FRI 4?

[wokkamate]

I know it is a contentious and divisive issue, but has anyone heard any rumours about a possible FRI 4? I know the US were offering $250K and their pilots are still leaving in droves. As usual, money doesn't stop those who really want to leave, but how much would be enough (tax free?) to stop some of those PVRs going in do we think? I have also heard rumours that in a couple of years time there will be a massive shortage of experienced aircrew which could cause the RAF some heartache. Cheaper to retain than train?

Hey, it is a rumour network after all! :ok:

[The English Passenger]

Nothing would keep me in. Quality of life is far more important than money. 25 years has been more than enough.....turn the lights out when you leave.

[VinRouge]

If you ever read black swan by nassim taleb he describes the concept of **** you money.

Not even **** you money would keep me in past what I originally signed to. After tax, it has to be considerably over triple what you would have got anyhow on your forces pension.

£250k fri? Never going to happen IMHO.

[rotormonkey]

I do think that if an FRI were to magically appear, it would be to little too late for many.

But, why would they offer FRIs? There isn't a problem, according to Manning. :ugh:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqgzi9z8QB1qkzq2g.gif

[MSOCS]

The problem I personally have with any FRI is justification, both to HM Treasury and the tax payer. The initiatives that have gone before have been rushed in to curb near-term manning issues, thus they have been poorly targeted and produced little tangible evidence that they achieved their end-state. The Treasury are wary and therefore highly unlikely to approve any such retention measures unless they show rigour and a positive cost-benefit. ISTR the US $250k offer had a 10-year return of service, so something equivalent in the UK would be c.£11k p.a. after tax with a 10-year lock in!

Just wait until the commercial sector start recruiting strongly again in line with an improving economy! Many airlines have a large number of new jets, such as 787, on order and the extended retirement age Captains of this World are about to take their pensions and hit the fairway, creating an upward flow and a concomitant recruitment drive. I imagine that experienced ex-Mil pilots and aircraft technicians will once again be a cost-effective choice for airline growth but maybe I'm too optimistic :hmm:

Wokkamate, I agree that some form of FRI (FRI 4 if you will) is inevitable but it will almost certainly be a knee-jerk reaction to a sudden commercial pull; it will be poorly targeted and nowhere near enough money to change people's minds. The drawdown of Afghanistan and the further desire to save money and cut excess (SDSR15[16]) may create a huge activity void as we still try and get our heads around what FF2020 and the NEM mean. The prospect of dwindling opportunities and more swingeing cuts are already making a lot of people think carefully about alternative futures outside of the Forces.

I hope the situation gets 'gripped' before it becomes irreversible.

[newt]

Surely the cheapest and best solution is to offer an ATPL on completion of service. This could be done throughout basic and advanced flying training then frozen until the end of service when, depending on the type and hours achieved, a further course is done to update the ATPL. For those who no longer wish to fly then a cash sum should be offered! A win win situation!

Standing by for flack!:ok:

[Bob Viking]

Jesus Christ Newt. There's so much common sense in that post I don't know where to start. I think I need to go and lie down.
BV

[Gnd]

Dam, so wanted to have a go at you all for this but Newt has just sorted it - I don't want to fly post 'the job' but would love the 'kudos' of an ATPL for my CV. Cash isn't the answer, just a short term comfort blanket.

[Bob Viking]

Wasn't it the National Audit Office (or some similar bureaucratic bunch) who recently suggested the MOD should consider FRIs for targeted trades, of which pilot was one?
The treasury obviously don't want to spend money but it's simple maths in their view. If FRIs gives you a few bodies for less than it would cost to bring new bodies up to that standard then they'll be all for it. We can argue long and hard as to their effectiveness but in my case the bottom line is that if they give me some cash I'll stay a little longer. No bucks, no Buck Rogers as they say!
BV:O

[BEagle]

newt, until 22Gp bolleauxed it all up in 2012, the RAF actually had virtually the system which you describe....:ugh: It was a retention incentive, primarily, because people would put up with the $hit knowing that they'd be set up for civil flying when they left....

Whereas now there's no such incentive. FRI might bribe a few, but restoration of the previous 'QSP accreditation scheme' would cost far less.

[newt]

Beagle, maybe as a last resort they should invite us old retired fighter pilots back?

On second thoughts retirement is far too much fun!:ok:

[Phoney Tony]

FRI are a very poor way of retaining personnel. If pilots want to go let them. The market is self regulating. Once MoD paid the first FRI they made a rod for their own back. I know many who took the money, stayed for the minimum time and left anyway. Others had no intention of leaving. Thus on balance a waste of money.

When I was a lad we joined out of sense of duty and did not constantly look over the fence to see if the grass was greener.

[Toadstool]

When I was a lad we joined out of sense of duty and did not constantly look over the fence to see if the grass was greener.

While I agree Tony, some would say that this sense of duty is not reciprocated by a feeling of a sense of worth by our Lords and Masters. The continued erosion of Ts & Cs, new pension, NEM etc clearly illustrates the regard in which we are held. Loyalty used to be a two way street. Sadly, not any more.

[Phoney Tony]

Toadstool,

I totally agree with you. There are too many with an MBA type approach to management who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. I have often heard it said that the RAF only works due to the goodwill of its members.

[ralphmalph]

Tony,

I didn't join out of a sense of duty......more a desire to do a challenging and interesting job. Mere duty would not have cut the mustard I'm afraid, other options were available.

Some of the guys leaving now have been involved in some pretty tasty fighting for the past 13 years or so.....since GW2 we have been a little busy.

People wish to leave, but ironically, FRI is usually targeted at IPP. The people clamouring are at 6,8,10,13 years service.

The FRI would be good spent persuading a trained pilot not to take the chance and jump elsewhere for work. Believe me, it's a real draw.

But when Afghanistan finishes later this year, we can all take a "capability gap" and not have full manning for the next few years.....;-)

[wokkamate]

With the AH drivers apparently getting a (well deserved) FRI soon, does anyone have any more rumour news about a possible RAF FRI 4? Just wondering..

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Don't hold your breath. Did you see this thread?

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/572821-aac-fri.html


But, why would they offer FRIs? There isn't a problem, according to Manning.

Still true two years on!

[Courtney Mil]

Sadly, any meaningful FRI at this stage is very unlikely. The Gov is still rubbing its hand in glee at the £11bn of savings (identified) mentioned in SDSR. They've just got NEM and AFPS implemented so no one is about to highlight how wrong it is so soon and the statistical evidence hasn't been properly leveraged (hateful expression, but it works in this case). Whilst last years figures showed a shortfall in some manning areas, they wrote that off as the RAF being "on top of" the required manning reductions; so despite showing a manning deficit of some 2,000, those figures are still above the 2020 requirement so that's all OK - it's crazy, but it's how these things are viewed.

Gov is treating all departments' pleas the same - you have your resources, now you manage them properly. We gave you a very generous SDSR, it's no use coming to us for more (an SDSR that carefully avoided any meaningful mention of manning or terms).

There are other departments that are capable of presenting evidence in public that they are in or close to crisis whilst the MoD cannot - or at least, if they do, they will be put back in their box. The Chancellor still wants to balance his books before the next General Election and he won't want to miss that target a second time. He won't entertain any bleating today.

There is also a line of thought (the central bean counters and the Treasury) that states that if they give in to the Armed Forces (who can't take action) they will run into even more trouble with the Doctors, the Nurses, the Teachers, the Councils, the Civil Service, the Police, the Firemen, the Ambulance Drivers, etc, (can/are/will).

Then there's the leadership - in general terms, comprising some good people in the RAF. The natural reluctance to raise concerns (for numerous and obvious reasons) at senior management, seeming difficulties at higher levels to engage directly with ministers and the ministers' wishes to support the party line all lead to a critical lack of action in this regard. That's nothing new, by the way.

FRI any time soon? Not unless that PVR button starts to go into meltdown. As they've been saying for decades now, "We don't need to retain everyone. There are plenty more that want to do the job." Today's school-leavers who want to be fighter pilots aren't quite as concerned about TOC, pensions, lawyers and the like as those with more years behind them.

[wokkamate]

CM - a very considered and intelligent reply, thank you.

Perhaps we (the Military) should stage some one day strikes to highlight our 'issues' (see my other recent thread) and maybe the Firemen, ambulance drivers, tanker drivers, Police, etc could cover for us in Syria, Iraq and a multitude of other dangerous places. Oops, forgot, we can't strike! Ho hum,long lunch break for me instead....

[thebeatnut]

AFPRB chair apparently wrote off RAF FRIs in a recent meeting, quoting the fact that they tend to be taken by those who were intending to stay anyway... A fact we all remember from the Harrier payout a few years ago. Stated that separate Pilot pay spine was one of several options under consideration. Main option seems to involve no RRP up until 6yrs post OCU, followed by lump sum and enhanced rate, possibly with another RoS attached. Personally, after 9-12 years of standard Flt Lt pay I can't see a 40% taxed lump sum and middle-high rate flying pay being enough to keep anyone in, especially if they have an ATPL and some hours under their belt.

[theonewhoknows]

This discussion seems to be pilot-centric. Maybe unmanned is the answer!

[Courtney Mil]

You'd be looking forward to your flight to Cyprus in an unmanned Voyager then, will you?

[theonewhoknows]

Why Cyprus? Anyway, don't have a problem with that, or wherever it is!

[Junglydaz]

Unmanned Voyager? At least that'll prevent......ahem......loose articles in the cockpit......ahem :ok: