rot set in for them when they started the sep training in the states and dropped further when they started using in house IR examiners.

Its the industry problem of training for test with the assumption that they are going to an EFIS automated cockpit. Also the using of persudo airline pish when flying SEP and light twin. This then nuggets them up when they have to be able to fly something that requires some hand foot skills with PIC skills to boot.

A DME arc procedure is not some mythical entity which never occurs. They should be able to fly one without a FMC with circular nav.

[porridge]

In response to Mach 1.1 comment on my Point 4, I was not referring to FTE. I trained 2 FTE grads as FI’s a couple of years back an there were a cut above in terms of their knowledge compared with 2 from an ATO who does training in a sunny, dry place in the US. At least they knew their way around UK airspace or cottoned on to it quicker that the aforementioned other two.
However, very recently I took on board a grad from the other place for an FI rating and his fundamental basic PPL knowledge was appalling. His general handling was adequate but his situation awareness and basic operating in UK VFR was completely lacking. When he remarked that all the flying he had done in the UK was IR; I asked him some questions about choosing alternates and LVP’s and he hadn’t a clue. Sic: “the Alternates on the IR Flight Plans are standard and filed by Ops”!
I suggested, in concurrence with our HoT, that he would be better served by getting to grips with basic PPL knowledge and some currency on VFR flying in the UK before returning to the course. When he later went to another place to do his FIC course the FIC Instructor there came to the same conclusions as I did.
Hence my generic comments about the general trend of Integrated ATO towards lowered standards not specifically FTE.

[Mach1.1]

Point taken porridge and I agree with you and mad_jock about students being taught to pass a test as opposed to being taught how to fly.

[Stn120]

I see FTE are recruiting for Flight Instructors and Ground Instructors again. It must cost them more in advertising and HR set up costs than some of the salaries per year.

I guess after what has been said before, some are on the move or have already left.

Rest assured, after what has been mentioned previously, I shall not be re-applying.

The sand pit, whilst not being everyone's taste does pay better and I am being looked after and feel I'm wanted.

Good luck to all future potential instructors in Jerez.

[earnest1]

Had a couple of days in Jerez a few weeks ago for the Feria (annual week long booze up). Caught up with a few old friends. Mood was very sombre, as expected, a lot of guys refusing to sign the new contracts and intending to leave but worried they won't get a redundancy pay off.
GI's leaving faster than they can be replaced.
Quality of training must be suffering.
Shame - used to be a great place.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Very sad to read this thread. I was a flying instructor there during the set up and first year of operation in 2001. I had 2 student who needed 2 training events per day and I had two Warriors. There were more aircraft than students most days.

Four full time engineers and a really well run Ops department, spare briefing rooms aplenty and an atmosphere not dissimilar to a UAS. Strong leadership, high morale and plenty of banter. It was a great place to be an instructor or a student.


WWW

[Sam Dodger]

Earnest 1 Check your pms

[earnest1]

replied Sam.

[frf]

Hi all,

One year later now, is FTE Jerez still a not advisable place to work ?

[Capt Pit Bull]

IMHO quite a lot of changes for the better. But then again I was happy enough last year.... Which means I must have had an agenda. Or something like that!

IMHO if considering going to FTE the issues are more about moving to Spain versus your personal circumstances (tax, schooling, spouse employment) than FTE itself.

Pb

[nick14]

A little birdie tells me that there may be a change of owner coming soon, possible sale of the school?

[Buttie Box]

Scrolling through various articles, this 53-year old pilot wishing, no, going to return to aviation stumbled across the possibility of becoming a ground instructor in Jerez. Wife fluent Spanish - I can order beer, fries and hookers - kids left home, mortgage almost paid off. There's me thinking about moving to Spain for a few years.

Then stumbled across this old thread. Anyone any updates or have you all moved on?

All the best

BB

[S-Works]

FTE are always recruiting as they can't hold onto instructors......

I am recruiting for ME/IR/CPL Instructors for Jerez......

[hueyracer]

FTE are always recruiting as they can't hold onto instructors......

I am recruiting for ME/IR/CPL Instructors for Jerez......

Are you interested in a Helicopter Instructor/Examiner ME/IR?

[KayPam]

If the integrated and mpl students skills are so low, why do airline recruit them over modular students ?

I know that recruiters generally dont care about technical skills, but it should only be to a certain extent..

[UAV689]

I hear nearly everyday from line training captains I work with that they generally find modular guys preferable to integrated! Reasons they give are greater ability to think for themselves (they have often had jobs before and are more mature) hand in hand with maturity the ability to hold a conversation, and they say they often have a higher situational awareness and better airmanship due to not being spoon fed. I believe the integrated product is preferred by hr, as it's easy. Hr depts are very lazy world wide now, and always prefer to use agency's in whatever industry, and the integrated product with the shiney marketing leaflets fool everyone.

[KayPam]

I hear nearly everyday from line training captains I work with that they generally find modular guys preferable to integrated! Reasons they give are greater ability to think for themselves (they have often had jobs before and are more mature) hand in hand with maturity the ability to hold a conversation, and they say they often have a higher situational awareness and better airmanship due to not being spoon fed. I believe the integrated product is preferred by hr, as it's easy. Hr depts are very lazy world wide now, and always prefer to use agency's in whatever industry, and the integrated product with the shiney marketing leaflets fool everyone.
I would like to agree with this post (I would like to confirm both aspects for myself)
The other aspect is that the modular training is longer (even if you could do almost as fast as integrated) so simply the person has been flying longer !

Even though I've seen it in at least two different fields, I'm still amazed at the importance that HR people give to recruiting people based on anything BUT their technical/real ability for the job.

However, I've come to the conclusion that, as of today, being recruited will always be more challenging than being up to the task after being recruited...
So in the end, since we only want to be recruited, we should choose integrated training...

Do you reckon one modular student could save the date by training at a CTC/OAA/FTE ?
Paying the extra price for the extra reputation that HR seems to need.

[Deleteflight]

hello everyone!!! I hope you have a nice day... just for info someone Know more o less how is the income that you aspect to earn at FTE today (or in the past) for a FI IRI CRI???
Thanks in advance for the info