I'm going to DUBAI for a Job Hunt

[Mile High Nutcase]

Dear All

I am a Flight Instructor in the UK with over 2000hrs. Myself and a couple of colleagues have decided to come over to Dubai for a job hunt.
The plan is to visit as many head offices of airlines, Bizjet Operators, and flying schools over a three day period in and around Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Al Ain and RAK.

We are not type rated but happy to pay for a rating if there is a job at the end of it.

The reason for this post is so that I can make a list of people to visit and make appointments with beforehand. I am after contact details of recruitment managers, Chief Pilots, Operations Managers. Anyone who is the right person for Pilot recruitment.

Please PM me with details or post in this thread.
Thanks in advance

MHN

[The Outlaw]

Why not offer to pay for your endorsement and fly for free for a year while you're at it?

Hell....be on call 24/7 and live in the hanger...maybe even pay for some fuel?

You are the are the poster boy for all that is wrong with aviation today.

[Likeitis]

Good way to start your career as a PFTer. Maybe you should just wait for a picket line you can cross. That will put you in a big shiny jet pronto.

[spanishfly69]

Outlaw. Great post. You are so right. May be he is willing to work as a Cabin Crew on his off day.

[Mile High Nutcase]

Why not read the original post before you start going on about pay to fly...

I'm going out there to SEARCH for jobs not BUY one.

Happy to pay for the cost of type rating as long as there is bonded job at the end of it. Where did I say I want to buy hours??

If you have useful information for me, I'd be most grateful.

thank you

[Likeitis]

Paying for your training(type) is the responsibility of the employer. When your ilk buy your job which is essentially what your doing you degrade the profession. Earn your job like thousands before you and don't take the easy way out by buying your job and therefore degrading an already degraded profession.

[The Outlaw]

Mile High Butt Case...


We are not type rated but happy to pay for a rating if there is a job at the end of it.

What part of "I'm not buying a job" am I missing? I thought I had a pretty good grasp on English but I'm pretty sure "Happy to pay for a rating if there is a job at the end of it" means just that.

Being from the UK, I would have expected better comprehension than that.

Stay in the UK and sniff out Ryanair....you're just the type they want.

[cactus98]

To those that responded....your thoughts on, for instance, Southwest Airlines? At least these gents are willing to get off their butts and network.

[flaphandlemover]

Guys, i think i know how you feel and what you are trying to achieve...

let me give you my 2 cents.

You will not get a job with any of the big ones here. So what you are doing is putting you in a position where it will be very easy to be ripped off.. especially here in the Middle East...

why don't you travel Europe and ask those outfits for a job?

Many outfits are run by crooks and you are a welcome target to be ripped off with lots of empty promises...

Mind me asking why not trying to get a job at Ryanair? O L is the f:mad: that killed the industry, but at least get some hours and move on...

Stay clear of the middle east.... lots of sun and easy to burn your wings....



Good luck...

[The Outlaw]

Flap Handle

Which OL are you referring to? Just curious about your point above.

I hope you don't assume that I worked for Ryanair, that would just be plain stupid.

[Calmcavok]

I thought expats needed a full ATPL in the UAE? Don't think you'll have much luck with a CPL/IR

[Vortac1]

I was also under the impression that you needed a full ATP certificate from your country in order to "tag" the local UAE ATP and the Type rating to it.

I've been wrong before tho...

[GoreTex]

2000 hrs and still a flight instructor? hmmmm, don't waste your time and coming over here

[Airmann]

You'd have better luck in Africa, you've got the wrong impression about how things work in the ME. There are no walk in interviews unless you want to the cleaning boy for the local shawarma shop and get paid £150 a month, no benefits, increases or promotions for as long as you live.

[120feet]

Perhaps there are jobs flying 1900s in the Kingdom of Saud. I can say you are wasting your time looking in the UAE. I agree, Africa is your best bet, or RYAN air. It appears you have the mental attitude for either.

[Airmann]

Mile High, I just want to clarify that I think that your idea is good, you are taking the initiative. Don't be put off by the flack you are getting here. I just want to clarify that my criticism is of the ME and not you, the culture or lack of it over here means that you'll be facing too many hurdles, the least if which are the bobble heads will not be able to understand how someone could have the initiative to travel to Dubai themselves and ask for a job in person. You'll get a typical "computer says no" type answer here, because that's the way it works, very few people are high up enough to authorise your appointment. And as many have said you must have a (Frozen) ATPL, and that's the local CAA regulation, so even if your friend or father, or brothers tennis partner is the CEO or something of an air operator it doesn't mean a thing without a (Frozen) ATPL (if your friend or father or brothers tennis partner is the ruler of an emirate or a close family member then you might have a chance with a CPL/IR)

[Old King Coal]

MHN: Your enthusiasm is admirable BUT, (imho) I too concur with the sentiments expressed here by others, that you're laying yourself wide-open to have your enthusiasm thoroughly abused & trashed by the many charlatans that seem to populate the senior positions at various airlines down here,... to say nothing of the middle management types (as described by Airmann) whom simply won't understand why you've turned-up on the door step without an invitation.

I might also add that I suspect that, charlatans aside, one problem you would face is that the UAE GCAA will not give you a 'validation' against your UK / EU license (for an airline job), unless you 1) hold at an ATPL, and 2) you have a reasonable amount of time on a respectably large Public Transport turbo-prop or turbo-jet. Any shortcoming in either of those and you won't even get past the doorman of those said same airlines, because no matter how much they might like you, the UAE's CGAA will not license you, and for the airline that'd be a showstopper.

Now I'm not saying it's impossible... but it's certainly not going to be easy and caveat venditor!

[Praise Jebus]

When I interviewed for EK several moons ago, there was a guy hanging around looking for a walk up interview. He let recruiting know he was in town for two weeks. A slot opened up and they called him in, didn't get the gig but he won't die wondering. MNH doesn't have the experience for EK but my point is you never know what happens if you take the chance, make your own luck. Having said that, paying for your rating is not so cool....

[ironbutt57]

Quite strange it's acceptable to most to pay for an advanced university degree...say an MBA so they can be promoted into management...(quite common), but paying for a type rating to extricate one's self from the piston/turboprop ghetto is extremely unacceptable....paying for one's line training/ hours...yes not good because the employer is realising revenues while the traininee is paying in as all....but a type rating?...debateable

[Desdihold]

This profession started down a slippery slope the day pilots starting paying for their specific training ie type rating to gain a job.
The boys at Ryanair not only pay for their rating but they also pay for their PPCs and for their upgrade courses..... I believe they also pay for their Instructor courses.

These people have really cheapened the profession and we are all starting to pay for the cancer they have spread.

Signed
an EK pilot.

[Mile High Nutcase]

Thanks for all your constructive input guys, I really appreciate all your comments.

Just to clarify, we all have frozen ATPL's. I have 2300 hrs, one of my colleagues has 3500hrs and the other has 1200 hrs.

I don't want this to be a pay to fly debate. I don't want to pay for hours, this is the reason we're venturing into the unknown, in this climate you have to go the extra mile..

I know most think we are wasting our time, but I'm always the optimist. If we don't do it, we'll never know.

Please pm me with contact information for chief pilots, heads of training's, or anyone involved in pilot recruitment just so that we can try to make some appointments. Knowledge of any UAE based flying schools would also be useful. Surely there are some people already working in UAE that could offer some constructive advice.

Thanks in advance MHN

[single chime]

Quote "in this climate you have to go the extra mile.."

Man, you are made for this place!

[flaphandlemover]

MNH

Dude after the last post u lost me...
How many people have to tell u the truth until you get it that it's useless to come here?
Which part don't u get?
Everybody is telling u off and u still ask for chiefpilots numbers...

Come over please and update us on your success...

PS you have been warned enough...

[fliion]

MNH,

I like your spirit, nothing ventured nothing gained.

But we live in the Information Age where all is accessible remotely.

You can do a lot of door knocking from an iPad & and a phone - not just in the ME but also in Africa & Asia

You would be better off at finding out the hotels the African/Asian/ME carriers stay at in UK, wait in the lobby of said hotel and introduce yourself to these guys and offer them a beer if they wouldn't mind chatting to you about the local situation, not necessarily asking them for a job but more importantly building rapport & intel...I did something similar years ago and it worked.

Contrary to what you might think by the reaction on this forum, the vast majority of pilots admire determination and drive and I'm sure many would gladly sit with you for an hour or so. We too walked in your shoes.

There's an awful lot of beer/coffee money you could save by not taking a trip trip out here.

Never, ever, ever, give up...but always work smart.

Good luck.

f.

[Fromagio]

Sounds like a complete wind-up to me.

[pfvspnf]

Airlines:

Fly Dubai
Air Arabia
Rotana Jet

Flight Schools

Horizon (Al Ain)
Fujeirah Aviation Academy
Emirates Flying School

Lots of cargo and charter gigs around but you will not have any luck until you get some corporate or transport category experience. Also, moving from the flight schools to the airlines is hard in the ME but certainly possible, you will have to build your network. Having a JAA license helps.

[Pittslover]

I think thats exactly what you are looking for.

Fly Gosh: Flight Instructors - Etihad Airways (http://www.flygosh.com/2014/03/flight-instructors-etihad-airways.html)

[OLVpilot]

What about coming over to the US to work for a regional? They will literally hire ANYONE with ATP minimums at this point. Apparently multiple DUI's are OK now, as long as you have the ATP mins.

Anyway, figure out how to get over the US and work. As long as you have a pulse, they'll put you in a E-170. Of course the pay sucks, but a great stepping stone to better paying jobs overseas, obtaining quick jet time.

[fliion]

He would need a Green Card. Not as easy as you would think.

Not even close.

f.

[Mile High Nutcase]

Never really thought about america because I dont have right to work there. But how hard is it really to get a green card.

tried etihad but because I am not an IR instructor, unfortunately do not meet the requirements. Still going to visit them though

MHN

[Vortac1]

Forget about a greencard. Even if you marry an American citizen, it'll still take you a long time to obtain it.

It's not like you're trying to find an airline that may sponsor you, it doesn't happen that way, yet.

Way too many regulations from TSA working against you and that's JUST to obtain your type rating for a 121 jet in US. Forget about actually flying it...

Even as a green card holder, it can be a PITA just to go through recurrent and getting the ok to sit in the box for 4 hours, especially if you have to reschedule it. It costs the company money too to get the authorization for your sim check.

Unless you have a greencard already, I would channel my time and energy elsewhere to seek employment.

Just my .02 cents.

[spanishfly69]

Vortac1, what you are saying is not true. After you get marry it takes to week to get your work permit and 3 months to get your green card. Please Vortac1, stop advising people of what you have no F...g clue.

[Vortac1]

Who pissed on your cornflakes? Easy there spanish. You're not the only one who has gotten through the greencard ordeal ya know...

I also was a greencard holder smart guy. I went through the process years ago and I'm talking by my own experience. Not every USCIS takes the same time to process paperwork, so go ahead and holster it.

My whole process took 1 year and 3 months from marriage till green card was in my hand. I still keep all the paperwork too, let me know when you have a chance, I'll show it to you next time I'm in MIA for your own peace of mind, or mostly just to keep you from looking like a fool on an Internet forum again.

Sorry to disappoint, but I do know what I'm talking about.

Like I said before to the OP, I'd suggest redirecting your energy/resources towards other job markets instead of US unless you already have a greencard.

Just my .02 cents.

[spanishfly69]

Vortac1, I am not going to waste my time with you. You are right, You know it all. Like you said, you talk about your own experience and that means "that is the way it is".
I have a peace of mind and the the last thing I want to do in MIA is to hang out with people like you.
Salud!!!
Back to the original topic

[Vortac1]

Back to the original topic

Smartest, most coherent thing you've typed in a while :D...

[zondaracer]

From marriage to green card in hand for my wife was 3 months, but don't marry someone just for a green card. Penalties are severe for green card fraud. There is also the green card lottery, but it is definitely a lottery, and not open to UK Citizens (except for Northern Ireland).

[Vortac1]

Good point. Totally forgot about that lottery. Worth a shot I guess if it's free or close to free to throw your name in the hat...

[zondaracer]

The green card lottery is free but the application window is once a year in the fall and selection occurs in May.

[cerbus]

If you are white forget about getting a Green Card. Under the half and half president now no white people can get in. Only 3rd world ****e heads.
If you are not white and from a crappy country you will be sure to get one.
There is no hope for the US.

[Journey Man]

Happy to pay for the cost of type rating as long as there is bonded job at the end of it.

What exactly do you propose being bonded for, it you pay for the type rating up front?

[Mile High Nutcase]

There are some airlines that want you pay for the cost up front of a type rating but over say a 3 year period they pay it back. Thats essentially a bond (with some airlines, not all).

MHN

[latetonite]

Any luck yet, M.H.Nutcase?

[migair54]

Go to africa and you can get a job flying 208, 206, pilatus if you are lucky or planes like B1900, twin otter if you're very very lucky.
Maybe you can try Indonesia or Papua also.

You can find jobs out there without paying, maybe not in places as glamorous as Dubai or Abu Dhabi but without paying to steal the job to others that have been working hard and they couldnt pay like you.

Good luck.

[Alfred76]

I must say I admire your enthusiasm to go to a country to look for a job. Most of people send e-mails or call including myself! But unfornatutly all of my attempts ended up with failure! I am also willing to pay for the type rating if I find a job garanteed. I am tired of burning money without getting anything in return! This profession is so complicated and I kind of lost faith...Good luck with job hunting.

[Chocks Away]

MHN, I don't think you get it yet, even after the first page of payouts.:ugh:

In the M.E., you don't just turn up at the front door of an airline like many do in Western societies. You need an invite! Full stop. That's how they operate AND they are very big on YOU respecting the way THEY do things IN THEIR COUNTRIES!

[ironbutt57]

Try burning a bit of blood sweat and tears like many of us had to....the ability to follow protocol in job seeking is most important...apply online and wait your turn...

[Alfred76]

Get me a job in Africa and i would go right now. I tried all kind of big and small companies and no one gives a ****!! Even in Botswana they want you to go and wait there for couple of months out of work among many pilots who wait there like beggars for a job!! It feels humiliating somehow! I wouldn't say no if i got a job in any country in spite of whether it is bush flying or something else....That's why I would for sure pay for the type rating if i got this opportunity. By the way, no one makes something thinking of the whole market. Who gives a damn about what is happening in the market!!? You think of yourself first caus no one is thinking about you no matter how much you will be begging for a job! I know many people who bought a type rating and even line training without even getting a job. At least i am waiting to get a job first...I would change my plan when i become a millionaire! I'm wondering if in the future the pilot will also have to pay a salary for the company instead of getting paid:)

[Vortac1]

Popcorn ready!

[Likeitis]

Alfie,

Your rationalization sounds oh too familiar to much of the crying I heard from scabs I had the displeasure of working with in a previous life. Your F you, I've got mind attitude will make you best friends with scum bag managers. Either that or you're prime material for management.

[takeoffpowerset]

I have a TT 1600 and 1050 on the CJ2 any chance for me in the sand pit ! ?

[Flap1 Retard]

Sorry dingo's but lets stop right now. ME is not the place to look for flying jobs.\

The hype outweighs the reality by 10 - 1! I've been here years and as much as I want to leave the golden handcuffs are tight. However as things continue to drop, with T & C's, Safety, etc the handcuffs are becoming easier to ignore.

Do yourself a favor and stay in Europe, etc. You will thanks us later!

[Mile High Nutcase]

I'm in Dubai right now, everyone we spoke to so far has expressed nothing but gratitude for what we are doing. I'll give you all an update when I get back to the UK. Fingers crossed.

MHN

[flaphandlemover]

hahahahaha..... cool....

they are just such friendly people... hahahah

u guys really know nothing about that place....

I am sure u will find a job...

PLease keep us postet and not just when u found one.... maybe an update after a couple of weeks.....

[AGL10]

Good to hear MHN,

Wishing you the best, lots of companies looking for pilots here. Show your motivation and you might get lucky.

I feel a lot of frustration on this thread, the last one to come for a jobhunt in Dubai is now FO with Flydubai and that was just a month ago. Anyone who has persevered has succeeded so far.

Keep us updated alright, cheers!

[Mile High Nutcase]

So here's some feedback from my job hunting trip to Dubai.

We spent 4 days out there visiting as many companies as possible, not only in Dubai but the whole country. RAK, Sharjah, Fujairah, Al AIn.

We met airline captains, FO's, Chief pilots, Directors of Flight Ops, Head of Trainings and even some CEO's. Although everyone was impressed with our dedication, it wasn't enough to be offered jobs mostly because of the following reasons:

1. Type ratings and experience on type - most companies wanted to take on people that already held a rating and had a fair number of hours on type. No company wanted to spend any time training employees. Caravan operators wanted 1000hrs on type. A number of prestigious Biz Jet operators ''advised'' us to go and buy type ratings and hours for the same reason.

2. Airlines are quite happy to take on the MPL program or they have requirements that we cannot achieve until we get our first airline job. Our experience or hours were of no use.

3. Flying schools were interested in us but lots of changes happening in some of them so waiting to see what happens.

In my personal opinion, the self improver route (which is what we are trying to do) is almost finished. There is no demand for people working up the ranks. quite sad really but it is what it is.

In conclusion, Learnt a lot about the industry in the middle east. Although it is a great place to be, its not easy to start there. In fact i found jobs for 3 of my friends that are already type rated and flying in Europe. Nothing for me as Non type rated.

Met a lot of people in the industry, made a lot of contacts, collected a ton of business cards. Even met some of the guys that gave us a lot of stick on this thread. One thing I will say though, People over there were very understanding and emphatic of us and genuinely wished us the best of luck.

All the guys we met that read this thread, just want to say thank you for taking the time to sit down with us and for all the advise you gave us. It was definitely a pleasure to have met you.

Going to carry on the search while doing what we're doing as flight instructors.

Still hoping and staying optimistic.

MHN

[BANANASBANANAS]

MHN,
There is no denying your dedication and stamina but are you absolutely sure you know what you are trying to let yourself in for. I am closer to the end of my career than the beginning. For that reason alone I will try to hang on until retirement. But I would do anything to dissuade anyone from embarking on a career in aviation today. If you love flying, go be a lawyer and hire a Cessna at the weekend. Sorry for being a crusty old fart but I guarantee that if you join this industry you will come to regret it.

[Old King Coal]

BANANASBANANAS: Fwiw, I fully concur !

[Mile High Nutcase]

Bananas

Thanks for the advise, unfortunately I got into this industry 10 years ago. started flying when i was 20. got all my qualifications at 25.
spent the last 5 years trying to work my way up. Problem is i've come too far now to turn back.

MHN

[BANANASBANANAS]

MHN, it is not too late for you, at 30, to change careers. Realistically you could be 35 before any airline will look at you seriously. By then, terms and conditions will be worse than they are now. You will probably have to sign up to a 7 year bond and not make enough salary to do anything other than live and pay interest only payments on all the debt you will have accrued in pursuit of a dream job. And just when you think you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and the possibility to pay off your debts in your mid to late 40s, your company will make you redundant and you will have to start all over again at the bottom of a seniority list again, living away from your family and living off pot noodles in your bedsit. Think I am joking?

[Twinotterguy]

Mate, you should pack your bags and head down to Africa. Chances of securing a job there is fairly higher than in the Middle east. I started my career in Africa many years ago, never regretted it, gained valuable experience and hours which helped me to secure a jet job later in life. It will be tough if you decided to do it but you never know. I wish all the best in your llife.

@Banana it doesnt happen to everyone!!! too much negativity in here

[what_goes_up]

Hate to be a party pooper.. But I am 100% with Bananas...
Go get yourself a decent career elsewhere and enjoy flying on week-ends!

I will definitely not pursue my kids to get to the pointy end as a career...
Sad but true.

[BANANASBANANAS]

MHN, you have received a wide range of advice from members of this forum _ all of whom, I am sure are trying to help. At your age you still have choices. Make them wisely my friend.

[millerscourt]

MHN When I first read your post about turning up in the Gulf with your qualifications I just knew you were doomed to fail but refrained from saying so at the time as did not want to be a party pooper.:sad:

Take heed of what Bananas says ( He was once the unofficial recruiting Sergeant for SQ Cargo for the first few years) but coming from Brunei one cannot blame him for that.

BB seems to be somewhat disenchanted with EK from what I can tell , but those of us who have been in Aviation a long time have seen the decline in T & C's over the years hence his good advice now.;)

[BANANASBANANAS]

MHN, Some people will try to offer you genuinely helpful advice but there will always be one or two that try to stir the pot rather than offer anything constructive. Your situation and mine are very different because of age and experience. I am happy enough in my fur lined rut but could not, in all honesty, recommend commercial aviation as a career to anyone considering it from an entry level position today. Good luck with whatever you decide.