LONG RANGE SAR

[thunderbird7]

So, God forbid, should an airliner come down at 30W, which asset will we be using to conduct the long hours of search and possible rescue? Sadly, these things do happen... :rolleyes:

[alfred_the_great]

Ships. Next.

[Treble one]

The Navy?


There's a couple of Nimrods in fast taxying condition (I know, I know)


C-130?


Options are fairly limited it would seem.

[Biggus]

t7,

Get your MP to ask the question on your behalf!





Then you'll get the 'official' answer.

[betty swallox]

Great question. Sadly we have nothing. Our wonderful government's mitigation is to rely on the French...

[KPax]

Wilst working at Pitreavie in the 80's the 'plan' was to despatch a couple of C130's with large rafts and drop them in the vicinity, send the Navy and ask the USAF to help with C130 and CH53., not much but it was the best at the time.

[betty swallox]

That's ancient history and doesn't exist anymore. We have no assets to take on this task. The end.

[FATTER GATOR]

Right Alfred the Great...you have got my blood up.

A ship travels at 12-20kts, so unless it's in the right place already, everyone who survived the crash at 30W will probably die. It takes too long to get to the scene and conducts a slow search.

A Long Range MPA travels at 300+kts, so some people who survived the crash at 30W might survive because timely and accurate location is more likely, Apparatus Sea Rescue can be thrown at the survivors, some of whom might just be able to climb aboard.

The UK government took a conscious decision to do away with that capability.

Next.

[betty swallox]

Exactly!!!!!!

[Biggus]

In terms of military platforms, the UK has a C-130J that is supposedly available for SAR tasking, although it is not a dedicated SAR asset.



What equipment the aircraft carries, and how well trained the crews are, I could not answer. Perhaps a C-130J man can? However, do remember that the C-130J fleet have provided long range maritime SAR around the Falkland Islands for many years, and have had some success doing so!

[thunderbird7]

t7,Get your MP to ask the question on your behalf!
Then you'll get the 'official' answer.

I did. And got a load of waffle from someone who clearly didn't have a scooby what he was talking about. His constituency includes St Mawgan.....

[betty swallox]

Ok Biggus. Please enlighten us as to what sort of standby that's on right now??!!

[lj101]

Therefore, the Azores Air Detachment and the Portuguese Air Force's 502nd and 751st Squadrons operate in the archipelago, where they're uniquely positioned to respond to these underway Atlantic emergencies. The Portuguese Air Force search and rescue arsenal consists of two EH-101 Merlin helicopters and one Casa C-295M, which remain on 24-hour alert at the base. SAR crews in the Merlin typically consist of a pilot, co-pilot, systems operator, rescue swimmer and nurse. Other Portuguese search and rescue assets include the P-3 Orion and C-130 Hercules.

Since the beginning of 2012, Portuguese aircraft operating from Lajes Field have combined for 232 search and rescue missions, coming to the aid of 252 people.

When executing search and rescue missions, these aircraft count on American fuel pumped by the 65th Logistics Readiness Squadron Fuels Management Flight.

"Within the past year alone, the Fuels Management Flight supported Portuguese SAR missions with a grand total of 220,400 gallons of fuel, servicing the C-295 and EH-101 aircraft," said Staff Sgt. Lucas Thompson, 65th LRS Fuels Service Center NCOIC. The 65th LRS receives as many as four calls a day to assist the Portuguese SAR team.

When the SAR unit contacts the 65th LRS' control center, a fuels operator arrives on scene within minutes to provide up to 1,000 gallons of fuel. Speed is key, said Master Sgt. Frank Berrones, 65th LRS Fuels Management Flight superintendent.

Although the Air Force once used a 30-minute standard for which operators must respond to aircraft fueling requests, no true standard exists, said Berrones.

There is a C130 in Halifax NS that is on 30 mins standby by day and from memory 1 hr at night.

[alfred_the_great]

FG - I'd wager there are more ships out there than you think. There would likely be a ship on station within 12 - 18 hours.

[Biggus]

betty,

You first - tell us all what standby the duty SAR Nimrod MR2 was on in the final years of the fleet.




And why the ??!! when all I did was inject some facts into a thread running solely on conjecture.

[betty swallox]

Biggus. I'm not interested in raking up the facts of the past. The MR2 history has been aptly covered on various other threads, I'm sure you'll agree.

You claim to put "facts" on this thread re C-130 SAR commitment.

We DON'T have one. Fact.

[Biggus]

betty,

At the end of it's life the MR2 fleet had an aircraft on 2hrs notice to fly, for either SAR or other possible scenarios I won't discuss here. The standby crew had long stopped staying overnight in respective messes, and were at home on pagers.



TODAY the UK has a C-130J on a similar standby 24/7 for a variety of tasks, once again I won't go into them on this forum, but one of them is SAR provision.

I'm sorry if this FACT doesn't fit with your personal agenda, but it is nevertheless a FACT.

I have already stated my reservations about the capability of this asset to conduct SAR, but it is available to be tasked, and denying it won't alter that FACT!

[betty swallox]

I have no agenda. And again, I resent your tone. And your tone towards me previously in other threads. I am simply trying to point out that we are in a poor state long range SAR wise. As per the question at the start of the thread.
If you wish to remain in cloud cuckoo land believing we have a Herc on 24 hour standby, able to conduct LR SAR, you're perfectly at will to believe that. I'd have at least thought with your previous military service, you'd have an amount of scepticism about this claim.

[Cheeks]

Quick question if I may.

How many airliners have crashed in the mid-atlantic in the last couple of years? How many passengers survived these crashes?

[Tinman74]

I think some one needs to have a sleep.

[Biggus]

The UK has a variety of aircraft on 24hr standby, such as AD fighters, a tanker, a Chinook, to name but a few.

With your "previous military experience", why do you find it so hard to believe that we have a C-130J on 24 hr standby, albeit as I said with a reaction time in terms of a couple of hours?

In the days of the C-130K fleet we used to have 3 aircraft on 24/7 standby for a variety of roles. As I have repeatedly stated, just one possible, and not the primary, use of the standby C-130J is SAR provision. It is there availbale for use.

Perhaps you'd like to ring the ARCC at Kinloss and tell them to take it off their tote page, and delete their procedures for calling it out?

[Party Animal]

Biggus,


it is nevertheless a FACT....


Not any more my old china. HQ Air have declared that we do not do long-range airborne SAR full stop. For a variety of reasons that I won't go into but the capability no longer exists.


Options are to ask allies for help (a mitigation factor for removal of the MRA4) if you need an airborne requirement or alternatively, adopt the 'Titanic' approach and ask the nearest ship you can find from AIS to go and investigate.

[Biggus]

PA,

That's news to me. When did that change? Recently?

Who provides coverage in the Falklands then?

[Biggus]

It would appear it's time for me to admit that my information is out of date, apologies to all.....

.....maybe I should make that phone call to the ARCC!

[dragartist]

I can't believe there are no current C130J folks contributing to this forum. I packed in 2 years ago. Will the black Omega be around if I tell you that one of the last things I was involved on the fringes of was ASRA for the J.


The prime aim was for the Falklands when the K retired. The aircraft also had ship spot AIS fitted. (the HEDIT integrated it)


The Boscombe Down (Q2) trials officer was a rather short ex Army type with years of AD experience (BL). 57R completed all the airdrop trials including smoke floats and liferaft containers. The Canadian exchange officer on the Herc PT was the Project Officer. We had a few issues with respect to DAs / Support Authority for the kit. (It had fallen through the cracks when the S&AD PT disintegrated).


All of the wooden racks that JATE had designed (that were never ever supported by anyone) were not used on the J. Thank god for the simple P strap.


I would be most surprised if it never got Released to Service. If it did not then someone should get their @rse kicked for wasting money on trials without a roadmap to service.


Here is another thought- If an aircraft ditched mid Atlantic could the SPAG not offer assistance. They are held at VHR with all the kit in the sheds in front of the OM @ Brize.


Why is this such a secret this day and age.

[betty swallox]

Sending you 10p, Biggus

[alfred_the_great]

Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447)

This is what happens when an airplane crashes mid-atlantic; no one survives.

[VX275]

JATE had a new version of ASRA on which trials were conducted in 1988 from a Herc CMk 1K. It used 3 MS10 tied together rather than the single dinghy and two supply containers. The trials went well although on the two occasions live rafts were used two out of the three inflated inverted (I never moaned about righting a dinghy during drills after that).
Whilst the system worked it never got CA release as the powers that be got all excited about the flares and smoke floats being stowed next to the fuel tanks in the fuselage. Ultimately CA Release wasn't given due the fact that the CMk1K didn't have one.:ugh:

[tucumseh]

HQ Air have declared that we do not do long-range airborne SAR full stop.

I suspect HQ Air think we need long range SAR, but have been encouraged at a political/VSO level not to voice this, because to do so and not be able to provide it would raise the thorny question of a public inquiry and criminal charges over Nimrod. Probably involving those who are "encouraging" HQ Air......

[Bert Angel]

Betty,
Within the constraints of an open forum, actually, Biggus is correct.
And I can personally vouch for the quality of the training!
As to the platform, it might not be optimised for the role but in slightly modified form it serves for the USCG....

[betty swallox]

Thanks. That's useful. I never said anything about the quality of the training or the air vehicle. My comments were based on the availability of the asset. Read what Party Animal wrote.

[Pontius Navigator]

Maybe it doesn't happen very often these days and we don't have that many aircraft anyway, but SAR was not only for civil airlines but military aircraft.

I am sure it was a great comfort to the Lightning Joe over the Norwegian Sea and later the F4s to know that they could expect a SAR from UK or Norway within 2 hours.

Now a Tiffy pilot could be quite lonely before a P3 gets there from Iceland (?), Norway, or Lakenheath(?).

[M609]

It's a long way from Andøya/ENAN for the RNoAF P-3C and P-3Ns. Approx 1000+ nm They are on alert, not sure how long lead time.

[Lima Juliet]

Personally, I never gave flying fig about there being an MPA on my fast jet trails. I was more concerned to have a working beacon, dinghy and being somewhere near the shipping lanes. There was always enough gas for the rest of the fomation to get a good fix on me and then divert into Halifax or Keflavik and so the 'Search' was always unlikely.

Unless it's a seaplane, having an MPA overhead eating dairy cream sponge whilst I freeze my knackers off doesn't cut the 'rescue' portion. Furthermore, my hands would not be able to cope with ASRA after about 30 minutes and so an MPA turning up a few hours later would probably either find me bobbing about in a little dinghy waiting for a ship or bobbing face down making a good impression of an iceberg.

Now for 'search' in this airliner tragedy, then I get it and believe that the flexibility/speed/reach of an airborne asset over a ship is far more superior. But for 'rescue' - no chance, even as little as 30 minutes after the accident in the North Atlantic. For that you need a ship or a seaplane (as long as the sea is flat enough).

LJ

[thunderbird7]

All fair points but tell that to the folks we dropped ASRA gear to over the years...

[Lima Juliet]

TB7

Could you tell us what shape the ASRA people were in when you dropped it? I suspect they were either in/on sinking/upturned boats/ships or sitting on some flotsam (or is it jetsam?)?

I can't recall there ever being an ASRA drop to FJ aircrew during a trail?

LJ

[TBM-Legend]

Two RAAF AP-3C's heading right now to the Malaysian B777 crash area for SAR ops. MPA assets are essential except if your Switzerland !

[Surplus]

The likelihood of losing an aircraft @ 30W, with survivors in the water is extremely low, the impact of such an event would be extremely high. I hope that people who say 'we don't need or can't afford a long range SAR asset', will make themselves available to explain to grieving relatives, at Heathrow, that nothing can be done to locate their loved ones.

As seen in the tragic Malaysian Airline incident, ships aren't always the answer, to not have a long range SAR asset to cover our area of responsibility is nothing short of criminal.

[betty swallox]

Ah Leon. If only you'd mentioned that years ago, we wouldn't have bothered.

Now you mention it, all I "gave a fig" about on SAR trails, was the exotic locations it took us to. Thanks for Bermuda, Montevideo, and Lajes was always fun.

What I did give a fig about was bantering y'all when you were moaning about needing a pee and enjoying your one sandwich box, when I was on my third chicken curry.

Oh, and a fig was given when the Harrier mate, trying to look cool in front of us, taxing with his canopy open, allowed his maps to get sucked out, and into the veritable Pegasus, allowing us all an extra 5 days at said location....

Thanks.

[Jet In Vitro]

LJ, we also practised dropping to FJ crews already in single seat life rafts. The aim being to provide bigger more comfortable accommodation with extras food and water. Having done several trails where there were no surface contacts within 200nm of track (I suspect the actual figure was much bigger but we only conducted a track search).

Given the choice of days in a MS10 or a single seat life raft in the S Atlantic I know which I would have chosen.

[Heathrow Harry]

How many survivable crashes are there in mid-ocean?

In say the last 30 years??

how much will it cost to be able to get a helicopter or a flying boat to them (a Nimrod isn't an awful lot of help if you are in the water as you still need a slow boat to come and pick you up

Our elders and betters have decided we don't need/can't afford such capacity and I think they are correct

[chopper2004]

If I may interject with a view from the rotary wing side. Pave Hawks relocated down here due to withdrawal from Kelfavik , that the only SAR assets available up there were and now a pair do AS332L1 and As365N of the Icelandic Coastguard. (iIRc an a/c crashed?).

Beyond that the nearest and dearest SAR asset probably at Stornoway and further west is of course at Halifax.

Coverage wise and response time / time on station for that part of the North Atlantic does not appear ideal at a glance.

Hypothetically (assuming there was no economic crisis , abundance of resources and more work for our shipyards) if there was a SAR framework similar to the the Jigsaw on the North Sea, with say couple of dozen rig type platforms with S-92 / EC225 types spread out across what would be termed as the more vulnerable parts of the Atlantic in particular where the transatlantic routes were / major shipping lanes.

The other idea which comes into my head w.r.t to the MPA problem would be to have a STOL platform based (preferably with flattop crews and those with CV experience ) on an old aircraft carrier or two operated by a commercial company purely for SAR to offset the costs to sail up and down the Atlantic. Oh and of course have rotary wing assets aboard.

Any thoughts here ?

[Pontius Navigator]

Furthermore, my hands would not be able to cope with ASRA after about 30 minutes

Your 30 minute estimate is probably a gross exaggeration for NA in winter unless you were wearing immersion glove. Did you always wear them?

At Mountbatten our co-pilot, deputed to rescue the unconscious body was totally incapacitated once we got him in the MS dinghy. I had immersion gloves and retained use of my fingers for about the half hour.

I don't know if you realised but from East Anglia to Loring in winter there was more chance of landing in arctic conditions rather than maritime.

My earlier point however was not aimed at trails but QRA. An ASR drop, even if the ejectee could not reach and board, would make a better visual marker than a SS.

[Jimlad1]

I am a huge fan of MPA for conducting certain tasks, but I don't think we are being credible when we think of long range SAR for crashed aircraft as one of them. The chances of anyone surviving such an incident are close to zero, and even if they did it would be unlikely they'd survive long enough in any poor weather long enough for the aircraft to drop a liferaft - personally I doubt they'd survive the longer exposure needed for a recovery vessel to reach them.

Yes we can not send someone out to find the wreckage, but given how rarely aircraft go down in the north atlantic these days, I struggle to justify retaining an ability to tell someone a few hours faster than would otherwise be the case the blatantly obvious statement that their loved one is dead. Sorry to sound blunt but that is what it boils down to.

Finally, and tangentally. I was talking to an ex Nimrod guy the other day who mentioned Royal SAR - when did the RAF stop doing that task?

[Tower Controller]

There is an EH101 Cormorant Helo on SAR Standby at Gander Newfoundland on 30 minute alert 365 24/7. And the SAR standby C130's on this side are in Greenwood, NS not Halifax, there are alos P3's there that are SAR tasked as needed.

[lj101]

Tower

Good info thanks - we have been briefed for years that the C130 was in Halifax, info provided from our internal resources.
I've found the link here;
Halifax Search & Rescue | Canada North America | National Defence | Canadian Armed Forces (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-canada-north-america-current/halifax-sar.page?)

Is this correct still?

[Axel-Flo]

Loads of conjecture and of course there is always the "what if" or "but perhaps"
At the end of the day there is always the chance that an Art Stacey of the heavy airline brigade will pull off a blinder and make the Ex 2 engined....now glider on an ETOPS route land on water....
Personally lets hope boats can get to it, give the people some chance at least. Locating it? Of course the lack of any MRT assets for our part of the Atlantic is has has been said...well, damn near criminal.
Personally I remember getting as far as 14 1/2 W in a Sea King, without the Nimrod types (and their DCS consuming contest en route) our 12 minutes on scene would never have been enough to find the B---dy Spanish Trawler in the first place since he was 18 miles from the datum we were given. Also thanks to all the crew working on Daltons with wind applied etc our route back to Glasgow down wind rather than else where was a great confidence boost that our sums were right........and that was including an outbound refuel in Benbecula.....

Truth is we have to hope if it ever happens we really do pull a miracle out of the almost empty bag we now seem to be holding.....:sad:

[betty swallox]

Ah. More wonderful insight into "the world" by Heathrow Harry. How I've missed it....

[HAS59]

If you want to see what an MPA can do to assist in a rescue at sea, in fact did do, read the MAIB report on the sinking of the Irving Forest at 28 west.

The report says "... the arrival of the aircraft and the accuracy of the life-raft drop was crucial in saving the lives of the 2nd Engineer's wife, the Chief Officer and a seaman who had all been swept overboard ..."

I have the photos but can't figure out how to post them ...

It is a team game - or was - aircraft and ships working together to help others.

I don't give a fig who thinks otherwise ...

[Lima Juliet]

IRVING FOREST had been listing for days and so the Grimrod had plenty of time to get there and sit there. Also the people swept over the side were in immersion survival suits - that bought them prescious time. MPA's loitering over sinking ships is a completely different game than aircraft in distress. For an airliner, unless you're going to shadow every single one across on the NATS then you will be dropping ASRA to corpses.

Please do not think I am criticising your fantastic work during the IRVING FOREST disaster - I am not. It's just that I do not believe that an MPA is much use for airliner's coming down (which this thread is all about).

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

Given the right conditions there is indeed a slight chance of post-crash survival. There was the woman who survived the crash off the African coast. The Potomac crash is another case of a successful ditching.

Jimlad is correct in stating that the probability of a ditching is vanishingly small and that the cost of maintaining a long range search capability is huge. The answer therefore appears to be one of cost-benefit economics.

The military task (trails) is not what it was; the civilian risk is low; the value of a human life therefore is deemed less than the cost of maintaining SAR cover.

The prime purpose of the fixed-wing SAR platform was search. The prime purpose of the RW platform was rescue. We could then make a similar argument to disband the military RW SAR role for the same reasons.

Oh, we are :(

[YellaRednGrey]

Sadly, ships are about the only means of achieving long-range SAR within the UK SAR Region these days. All ocean going ships are required to render assistance under SOLAS (Safety of life at Sea Convention 1974) and the International Convention on Maritme SAR. This of course depends on a ship happening to be in the right area at the right time. Now the bad news - very few ships have any means of launching a rescue craft or have hatches near the waterline. The 'S' in SAR might be very loosely covered but the 'R' is extremely unlikely :\

KMAGYOYO (Kiss my ass George, you're on your own!!)

[seadrills]

Given the right conditions there is indeed a slight chance of post-crash survival. There was the woman who survived the crash off the African coast. The Potomac crash is another case of a successful ditching.

Jimlad is correct in stating that the probability of a ditching is vanishingly small and that the cost of maintaining a long range search capability is huge. The answer therefore appears to be one of cost-benefit economics.

The military task (trails) is not what it was; the civilian risk is low; the value of a human life therefore is deemed less than the cost of maintaining SAR cover.

The prime purpose of the fixed-wing SAR platform was search. The prime purpose of the RW platform was rescue. We could then make a similar argument to disband the military RW SAR role for the same reasons.

Oh, we are :(

Don't tell that to the Lynx / wildcat or Merlin crews.

Military SAR will remain a core capability of RN helicopter crews.

[Jayand]

Its not a very good scenario to be honest, anybody lucky enough to survive said crash would certainly be dead by the time even the fastest MPA could arrive on scene.
Estimates for a fit, uninjured person wearing a fully functioning and undamaged immersion suit in the North Atlantic are measured in minutes not hours, what chance of survival does a likely injured unprotected person or persons have?
None!

[TBM-Legend]

Many of the RAAF missions are looking for boats lost at sea or illegal aliens and the distances here are enormous compared to the UK environment . The find bit is nearly as important as the rescue bit as in the current SAR near Vietnam . We realty need to locate the wreckage and if possible establish what happened otherwise on your next jaunt across the pond on BA you could have the same experience !

[Party Animal]

I may be wrong but I believe that dealing with non mil SAR out to 30 West belongs to the Dept for Transport. Therefore, it is their problem if they do not have the necessary resources and nothing to do with MOD.

Oh, and one for Leon. Nimrod topcover for SAR trails was all about time. Had you banged out of your F3 on the way from ASI to MPA, which incidentally is nowhere near any shipping lanes, an MR2 would have followed you down, marked your on-top very quickly and dropped ASRA kit to give you a much better chance of survival for the number of days spent bobbing around the Southern Ocean (protection,location,water, edible candles, lots of PLB capability, fishing kit etc.) Using gas from the tanker and the fantastic Searchwater radar, it would then have searched for the nearest vessel to come and pick you up. All this probably happening before news of your ejection had been reacted to by the responsible SAR RCC. You may remember the F3 that had a Mayday, 1000nm north of ASI in 1997. Just made it back to ASI as the gearbox melted en-route!

[thunderbird7]

Also,LJ, you are talking about 'just giving up'. If you are (one is) comfortable with telling families and the nation in general "we don't know what happened or where it is, you'll just have to wait a few days until a ship gets there" then that's fine.

Equally, what if a dead survivor were found in an airliner slideraft after a few days?

[Tourist]

People have to be realistic about this and do a reasonable cost benefit analysis.

The simple fact is that long range fixed wing SAR assets are a stupid waste of money if the SAR capability is anything other than a fortunate add on to a military capability for example the Nimrod.

In medicine, NICE makes judgements as to whether the cost of the medicine/operation is worth it.

In other words, there is a price on life, and long range SAR doesn't even come close to making economic sense. If you want to save lives, use the same money and build hospitals and you would save an order of magnitude more lives.

Incidentally, rotary SAR is also silly for the same reasons, but not quite as bad.

[thunderbird7]

All good arguments but what about the SAR cover the Aussies give to all the yacht racing in the Southern Ocean? I know they were getting a bit fed up at the number of 'Bullimores' they had to pull out of the sea but it still goes on and they still rescue people. And what about Mountain Rescue Teams? Unfunded by government in the UK but tirelessly going out to rescue lost souls 'enjoying themselves' in the hills? Do we just abandon people in the hills?

What do we provide SAR cover for and what not? I would suggest a basic cover of our sea areas is not unreasonable - people don't make a cost benefit risk analysis when they buy an airline ticket, they just go!!

SAR does airliners,ships,yachts,military,oil rigs (think airborne co-ordination for Piper Alpha) and lots more besides. A C130 can search and drop liferafts but probably doesn't (I don't know) have as comprehensive suite of sensors or comms to co-ordinate a large task. Being 'on the spot' for co-ordination is invaluable and as an argument is being translated to closure of HM Coastguard Stations at the moment - loss of local knowledge etc.

The reality of airliners is that survivability of a ditching is low but some may survive and if dropping ASRA kit to them gives them a chance until a ship or helo arrives, then the mission is accomplished. Nothing gets there in anything like reasonable time with a fighting chance of searching for and locating survivors or wreckage like a LRMPA.

[Heathrow Harry]

"Ah. More wonderful insight into "the world" by Heathrow Harry. How I've missed it...."

Betty you may not like it but people have to carry out cost benefit analysis

spending hundreds of millions of dollars for a capability required once in over 30 years just isn't going to happen

I'm always willing to help you readjust to the outside world from whatever bubble you are in

[betty swallox]

HH. I really do take your point.
However, re-read Party Animal's post.
We are defaulting on this commitment (DoT-wise). That's the crime.

[Sandy Parts]

re that one "You may remember the F3 that had a Mayday, 1000nm north of ASI in 1997. Just made it back to ASI as the gearbox melted en-route!"
I was one of the radar operators on the MR2 for that event - when we popped up to the long range scale to look for ships - there were none in any direction!
I seem to recall the (German?) nav doing the comms on the F3 was decidedly interested in the equipment we could drop to him and our predicted loiter time during his slowly descending transit back to ASI.... We realised how warm it was getting in the F3 when he told us he could no longer write info using his chinagraph as it had melted :eek:
Luckily the F3 held together long enough to make it (and then just clear the runway - we were holding off until he was safely landed. If the F3 couldn't taxi - it was going to be bulldozed clear!!).

[Jet In Vitro]

HH, using your logic we should get rid of AD fighter ac. They have not been used in anger for over 30 years whilst just about every other ac in the RAF inventory has.

[Tower Controller]

(http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13944599104866&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F535583-long-range-sar-3.html&v=1&libId=10f5b093-113c-4adb-b360-d725e4f76456&out=http%3A%2F%2Fapicdn.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Fformat%3 Dgo%26key%3D1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d%26loc%3Dhttp%25 3A%252F%252Fwww.pprune.org%252Fmilitary-aircrew%252F535583-long-range-sar-3.html%26out%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.forces.gc.ca%252Fen%25 2Foperations-canada-north-america-current%252Fhalifax-sar.page%253F%26ref%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pprune.org%252F military-aircrew%252F535583-long-range-sar-4.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F535583-long-range-sar-4.html&title=LONG%20RANGE%20SAR%20-%20Page%203%20-%20PPRuNe%20Forums&txt=Halifax%20Search%20%26amp%3B%20Rescue%20%7C%20Canada%20N orth%20America%20%7C%20National%20Defence%20%7C%20Canadian%2 0Armed%20Forces)Tower

Good info thanks - we have been briefed for years that the C130 was in Halifax, info provided from our internal resources.
I've found the link here;
Halifax Search & Rescue | Canada North America | National Defence | Canadian Armed (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13944599104866&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F535583-long-range-sar-3.html&v=1&libId=10f5b093-113c-4adb-b360-d725e4f76456&out=http%3A%2F%2Fapicdn.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Fformat%3 Dgo%26key%3D1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d%26loc%3Dhttp%25 3A%252F%252Fwww.pprune.org%252Fmilitary-aircrew%252F535583-long-range-sar-3.html%26out%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.forces.gc.ca%252Fen%25 2Foperations-canada-north-america-current%252Fhalifax-sar.page%253F%26ref%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pprune.org%252F military-aircrew%252F535583-long-range-sar-4.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F535583-long-range-sar-4.html&title=LONG%20RANGE%20SAR%20-%20Page%203%20-%20PPRuNe%20Forums&txt=Halifax%20Search%20%26amp%3B%20Rescue%20%7C%20Canada%20N orth%20America%20%7C%20National%20Defence%20%7C%20Canadian%2 0Armed%20Forces)

Yeah that's correct the Rescue Co ordination Centre that manages all the action is in Halifax but the aircraft are based in Gander and Greenwood,

Cormorant's in Gander and C130's, P3's and Cormorant's in Greenwood

Tc

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't tell that to the Lynx / wildcat or Merlin crews.

Military SAR will remain a core capability of RN helicopter crews.

Seadrills, it was generally accepted that the fixed wing SAR could provide a quicker response, search a larger area, and enable the rescue aircraft to go direct to the scene thus maximising its time on station actually effecting a rescue.

[SASless]

HH, using your logic we should get rid of AD fighter ac


If the Budget Cuts keep coming.....you will succeed in doing just that!:(

[tucumseh]

Tourist said;


In other words, there is a price on life, and long range SAR doesn't even come close to making economic sense.
and I tend to agree with him. In a very old thread this cost of a life was discussed and an MoD paper produced that placed it at £4M per life at about 2000 prices. It was the C130 XV179 thread I think, when discussing the refusal to fit ESF.


There are many MoD projects that have had to make this decision, in recent years most of them Army/Infantry related. Try managing a programme when the beancounters are telling you to conduct annual trials for umpteen years to establish a statistically valid sample proving how many lives you'll save. While at the same time fielding questions from the same BCs as to why the programme is slipping. And trying to work out why your trails cannot be held as the same BCs have chopped your funding and there's no trials troops available anyway. A very real example by the way. If only the Service Inquiries and Coroners knew....


Sometimes best, easier and cheaper to bite the bullet and spend the money; which, by the way, we have in plenty if only MoD would stop wasting it. Which they steadfastly refuse to.


But that doesn't excuse the probability that, in this case, the Government continues to be signatory to an agreement to provide coverage some way West of Ireland. Has this obligation been formally ditched?

[Pontius Navigator]

Tuc, we had a penny pinching exercise back in the 70s too. My ex-leader, now at Group, was seeking views on removing the attack camera and ASR capability from the Nimrod. He asked when these had been used.

I was able to tell him how we had converted a Posssub 4 to Certsub when we saw the submerged Foxtrot on the film. Then at almost the same time another crew off his old squadron dropped both ASR and all dinghy pairs at the Fastnet race.

[QTRZulu]

Finally, and tangentally. I was talking to an ex Nimrod guy the other day who mentioned Royal SAR - when did the RAF stop doing that task?

Jimlad, I think this was late 91 or early/mid 92 as I remember following Betty around Africa for a mighty fine 5 weeks carrying out Royal SAR during Sept/Oct 91.

[The B Word]

we should get rid of AD fighter ac. They have not been used in anger for over 30 years whilst just about every other ac in the RAF inventory has

We have - there are no AD fighters left! As of the end of the month we will have 4x multi-role Typhoon Sqns and 2x GR4 Bomber Sqns. That is it!!! :eek::eek:

[dragartist]

I don't necessarily hold with some of the suggestions that some of this long range SAR capability comes at additional cost.


not that much difference between a submarine requiring assistance or an airliner down if there was chance of any survivors.


see the report in the Torygraph from last month.


Elite Navy rescue team always on call to help submariners - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10648941/Elite-Navy-rescue-team-always-on-call-to-help-submariners.html)


These folks also have their own web page (bit old)


Submarine Parachute Assistance Group (http://www.subescapetraining.org/SPAG.html)


I think they may have some bigger boats these days.


If Art had put the beast down further out and not within reach of rotary I am sure he would have been grateful for these guys help.

[seadrills]

Don't tell that to the Lynx / wildcat or Merlin crews.

Military SAR will remain a core capability of RN helicopter crews.

Seadrills, it was generally accepted that the fixed wing SAR could provide a quicker response, search a larger area, and enable the rescue aircraft to go direct to the scene thus maximising its time on station actually effecting a rescue.

I totally agree with you. The point I was trying to make was that some people think that military SAR is being phased out. Not true. The Royal Navy will retain a rotary wing SAR capability.

[1771 DELETE]

I feel some of you maybe missing the point of what a Nimrod bought to the SAR mission that a C130 or any other presently available UK asset lacks.
In my 30 odd years, i think i dropped ASR sets on less than a handful of occasions.
What was much more important was the relatively quick flying time of the aircraft, to reach a datum before the Seaking, perform a search and vector in the helicopter, who at PLE, did the lift and headed straight home, At max range he doesn't have time to search.
Also, the Nimrod with a trained 12 man crew , (large disasters practiced in the simulator), 2 HF boxes, 4 V/UHF boxes and an FM radio, had the ability to control multiple assets and this is where the Nimrod shone. Alexander Keiland and piper alpha being two incidents that come to mind. With 10 helicopters in the area, multiple ships, the coastguard and the RCC to talk to, the mission could just not be done without the endurance, sensors, radios and crew size that the Nimrod provided.
Dropping an ASR was just one small part of the mission.
Of course, the SAR crew were also on stand by for other missions, mostly covert, that came up at very short notice but that was a bonus of having such a capable and multi role aircraft available on one hour stand by. I probably launched on more Ops missions rather than SAR missions while holding SAR.

[PFMG]

Also, the Nimrod with a trained 12 man crew

Wasn't it a 13 man crew?

Ahh wait a minute, you said trained - obviously that doesn't include the AEO who was merely there to keep the glare off the Tac screen.

[Surplus]

Ahh wait a minute, you said trained - obviously that doesn't include the AEO who was merely there to keep the glare off the Tac screen.

"Paddle switch AEO!"

AEO: "Go ahead Paddle Switch."

The old ones are the best.

[reynoldsno1]

Two RAAF AP-3C's heading right now to the Malaysian B777 crash area for SAR ops
RNZAF P3 not far behind .....

[nimbev]

1771delete saidI feel some of you maybe missing the point of what a Nimrod bought to the SAR missionSpot on 1771!!! I totally agree with you. It is the ability to co-ordinate a large scale and complex tactical situation which would be beyond the capabilities of most other non MPA aircraft. Dropping an ASR is the easy part of SAR, it is the bit leading up to it which is difficult.

[Phoney Tony]

I believe the thought is that the E3 would co ordinate a big SAR operation. How often they actual rehearse this complex task and understand the maritime environment and SAR/ Coastguard organisation is debatable. Also the capabilities of the asserts they would be 'controlling'.


We used to practise the flying skills regularly. Complete SAR simulator exercises and do it for real regularly.

Nuff said.

[Jayand]

I don't really think the "nobody can do it like we did" argument works.
If it's a role the E3 is expected to do, and I don't know that it is, then they will be practising it in the sim regularly. Also the kipper fleet did do top cover reasonably regularly for single helo sar rescues it didnt however do the large scale rescue with multi agencies very often at all, thankfully. So although it was practiced in the sim, the vast majority of crews had no "Real" experience of it. I see no reason at all why an E3 couldn't perform that role.

[TBM-Legend]

Two RAAF AP-3C's heading right now to the Malaysian B777 crash area for SAR ops
RNZAF P3 not far behind .....

Indian AF C-130J and Indian Navy P-8I plus some Dornier 228 Indian Coast Guard machines have joined the search for the B777 as well....

Long range SAR is a good thing. The AO is not always predictable..

[Phoney Tony]

Jayland,

Over the years there have been a number of complex SAR missions. Not all are headline grabbers, mainly because the outcomes were good.

I am glad the E3 is doing such a great job.

[Surplus]

Quote:
Two RAAF AP-3C's heading right now to the Malaysian B777 crash area for SAR ops
RNZAF P3 not far behind .....
Indian AF C-130J and Indian Navy P-8I plus some Dornier 228 Indian Coast Guard machines have joined the search for the B777 as well....

Long range SAR is a good thing. The AO is not always predictable..

Somebody please tell these nations that they are wasting their money having all these long range SAR assets.

Hold on, don't we give the Indians financial aid? Perhaps we could borrow some P8Is

[Lima Juliet]

I believe the thought is that the E3 would co ordinate a big SAR operation. How often they actual rehearse this complex task and understand the maritime environment and SAR/ Coastguard organisation is debatable.

Sarcasm on...

Oh my God, with a couple of helos and a few boats (on primary RADAR and AIS) how would the mission crews cope with vectoring them to the target area? Especially with its various radios, datalinks and satcom?

Sarcasm off...

The E-3 has proven that it can vector Coastguard cutters and helicopters to intercept small boats carrying stuff that isn't good for your health in the past - I'm sure they'd cope! :ugh:

LJ

[TBM-Legend]

Now I see they claim this 777 climbed to FL450...after descending to FL230!!!!

They theory that they're parked on some dusty airfield doesn't seem good to me in that mobile phones and cameras seem to be everywhere . Not to mention the penetration of someone's airspace without being noticed .

(AEO = Airborne Eating Officer)

[Phoney Tony]

LJ,

The ability to vector a few contacts falls far short of the requirement.

Also AIS is not fitted to ac or fitted to vessels under 300T. There are also other things which do not have AIS which are floating around the seas and oceans.

The capabilities you quote are true to a degree but you ignore the the short falls.

[Lima Juliet]

Phoney

Sorry mate, utter rot. The E-3 is perfectly capable in a 'high boy' role in a maritime scenario. However, I would agree that it is pants in a 'low boy' role unlike MPAs.

Of course AIS isn't fitted to aircraft, but Mode S is for the aircraft likely to be at and around 30W (which is what we are talking about). Also, there aren't that many small craft out there either, so most of the surface ships around 30W will be AIS capable. Anyway, the E-3's primary 'ping-pong divide by 2' RADAR is more than capable of seeing the type of ships/boats you get out at 30W and the likely sea-state.

So the E-3 is almost perfect for controlling a significant SAR op in the mid Atlantic. In that it can fly up to 11hrs+ unrefuelled, it can see everything it needs to see within a ~200nm radius, it has plenty of means of communicating to everyone it needs to and also has the benefit of having at least 2-3 ex-Nimrod mates on board to tap into their expertise if they need a SME.

Oh, and I say this from someone who spent a few years on the E-3. So in summary, the E-3 is no good at low level search and can"t drop ASRA but is excellent at controlling a maritime SAR op (the clue is in the name AWACS :ok:). However, it is perfect for directing one of the standby J models with an ASRA kit to the scene of the ditching.

LJ

[thunderbird7]

It couldn't see any of the helos flying in Bosnia either, from what I recall, which was about the only thing of interest flying there...

Using it as a stop-gap-find-a-job high level asset is fine but until the waves of Russian bombers come over the horizon again, it's a bit of a lost soul...

An MPA could do everything over the ocean that was required, except lift someone out of the water - that was the point.

[Phoney Tony]

LJ,

You pick your scenarios to fit the limited capability of the E3 in this role.

I can think of a whole range of scenarios which it can not do but this is not the place to expose them.

To control SAR you need a level of SA/ SU which you do not have. That's why you need a low boy. How far out is that support, at addition cost, available?

You can not rely on AIS, IFF, beacons and other systems from survivors or those that add to operational picture during a SAR mission. They assist but do not provide the full picture.

There are small aircraft and vessels at 30 W.

[Lima Juliet]

TB7

It couldn't see any of the helos flying in Bosnia either, from what I recall, which was about the only thing of interest flying there...

What rot. The only thing they couldn't see well was around Udbina due to the steep valleys and their direction. It was nothing to do with the E-3's RADAR performance against helicopters and more to do with the fact that electro-magnetic waves can't travel through rocks. Therefore, the Air Commander asked for a bespoke CAP in the area with fighters to look down this valley - ironically this was the CAP that Scott O'Grady was shot down on and the F3s had been covering for the previous 5 days...:eek:

Phoney

Fair enough mate. If there are survivors in the water and no sea vessels/helicopters to pick them up out at 30W then they're pretty well scr3w3d anyway.

LJ :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Thinking about it more. If there was an airliner down at 30W in Oceanic Airspace then this would be a truly international effort. The UK could do the following:

1. Send Tansor and probably Southern QRA to go and start looking.
2. Send the national standby C130J with an ASRA. Generate further C130 and C17 supportin longer term by cancelling other AT taskings.
3. Send a UK E-3 as top cover and control (as part of the NATO AEW Force they could also request a GK or FR E-3).
4. Send FFs and DDs with helos to area.
5. Longer term embark helos on OCEAN or LUSTY and send them. Both SH and SAR helos could be embarked.
6. Call the Irish Air Corps for CN235 MPA support.

That is before we even ask our cousins in Canada and USA for assistance with P3, P8 and AAR capable helos.

So do we need a new LR SAR asset? I would say 'no' because we have a lot of options and a dedicated LR SAR assetis guilding the lilly.

However, do we need an MPA to look after the UK nuclear detterent. I would say 'yes' because although DDs and FFs with pinging helos are OK, the extra utility of an MPA is sorely missed.

LJ

[Phoney Tony]

LJ,

How quickly could we muster all these assets especially the surface units?

I think you would be surprised how few, in sea worthy condition, are available at any one time?

How long will it take to get to the area of interest?


FJ searching at 30W? How much AAR effort to get there? I suggest they would be of little use once on station. Limited radar search capability (no AIS etc) and difficult to conduct a secure visual search - I doubt if a single seat pilot could do both. How long can they remain on station? Indeed how far from land are they allowed to go? A transit home from 30W on one engine would be interesting and a risk the grown ups would probably not be willing to take.

The assets you list have very limited ability to search large areas particularly in bad weather - high sea states and the Helos have trouble getting back on board. Low cloud base, 8/8 cover in old money, requires low level visual identification of small contacts and training.

We can call on our friends but the UK has a responsibility which we, as a rich country, should honour properly.

Good to see you are trying LJ but still no banana!

[thunderbird7]

What rot. The only thing they couldn't see well was around Udbina due to the steep valleys and their direction. It was nothing to do with the E-3's RADAR performance against helicopters and more to do with the fact that electro-magnetic waves can't travel through rocks.

Exactly! There were other folk (not on CAP) covering that department... ;)

By all means use the E3 as we still have several lying around - just don't preach it as the panacea...

[Lima Juliet]

TB7/PT

Given the alert states of some of these aircraft memtioned then you could have Typhoons to 30W within I estimate 2-3 hours with supporting AAR. That's not after a 2hr period of notice like the old kipper fleet - the little jets would be airborne within minutes few. During my days on FJ QRA operating many miles North of the UK is not a problem and using KEF as a div would be the way ahead. Typhoons sip gas at 40kft+ and so could be on scene waiting for AAR if the crash was closer than 30W (which is the worst case). If it's a nice day then they will probably see the devastation, debris and fuel slick. If it's a crap day then a descent to low level for a look-see is not exactly taxing - no need for pie-eaters in the left/right windows as you can see all around! As for flying down at low level, throw in the height hold and look out the window!!! In reality, they are probably not going to an airliner crash but helping find a boat/ship in immediate distress (which is not what we're discussing here).

As we've seen so sadly recently, time is of the essence to find wreckage/survivors of an airline crash. Therefore, waiting for Grimrod to load it's pies and sponge cakes and getting airborne after 2 hours plus the 3 hour transit to 30W would probably be a wasted journey for a downed passenger jet (which is what this thread was all about - remember?). The C130 or Irish CN235 would also probably be too late as most airlines rely on the slides on the aircraft for passenger survival - after 5-6 hours of floating exposed on a slide, in comfy clothes, probably injured due to the crap seat belts and being squeezed into the airliner like sardines whilst landing on mountainous swells found in the North Atlantic. I doubt there would be that many left (if at all). So in harsh reality - why would you bother? The passengers in an airliner are probably already dead before the dear old Grimrod has got the second pie in the galley.

So there you have it. I suspect we are already covering our responsibility as a 'rich nation' with plenty of assets that may be used in assistance. Trying to resurrect Grimrod Mk5 off the back of LR SAR is plain du,b and we would be far better off extoling the virtues of a MPA for it's real core tasks - protecting the deterent, protecting the (as yet undelivered) carriers, providing Maritime surface picture over the horizon, maritime air-surface attack and finally Maritime ISTAR. Those are the core roles of an MPA and not pretending to be a multi-engined version of Baywatch (Speedos not inlcuded!).

LJ :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Sorry about the size, but look at this Boeing 747 emergency card and look at the bottom and you will see what I mean about emergency slides! Not an MS10 or MS24 in sight! :eek:

http://airchive.com/galleries/lufthansa0512safetya_23205.jpg

By the way, I'm not singling out Lufthansa here - all the airlines do this on their big jets!

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

And here is an A380...:eek:

http://www.sollerthoughts.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/qf380-2.jpg

[Guernsey Girl II]

LJ

You have spent too long around FCs or ABMs (or have they changed the name to Death Star Operatives yet to keep it punchy).

E3s can see all they need to see, fast jets at 30W looking for the bits. I think you have been to some of the recent AMI group-thinks, only you thought it was all true!

[Lancman]

I fear that LJ is right when he says that an LRMP aicraft of the Nimrod's capabilities cannot be justified solely for ASR duties alone but I cannot allow his sarcastic “Therefore, waiting for Grimrod to load it's pies and sponge cakes and getting airborne after 2 hours plus the 3 hour transit to 30W would probably be a wasted journey for a downed passenger jet (which is what this thread was all about – remember?)” go unchallenged.


Does he really think that the aircraft was only pre-flight readied when a distress call came in? It would have been inspected and set up by the duty crew when they took over the SAR responsibility, and 20 minutes from fast asleep in your bunk at 2 in the morning to airborne and on your way was normal. Quicker in daylight.


And a visual search includes the area directly below the aircraft and for a short distance out a-beam, where only the beam look-outs in their bubble windows can monitor for long, long stretches of time.

[Phoney Tony]

LJ,

Buy back of the MPA is not based on its SAR role. SAR is a role an MPA can do along with many other capabilities, some of which have been recognised as being gaps which need to be filled.

Your scenario is again one which fits your assumed capability and lack of awareness.

Add a bit of reality. Is your FJ mate on Q authorised for this mission?

This implies some form of qualification and currency?

Let's add some realistic environmental conditions for 30W at northern latitudes in winter.

Night, sea state above 5+, 30Kts + on the surface. Cloud base 300ft solid up to 20'000ft.

Finding the wreckage of a downed airliner will be a challenge in this environment.

In the real world we also need to provide SAR for things as small as a man over board to a fixed oil rig and everything in between.

Each scenario has its own challenges which I could expand upon.

Also in addition whilst there may not be survivors from a big airline crash there is a requirement to conduct a board of inquiry so a datum for searches for the black boxes need to be established.


You have spent too much time in the company of ABM who really should stay in bunkers!

[PFMG]

In order to add a little credibility to the AIS statement from Phoney Tony.

AIS is not mandatory for vessels of less than 300 tonnes but is often fitted. At between £500 - £1000 for a set its a cheap way of not getting run down by a cargo ship whilst dicking around in your yacht or fishing vessel. At that price it's also cheaper than a surface search radar and easier to use too.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Typhoons doing SAR? Absolutely f'ing hilarious :D:rolleyes: Just what would be the point? Only someone who has never done SAR could possibly conceive that this would be viable!!


Still I suppose it's slightly more viable than drones doing SAR which will probably be the latest Air Force (LJ) fantasy.

And as for this:

So in harsh reality - why would you bother? . Well strangely enough, the 50-odd aircraft and 50-odd ships currently searching for a 777 would suggest that you would bother. Only right now the UK wouldn't bother as we don't have a capability to do so. I think LJ must have been on something stronger than ale whilst watching the 6N

[Wensleydale]

There would be no problem with an E-3 coordinating a major SAR effort - the sensors, communications and datalink fit are all fully compatible with what is needed. Indeed, the E-3 trains for and has been used operationally in overland CSAR. As high level (30,000 ft) top cover for C3, it has no equal. However, SAR visual search is impossible and the E-3 has no bomb bay to drop equipment from so it does have its limitations.


The main problem is that the E-3D is not scaled for SAR operations. There are insufficient airframes and trained crews to maintain NATO tasking and also to run a standby commitment. The E-3 takes quite a big lead time to get airborne without prior notice and therefore could probably only be useful if already in the vicinity. I will add (and I have stated this on many other threads) that the E-3D is tasked by NATO and the RAF does not have the authority to routinely place an E-3 on standby for SAR (ask the SOs who used to ring Waddington to ask for an E-3 to be placed on QRA to be told to contact Force Command at SHAPE where it was regularly refused because there was an E-3A on alert at GK).


The E-3D has successfully achieved maritime tasks, including counter drugs and SAR in the past - it is just an impractical aircraft for SAR standby commitment - technically, operationally, and currently financially. It could be used in such a role, but it would take a big increase in funding, training, and resources to make it effective.

[Lima Juliet]

Oh do keep up 007...

Typhoons doing SAR? Absolutely f'ing hilarious

When did I say that Typhoons would do the whole SAR thing. I'm just saying that if you want some eyes and ears in a disaster area quick then UK QRA can be used - this would be the first part of the Search. However, just like the Grimrod, there is no possibility of Rescue!!!

I've been asked to go look for missing sailing boats and an Army Patrol in the Falklands in a Tornado. At the end of the day, if someone is in trouble you would use any available asset to help. I seem to remember that a CASTLE class did the rescue of the sailing boat and that the Army Patrol that we found was picked up by a Chinook.

Oh, and the authorisation is broad and planning is done 'on the hoof' on QRA for a variety of missions. In days of old there were 2 in the jet doing it, but these days just one - however the FCs on frequency provide valuable resource for airborne replanning!

Yes, Wensleydale, I agree wholeheartedly. However, if we had an airliner go down mid Atlantic, I suspect that the NAEW FC would authorise an E-3 to be there pretty sharpish.

LJ

[thunderbird7]

Quote:
So in harsh reality - why would you bother?
. Well strangely enough, the 50-odd aircraft and 50-odd ships currently searching for a 777 would suggest that you would bother. Only right now the UK wouldn't bother as we don't have a capability to do so. I think LJ must have been on something stronger than ale whilst watching the 6N

Exactly. And my whole point of starting this thread. Britain will look a right bunch of dickheads if we got ourselves into this scenario. People DO and ARE bothered and it won't be solved by a Typhoon pilot fannying around in fantasyland at 30W at 200'. We all know you can fly at low level and see bad guys at meninge miles but this is about a methodical, long and laborious task that at the moment, has been going on for over a week.

And i wouldn't be the man i am today without all those pies...

[Wensleydale]

Yes, Wensleydale, I agree wholeheartedly. However, if we had an airliner go down mid Atlantic, I suspect that the NAEW FC would authorise an E-3 to be there pretty sharpish.


What E-3? FC refused to allow CinC Strike to keep an E-3 on permanent QRA standby in the early days of the aircraft, and without an aircraft and crew allocated then the ability of Waddington to get a serviceable E-3 and full crew airborne at short notice is very limited (unless the availability requirement is increased, in which case much more cash would need to be invested). In theory, the E-3D can carry out the task - in practise, it will need much more investment for other than opportunity tasking for an already airborne aircraft.

[Sun Who]

The OP raised the scenario of an airliner ditching at 30W.
This scenario constitutes a Mass Rescue Operation (http://www.international-maritime-rescue.org/index.php/projects/mass-rescue).
I recall attending a large, high level, well attended, international SAR conference some years ago (probably over 10) that discussed responses to MRO. The conference concluded that no country was well placed to deal with an MRO, particularly that of an airliner ditching at range (as opposed to a sinking ship).
Delegates were brigaded into syndicates and played out scenarios to explore the issues. There was a reasonable cadre of UK RAF Nimrod and SARF attendees (of which I was one). After spending two days with our international colleagues exploring how such a scenario would be managed, it became very clear to all that, other than in a limited number of very narrow circumstances, a good outcome for an airliner ditching at range (even with rapid MPA response and rapid location) was unlikely.
At the risk of over simplifying the challenges (we did a fair bit of maths and plotting over the week) the main problems are not associated with location but with the inability to either drop enough ASRA (or ASRAesque) equipment or to actually recover enough people. Once you're in the water your stuffed (if you're really lucky and get into one of the airliner's liferafts you may do better).
Assuming a passenger capacity for a 777 of 300 or so people (it's more likely to be higher) and then divide that by the number of liferafts you need to drop. Multiply that by the number of aircraft needed to carry them.

The only good outcome is if there is surface traffic nearby with the capacity to assist. For MRO at range, other than post-hoc location, air capability is pretty helpless really.

Sun

[Lima Juliet]

Wensleydale

From 2007 I know, but there was an E-3D supporting this mission reported in the Torygraph. It was not a NATO tasked jet and we held it on 60-90 minutes standby for it (depending on what the MC required). That is well after the 'early days of E-3 and STC'.

RAF jets intercept eight Russian bombers - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562438/RAF-jets-intercept-eight-Russian-bombers.html)

Sun Who

Well said. :D:D A 30W airliner ditching only needs an MPA to help with everyone else to find bodies and wreckage!

LJ

[betty swallox]

So, for all the naysayers about an MPA/MMA. It's disgraceful that we can't help. From the bbc...

"They are also asking countries to provide assistance in the search for the plane, including satellite data and analysis, ground-search capabilities, and maritime and air assets."

[Wensleydale]

LJ,


The E-3D can change a planned mission with the permission of FC provided that the original mission was a routine training sortie but did not provide the minimum agreed quantity of training for the crew. It may well be that Waddington requested the change to "QRA" from such a sortie. In any event, the permission of FC would have to have been obtained to carry out the tasking (unless, of course, a routine training sortie was planned in the UK that day, and it was held on the ground to meet the Q commitment). It became a quite frequent occurrence for the E-3D to move TACON to the UK if a continental TACON could not provide any aircraft to control.

[Lima Juliet]

Wensleydale

Fair enough mate, I've never worked at FC. However, I did draft the note that fessed up that the UK would only have 6ac instead of the original 7 :eek:

LJ :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Betty

I'm sure that the UK are probably offering other capabilities to this effort; just not an MPA :ok:

LJ

[Wensleydale]

Fair enough mate, I've never worked at FC. However, I did draft the note that fessed up that the UK would only have 6ac instead of the original 7.

Only 6 of the aircraft were assigned to NATO. The seventh aircraft was for ab-initio training and flight trials which were a national, rather than NATO, responsibility. ZH105 disappeared after my time at Waddington so I am not sure of the current declared requirement and whether we still declare 5 or 6 aircraft.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

LJ,

It's a good job that the search has been going on for a week and likely to be ongoing - it'll take a while for any worthwhile UK assets to get there!

Duncs

[Lima Juliet]

Duncs

I'm thinking about capabilities that were there before the search even started...

Sometimes you have to look for more subtle clues elsewhere :ok:

LJ

[Surplus]

Will this tragic incident affect the decision whether to purchase P8 in the 2015 review?

[Sun Who]

Will this tragic incident affect the decision whether to purchase P8 in the 2015 review?

No, it will not, neither one way, nor the other. Nor should it.

Sun.

[betty swallox]

LJ

That wasn't really my point.

Again, from the BBC...

"Late on Monday, US officials said the US navy ship USS Kidd had been taken off the search because the enlarged search area meant that "long-range patrol aircraft" were "more suited" to the mission."

[betty swallox]

...and it really is time to stop talking solely of an "MPA". We must get our head round the concept of an MMA. The days of a pure MPA are long gone.

[Jayand]

Utilising MPA for the search in this scenario is of course obvious,however this extremely rare event and the fact that any MPA would not be able to have saved anyone in Western European waters is hardly the evidence or persuading argument that will convince the government to go out and buy a fleet.

[betty swallox]

So, read the title of the thread!!! And the first post!!!

[Jayand]

Long range SAR at 30W for a downed airliner would be as I have already said purely be a search for wreckage. There would be no rescue and an identical scenario in the UK area of responsibility would be terrible but, no MPA/MMA would make the blindest bit of difference to the outcome.

[betty swallox]

Ok. But I think the thread has drifted, and rightly so, to "those nations around the world that are helping". Are you ok with that?!

[INT ZKJ]

So it would seem that many on here would say that the chances of surviving a downed airliner at long range is low. Unless assistance is close at hand I must agree, at least for the cold waters of the North Atlantic.

Now substitute airliner for SSN and SUBLOOK/SUBMISS/SUBSUNK action. What assets would you employ there?

[thunderbird7]

Now you're drifting into those areas of jobs most people (especially FJ oriented brass in the RAF) probably had no clue were ever done by maritime. Still, we can leave the navy to deal with that now with their long range Merlin force. God forbid, a highly unlikely event until it happens... After all, they hijacked the defence budget with their 'aircraft less carriers.' :rolleyes:

[dragartist]

INT ZKJ, See my post #71

[betty swallox]

Folks. The point still remains. A glance at the BBC News makes the blood boil as there's footage of the USN P-3C conducting SAR with many many other nations.

It's a CRIME we have nothing to send. This is undeniable.

Some on here saying that a few Typhoons and a tanker can do this ought to have a long hard think.

[MFC_Fly]

Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447)

This is what happens when an airplane crashes mid-atlantic; no one survives.

And this is what happens when an airplane 'ditches' on water...

http://www.targetlock.org.uk/nimrod/ditched-r1.jpg

and...

http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-dealzone/files/2009/01/usair.jpg

...everyone survives.

Given the right conditions and the right scenario :D

[Surplus]

Paragraph taken from the Department of Transport website current document titled:

SEARCH AND RESCUE FRAMEWORK FOR THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND

(My bold)

The MoD has responsibility for providing SAR facilities for military
operations, exercises and training within the UK and, by agreement,
exercises responsibility for the co-ordination of civil aeronautical SAR on
behalf of the DfT. Where the coverage provided by military SAR assets
meets the civil SAR coverage requirements, they will be made available for
civil maritime and land-based SAR operations. The high readiness SAR
assets are SAR helicopters, maritime surveillance fixed wing aircraft and
mountain rescue teams. The MoD also establishes and maintains an
Aeronautical Rescue Co-ordination Centre (ARCC) for the operation and
co-ordination of civil and military aeronautical SAR assets.

[Al R]

Betty,

At PMQs, Bob Stewart asked about a long range maritime capability and got not a lot of PM waffle. You'll be pleased to know that according to the PM, the MoD will be pleased to listen to him. Hmm.

[thunderbird7]

Bob being the right chap to ask as his brother was... ex-boss 201 ;)

[Party Animal]

Surplus - obviously that particular DfT website has not been updated for many years. Maybe they are waiting until we hand over the SAR helo contract and transfer the ARCC to the civvies down south. Then, they can update it all in a one-er. :(

[Surplus]

Or maybe the responsibilities haven't changed and we're just not complying with our obligations. Whatever the reason, we need to announce to the international community that we can longer cover our area.

[rh200]

Typhoons doing SAR? Absolutely f'ing hilarious

Wouldn't they be perfect, just flip upside down and cruise along looking outside the canopy:p

Sorry couldn't help myself:E

[betty swallox]

Looks like a USN P-8A has found some wreckage...

[Bannock]

CNN reporting that it is using its unique ability to detect magnetic anomolies.

[BBadanov]

Looks like a USN P-8A has found some wreckage...

Hmmm, not quite.
Satellite imagery had shown some potential items of interest, in the Indian Ocean, 2500km SW of Perth.

One RAAF AP-3C was diverted from its search area to investigate, and this is now the main AO. RAAF has 4 x AP-3Cs and a C-130J deployed to Pearce, one USN P-8A and a NZ P-3K. HMAS Success is on the way, but not due to arrive until Saturday.

The imagery shows something analysed as 24m long, and another smaller piece.

We will see.

[betty swallox]

Sorry chap. Just going on the initial report...

[Vertical751]

Hi guys,

I´m not familiar with the UK system but I can give some insight on the portuguese SAR scheme that produces some very long-range missions trough out the year. (Someone already posted some information on the 1st page).

Portugal has the largest Search Rescue Region (SRR) in Europe, representing more or less 6.000.000km2. They are coincident with the Flight Information Regions (FIRs) of Lisbon and Santa Maria and they stretch from the portuguese mainland to the Azores and Madeira islands.

http://www.emfa.pt/www/po/esq751/conteudos/homepage/sar/sar_1.jpg

The portuguese air force and portuguese navy are the main entities responsible for providing SAR coverage on this large area. There´s a RCC (Rescue Coordination Center) and a MRCC (Maritime Rescue Coordination Center) in Lisbon and Azores, and a secondary MRCC in Madeira.

The portuguese air force supplies the air component of the SAR scheme, and this includes:

- 1 EH-101 "Merlin" and a C-295 on 24hr alert at Montijo AB, near Lisbon.
- 1 EH-101 "Merlin" and a C-295 on 24hr alert at Porto Santo island, Madeira.
- 1 EH-101 "Merlin" (+1 reserve) and a C-295 on 24hr alert at Lajes AB, Terceira, Azores.
- 1 P-3C or C-130H (for ultra long range) in Beja AB/Montijo AB. (There´s always on them in 24hr alert)
- 2 Alouette 3 helicopters (one in Ovar AB, another in Beja AB) for short flights.

As you can imagine it´s a very difficult area to cover, and the P-3C is the only aircraft capable of covering almost all the area (the southwest corner of the SRR is still out of range, but they can be deployed to Cape Verde if needed).

The EH-101 "Merlin" is and excellent long-range SAR helicopter. 350NM+ missions over the sea departing from Azores are quite common, and generally 2 aircraft take part on those kind of missions: a fixed wing (a C-295 or a P-3C) and a EH-101 "Merlin".
On the areas outside the Merlin range, the only support available is from the fixed wing assets, and they usually deploy by parachute SAR kit´s and coordinate with civilian vessels in the area a SAR recovery.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3711/11565250363_e0db3b5422_b.jpg



If an airliner went down between a 350/380NM nautical miles from any of those bases, or other islands if in the mid-atlantic, an EH-101 "Merlin" could be in the operational area in 3H30 hours, with 30 minutes on station. A C-295 would be there sooner, providing SAR kits, coordination between any other vessels in the area and area evaluation.
We can assume that on a best case scenario the Merlin could retrieve 6 persons on a 30 minute window, at that distance. But, of course, everything depends on the operational situation and the information available to the SAR crews.

From my personal experience - and retrieving the UK part of the topic - having a long range fixed wing aircraft for SAR support is indeed very important on these kind of scenario.

A very cool video about the portuguese Merlin drivers, 751 Squadron, can be found here:
Rays of Hope on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/paulwex/raysofhope)


Cheers,

[dragartist]

Vertical,
Yes there was article article in last month Defence Helicopter mag describing the operations.


Mc Fly,
After Art had put 66 down and they all got out did it not sink? I don't think they had to wait long in the dingy.

[Surplus]

After Art had put 66 down and they all got out did it not sink? I don't think they had to wait long in the dingy.

It did eventually sink, long after the crew were picked up by the Seaking that was already airborne on a SAR exercise. I believe it floated for several hours before sinking.

When it ditched, I was flying on a SAR top cover for another Helo who was picking up an injured trawler-man.

[betty swallox]

BBC News - Missing plane: On board debris search plane (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26661420?SThisFB)

[Pontius Navigator]

The RNlN Atlantic also floated for some time and IIRC bits resurfaced a day r so later too.

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1981/1981%20-%201153.PDF

Waves were apparently 30 feet.

[thunderbird7]

Vertical, a good insight into how other nations are taking their international SAR commitment seriously. Shame there's a hole in our AOR, where most NAT Tracks and many shipping lanes lie.

[500N]

This might be of interest to some. From one of the RAAF aircraft on the search.

Missing plane: on board the search flight (http://media.theage.com.au/news/national-news/missing-plane-on-board-the-search-flight-5278805.html)

[Surplus]

Now let's see some video of the P8 down @ 300', just to prove it's got the 'legs' at low level, it's an ideal chance to scotch the nay sayers.

[fincastle84]

In October 1984 we operated our 42 Sqn/ Crew 6 Nimrod out of Pearce for 2 weeks on Exercise Sandgroper after our successful trip to Edinburgh field for a certain competition. I can't understand why Cameron hasn't deployed a couple out there plus tanker support in order to extend the ToT.

Oh dear, I've been dreaming again!!!! Cameron, you're a total f*ck wit.:ugh:

[Cows getting bigger]

Indeed. The Nimrod would have been quite useful.

Looking ahead, one hopes that this event is making UK PLC re-think its international obligations. It would all be rather embarrassing in the future if we had to ask the Malasians for knowledge/assistance somewhere West of 10W.:sad:

[fincastle84]

It would all be rather embarrassing in the future if we had to ask the Malasians for knowledge/assistance somewhere West of 10W.:sad:It would be even more embarrassing if we had to ask the Irish Defence forces for the use of their Dornier!!!:O

[Cows getting bigger]

Hey fincastle, see this? It's an MPA and it is flying. :)

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/airtech-cn-235-mpa/images/cn235mp_4.jpg

[TBM-Legend]

The RAAF could extend the P-8A with inflight refuelling from a KC-30 if the boom worked...

[Party Animal]

Fincastle,

But Cameroon has taken decisive leadership action! After a week of waiting on the RN to find something available, he has now phoned his Malaysian oppo and offered to help. One of HM's glorified survey tugs is on it's way there now - at 7kts because the RN can't afford the fuel to go any faster! :D

[Surplus]

The RAAF could extend the P-8A with inflight refuelling from a KC-30 if the boom worked...

Just what Boeing would want, a fully fuelled P8 down at low level for long periods.

Looking ahead, one hopes that this event is making UK PLC re-think its international obligations. It would all be rather embarrassing in the future if we had to ask the Malasians for knowledge/assistance somewhere West of 10W.

CGB,

I posed this question earlier, the sentiments seemed to be:

No, it will not, neither one way, nor the other. Nor should it.

Utilising MPA for the search in this scenario is of course obvious,however this extremely rare event and the fact that any MPA would not be able to have saved anyone in Western European waters is hardly the evidence or persuading argument that will convince the government to go out and buy a fleet.

Another opinion was:

Long range SAR at 30W for a downed airliner would be as I have already said purely be a search for wreckage. There would be no rescue and an identical scenario in the UK area of responsibility would be terrible but, no MPA/MMA would make the blindest bit of difference to the outcome.

Does anybody on the forum think that IF this wreckage was from the missing Malaysian aircraft, that there is anybody still alive?

So why is so much effort being put in if no MPA/MMA would make the blindest bit of difference to the outcome.

The Malaysian government is getting crucified over the way it handled this incident, what could we say if it happened here?

Sorry, we don't know what happened, we haven't the assets to find out, we're just presuming that they're all dead., it would cost too much to do anything else.

[glad rag]

Global Hawk, ongoing trials at present. ;)

[fincastle84]

It's an MPA and it is flying.

I know, I've flown in it! Paid for by the EU at a cost of £17,000,000 per airframe!

[betty swallox]

P-8 Poseidon: U.S. Navy's Advanced Aircraft Hunts for Missing Jet - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/p-8-poseidon-u-s-navys-advanced-aircraft-hunts-missing-n57411)

[TBM-Legend]

Just what Boeing would want, a fully fuelled P8 down at low level for long periods.


Why do you say this? I guess you somehow figure that various scenarios have not been studied.....

Remember, Rule 1 is never assume...

[melmothtw]

Quote:




Just what Boeing
would want, a fully fuelled P8 down at low level for long
periods.
Why do you say this? I guess you somehow figure that various scenarios have
not been studied.....

Remember, Rule 1 is never assume...


Out of curiousity, why is the P-8s low-level performance questioned when the jet-powered Nimrod appears to have fulfilled the mission with no (reported) problems.

[thunderbird7]

Flying an extended search looking for wreckage/bodies/liferaft in the water is a long and tiring business. Those who have never done it don't realise quite how hard it is to spot something in the water and at how short range. One of the advantages of an MPA is the number of eyes and windows available, not just the sensors on board.

[Surplus]

An extract from the link that Betty posted. Seventh Fleet spokesman Cmdr. William J. Marks told the Wall Street Journal on Thursday that the plane has a maximum speed of 490 knots and can climb as high as 41,000 feet. But in this scenario the aircraft would be flying far lower and slower - at a height of 5,000-10,000 feet and at 350 knots - giving it a search time of up to nine hours, Marks told the newspaper. (My bold.)

So did it only go down to 5-10,000' or was he advised incorrectly? The journalist on the P8, quoted 3 hours transit, 3 hours onsta and 3 hours back to Perth, not quite a 9 hour search. I just wondered whether it was down in the weeds, or up high. It can't have done 9 hours onsta and down at MOA, doing a visual search.

The AP3Cs yesterday were, at times, down to 300' to avoid weather (low cloud and sea fog).

TBM

No aircraft would want to be low level, fully fuelled for long periods of time, it would play havoc with the fatigue life. I didn't mean that the P8 was any different, just making the point that air to air refuelling doesn't solve all the problems.

[betty swallox]

I suspect it would have been down at the same sort of heights as the P-3C.

And the P-8A apparently handles like a dream at 200'.

[Sun Who]

Cows getting Bigger said:
Looking ahead, one hopes that this event is making UK PLC re-think its international obligations. It would all be rather embarrassing in the future if we had to ask the Malasians for knowledge/assistance somewhere West of 10W.
Previously, when Surplus said:
Will this tragic incident affect the decision whether to purchase P8 in the 2015 review?Effectively implying this responsibility should be discharged by MoD.
a. I'm not convinced the UK has any legal obligation for SAR beyond the UK SRR (not the same as a moral obligation of course).
b. Why should it be the responsibility of Defence to conduct civilian SAR? I accept we should use capability were it exists, that's only right and moral, but spending money on Defence SAR capability, based on a civilian SAR use case, doesn't make sense. That's not how capability planning is conducted, nor should it be.

Sun.

[Cows getting bigger]

Sun, it is my understanding that the UK SRR stretches to 30W. Personally, I don't have a view whether this should be a military task or not. After all, littoral SAR is alread provided by charity (RNLI), the coastguard (increasingly so) and the military. My concern is that the UK doesn't actually have any significant capability (regardless of the uniforms worn) beyond 10W. My home nation (Eire) currently has more to offer and our particular bit of the Atlantic is so much smaller. :(

[Sun Who]

CGB,

Fair points.

sun.

[Lima Juliet]

The MoD provides declared SAR facilities to cover military operations, exercises and training within the UK SRR. Although these resources are established primarily for military purposes, it is MoD policy to render assistance whenever possible to other persons, aircraft or vessels in distress. Where the coverage provided by military SAR assets meets the civil SAR requirement, they will be made available for civil aeronautical, maritime and land-based SAR operations.

Not our [read military] problem, guv!

LJ

[Captain Radar....]

In a search like this you need windows. Not Microsoft windows, perspex windows, and eyes looking out of them. A 737 with trained observers would be more use than a P8 in this scenario. Bits of airliner floating about in sea state 6 will not be detected by radar. IR sensors are too limited in field of view. MK1 eyeball is the primary sensor. Been there, done that. But you need a good datum, good assessment of surface drift and luck, lots of luck.

[Sun Who]

Captain radar said
Bits of airliner floating about in sea state 6 will not be detected by radar. IR sensors are too limited in field of view.

Neither of these things are (necessarily) true with (absolutely) state of the art sensors anymore.

Sun.

[betty swallox]

Captain Radar

Utter pish. You insult the trained crews doing this job. Have a word.

[AnglianAV8R]

Quote:
The MoD provides declared SAR facilities to cover military operations, exercises and training within the UK SRR. Although these resources are established primarily for military purposes, it is MoD policy to render assistance whenever possible to other persons, aircraft or vessels in distress. Where the coverage provided by military SAR assets meets the civil SAR requirement, they will be made available for civil aeronautical, maritime and land-based SAR operations.


Hmmmm, so when SAR is civilianised, will rescue of downed military aircrew be on a "whenever possible" basis ? Just askin :bored:

[500N]

Looks like a direct comparison between the P3, P8, C-130, 2 Japanese and whatever the 3 Chinese aircraft are as the Aust, US, NZ, Japanese and Chinese will all be operating out of RAAF Pearce South of Perth.

Will be interesting as it is an unprecedented level of joint operability.


If this is not suitable info for this thread I can delete it.

[Fugazi1000]

@500N

Minor point, but RAAF Pearce is north of Perth.

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/RAAF+Base+Pearce/@-31.6741246,116.0284199,2610m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xf04f0b618f0f060

[betty swallox]

For Captain radar...

"John Young of Amsa said planes were "flying relatively low" with "very highly skilled and trained observers looking out of the aircraft windows... to see objects"."


I'm sure the "very highly trained observers" would be really happy by your statement.

[airsound]

The nice editor of the London Independent was kind enough to publish a letter on Friday on the subject of the UK's lack of long range stuff.

If you're interested (and your butler failed to iron your print copy), you can find it at: (scroll down to fifth letter)
Letters: Budget bribe won?t help our grandchildren - Letters - Voices - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/letters/letters-budget-bribe-wont-help-our-grandchildren-9206114.html)

airsound

[500N]

Fugaz,

Yes, my mistake, thanks :ok:

[FODPlod]

The nice editor of the London Independent was kind enough to publish a letter on Friday on the subject of the UK's lack of long range stuff...
Well said (and written).

[Jayand]

What are we waiting for? Some P8s are flying lots on the telly.
We have to buy a fleet right now! Lol.

[Lima Juliet]

Now, now, Jayand, sarcasm is the lowest form of...:ok:

I note that the Chinese have sent IL-76 for their search effort. What does this bring that a UK C-17 or C-130J couldn't bring? (Serious question!)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-03/22/133205995_13954614631091n.jpg

LJ

[Daysleeper]

What does this bring that a UK C-17 or C-130J couldn't bring

Big glass bit under the nose.

Let me add my own question, why does the UK bit go to 30 W while the Irish bit only goes to 15W.

[betty swallox]

Oh Jayand....

[Cows getting bigger]

LJ - noise and smoke

Daysleeper - you obviously haven't drank with an Irishman. :)

[Party Animal]

LJ,


Purely a guess but how about range and endurance?

[Captain Radar....]

Captain Radar

Utter pish. You insult the trained crews doing this job. Have a word.

For Captain radar...

"John Young of Amsa said planes were "flying relatively low" with "very highly skilled and trained observers looking out of the aircraft windows... to see objects"."


I'm sure the "very highly trained observers" would be really happy by your statement.

Gentlemen, you misunderstand me. Probably my fault. John Young said what I said, and if you read it again I said TRAINED observers. The same trained observers that operate the P8 and all other MPA. Those of you that have spent as many hours as I have as a trained observer looking for lost vessels/people/aircraft in the ocean will understand that we used every tool in the box to try and locate whatever we were looking for. If it was something low in the water, or of low radar cross section we used windows. (Mind you, whatever we were looking for we looked out of the windows!) Perspex windows with trained professional observers. I just don't think the P8 has many windows and the trained professional operators could do with more of them. If they are looking for bits of carbon fibre, floating fuselage section, seat cushions, dinghies etc they need more windows. That's all. Utter Pish? Insulting the crews? No, not at all. Maybe the kit is that much better now. I hope so, but I bet it's not optimised to work at visual search heights, why would it be? The P8 itself isn't optimised to operate there, and that was my point. Sorry if I didn't make it very well.

[Guernsey Girl II]

Daysleeper,

As i recall, not a lot of space down in the Nav compartment of an IL 76; but I guess the Chinesse version won't have all the empty Vodka bottles rolling around on the floor!

[RandomBlah]

Captain Radar,

There are numerous factual errors in your last post and your "I bets" are wrong.

The P8 operates perfectly well at visual search heights.
The observer windows in the P-8 are substantially larger than the beam windows in the MR2 and offer an excellent view, especially rearward where the wing sweep involves less of the field of view being obscured.

Although the MR2 had more windows, the reality in terms of SAR visual search was that most were no more than a token gesture. The Galley offered an excellent view of the top surface of the port wing, a similar scenario with recorder and ESM. The reality of the "eyes-in/out" calls was it was all about the beams and AEO- positions on the fuselage of the P-8 that have very large observer windows. I just wish Boeing would install them on all their passenger aircraft.

In addition please explain how "the kit" is not optimised to operate at visual search heights; this is precisely what the USN are doing with the aircraft operationally right now, albeit for a different task.

[betty swallox]

Captain radar,

Apology accepted, however, I simply can't withdraw the "utter pish" sentiment. As Randomblah eloquently says above, the aircraft is perfectly set up for a visual search at lower levels.

Is time to dispel the myths re P-8 and it's ability to carry out the mission or not at low level.

[ancientaviator62]

VX275,
I have come to this thread rather late so apologies to all for a backtrack.
I am confused by the statement that the C130K tanker did not have clearance for the carriage of smoke floats and marine markers. Or have I misunderstood ?
We certainly carried them 'down south'. Given that these items were only prepped once the para doors were open the hazard was minimised.
Besides a caring 'system' had thoughtfully provided us with an extra (SMALL) BCF fire extinguisher on the aft face of each internal tank.
As for the ASRA and the wooden crates, we had more than one disintegrate in situ and the bits follow the linked containers out of the port para door !

[Phoney Tony]

BS,

You can drive a Rolls Royce across a ploughed field.


But not for long!!

[betty swallox]

Ah. Speaks the experienced P-8 operator

[Phoney Tony]

No experience in Rolls Royces either!

[Roland Pulfrew]

PT

You can drive a Rolls Royce across a ploughed field.



Did you ever watch the Top Gear India Special?

[Martin the Martian]

And on their first mission the Chinese spot several large items of debris which neither the RAAF, RNZAF or USN have seen in several days of intense searching.

I must be getting cynical in my old age.

[500N]

Well they were searching in a different area ;)
(or allocated a new area to search !).

[betty swallox]

Martin the Martian.

Completely unfair. You've obviously never been on a SAR mission as you clearly have no idea of the process involved in searching a large area of ocean.

Well done you.

[Martin the Martian]

You're right. No I haven't, and no I don't understand all the complexities. If it is a new area that has not yet been searched, fair enough.

I heard an article on the Today programme this morning which discussed the way that China has effectively been sidelined in a region in which it is usually the biggest fish in the pond by the capabilities of Australia, New Zealand, the USA et al and those countries willingness to work together and their previous experience in doing so. The article stated that the USA is again being looked upon as a big player in the region and that a competitive edge is being developed in Beijing in the search for answers. That the Chinese crew spotted wreckage on their first sortie is quite a coincidence.

That's all. I'm not saying that the report was false or that the 'objects' were chucked out the back of the Il-76 (though I do wonder why PLANAF MPAs were not deployed instead. If anyone can enlighten me I'd be very happy to know why).

So my apologies for coming over all suspicious and cynical. Put it down to Monday morning.

[500N]

Martin

Re "I heard an article on the Today programme this morning which discussed the way that China has effectively been sidelined in a region in which it is usually the biggest fish in the pond by the capabilities of Australia, New Zealand, the USA et al and those countries willingness to work together and their previous experience in doing so. The article stated that the USA is again being looked upon as a big player in the region and that a competitive edge is being developed in Beijing in the search for answers. That the Chinese crew spotted wreckage on their first sortie is quite a coincidence.


Well the program didn't do much research then.

1. The Australian military and Chinese mil have worked together before,
on exercises to do with disaster relief and humanitarian assistance for this exact purpose. An Aussie warship spent 5 days in a Chinese port on an official visit - 2012/13. It also conducted movement exercises with Chinese warships which is not something that normally occurs. The Aust Govt has invited 3 Chinese warships to visit Australia, I think this year.

2. Read the following article. Gives some insight into the background of why maybe China wants to be seen to be doing more because it cocked up by not doing anything when the Typhoon hit the Philippines.

3. The current Aust govt was quick to invite the Chinese ("And Prime Minister Tony Abbott was shrewd to have invited China to send its planes and ships to join the effort with the US, New Zealand, Britain, France and Japan") as they knew they wanted "in" and to be "seen" and to not to do so would have been awkward, not that Aus would have said no. After all, the chinese ship was already in port in Perth, right by the search zone !!!

4. If the US is such a big player, every other country has more assets here than the US !!!

5. Both Chinese aircraft had an Aussie pilot on board - at the request of the RAAF !!! so I doubt any funny business went on !

Read more here.

Self-interest the only principle guiding China (http://www.smh.com.au/comment/selfinterest-the-only-principle-guiding-china-20140324-35e15.html)

[Martin the Martian]

500N

Thank you for the info, and a very interesting article.

[500N]

Martin

I get pissed off, not at you but the media for not doing the research,
which frankly is so easy for a journo to do today.


No denying " Australia, New Zealand, the USA" work closely, we do have a defence pact plus both NZ and Aust have joint US listening bases ;)

[thunderbird7]

As ever, watching an event unfold on a subject you have vague knowledge of, it is stunning the crass ignorance of many journalists and their reporting. It makes me wonder how accurate the reporting is on subjects I know nothing about...?

[The Old Fat One]

As ever, watching an event unfold on a subject you have vague knowledge of, it is stunning the crass ignorance of many journalists and their reporting. It makes me wonder how accurate the reporting is on subjects I know nothing about...?

An astute observation T7...and to follow up, you may well wonder at people that denigrate the media on matters which they (the readers) know stuff about, but willingly swallow hook line and sinker all the media bilge that they (the reader) are less well informed?

Ironic is it not?

[Wensleydale]

"As ever, watching an event unfold on a subject you have vague knowledge of, it is stunning the crass ignorance of many journalists and their reporting. It makes me wonder how accurate the reporting is on subjects I know nothing about...?"




How true. I gave up my daily paper after the dross being reported about a project that I was working in. We all tend to base our opinions and beliefs upon facts reported by external agencies so it is sad when they get their facts completely wrong.

[500N]

Now I know why the Gov't and AMSA provide multiple daily updates and pictures via the nicely packaged media kits, etc. It means the Media can't cock it up !!!

Anyway, back to China being sidelined, I happened to be on the Australian Defence web site to see what photos they had and they have 3 photos of the Chinese aircraft or people.

This caption follows them all.

(I have cut out some text about our acting PM, Mr Truss)

Description/Caption

"A Senior Colonel from the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) speaks to the media at RAAF Base Pearce ............................ "Mr Truss met with RAAF air crew, maintenance, security and operational staff. The personnel from RAAF Base Pearce and four AP-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft are part of a strong team together with a Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) P-3K2 Orion, a United States Navy (USN) P-8 Poseidon aircraft and two People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Ilyushin IL-76 which recently arrived to support the search.

The Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) led search area is located 1500 nautical miles to the west-southwest of Perth and takes in an area of over 175,000 square nautical miles of ocean."

Really looks like they have been sidelined !!!

[Samuel]

RNZAF continues search for MH370 - TV News Video | TVNZ (http://tvnz.co.nz/breakfast-news/rnzaf-continues-search-mh370-video-5872383)

The newly appointed CAF RNZAF.....smooth as they come!

There is at least one pilot on the RNZAF P3K2 who is RAF. Seedcorn?

[Surplus]

Samuel,

Quite a few people have transferred permanently to the NZ Air Force, Pilots, Navs, AEOps etc, it's not just Seedcorn Brits over there.

[500N]

That video makes an interesting contrast between the RNZAF and the "running answers" by whoever it was.

[Samuel]

Surplus:True, and I'm aware of that, but the pilot in question IS RAF.

[bakseetblatherer]

I think person in question is a Nav, Flt Lt Eric King RAF who flying RNZAF Orions.

BBC News - A day with the MH370 search mission (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26707244)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11225597

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201413/240314SPLSEARCH02_620x413.jpg

[BBadanov]

#mh370 SAR Difficulty: The Depth Of Indian Ocean Was Ten Times More Than KLCC (http://mh370news.net/mh370-sar-difficulty-depth-indian-ocean-ten-times-klcc/)

I hope this video posts ok, shows the difficult conditions.

[betty swallox]

Flt Lt Eric King is the WSO (Weapons Systems Officer). The title Nav doesn't exist anymore. Eric is part of Project Seedcorn and hasn't transferred to the RNZAF. He's RAF and working with the Kiwis.

[QTRZulu]

I think the guy holding the blank piece of paper looks suspiciously like Trev Parker to me?

[betty swallox]

It sure is!!!

[fincastle84]

I bet that the bar is doing a roaring trade. So many happy memories apart from having all of my clothes removed by my loyal crew, ably led by Jakko, in a bar below His Majesty's theatre in Perth. The BHC's wife was most impressed, another nail in the coffin of my career.

Back on topic, Jeremy Vine has just been waffling on BBC R2 about the information supplied by Inmarsat. He obviously obtained his info from the kids channel rather than read the excellent piece in today's Telegraph. And I always thought that Doppler could only be used for tracking Russian nukes!

[Yellow Sun]

The BHC's wife was most impressed, another nail in the coffin of my career.

You had a career.......?;)

YS

[fincastle84]

You had a career.......?

I probably did when I started training on 2 Oct 1966!

[Surplus]

And I always thought that Doppler could only be used for tracking Russian nukes!
LE4 or LE8?

[Surplus]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73816000/jpg/_73816316_021668856-1.jpg

More Seedcorn helping with the search.

[nimbev]

Can anyone please tell me how many seedcorners there are and with which nations they are serving?

[SwitchMonkey]

An answer can be found here:

House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 24 Nov 2011 (pt 0003) (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm111124/text/111124w0003.htm)

The cut & paste version:

The number and location of personnel and equipment to be used is as follows:

Location
Aircraft Number of personnel
Canada

Royal Canadian Air Force Greenwood

CP-140 Aurora

7


New Zealand

Royal New Zealand Air Force Base Whenuapai

P-3K Orion/P-3K2 Orion

5


Royal New Zealand Air Force Base Ohakea

Beech King Air B200

1


Australia

Royal Australian Air Force Base Edinburgh

AP-3C Orion

4


United States

Naval Air Station Norfolk

Non-flying appointment related to maritime operational staff duties.

1


Naval Air Station Patuxent River

P3C Orion

2

Additionally, discussions are ongoing with the US Navy on an exchange initiative for fully qualified RAF aircrew to support the US P-8A Poseidon programme.

That was from 2011 so things may have changed a little.

[betty swallox]

That's an old slide.

There are 20 personnel supporting the P-8A program. 11 at NAS Jacksonville, FL and 9 at NAS Patuxent River, MD.

[Party Animal]

That's the overseas 'Seedcorners'. There are a bunch of ex Nimrod MR aircrew still connected with the Air C2 of Allied MPA, who remained in the UK. They also come under the seedcorn umbrella.

The idea, should we get back in the game post SDSR 15, is to have a knowledge base of practitoners, taskers and tacticians who can lead on the future construct of a UK MPA capability - accepting that the platform will be called an MMA (whatever it is) and there may well be a high level of jointery with the RN.

If there is nothing coming our way in the next SDSR, then I suspect that Seedcorn will rapidly fade away.

[500N]

Had to laugh at one of the Faifax videos on a P3 Orion.

Warrant Lieut Mick Barker !


If you want to watch it, it is here, about 50 seconds in.
MH370 search suspended (http://media.theage.com.au/featured/mh370-search-crews-left-frustrated-5300074.html)

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

And the NZ King Air QFI has rtb'd.

Or should that be rt'db?

Dunc :ok:

[nimbev]

switch/betty/PA - thanks for the info.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Oh, and don't forget Moray Flt of No 602 Sqn RAuxAF!

Duncs

[betty swallox]

U.S. 7th Fleet Adds Second P-8 Poseidon to MH370 Search | Commander, U.S. Pacific Fleet (http://www.cpf.navy.mil/news.aspx/030364)

[Ballbat]

For Captain radar...

"John Young of Amsa said planes were "flying relatively low" with "very highly skilled and trained observers looking out of the aircraft windows... to see objects"."


I'm sure the "very highly trained observers" would be really happy by your statement.

Gentlemen, you misunderstand me. Probably my fault. John Young said what I said, and if you read it again I said TRAINED observers. The same trained observers that operate the P8 and all other MPA. Those of you that have spent as many hours as I have as a trained observer looking for lost vessels/people/aircraft in the ocean will understand that we used every tool in the box to try and locate whatever we were looking for. If it was something low in the water, or of low radar cross section we used windows. (Mind you, whatever we were looking for we looked out of the windows!) Perspex windows with trained professional observers. I just don't think the P8 has many windows and the trained professional operators could do with more of them. If they are looking for bits of carbon fibre, floating fuselage section, seat cushions, dinghies etc they need more windows. That's all. Utter Pish? Insulting the crews? No, not at all. Maybe the kit is that much better now. I hope so, but I bet it's not optimised to work at visual search heights, why would it be? The P8 itself isn't optimised to operate there, and that was my point. Sorry if I didn't make it very well.
I think you overly underestimating the P-8 and its capabilities. The aircraft doesn't need more windows. The two windows with competent observers are fine. The new AN/APY-10 radar and camera on the turret are pretty capable sensors. I'm willing to bet a skilled EWO operator will find debris before the eye of an observer will.

And the P-8 handles great down low.

[Surplus]

I'm willing to bet a skilled EWO operator will find debris before the eye of an observer will.

EWO? I'm assuming you mean an EO operator?

You'd think that EO would be able to pick up debris first, but it rarely happens like that. Using EO is like looking down a drinking straw, it's very good for seeing large objects that are far away, once you are queued on by either Radar or AIS. Once acquired, the object can be held in view to the on top. Even using the wider fields of view it is very difficult to acquire smaller objects, observers usually see the smaller objects first, either on the flight deck or in the observer stations. EO will be used for the search, as it is an extra set of eyes, but the MK1 eyeball is hard to beat.

[betty swallox]

Get with the times. The USN calls "dry guys" EWOs...

[Sun Who]

Surplus said:
Using EO is like looking down a drinking straw, it's very good for seeing large objects that are far away, once you are queued on by either Radar or AIS.State of the art EO/IR has moved on. Google 'step-stare'. I don't know if the P8 has step-stare (I would hope it does however) but, having used it myself I can say that it's a leap beyond 'traditional' EO/IR in terms of being able to cover large areas (with confidence).

The issue isn't that targets don't show up on a (traditional) EO/IR sensor, it's that then human eye is poor at picking it out of the clutter and confusion. Step-stare is a significant improvement in that regard.

Sun.

Edited to add:

e.g. (and this is not a high-end example)

A lightweight EO payload, WESCAM 11SST (Step-Stare Turret) offers a unique capability to rapidly cover a large area with is its “step-stare” function. The payload is equipped with gimbaled, tri-sensor (http://defense-update.com/tag/sensor) stabilized bench designed for high speed step-stare functioning (>120deg./sec slew rate). The sensor (http://defense-update.com/tag/sensor) captures seven video frames per second, images are compressed and streamed to the control station, where they are tiled together to create a hi-resolution digital image of a large area. 11SST covers up to 300sq kilometers per hour, from an altitude or distance of 4,000meters. http://defense-update.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/sst5.jpg (http://defense-update.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/sst5.jpg)
The payload can accommodate an optional geo-positioning and image processing package for flexible automatic positioning and automatic target tracking. The payload is equipped with 3rd generation 3-5nm InSb FLIR (http://defense-update.com/tag/flir), a color daylight CCD sensor (http://defense-update.com/tag/sensor) with x14 zoom lens (2.2-28.5mm) and an eyesafe laser rangefinder.

[Ballbat]

EWO? I'm assuming you mean an EO operator?

Electronic Warfare Operator (SS3). I meant a competent EWO (utilizing all his sensors) will probably find debris before the naked eye. I just went CAC card redundant there.

Most search is done between 1,500 ft and 5,000 ft. It's not like the old days where you might be able to point something out at 200 ft.

[GreenKnight121]

Except that in the current search the P-8 has been flying as low as 200' (according to persons who were aboard), in part because atmospheric conditions require it, as >500 feet meant neither the eye nor the EO sensor could see anything.

[HAS59]

before we all go shouting "technology has the answer" just remember not a single sensor ever identified anything, -
and before you all go spluttering a reply let me finish the sentence - a competent operator is the one who identified what the sensor may have detected. Regardless of sensor...

I await the onset of 'automatic detection' examples - all capable of being proved wrong.

[Haraka]

Agreed HAS 59. Automation is always being pushed as a means for "saving" human search effort (i.e. direct and indirect costs).
In the last century I came across certain European scientists taking development money for this in support of searches of large areas of Commercial Satellite Imagery. Egged on by petty bureaucrats and bean counters, their mandate was for the entire search system "soon" to be automated and us Imagery Interpreters and Analysts replaced. Apparently this would be with easily recruitable and comparatively untrained data loaders and typing clerks at, of course a great cost saving. This process was always phrased as being "more efficient" of course.
The scientists ( none of whom had an imagery intelligence background, of course - perish the thought) proudly brought their prize software down to our" Centre in the Sun" to educate my Ops. Division as to the way ahead. In front of us all they were soon keen to demonstrate its capability to follow along a road on a Satellite Image. This it did for a few minutes. Unfortunately in the course of the tracking demo, the road took a sharp 90 deg bend.
The "intelligent" system didn't, however, and continued to track ahead, first along a hedgerow, then it hit a stream etc. etc.....
I got that spec knocked back to being for a support tool only after that one.
I'd love to see such kit deal with interpreting a stream of hundreds of multiple images , in negative and often inverted , plus IR , plus SLAR and all against minutes on the clock as was done by First Phase operators back in the 70's :)( Who of course would also be simultaneously dictating a Recce report and evaluating the imaging runs with one or more tired and often impatient aircrew).
Incidentally, In those days NATO 1st Phase Reconnaissance report production output timing standards from "engines off" were 50% slower than those national standards of the U.K.

In mitigation, such soft-wares DO have a potential in change detection and in ploughing through redundant data to alert a human to anomalies for investigation . However noise and other confusing factors cannot always be successfully countered. We can't phase out the driver of the intelligently driven eyeball ( the Mk2 ) just yet, over land or sea, who can adapt and apply situational awareness to the task(s) at hand.

[betty swallox]

P-8 Poseidon most likely tool to help unlock MH370 mystery - The Malaysian Insider (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/p-8-poseidon-most-likely-tool-to-help-unlock-mh370-mystery)

[500N]

Anyone know why the P-8 and the Chinese aircraft are operating out of Perth International and not RAAF Pearce ?

[Bannock]

Four reasons.

1. Because the runway is over 1000m longer
2. There are trolley Dollies.
3. Flight rationing at Pearce is shocking.
4. There are trolley dollies.

[Roland Pulfrew]

5. It's a much shorter drive to the HOTAC..........where there are trolley dollies.

[Surplus]

Bannock,

Flight rationing at Pearce is shocking.

The Bacon and Egg rolls always go down well on our crew, as does the chicken with mayo for the sandwiches. George Foreman always comes along on Detachments.

500N,

Anyone know why the P-8 and the Chinese aircraft are operating out of Perth International and not RAAF Pearce ?

The support/accommodation facilities at Pearce must be close to being at max stretch with the number of extra people involved in the search.

[500N]

Yes, good point, forgot about that part.

I think Abbott said 550 people involved at RAAF Pearce !!!


I supposed RAAF Pearce is normally used to the "Chicken stranglers"
as opposed to people who want decent beds :O

[processor overloads]

As seen on Sky News - RAF SEEDCORN personnel help in the search for MH 370 Malaysia Plane Probe Focuses On Crew And Pilots (http://news.sky.com/story/1235690/malaysia-plane-probe-focuses-on-crew-and-pilots)


About half way through the video 2 guys from the RAF are seen getting on board a P3C and interviewed. Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere.

[betty swallox]

Don't apologise!! All good limelight for the boys.

[khaki83]

Anyone know why the P-8 and the Chinese aircraft are operating out of Perth International and not RAAF Pearce ?

Also the P8's tyre pressures are too high to operate off Pearce's runways.

[GreenKnight121]

So when the RAAF gets its P-8s they will have to either build a new runway or base them at PI when they are deployed to the southwest area?

[Surplus]

Tyre pressures or AUW?

If a B52 was ok to get into YPEA, I think the P8'll be fine.

[khaki83]

Runway upgrades have been planned for YPEA and initial work has started already, they were put on hold when the SAR started. There are plans in place to upgrade RAAF Edinburgh facilities however the runways are capable of landing a P8 at the moment.

In regards to YPEA it's not AUW that is the issue, it's tyre pressures. The P8 run the same pressures as a 737-800 which is above the limits for YPEA for 18R/36L but can land on 18L/36R as seen below-
https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/ersa/FAC_YPEA_6-Mar-2014.pdf

To be honest it seems like the tyre pressure story a bit if a poor excuse. I honestly think it's because a) There isn't much room on the ramp for the P8 and b) the crew didn't want to stay in the crap accommodation that is RAAF Pearce.

[Surplus]

Prefer to not stay at Pearce? That means forgoing the pleasure of the Red Roof!

[Lima Juliet]

Well the airborne Search hasn't gone so well in this tragedy has it? Hundreds of tons of kerosene burned and not a single piece of tangible evidence. However, a Chinese ship with a cheap hydrophone and an Australian ship with a very expensive hydrophone have found the most likely resting place.

No wonder the RN haven't crowed from their nests over the loss of LR MPA. I expect that if any money is to be had in SDSR15 that they would sooner see it spent on ships. How many nice little boats could they have bought with the money wasted on the N-word Mk4!!?

Here's hoping that HMS ECHO can add to the mix and find some large bits for the ROV to go find. Meanwhile the LR MPA can do something useful and drop the mail!

LJ

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1379/03/1379036272640.jpg

[Surplus]

I guess somebodies worried that his 'not so hard earned cash' is going to be wisely spent on some nice shiny new P8s.

[betty swallox]

Ah LJ. More wonderful insight into your slightly skewed universe. Wonderful.

[The B Word]

Betty

Reading other posts on this, it seems that MPAs are incapable of detecting 37.5khz pingers - it's not exactly rocket science to give them this capability, is it? So all of this crowing over a lack of airborne LRSAR and there is no capability to detect one of the aircraft's primary location aids following an accident suggests that there are others with "skewed universes".

I agree with Leon, the MPAs have not contributed much in this search at all. It has been 'overhead' satellites and ships with hydraphones that have proved their worth. It's hard to argue otherwise in this particular tragedy.

The B Word

[Sun Who]

MPA are not designed nor intended to find sunken civilian aircraft.

Would those who decry the efficacy of MPA in this search rather they hadn't been tasked?:confused:

Sun.

[Party Animal]

LJ,

Have you ever met anyone in the RN above the rank of stoker? Those with knowledge and wisdom (and power) within the RN are fully aware of the gaping hole in our maritime defences left by the removal of a UK MPA. The mitigation factor is to ask allies to do the job for us.

Far stronger support to regain the capability is coming from the RN rather than the RAF. Had the MRA4 been a FAA asset, it would not have been scrapped.

[The B Word]

Sun

It would appear that without the capability to detect the ADR's pinger then maybe they were just boring holes in the sky? After working out they were no survivors and no dsicernable wreckage to be seen after the couple of days of search then what was the point if they couldn't detect the pinger?

Either get a sonobuoy capability for MPAs to detect this type of thing or stop going on about their greatness for this type of task. I believe that in Air France 447 it was the satellite tracking that pinpointed the search area and then it took a Brazilian Navy corvette to find anything of use to confirm its loss?

The B Word