MERGED: Skydivers Feared Dead In Light Plane Crash Caboolture

[C206driver]

Reports of a crash this morning.
Unsure of any more details...

"A LIGHT plane has crashed at Caboolture airfield, north of Brisbane, this morning.

There are reports at least one person was onboard.

Their injuries are unknown.

It is believed the aircraft was on fire.

The plane was on the runway when the crash happened around 11.30am."

[Cleared Visual]

"There are reports at least one person was onboard". :ugh:

I would certainly hope so if it was airborne!
I read up to five onboard in another report. Don't know what kind of aircraft. Hoping its not as bad as it looks, photo on news.com

[belly tank]

Terrible news:(

The photo is self explanitory. RIP

No Cookies | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/plane-crashes-at-caboolture-airfield/story-fnihsrf2-1226861972646)

[onetrack]

Doesn't look good. Reports are the 5 POB were heading out to skydive.

[Space Jet]

As many as six people are feared dead after a light plane was incinerated on take-off at Caboolture Airfield, north of Brisbane.

The plane, used for skydiving, took off before veering left, crashing and bursting into flames. Bryan Carpenter, who witnessed Saturday's crash, said high-octane fuel burned the plane within a minute.

He said the Cessna 206 carried between five and six people on its skydiving flights. Police have not released the names of the people on board or the name of the skydiving company.

Mr Carpenter, a flight trainer at Caboolture for 14 years, said it looked to be the worst crash in his time there. Police have closed the airport while they investigate the crash

Skydivers feared dead in light plane crash (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2014/03/22/13/34/plane-crashes-in-queensland)

[tmpffisch]

Terribly sad.

Thread is running at http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/536505-plane-crash-ycab-22-03-14-a.html

[meggo]

C206. Five/six (conflicting reports) on board. No survivors reported via Sky News.

[Jimpet]

If one could speculate so early on the causative factors in this crash a C of G problem would be high on the list.

[VH-XXX]

Not a good run you guys are having up at Caboolture, very sad yet again.

[Nadsy]

Very sad for all concerned. Thoughts go out to the family, friends and staff.

P.S.

I would certainly hope so if it was airborne!

There have been known incorrectly executed manual prop starts resulting in an airborne plane crashing with no one on board... wish this was one of them ;-(

[fortuneferal]

There was this gem quoted in the news.com.au story:

“There are no survivors. I can’t confirm how many people were on board, but there was at least one, otherwise it wouldn’t have been taking off, ” he said."

:confused:

[Draggertail]

FlightAware reports aircraft was VH-FRT

[I spy]

Or seat pin failing...........?

Very sad, anyway you look at it...:uhoh:

[Horatio Leafblower]

The old saw "Who would want to jump out of a perfectly good aeroplane?" is generally only uttered by people who have never flown a skydive aeroplane. :ugh:

[onetrack]

Safety officer at YCAB is reported as witnessing the takeoff and the crash.
He reported hearing two bangs, one just after the aircraft became airborne, and the second as it hit the ground. EFATO?
Witness refused to offer up speculation as to the cause of the crash, saying "mechanical failure" was possibly likely. :(

[TBM-Legend]

I sadly witnessed this accident and was one of the first on the scene...

As stated the investigators will tell the story so let's not speculate. A young pilot in the C206 with two instructor jumpers and two others. There was no hope for them.

May they rest in peace.

[Weheka]

If one could speculate so early on the causative factors in this crash a C of G problem would be high on the list.

Would you mind telling us in some detail as to why you are speculating that a C of G problem would be high on the list as a causative factor?
Do you have experience operating the 206 in the skydive (or other) roles?

RIP the guys and girl.

[ViPER_81]

I fly out of caboolture regurlarly, anyone know if it was the usual Female jump pilot?

[roundsounds]

Weheka-
"Would you mind telling us in some detail as to why you are speculating that a C of G problem would be high on the list as a causative factor?
Do you have experience operating the 206 in the skydive (or other) roles?"

Have done a reasonable amount of time in skydive ops. C of G isn't too much of an issue in a 206. What can catch you out is not resetting the elevator trim following a landing with 1 up. The CG is near the forward limit 1 up requiring as much as full "Nose Up" trim for landing. If not reset before takeoff with a full load the control loads are very high - I know from first hand experience!

[Jabawocky]

Or seat pin failing...........?

Very sad, anyway you look at it...

I think, from what I know, this is exactly what the ATSB should look at first. Will save a lot of time and trouble.

Nothing more to say, so you can read between the lines.

So sad and likely to be so avoidable.

I did know the pilot as did a few pruners so I do not write this lightly.

:(


TBM Legend....could you please contact me somehow. I am easy to find.

[Weheka]

Thanks roundsounds, have done a reasonable amount of skydive time as well and have experienced the odd trim (overlooked) in the 185. Gets your attention the first time it happens but easily controlled. Flown the 206 a bit, but not on skydive ops.

[BlatantLiar]

What can catch you out is not resetting the elevator trim following a landing with 1 up. (...) If not reset before takeoff with a full load the control loads are very high

Now I've been lurking this website for a few years now but this HAS to be the dumbest thing I've read on here so far. On a 'professional' pilots forum you're pointing out that not checking your trim before take-off might just happen to have some undesired effects? No sh!t sherlock. Last time I checked trim was the first item on your pre-takeoff checklist. Someone get me a gun.

[Car RAMROD]

Blatant Liar - firstly, I am not presuming anything with this operator in regards to their use or non-use of checklists, however have you ever flown with people who do not use written checklists both in either private or commercial world? I have, it's not that uncommon.
Checklists via memory only have items often forgotten. Flow procedures will occasionally forget something, but a written checklist will pick them up. However sometimes in a rush people will even miss things on written checklist because they are in a rush, they've done the same thing hundreds of times before and see what they expect/want to see, not what is actually on display in front of them.
I also like your generic checklist. Trims aren't the first pre-takeoff item on mine. Maybe I should adjust my approved check system to something less dumb?



Poor buggers.
I remember seeing the FaRT plane up FNQ back in the day.

[Jabawocky]

I fly out of caboolture regurlarly, anyone know if it was the usual Female jump pilot?

No.

If she is the one I think you mean she flies the C182.

I am with Ramrod.....checklists, either flow or a literal list require discipline. The flow is often better, and prior to rolling a "Killer item" check.

I doubt this is related to the accident. Perhaps an item not on any list I have ever seen now needs to be.

[PyroTek]

It's been 12 hours since the news and I'm still shocked. Absolutely floored. Pilot was my best friend and training buddy from SPL to CPL. He will be greatly missed by many.

[Ixixly]

So sorry to hear that Pyro, at this point we can only hope that something is learnt and in doing so other lives are saved, it's never good when a fellow Pilot loses their life in such a way, it's even worse when we don't know why or how it can be prevented in future. Take heart, the thoughts of us all are behind those who were close, we might backstab each other for a job but in such situations, in my experience, we rally together as a community and do whatever we can to ease the burden of those affected.

[Mick.B]

Lets hope its not a anti noise prank.

[Jabawocky]

Mick B, that is a horrible thought, I have goosebumps as I type. But you know after the C208 attack down the coast a bit, it is a valid question to ask.

As Pyro said, nice young lad, and yes I watched these two young men go through the ropes at YCAB, recently had many a yarn at the fuel pump. I do hope they find conclusive evidence of what went wrong.

I did not see it, buts several of my friends did, and the investigations have had them on site all day. I doubt the field will be open today either.


W8, mate, this is nothing at all to do with CASA. Qld police determine it a crime scene as 5 people are dead, and it was definately not from natural causes of old age. A coronial report will follow and QPS control the site. They do not know that it was not a criminal act, as pointed out above, so the only way to preserve the site, and stop me from getting back to my own hangar is to declare the whole field and the street a crime scene.

Nothing to do with CASA....save the criticism for when/where it is due.

[Creampuff]

Jabba

Several claimed eyewitnesses are reported as saying they heard a couple of loud bangs before the aircraft impacted with the ground. Is that consistent with what locals are telling you?

[Jabberwocky82]

I was down at the western hangars in an elevated position and heard a backfire sounding bang, then a huge rpm increase and then a 'thud'. I started to look in that direction when I heard the rpm, assuming it would be a simple back fire. I happened to see the very last moment as it impacted and saw the flames.
Ran downstairs, grabbed two extinguishers then drove over as quickly as possible, stopping to pick a couple of blokes up who were running over to help.
When we got there, two other guys had just started to try and put it out and as we readied the extinguishers, racing over to help when something exploded inside the wreckage that sent quite a bit of shrapnel over our heads. It was at that stage decided it was too dangerous. The firies got their in quite good time.

I can't believe there were five people inside that wreckage.

R.I.P.

[onetrack]

Jaba and others - If you were a witness to the event, get some time alone and recall clearly what you saw and heard, and write it down in detail, forgetting nothing.
You know you'll be questioned as part of the investigation, it's important to set in stone what you saw and heard, before too much time elapses, and other events start to intrude on the memories.

What makes it worse, is that much time elapses before coroners hearings and perhaps even lawsuits occur, thus making the potential for your memory to forget important small things.
If you do happen to become ensnared as a witness in a lawsuit (God forbid), aggressive lawyers will try and make you see and hear things you didn't hear or see, and thus put doubt in your mind.
Having a written witness observation to refer to, put down on paper from the day or two after the event, helps to ensure that no-one can put doubt into your mind over the sequence of events, or what you actually saw or heard.

[Stikybeke]

Jabba and the YCAB community,

My condolences to each and all of you who have had the misfortune to have been exposed to this tragedy. Regrettably this is something that will most likely remain with you for the rest of your lives so make sure that you do the best you can to manage the memory of what you have seen. If you haven't already done so take the advice of one track and somehow make an independent record of what you saw, heard, etc. No doubt the QPS and ATSB will be in contact with you sooner rather than later and your assistance will be a big help. Stay well, stay strong and stay safe...

Stiky
:(

[Horatio Leafblower]

+1 for the full written statement.

I have only been involved with the coroner once but it was 5 years after the event (!). Before I appeared before the coroner the NSW Police provided me with my written statement from the day following the event and I was amazed how much detail I had recorded there that I had subsequently forgotten.

Write it all down.

Vale to the victims :(

[Frank Arouet]

I concur. Having written it all down as soon as possible it removes the doubt that you are 'reconstructing' rather than 'recalling' at a later date. Having done that, give thought to your own wellbeing and consult help because you will have flashbacks. It's sad for everyone involved.

[Jabawocky]

Creamie, that is entirely possible.

The backfires people refer to are actually AFTER-FIRES in the exhaust, and the very plausible explanation is this. And remember the witness report I have is the plane pitched violently upwards as these sounds changed/happened.

Seat slides back on rail, or perhaps as has been seen before, the seat is not located on all points on the rail and it has slid back due to not being fully latched in.

Pilot has fist full of control column and throttle, so with rapid rearward movement, the natural tendency is to hang on and pull forward. This gives rise to a rapid pitch up and a rapid throttle closure.

The pitch up followed by stall spin is easy to imagine.

The rapid closing of throttle, with a TCM IO550 which this plane had, now has a fuel pump turning at 2700RPM and full rich and all of a sudden a rapid closure of throttle and air, but fuel still being sprayed into the intake port, overly rich mixture does not produce power and is expelled and igniting in the exhaust.

Then allegedly there was a recovery of engine (may be some conjecture here but I am not 100% sure) so an attempt to restore power perhaps, but it is all too late.

Now, do not take this to the bank as a "case closed" explanation. But the reports I have had, along with known things that can and do happen make this a highly likely scenario.

I am sure time will tell. If there was a genuine engine failure, this should come out in the subsequent inspection.

[puff]

HELP NEEDED: Please SHARE
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is looking for any witnesses who saw yesterday’s tragic Caboolture plane crash.
Anyone with information is being urged to contact the ATSB on 1800 020 616.

[Weheka]

Sounds like a very plausible theory Jabba. I know with the 185 (before free Cessna seat stop was available) I would have the seat lock in behind seat, leave chair type pilots rig on the seat and never had to move the seat to get in and out. Regardless of the cause, it is probably a good thing to do if you can in Cessna type aircraft anyway, just one less thing to go wrong.

[GTang]

Re: the seat pin theory. There were two tandems on board. If one tandem pair sat directly behind and leaning against the pilot seat, the seat would not have moved very far. But in a 206 I guess there is enough room to be seated loosely.

[TBM-Legend]

From what I saw I would guess it was a trim issue . The seat movement could also be correct of course but the pitch up to 200-300 feet appeared to be speed driven not a sudden pitch up followed by a stall and left wing down. The aircraft had very little forward speed when it hit as witnessed by the ground strike and position of the prop which detached and had severely bent blades in a rotational sense. As for the engine noise I put it down to the Doppler effect of full screaming 206 on takeoff but decelerating speed followed by a thud!

[Weheka]

Anyone with a lot of time on skydiving ops in a 206 should be able to tell us if full aft trim on T/O is reasonably easy to overcome, or not.
I'm sure it's been forgotten a few times over the years, with the thousands of loads that have gone up in 206s.

[wheels_down]

I think the news sites posting photos of the crash, not realising that they are indeed the dead bodies right in the middle, perhaps just a little too far?

EDIT: good to see one paper blurring it out online!

[BlatantLiar]

Can you post a link to said photos?

[500N]

Front page of every major newspaper in the country !

No, I'm not posting a link.

[VH-XXX]

In theory the seat pin is unlikely because the secondary seat stop mod is a mandatory service bulletin.

[Mike Litoris]

Weheka, I have about 200 hours jump flying in a 206 and have forgotten the trim once. From memory I had 6 jumpers on board so it was a very heavy load, and the pitch up was quite violent. The force I that had to use to push forward was massive and not easy at all. Luckily I was strong enough to be able to do it. I don't know how strong the pilot at Caboolture was, but I'm sure a lot of the slighter pilots out there would not have the upper body strength to be able to push the nose down. Needless to say, I never forgot the trim again.

RIP to those involved

[PyroTek]

Mike Litorus:
The pilot had ample upper body strength in my opinion. He was a fit and strong guy. I think he would have had the strength to counter the forces involved.

[roundsounds]

BlatantLiar
sorry you found my post so infuriating, but a few seconds on google located this investigation:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20041105X01762&key=1

you might find the Army Pilatus Porter accident at Jasper's Brush in 1991 and turbine Fletcher out of Fox Glacier NZ 2010 worth reviewing.

[A37575]

One of the first things you should do if you have a un-commanded severe pitch up that obviously cannot be retrieved by forward stick, is to roll hard in one direction or the other which causes the nose to fall all the while unloading or maintaining steady forward pressure on the stick. In other words recovery from an unusual attitude. You have to be real quick of course. As the nose reaches the horizon after the roll. You reverse the direction of roll to get back to wings level. After that you take your chances if it pitches up again.

This type of recovery applies to any aeroplane. In fact, under the sub-heading of Upset recovery -Nose high, Wings level, the Boeing 737 Flight Crew Training Manual covers this in the chapter of UA recoveries by stating: Quote:

"If normal pitch control inputs do not stop an increasing pitch rate, rolling the airplane to a bank angle that starts the nose down should work. Bank angles of about 45 degrees, up to a maximum of 60 degrees, could be needed. Unloading the wing by maintaining continuous nose-down elevator pressure keeps the wing angle of attack as low as possible, making the normal roll controls as effective as possible.

With airspeed as low as stick shaker onset, normal roll controls - up to full deflection of ailerons and spoilers - may be used. The rolling maneuver changes the pitch rate into a turning maneuver, allowing the pitch to decrease. Finally, if normal pitch control then roll control is ineffective, careful rudder input into the direction of the desired roll may be required to induce a rolling maneuver for recovery. Only a small amount of rudder is needed.
Too much rudder applied too quickly or held too long may result in loss of lateral and directional control. Because of the low energy condition, pilots should exercise caution when applying the rudder. The reduced pitch attitude allows airspeed to increase, thereby improving elevator and aileron control effectiveness.

After the pitch attitude and airspeed returned to the desired range, the pilot can reduce the angle of bank with normal lateral light controls and return the airplane to normal flight"

Unquote.
............................................................ ....................................

This detailed description of how to recover from a sudden nose high attitude, characteristic of several sky diver aircraft accidents in the past, is probably not be taught during pilot dual instruction on these type of operations. In view of the nature of sky diving operations, it should be. After all, unusual attitude recovery training should be part of PPL training; although one suspects many flying instructors are unsure how to teach the manoeuvre. It does not have to be an aerobatic aircraft for this type of training.

[Paragraph377]

500N, good call. Those pictures don't belong here. On this occasion the media, albeit inexperienced and uneducated in aviation accident investigations, committed a despicable mistake in broadcasting a number of those pictures which clearly show things that the public shouldn't see. There is no dignity to the deceased or their loved ones by this having occurred.

I'm not sure what the causation of this accident is, even though I have some of my own theories, but at the end of the day another pilot has died doing what he loves most and in total 5 more people have been added to our aviation death list. A sad day indeed. R.I.P

[RetiredTooEarly]

Deep down I agree completely but for heavens sake, the pics were accidentally taken I'm sure and unless your attention is specifically drawn to the "objects" in the crash it is physically impossible go make out much detail!

We are bombarded with the most violent and gruesome scenes 24/7 on TV e,g, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. and we have become so hardened and conditioned by death, poverty, destruction and the like, very few of us even turn a hair any more.

We "posters" are partially to blame as we do tend to hammer and emphasise stuff like this, if we dropped the subject it would disappear in a day or so.

If we, as pilots, see a car crash with victims clearly deceased and visible all over the road and in the vehicles, we hardly turn a hair but because we are more closely associated with aircraft victims we do tend to get more hot and bothered over the niceties of it!

Anyway, yer all right basically, not a great image of our media but let's forget about it and concentration what went wrong anc prevent it happening it again.

[Lancair70]

I have flown thousands of skydive loads in 182's and probably 20-30 loads in 206's.
I have had an out of CofG experience in a 206, though not whilst skydiving. Took off with a full load of 6 POB heading to Birdsville, whilst in flight pax moved bags etc rearwards and with the fuel burn moving it further rear. On slowing down in the circuit at Windorah and taking a stage of flap, pitch control became very very dicey, instantly restoring full power, removing flap slowly and then getting all items moved forward again, even had front RHS pax holding a bag or two and normal control was restored.
IF on rotation or in the subsequent pitch up of unknown cause, pax slid aft on the floor a rear CofG could have ensued making control more than difficult?

Hopefully there are clues to this tragic event.
A sad day for aviation and the skydive industry.

RIP

[Jimpet]

I have been asked to explain why a C of G problem was high on my list of factors in this accident.
I have a very active curiosity about the complex mechanisms of aircraft accidents but no commercial or skydiving flying experience.
Most of us would be aware of the full back trim required for a full flap landing in Cessna singles with just a pilot aboard and the very high forward stick pressure required for a go around usually requiring both hands (much higher in the heavier singles)
I am also aware that one of the " Gotchas! " of skydiving aviation is the informal non progressive loading by parachutists who may not be fully aware of the C of G (handling & control) implications. This flight was for two tandem groups who probably wanted to jump as close to each other as possible (photos & video) through a rear cargo exit. A rear C of G risk factor!
The reported left turn of the aircraft and the steep ground impact suggests a stall with left wing drop ? Nose up trim ? Load shift ? Rear C of G
A ( ? reported ) loss of power at a critical time adds to this hazard.

My condolences to all those who have experienced losses in this accident. - so has GA

[GTang]

I am also aware that one of the " Gotchas! " of skydiving aviation is the informal non progressive loading by parachutists who may not be fully aware of the C of G (handling & control) implications. This flight was for two tandem groups who probably wanted to jump as close to each other as possible (photos & video) through a rear cargo exit. A rear C of G risk factor!


Tandem pairs do not jump as close to each other as possible, and they are not getting ready to jump out at 200ft :ugh:

[Jimpet]

To highlight the point I was trying to make.
How does a normally docile Cessna get into a left stall turn.

Which of the parachutists (if any) were sitting beside the pilot? (As in progressive loading from front to back)

[Tarq57]

To highlight the point I was trying to make.
How does a normally docile Cessna get into a left stall turn.

Which of the parachutists (if any) were sitting beside the pilot? (As in progressive loading from front to back)
You mean a stall with a left wing drop, I think, not a stall turn.

The "normally docile" 206 is a bit of a different beast when aft loaded at high weight; something I would imagine a skydive-dropper pilot would be well familiar with.

I know of at least one experienced pilot who has been bitten by the low speed handling at high weight/aft c of g.

[truth_seeker]

Gentlemen,

Word is that the 206 (VH FRT) which crashed at Caboolture on Saturday was bought from Cairns about four years ago. Does anyone know who owned it back then?
The Courier Mail's reporting it had a new engine installed just before its sale...

[morno]

And that matters why?

Aircraft get new engines all the time. I'd be worried if it didn't get a new engine when the old one became due.

Ahh the stupidity of the uneducated at it again.

Let the poor souls who tragically lost their lives in this accident rest in piece and leave all the answer searching to investigators.

As a regular in and out of Brisy from the North, I've heard and seen old FRT do many a jump run. Quite sad to think it'd finish up in a sad accident like this with a young bloke at the controls who was simply trying to get his career underway and to the next step.

morno

[Stikybeke]

Well said morno....

Stiky
:(

[Weheka]

Very well put Morno....on both subjects. There will be people going through hell at the moment.

[C206driver]

Re the engine change: IO-550

http://www.atlantic-aero.com/main/docs/cessna_206_550_stationair_brochure.pdf

[SloppyJoe]

Questions were previously asked about trim position in a 206 being set incorrectly and if it can be overcome. I am in no way implying that it's the reason for this 206 crash but have linked to an NTSB report below to answer the question about trim setting.

Untitled Page (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20041105X01762&ntsbno=MIA05FA017&akey=1)

[yr right]

was told today it appears the pilots seat tracks had no stops and the seat has move back.
All lost over a 20 cent part
sadness

[Up-into-the-air]

If I remember, there was an incident at Walget, where the seat moved back on a "flyover" and pull out.

[TBM-Legend]

The description in the FAA C206 accident fits what I saw at CAB,,,

[VH-XXX]

Yr right.. I'm surprised you heard this, did someone at the ATSB tell you this information? Will you be giving this information at the Coronial Inquest and or are you an ATSB witness?

Of course you should realise that by posting this information you have directly implied a raft of indictable offences by the aircraft operator (or maintenance provider) as we all know about the mandatory seat stop airworthiness directive that effectively eliminates this issue.

You are a brave man or woman.

[yr right]

I was told this and also was told by a friend that it was on the abc news in Brisbane as we'll.

[Aussie Bob]

Yr right.. I'm surprised you heard this

I am not surprised at all that he heard this. All you need to do is read the accident threads on this forum to realise that well meaning folks jump to amazing conclusions then spread them as fact. Tis the reason I seldom comment on accident threads.

[TBM-Legend]

It is not an offence to discuss publicly available information or to have an opinion..I don't know who XXX's legal advisor is!

The seat info was published: See below

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/planes-loose-seat-may-have-cost-five-lives-in-caboolture-crash/story-e6frg95x-1226871334797#)

[VH-XXX]

There's a big difference between "a loose seat may have caused the crash," versus "it appears the pilots seat track had no stops."

I can't read the article however from memory a loose seat was reported by the previous pilot. That is a far cry from missing stops.

What you specifically write has significant impacts. A loose seat does not mean it had no stops; no stops means negligence by the maintenance provider or operator; a loose seat on a previous flight implicates the pilot from the previous flight if they didn't report it.

Just be careful with the use of throw-away lines as they can be misinterpreted.

[Trojan1981]

Hmmm, nope, there is no problem whatsoever with what he said XXX.

At best, the operator could attempt to sue if a subsequent investigation rules this out as a possibility. But that is not going to happen, because the operator will have a lot more on their mind at the moment, and in coming years, than the theories posed on PPrune.

yr right, I have heard this too, though not directly, I believe the witness is helping the ATSB with the investigation.

[VH-XXX]

I hope that whoever is at fault be it a pilot who didn't write it up, a mechanic that didn't fix it or an operator that said "wait till the next annual," has a good lawyer as those parents had 6 kids between them not to mention the tandems and pilots families.

[BlatantLiar]

I hope that whoever is at fault be it a pilot who didn't write it up, a mechanic that didn't fix it or an operator that said "wait till the next annual," has a good lawyer as those parents had 6 kids between them not to mention the tandems and pilots families.

What is 'it' XXX? Careful now, lets not jump to conclusions. I hope you have a good lawyer.

[VH-XXX]

Don't be a tosser blatantliar.

[onetrack]

Perhaps it's time to relate the owners story to balance out the opinions.

http://www.melbournedailystar.com/tag/crash/

I'm sure the ATSB will find the most probable cause in the final report.
Let's not get too carried away with personal attacks over what is largely opinions, anyway.

[yr right]

It was stated on the abc news I was told. It then must have been deleted from there program listing. End of the day sad ness

[FoolCorsePich]

Investigation: AO-2014-053 - Collision with terrain involving Cessna U206G, VH-FRT, Caboolture Airfield, Qld on 22 March 2014 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ao-2014-053.aspx)

With the report continuously getting pushed back and with some time now since the accident, does anyone on here have any reasonably certain knowledge as to what actually caused it?

[Jabawocky]

Yes I do. The ATSB know as well (I know they know), I am just astounded the report has not been released.

It will be interesting to see if they come out and tell it straight or just waffle around.

If you really want to discuss it PM me and I will talk to you by phone. Alternatively I am pretty sure (I think :confused: ) myself and others have explained it somewhere in this thread.

[FoolCoarsePitch]

anticipated to be released to the public in February 2016.

Any new evidence rumored to have come to light that might be impeding the release of this report?

[iPahlot]

Any new evidence rumored to have come to light that might be impeding the release of this report?

Updated: 1 March 2016

The additional investigative work reported in our 19 October 2015 update has been completed. Quality assurance of the investigation and draft report is being finalised before ATSB Commission approval of the report for release to directly involved parties (DIP).

The draft investigation report is now anticipated for release to DIPs for comment by mid‑April 2016. Feedback from those parties over the 28-day DIP period on the factual accuracy of the draft report will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated to be released to the public in June 2016.

[olm8tyrone]

The draft investigation report is now anticipated for release to DIPs for comment on the factual accuracy of the report in July 2016. Feedback from those parties over the 28-day DIP period will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated to be released to the public in September 2016.

Why do they continue to lie?

[edsbar]

Still no report .......

[framer]

Safety is our number one priority.

[Wiggley]

Report is finally out. https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ao-2014-053.aspx

SMS and some other safety recommendations for Sky Dive ops by the looks.

[spinex]

So much for; "don't speculate, wait for the report". Not very much to it after all that time.

[Lookleft]

The classification of parachute ops has been a recurring theme in ATSB reports for over a decade. CASA don't care and it would seem that the APF are either incompetent or willfully negligent.

[andrewr]

The classification of parachute ops has been a recurring theme in ATSB reports for over a decade.

Yes, an interesting statement in the report:

CASA has treated the airlift component of skydiving as a private operation because CASA considers that the payment made by the parachutists is for the descent from the aircraft, not flight in the aircraft

I wonder how you would go arguing that payment is for the holiday, not the flight to the holiday location?

One thing did catch my attention:

Transfer marks from the propeller blade pitch change linkages on the propeller hub internal components indicated that the propeller blades were in fine pitch on contact with terrain. Fine pitch is the normal propeller blade position for take-off and low-speed flight.

Do they mean the propeller was on the fine pitch stops? I would have thought that at flying speed & full power, the propeller would be off the stops and in the governing range. If it's on the stops, it suggests the engine wasn't (or was barely) producing enough power to reach the selected RPM.

[megan]

CASA has treated the airlift component of skydiving as a private operation because CASA considers that the payment made by the parachutists is for the descent from the aircraft, not flight in the aircraftThat's because everyone is required to join the APF as a member prior to the jump - it's included in the price, and you just sign the membership form. As such you are deemed to be a student skydiver, and the aircraft ride is incidental to the jump.

[kingRB]

That's because everyone is required to join the APF as a member prior to the jum

Still a load of horse****.

Ask any DZ operator and even they openly admit the skydive is for free, it's the ride to height that you are paying for. You pay whether you get out or not.

[aroa]

At one time they did care...CAsA CNS bitched on about drop passengers being flown aloft by PPLs ..but CPLs were required to freight crabs from the Cape.! I kid you not.

My reponse was. oi, thems your rules and anyway the divers/passengers make an informed choice to get aboard or not... and bail out anyway, having paid for a dive down not a flight up.
The crabs dont buy a ticket or have a choice anyway. No informed choice on whether to fly by very unsafe SE charter. (see the Cape record for fatal accidents)

Since they reckon its a 'sport' hence the current disinterest and requirement to pay to be a temporary APF member to prove yre in the 'sport',
And thus its not a commercial operation. Really !!
Its one bit of GA making some good dosh.
And its all about CAsAs legal acrobatics and discrepant wording.
No accountability or liability either.

[Lead Balloon]

CASA has treated the airlift component of skydiving as a private operation because CASA considers that the payment made by the parachutists is for the descent from the aircraft, not flight in the aircraft.The only adjective I can think of is: Orwellian.

In the case of the parachutist passengers, CASA considers that the passengers are paying money only for what happens after they leave the aircraft.

But if a pilot flies passengers from - say - Adelaide to - say - Kangaroo Island for "free" for a holiday stay at accommodation owned and charged for by the pilot, CASA considers that the money paid by the passengers is part of an overall transaction for services that include the flight and therefore the flight is for a commercial purpose.

Passengers paying for enjoyment of experience X are apparently on board a private flight from A to B if X happens to be a parachute jump, but on board a commercial flight if X happens to be a holiday at Kangaroo Island. It's OK for a private pilot to be paid to carry the parachutists passengers to point B in the sky, by it's not OK for the same pilot to be paid to carry the same passengers to point B on the ground.

In the case of the parachutist passengers, apparently the money paid is attributable only to what happens after they exit the aircraft; not so for other passengers.

The safety basis for these distinctions are obvious: No fare paying passenger has ever died in parachute operations.

Orwellian.

Classification of operations rules have been broken forever, and it's obvious that CASA is incapable of fixing them.

[gerry111]

Fortunately, shares in 'Skydive the Beach Group Ltd' remained constant at 66c today. Apparently there's no sudden market fears from the ATSB report..

[Lead Balloon]

Of course not: It's a private operation because CASA and ATSB say so.

Great for the share price of an organisation that makes money from fare paying passengers only after they have been magically delivered to thousands of feet in the sky.

[runway16]

Parachuting & Private ops.





CASA and Ostriches have one thing in common - head in the sand.

[megan]

having paid for a dive down not a flight upI guess if you take the flight up, lose your nerve, don't jump, fly back down and land, you get a full refund of monies paid. No? ;)

[Lead Balloon]

Of course. The flight itself is free.

[YouKnow.Whatever]

The plane was due to dive from 14,000 feet onto the beach at Bribie Island.

Seriously. Such is the state of our national broadcaster.


Full article here, if you dare. (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-24/calboolture-plane-crash-findings-pilot-seat-may-not-locked/8647524)

[Jumping pilot]

This sounds similar to a crash where the pilots seat wasn't actually locked into place, and with the pilots hands on the throttle and controls, the aircraft took off, the seat rolled back and they consequently pulled the plane up and cut the throttle.

[currawong]

Also similar to other skydiving accidents in different aircraft with a non - adjustable pilot seat...

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Many of you obviously believe that (as CASA does) that more regulation is the answer to everything.
Bring it on, let's boost the CASA payroll so that every flight is "notified" and "approved" (I am not kidding, it was suggested at the very first meeting of the now disbanded SCC in about 2001 or 02) --- and we used to do that for every flight over 50nm.
How about a check flight for every pilot, every time, before you go flying.
How about a LAME signed off pre-flight or at least a LAME for every daily inspection ---- a favorite of the ALAEA.
Or what else would you like??
Don't worry about the cost, how can you put a value on human life??
After all, with enough regulation we will reach nirvana, nothing flying and we all know "Empty Skies are Safe Skies".

Tooter pip!!

PS: And get real about risk the aeroplane part of the skydive "experience" is statistically the lowest risk (safest -- if you insist on that word) segment..

[Ascend Charlie]

Unlocking seats are not that rare - i had mine let go on rotation in an Aerocommander - a short moment of excitement, but the machine was trimmed reasonably well, and hooking my toes under the pedals let me pull the seat back to the normal position. Helped a bit by the pax in the seat behind.

Made darn sure on next leg to rock the seat thoroughly before takeoff to confirm it was properly on the tracks.

[Ixixly]

Whoever wrote that Headline for the ABC should be ashamed of themselves, pure clickbait bullsh*t.

It could have been a shifting seat, it could have been an Engine Malfunction, or a Control Surface Malfunction, for all we know it COULD have been Magic or Aliens that did it, hell maybe an invisible Pegasus flew through and created some wake turbulence?! So sick of seeing this sort of thing from "Journalists", they should be ashamed of themselves, people died.

[Centaurus]

Unlocking seats are not that rare

Re the above highlighted quote, I often wonder if Pprune readers have ever noticed that flying schools operating Cessna singles, often fail to mention to students that the Cessna POH manufacturers Before Landing Checklist, includes as the first item "Seats Secure". Yet it is a vital flight safety check. But then, it is not unknown for flying schools to design their own checklists which are often at variance with the manufacturer's published checklist for the type.

[megan]

And get real about risk the aeroplane part of the skydive "experience" is statistically the lowest risk (safest -- if you insist on that word) segmentI try and keep track of skydiving misadventures and would challenge your statement Leadie. The number of skydiving folk dying in aircraft accidents makes me tend to think the jump is the safest part. (ex jumper)

[Connedrod]

Unbelievable. Astb cant say if it had the pin in or out. WTF. Steel pin what did it vaporize in the fire. So what about the phone call made to us im guessing that didnt happen ethier.
Joke !!

[andrewr]

The damage described to the left pin (broken by a left to right bending overload) sounds like it was solidly located in the hole to me - but the ATSB probably can't say that with certainty.

I don't see any real evidence in the report that the seat wasn't secure.

[runway16]

Carrying your pilots log book in a parachuting aircraft. I think not.
No mention that I recall of the pilot wearing a parachute or an oxygen bottle for operations at 14,000.

[Jabawocky]

I note this in relation to the seat-seat belt which was not installed.

The ATSB sought a determination from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) on whether the manufacturer’s service bulletin was mandatory in Australia. CASA stated that, even though the manufacturer categorised the service bulletin as mandatory for the pilot’s seat, it was not considered mandatory in Australia. CASA explained that as the regulator from the country of manufacture (US FAA) had not issued an AD to mandate the service bulletin, it had not automatically become mandatory in Australia.

Some of the regulars will know exactly what I am thinking. The rest will just also wonder what is and what is not according to CASA. :ugh:

[Lead Balloon]

I'm confused, Jaba.

The explanation from CASA seems correct, to me. Thankfully manufacturer's MSBs are not automatically picked up and imposed under Australia's regs.

I check my seat rails and locking mechanisms, voluntarily, as I don't have a death wish...