Egg banjos bounced by sarnie barmy army

[Al R]

Apols for the tabloid-esque headline, I'm not sure what Major General James Cowan would make of a warmish and relatively raw Lady L's egg banjo spurting down the front of one's top.

Either way, he has taken the time to "hit out" in a "rant" about sandwiches. “Quite a few officers in the divisional mess seem to be under the impression that they can eat their food with their hands. The practice of serving rolls and sandwiches has to stop."

My bold and italics, but it suited the moment. You'll have to take a moment to subscribe to the Sun Online to read any more. But if you're the sort of 'chap' (that's going to set pulses racing too I imagine) to eat with your hands your log in details will never be more than a synapse away anyway.

Army?s barmy sarnie barney | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5486490/Army-Major-General-bans-sandwiches-at-base.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

“Quite a few officers in the divisional mess seem to be under the impression that they can eat their food with their hands. The practice of serving rolls and sandwiches has to stop."

Nothing wrong with rolls and sandwiches. The problem comes with finger buffets. Using a knife and fork with which to eat ones sandwiches and cakes for afternoon tea should not present a problem.



:}

[Al R]

When I first read that quote, it seemed to suggest the general was lamenting the fact that his army brethern had only mistakenly thought they had grasped how to eat with their fingers.

[500N]

Don't they serve finger food in messes in the uk ?


I would have thought he had bigger things to worry about !

[Wander00]

Maybe cucumber sarnies without crusts would be OK, as long as the little finger was crooked.

[Basil]

I'd understood that the sandwich first appeared in the peerage when eaten, at a card game, by The Earl of Sandwich, at one time First Lord of the Admiralty.
I'd have thought that most Army officers' messes would be happy to follow suit ;)
Well, with, perhaps, the exception of some of the Household Division.

[Tankertrashnav]

Using a knife and fork with which to eat ones sandwiches and cakes for afternoon tea should not present a problem.

Mental image of P-N tucking into his inflight sarnies with a knife and fork, napkin decorously draped down the front of his immersion suit!

No, sorry - can't see it ;)

Wander 00 - best things on the menu at Seletar officers' mess in 1967 were the cucumber sandwiches at afternoon tea, cut just as you described.

Last days of Empire!

[Al R]

Sandwiches among list of 'barbaric' practices banned by army commander - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10677230/Sandwiches-among-list-of-barbaric-practices-banned-by-army-commander.html)

I can see where he's coming from..

The letter penned by Maj Gen Cowan, who is in charge of 20,000 soldiers and 2,500 officers in 3 UK Division, most based at Bulford, also criticised poor grammar and writing, advising against the "wanton use of capitals, abbreviations and acronyms" because they can leave the reader exhausted.

His note gave a string of etiquette tips. Maj Gen Cowan advises on the correct way to use a knife and fork, saying "holding either like a pen is unacceptable."

On the subject of marriage he is equally direct, advising officers never to sit next to their spouse at dinner or risk showing insecurity. He also clearly outlines that he expects a junior officer to "make an effort at conversation" with one of their superiors.

[500N]

"failing to stand when commanders entered the room."

That's easily fixed by the Adjt.

[Basil]

Al R, I can see where he's coming from..
Isn't all that already covered in officer training - for those who didn't know at least some of it already?
Perhaps it's been displaced by the etiquette of the mobile 'phone/Facebook/Twitter etc ;)

[Trim Stab]

The bigger story here is that some disenchanted underling has leaked that memo to the press to undermine the boss...

[Pontius Navigator]

Mental image of P-N tucking into his inflight sarnies with a knife and fork, napkin decorously draped down the front of his immersion suit!

No, sorry - can't see it ;)

O ye of little faith.

Immersion suit? Not on the Nimrod. Sandwiches? Only toast and marmalade if you didn't mind spoiling you appetite for luncheon in the dinette. Birds Eye chicken pie or perhaps a delicate dish of honkers stew.

In the Shack, in the cold season I concede we had immersion suits and the wardroom was a little cramped for lunch. Where I had the choice I would use one of the arm chairs further back. :)

[mad_jock]

To be fair after reading the article there isn't that much wrong with what he says full stop in a professional environment.

And as for his comments about getting seated with the Mrs. That gets my vote as well. You want to be at least out of stabbing range under the table and preferably out of direct kicking range as well.

Maybe he should become a columnist for one of the newspapers.

[MFC_Fly]

What, no egg banjos or chip butties??? What is the world coming to :eek:

[Basil]

You want to be at least out of stabbing range under the table and preferably out of direct kicking range as well.
I'll drink to that! Our best was SWMBO giving me a nudge but failing to notice table was glass. To be honest, everyone was probably too pissed to notice either the nudge or the comment which engendered it anyway :}

[Davef68]

Knife and fork "The fork always goes in the left hand and the knife in the right. Holding either like a pen is unacceptable, as are stabbing techniques. The knife and fork should remain in the bottom third of the plate and never be laid down in the top half."


I've always thought there is a certain element of etiquette that is good practice and intended to prevent offence to others (don't eat soup with your fingers etc), and there is an element that is nothing more than an attempt to highlight those with the 'correct' upbringing and those without it, or to impose standards for no reason other than to have them. The last part of the above always struck me as one of those.


I wonder how the Major General eats the roll supplied with his soup?

[johnnypaveway]

;) Brig James (as was Comd 11X) was always an 18thC traditionalist who berated his staff or going to the gym on Op MASSIVE as he preferred his officers to cut a dash in uniform and "look good on horseback". Neither of which were achieved by your humble servant....he was a good boss though.

[Pontius Navigator]

Isn't pasta an exception? To the K&F rule that is. Much easier to manipulate pasta with a fork in the right hand.

Or is that Italian muck also conduct unbecoming with the risk of red splatter on one's dress shirt?

[mad_jock]

Thing is these standards aren't some posh way of doing things.

My grandparents weren't anything high and mighty, in fact grandma worked in the cotton mills in Lancashire as a weaver.

And gawd help any of us that didn't hold our knife and fork properly and if we even attempted to put elbows on the table you would get a belt round the ear.

And Basil does yours give out proxy rights to her mates if they are in range?

It isn't the eating of the sandwich's, or banjo's, bacon butties which is the issue, its the environment which you are eating them in. I presume Sir doesn't have a problem with said items when consumed on the range served up by either the slop jockeys or the Naffi wagon. His objection is when he enters a respectable area possibly with guests and he comes across the picture of people shovelling food off there plates into there mouths with there hand or worse not having a plate full stop.

[chopper2004]

I remember watching BBC2 Future War with Michael Ignatieff and the part Three mentioned how the next generation of US Army Officer cadets at West Point would gear up for the next war. There was b/w footage from either the 70s or 80s showing the Uppercalssmen/sophomores/ marching by the wall and wo betide at the dining hall table if a cadet was seen to take a wee bit more of a bite. The head of table (assuming an upperclassmen) would chew his head off by saying "don't you think that is a rather large bite you've taken Mr......." and the response from the cadet was "No sir, i do not" then the poor cadet would be made to do a ritual with his knife and fork "This is my Left Big Hook, this is My Right Big Hook " then shout something silly and put both down.

The then commandant of West Point mentioned in the interview how he underwent this draconian during his tenure as a student and immediately said it did not make sense at all to him at the time nor did it help him or anyone else become a better officer. Michael Ignatieff then said that the chow hall at WP was more relaxed and came across as the same atmosphere as an university.

[Sloppy Link]

Not standing up when Commanders enter the room? Sod the adjutant, it is the Commanders themselves who should be gripping this, one bollocking about the issue and word soon gets round.

[chopper2004]

When I was in the UOTC - one of our CO (Dragoons ) came into the lecture room, I'd straight away spy him and leap of my chair and call the others to attention he would then motion me down with "Peace Peace peace" lol

Even when our adjt walked into the room, as soon as he sensed some1 was about to leap to attention, be motioned down before a whole classroom would jump...at worst 2 or 3 of us would be on our feet, at best ......none :E

Interesting enough if anyone remembers Episode 2 "Officers and Gentlemen " of Fighter Pilot, when the Regt SNCO entered on the first day, everyone got off the chairs to the female voice announcing room attention. The Rock Ape marched to the podium and everyone sat down. He said the first lesson was no one should stand to attention due to the noise of the chairs scraping back and disturbing the rest of the building but sit in the brace position.

[DeepestSouth]

Perhaps slight thread drift but has anyone, anywhere, got a copy of the semi-legendary 'Stradling' - much quoted and spoken of at Cranwell in the early 70's but I never actually saw one. I've managed to find one chapter online but nothing else despite several Googlings.

For those not familiar with it, 'Customs of the Service' by Gp Capt Stradling was the guide to etiquette. It included rules on what to wear on a Saturday when off base, when and to whom to raise your civvy hat, the etiquette of 'calling', when to arrive and leave various social functions (5 mins late for private dinner in case the hostess had been delayed), tipping your batman and so on.

It was all quite antiquated but nonetheless sound advice and, even today, I still abide by some of the rules!

[500N]

Sloppy

Agree. It would only take one.

[Wander00]

No, but I have a copy of Paul Condon's (much) later book "Hangar Doors" or similar somewhere. He and I were both flight commanders on "B" Sqn early 80s

[Davef68]

mad jock,

Same here, and I've brought my kids up the same way. However as I get older I seem to have a slight anarchic streak that seems to question some of these things, as I say standards because they are standards, not for any practical reason.

[Hangarshuffle]

You've only got to walk in any UK urban environ and see how many people eat fast food with their unwashed hands in the street - they are absolutely encouraged to do so. We also live in the age of handheld communication. Young people, very young people are speaking and communicating in almost a different language and this will increase.
Its only ever going to be so that these behavioural patterns will follow into the Services.
I'm not saying its a good thing but get with the zeitgeist and all that.
On some of his points he seems a bit dated, which is why the leaked article is attracting such attention.
What about using the aircrew feeders on carriers?... they weren't being slobs, just practical.
He's going to become a very exasperated man very soon if he goes on with it... he's trying to go back to the olden days and theyve gone, and not coming back.


* The navigator story on "Invincible" I was told where the navvy railed against one of the stewards for putting baked beans on the Officers Bridge menu (oh yes)...this story went around like wildfire and just made the man look snobbish and rather arrogant.(Baked beans were deemed only suitable for the sailors).

[Willard Whyte]

If 'enry VIII can eat chicken drumsticks with his hands then so can anyone else.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/criterion-production/images/1861-376253585d55f7b46a114f46335ff8b5/Private_Life_large.jpg

[GlobalNav]

Free world warriors really care about eating sandwiches in the officer's mess?
Next thing you know they will be wiping their hands on their carefully pressed camouflage battle dress uniforms. Tell me this is not the Boy Scouts.

[Pontius Navigator]

At the risk of damaging my green house, but since the thread is about etiquette:

It isn't the eating of the sandwich's, or banjo's, bacon butties which is the issue, its the environment which you are eating them in. I presume Sir doesn't have a problem with said items when consumed on the range served up by either the slop jockeys or the Naffi wagon. His objection is when he enters a respectable area possibly with guests and he comes across the picture of people shovelling food off there plates into there mouths with there hand or worse not having a plate full stop.

Or murdering apostrophes.

And Global Nav, which is the officer of whose mess you are referring? the officer's mess?



Tin hat, coat, scarf:suspect:

[NutLoose]

http://evidencemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/52260768-Small.jpg

"Yes... they feed us well, Bread with an assortment of delicious fillings..... the problem is someone forgot the cutlery old chap, bad form what!"

[GlobalNav]

@ Pontius. My mistake. Perhaps not an officer's mess at all.

But still. Warriors eat there, am I correct? And if so, what harm or offense can be imagined over eating with one's hands? Unless there is nothing more important to trouble one's mind with?

For the sake of true warriors' welfare, I might be concerned over the quality and quantity of the victuals, the atmosphere within which to enjoy them amongst one's comrades, and the quality of the beverages with which to wash it all down and lubricate the conversation. The wives club, or senior officers (much the same actually) might have other priorities, I suppose. Morale is such a subjective thing.

[airborne_artist]

The late Pere Artist was OOD one weekend in HMS Hound, or some such corvette-sized ship of the line in about 1954. He was a regular Seaman officer and one of the last to join BRNC aged 13.

An RNR officer joined the ship for a week of sea-training. The officer was of humble birth and somewhat fazed by the massed array of cutlery that faced him for dinner on Sunday evening in the wardroom. There were no other officers aboard.

"Don't worry" said Pere Artist. Follow me and you'll be fine.

Imagine PA's embarrassment when they both reached the cheese course with only a dessert fork and a teaspoon.

PA told the story against himself for many years afterwards. He too was of fairly humble birth but made Commodore, while his sister was a GP and a JP.

[N2erk]

At OCTU the only thing we were told about table etiquette was "salt should be piled at the side of your plate- you don't see HRH shaking her salt on her food like a truck driver" - we certainly didn't get 'practice eating' sessions like shown in Fighter Pilot or as practiced (I'm told) at Cranwell.
Standing for senior officers- ONCE on the sqn, at friday gnd training, boss walks in, jr officers stand, wheels sit kibbutzing. Boss reams out all of us, goes out "lets try this again properly". There was no repeat offense- ever. Visited another squadron on detachment- they didn't stand for their boss, which we considered very poor form (we stood up-much embarrassment).
Finger food- I would have starved to death if we hadn't had fried egg or chip or even chocolate sauce buttees for lunch on the sqn. Only once got to eat lunch in the mess. I was very refined though- I ate my buttees with my flying gloves on, so as not to get germs. We did however always carry a plastic fork on exercise, in the goonsuit shoulder pen pocket in lieu of a chinagraph.

[Wander00]

There was a famous practice lunch at Watton in about 65/66 prior to the Abandoned Earl presenting Standards to 97,98 and 115 Sqns. The alcohol-fuelled practice went so badly that the Stn Cdr decreed it would be re-run at 1700, sans alcohol

[mad_jock]

Well to be fair that was another one of his points :D Pontius

Which I also think was a fair comment.

[Al R]

The general is right to give at least pause for thought. Any army returning from extended periods of action needs to remember its roots and ethos - or cue lots of ".. huh, we never did this in Helmund".

Sometimes, to rediscover the baseline, he has to cast his net widely to get a few nibbles in return, rewind to the mid 80s and I imagine he would have been a JO of the type currently in his own sights, such is the effect that time served and tradition has on shoulders.

But why did he have to bring it up, doesn't he have a chain of command entrusted to keep things in line? The snitchy oik that couldn't see what this was about either, needs to reflect. Is the general anachronistic? I don't think so.. what's so wrong with standing up when a Commanding Officer enters the room?

The sarnies and sticky fingers tirade might be the shock tactic. At least I hope it is. I used to love mid morning marmite on toast at Larkhill.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The same old fart brass hats that lament the fact that young ones don't behave properly in the mess, are also the same old farts that were responsible for absolutely gutting service support of mess amenities.

The privileges of mess life as an officer are part of the recompense of the responsibilities inherent in holding a Queen's commission. I know that sounds elitist but I don't care.

Making supper at an officers mess like eating at a down market family restaurant means the service has lost any moral authority to demand the behavior that is implicit when sitting down to dine in the civilized setting that used to characterize mess life.

[GlobalNav]

Politeness, good hygiene, etiquette certainly have their merits.

I'd prefer my commanders' attention be turned to the integrity and motivation of their officer corps, their competence, selflessness, and devotion to country.

I am retired now almost two decades and recall nought of the details of the mess. But what comes to mind about the "old days" are the priorities of commanders, good and bad, and the effect they have on the true quality of the fighting forces.

[Melchett01]

I think the General's rant is in part a reminder of the need for manners but is also over the top and out of touch and serves only to illustrate why so many people would not voluntarily move back into an Officers' Mess. I would love to see his reaction to canapes at the Annual Reception.

The privileges of mess life as an officer are part of the recompense of the responsibilities inherent in holding a Queen's commission.

I'm not entirely sure what that means in this day and age, I certainly don't feel privileged to 'belong' to an institution that is run by largely appalling contractors who run the Mess purely for their own commercial gain and without any due regard for the members.

Big Pistons Forever is spot on. If the military wants the Mess to be something to inspire and for people to aspire to, they must first stop treating its members as cash cows and give people a reason to want to be part of a 'prestigious' organisation.

[Union Jack]

Not standing up when Commanders enter the room?

Surely the "Silent Service" is not the only one which follows the silent and non-disruptive practice of "sitting to attention" in such circumstances.

Jack

[muttywhitedog]

He's right though. War's have been lost due to the incorrect use of an apostrophe.

[Pontius Navigator]

The wives' club

While GN can't remember back 20 years I can remember the memorable happy hours (well some of them) at Waddo 40 odd years ago. Trays of chips would do the rounds and disappear in short order with nary a fork in sight. :)

[The_1]

I do remember being taught to stand up if a lady enters the Mess ante-room, about how to take snuff, crossing the cutlery, tilting the soup away from you, playing snooker after dinner with others more senior to you (and letting them win or smashing them depending on whether you got on or not with them), not to hide behind the newspaper or forget to bid good morning/evening before sitting at the table etc etc and it was all done in good jest, yet lessons for life.

Well I do agree that it's all worth saving but its not going to be easy.

Messes aren't officers' homes anymore. Its somewhere to have lunch, to have cheap beer or to stay during the week before rushing home at the weekend. A part of me says that this is a byproduct of Pay-As-You dine - messes have changed to become businesses, and to cater for the modern day - plated meals, sarnies. Even mixed Messes. Because the contractor had to squeeze the last penny out to stay afloat. I do remember a gang of us would go to the Mess after a long day, sit at the table, chat and have a pint. Then PAYD came in, quality went down, numbers went down and people didn't feel the need to spend an hour over dinner just to sample substandard food. The ethos of the Mess slowly eroded. But of course you can't put a price on ethos so who cared?

[rolling20]

IMHO standards have slipped since my day as a very frightened UAS student in the mess. We had it imbued in us that it was an honour and a privilege to enter the place and we respected it and its occupants accordingly. At a recent reunion bash, there were women in the gents, a Flight Lieutenant who used the F word loudly three times in succession and another of the same rank , who trod on my foot twice, without so much as a `sorry old boy!` Our party retired to a corner where we suddenly realised we had all become very old and the world had changed for the worst.

[500N]

I still can't understand everyone not standing when a senior officer enters the mess.

The rule for us was senior officers like OC, CO and of course the PMC.

[Neptunus Rex]

Our dear General airs his ignorance:
...advising against the "wanton use of capitals, abbreviations and acronyms"He forgot to include 'initialisms.'
BLT is an initialism, as it cannot be spoken as a word, but RADAR, which can be, is an acronym.
Pedantic ? Moi? He started it!
:8

[NutLoose]

http://www.evilskippyatwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Grammar-Police.jpg

[Melchett01]

At a recent reunion bash, there were women in the gents, a Flight Lieutenant who used the F word loudly three times in succession

Women in the gents - well it's all legal these days. But it's probably just as well you didn't spot the condom machine that you can find in some Mess toilets. I can only assume the women were stood in front of it blocking it from view.

And as for the F word - I assume you mean football? If so, don't worry, the football season only has a couple more months to run

[GlobalNav]

PN. Granted, haha. I suppose we all have memories of grand revelry, some even in the officer's mess. Memories have a way of being selective, malleable, wishful, sometimes distorted and obscured, depending on the circumstances. Never enhanced by worries of finger food or sensibilities of the wife's club, though. As I recall, anyway.

Cheers!

[NutLoose]

Tssk Officers and Gentlemen using the F word, disgusting, you wouldn't get the Pope using it :E

[tartare]

Found a copy of Customs of the Service (http://regimentalrogue.com/srsub/customs.htm) online for those who are interested.
Holy heck.
As a civilian I knew a little (Mr Vice is not a character in a porn movie) but don't ever pass the port to the right...?!!!
Something to do with one's sword hand perhaps...?

[langleybaston]

it's eating a sarnie or a roll whilst gripping the poor little thing with both fists that looks uncouth.

As for not standing as a senior enters room, I deprecate the modern practice of priests sidling into the church from the vestry, airily waving a hand "oh do sit down" and then launching into tedious Notices.
Given the purpose of the occasion is solemn, one is left wondering just when to don the solemn rig.
At least an entry by the front door, processing down the aisle, cannot be mistaken for other than "we're off!"

[Hangarshuffle]

Someone on the Daily Telegraph forum viciously makes the point he should have spent more time (when leading operations) winning these wars rather than whinnying about UK mess etiquette. ie £43 Billion down the drain to lose both Basra and Helmland. I don't agree with that but in the same light can see an argument.
But heck when you read and hear about how City Traders behave, how Lawyers behave I honestly don't think the Armed Forces have that much to worry about really.


Army commander bans sandwiches in attack on 'barbaric habits' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10677230/Army-commander-bans-sandwiches-in-attack-on-barbaric-habits.html)


Perhaps more worrying for the good General...the creeping criticism of the militaries conduct in the post wars post mortems.

[reynoldsno1]

it's eating a sarnie or a roll whilst gripping the poor little thing with both fists that looks uncouth
I believe it was P J O'Rourke who stated that any sandwich that didn't have to be eaten over a sink wasn't worth eating in the first place. I tend to concur, and add that two hands would be required to contain, at least partially, the filling.

[GlobalNav]

And require no less than two pints to wash down?

[NutLoose]

So I take it a fork is de rigueur when having a good muffin.... :ouch:

[Roadster280]

It would be appear to be acceptable to be pompous about:

- the location of cutlery,
- the method of wielding them
- his perception of sandwiches being inappropriate

...yet using military abbreviations and avoiding overly simplistic English is pompous and therefore to be avoided? What does he prefer - "big" or "large". Would he rather see "bullets" or "ammunition"?

Manners are important, but that's where it ends.

The General needs a word with himself. GOC 3 Div may be stuck in the 1930s, but the rest of the world isn't.

Sorry, I used a couple of abbreviations!

[500N]

I always thought the military was the worst for abbreviations.

[Tankertrashnav]

I remember at Catterick back in the 60s a chap who had been an officer in a smart cavalry regiment who had left under a cloud, somehow or other got himself a commission in the RAF Regiment, which he naively thought would be similar to being in the 17th/21st Lancers.

He discovered that in the mess on a Saturday, afternoon tea and dinner were merged into "high tea" * at around 6pm. He was appalled, stating that he had never heard of such a meal, and invariably went out to dinner on a Saturday night.

Not sure what he would make of the regime these days.

* Not, as is often erroneously assumed, cakes and sticky buns, but a cooked meal of the "mixed grill " type, possibly even accompanied by, horror of horrors, baked beans!

[Willard Whyte]

18:00 is far too early to eat. Drink yes, but eat? Not until 20:00 surely?

Anyhoo, dining in the mess on a Saturday? Should be down the local kebab vendor.

[bill2b]

Hanger shuffle
You've only got to walk in any UK urban environ and see how many people eat fast food with their unwashed hands in the street - they are absolutely encouraged to do so.

I cannot remember any occasion when I rushed off to wash my charcoal and hydraulic oil covered hands before eating my long awaited egg banjo during the down phase of a tacival.

[Pontius Navigator]

before eating my long awaited egg banjo during the down phase of a tacival.

You had a down phase, luxury my boy. At Coningsby things were hard, very hard, certainly while the WAFs shared the Hards over night.

[Pontius Navigator]

accompanied by, horror of horrors, baked beans!

Ah yes, the baked beans.

We had to share the mess at Machrihanish with an RNlN squadron whilst they were on exercise and we were on bolthole. This was a mixed blessing. Being Navy they came with their 16mm projector and a good selection of the latest films. The downside was that dinner moved to high tea and high tea consisted of sausages, beans and chips every day for a fortnight.

It was a relief to get airborne, gas off, and get some decent scran.

[Basil]

Mad Jock,And Basil does yours give out proxy rights to her mates if they are in range?
I don't think so, but her sister has been known to correct one's unacceptable prejudices :*
West Coast burds, you can always tell them - but not much ;)

[mad_jock]

I can imagine what those prejudices are.

Not shagging your blood cousin and various abuse pointed at gingers.

Aye its just not worth wasting breath on.

I spent 12 months trying to convince 5 of them that turning the thermostat up to 40 degrees max setting will have absolutely zero effect on how fast the building will heat up. The concept that the boiler will wack out max chat until it gets up to 22 degrees then maintain that temp was just alien to them. Then they would open the windows because it was to hot when they came back in.

[teeteringhead]

TTN

We had a somewhat similar "Horsey" officer at the. Secret Hampshire Helicopter Base in the early 70s.

He hunted, and one Saturday lunchtime found him in the bar in full John Peel.kit for a sharpener (stirrup cup?) before going off on Henry the Horse to chase foxes.

After a short consultation, the assembled flying officers threw him out - possibly via window - for wearing "sports kit"!;)

And I've still got a copy of Stradling! Best bit is the chapter giving advice to Junior Officers visiting the Sgts' Mess!

[NutLoose]

TH
I often wondered, who's were the horses near the end of the disused runway opposite the O mess and on the way around to what was the OCU at the time, there were three if i remember correctly, one being a foal, I used to give the odd one an apple on the way to work in the morning.

[boxmover]

Would The idea of working for General "stuck in 1913" get any top class person to think about joining the Army?

No I don't think so.

So for the good of the Army the best think would be a very very public kick in the nads from the chief of staff.

[BEagle]

PN wrote: Ah yes, the baked beans.

As is well known, beans are not an officer's vegetable!

Re. the full Jorrocks kit, at pre-pongo Wattisham we had a very pretty little air trafficker who was a keen horse-ist. During a pause from Summer Ball decoration duties one lunchtime, we spotted her in her tight jodhpurs, long black boots and horse hat, setting off from the OM on her bike to do some horseabatics. Cue much whistling and waving from the assembled 56(F) throng, together with "Fiona, it's only a bike - you don't need all that kit but we do like the look!". The little lovely merely said something rather unladylike, smiled sweetly and continued on her way.

I can still picture her in those jodhs.....:E NURSE!!

[Fortissimo]

ISTR said lady at Wattisham used to offer what was known as an '0898 Talkdown' on night PARs when it was quiet. This involved lots of non-standard phraseology such as "Left a bit more, up a bit... Oh Yes! There! That's it! Don't stop..." etc, along with some other associated sound effects.

The Edwardian General would probably have succumbed to apoplexy had he heard one, or at least had to go and wash his hands! On second thoughts, he probably wouldn't have understood it anyway, as he insists on eating everything with a knife and fork. ;)

[Basil]

Best bit is the chapter giving advice to Junior Officers visiting the Sgts' Mess!
Haven't seen it but I'd guess advice similar to visiting an RN wardroom:
"Watch the blighters - they'll try to get you absolutely wasted!" :E

[BEagle]

Fortissimo, she did?

Initials FT - in 1982/3.

[NutLoose]

I alway thought Army officers used to eat their sandwich products with a knife and fork for hygene reasons, because they were not properly potty trained.

[Fortissimo]

Beagle, sadly a different F, though equally decorative from the sound of it.

To return to the thread though, check this out! Gen Cowan's Edict - A Reply | Army Rumour Service (http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/gen-cowans-edict-a-reply.211041/)

[smujsmith]

It's been a while since I went "down route", but is this chap suggesting his pongoes, on a long C130 trip, are to refuse the "buttyboxes" offered ? I well remember swapping an ACC (Mr Beagle will know) for a butty box with an Army Major. I was grateful for the exchange, and found the sandwiches more than satisfactory. On the subject of egg banjo's none better than the NAAFI in Malta circa 1973. Real bacon, squirty egg accompanied with a pint of Hop leaf could not be bettered.

Smudge :ok:

[wiggy]

at pre-pongo Wattisham we had a very pretty little air trafficker

As I recall chaps we were blessed with more than one.....:E

Sorry, I digress, back to food.........

[BEagle]

wiggy, we were indeed! As well as another Fiona, the Bloodhound EC.

But there was also she who was later to be known elsewhere variously as 'The Money Monster' or 'Mrs Doubtfire'....:eek:

On the subject of food, I'm amazed that anyone would swap an ACC (Chicken curry and rice) for an S1 box - particularly during the era of the Robirch pork pie. Which would often be so stale that if you shook it, you could hear the congealed lump of ex-piggy (trotters and tail) rattling around inside the concrete hardened crust like a dice in a cup...

[Flight_Idle]

Ranking vegetables.


This is how it was explained to me when I joined up in the early seventies...


Officers' beans... Mung beans, cooked in Champagne.


SNCO's beans... Heinz beans (Heated, but not boiled)


Airmens' beans... Tesco value beans (Boiled well)


Could be different these days, I guess.

[smujsmith]

Mr Beagle, your #78,

At an average of 278 days a year being fed ACC as my "standard fare" a butty box now and again never went amiss. I never experienced the joy of the rattling pork pie, unfortunately, perhaps that was the preserve of commissioned types:hmm: I must admit, Lynehams in flight catering took some beating.

Smudge:ok:

[BEagle]

smujsmith, at the superior Oxonian aerodrome, we used to specify our preferred meal for each flight when we did things properly on the RAF's premier tanker squadron. Including on any 3-5 hr trip. Until, that is, the shiny loadmasters became involved when we were dumbed down to the execrable 10101 nonsense, because they couldn't be ar$ed to liaise with the ever-helpful folk at in-flight. So a diet of S1 boxes became the norm on any flight which wasn't a 'route' as they considered an AAR trip to be a 'local'.....

The rattling swine pie was a phenomenon of the early 1980s, now consigned to history!

[Wrathmonk]

BEags

When were you at Wattisham .... trying to match names/faces to your 'clues'!

[BEagle]

Wrathmonk, I was at RAF Wattisham from Sep 1981 - Oct 1983.

[smujsmith]

Beagle,

Heh heh, I too once believed the bumph that said we could "pre choose" our meals when setting off "en route". Unfortunately we had a chap wearing the acronym SAGE (Senior Aircraft ground Engineer) a Flight Seargeant no less. Whatever we chose for our first route, would suffice for the rest of our time (it was on his computer, and never varied). Hence six years of AA for breakfast and ACC for lunch. It was, after a few months, a pleasure to take "loadies choice" once clear of the establishment in Wiltshire, although, like you I believe that RAF in flight catering tends toward the very best. Its sad that you chaps ended up with butty boxes when tanking, I'm sure they could be as gruelling as some standard routes, probably more so.


Smudge:ok:

[Blacksheep]

While I was in the FEAF shooting team we once entertained the CinC Far East Forces to luncheon at Nee Soon Range during the annual inter-services match. He wasn't the least bit bothered about eating Roti Chanai with his fingers, dunking pieces in the communal curry bowl. He declared the food served in the army mess tent was "dire". I rather suspect it was really our ice cold Tiger beer that attracted him, though.

I think the classiest food I ever ate in the Royal Air Force was when "minesweeping" the galleys of our VVIP Andovers at Northolt during after-flight servicing. The smoked salmon, caviar, vol au vents and other expensive VVIP leftovers were all "finger food".

[thing]

I only ever got the white box of doom when travelling as pax on 130's, VC10 etc. However new culinary delights were revealed when travelling with the E3's. It was almost palatable.

I saved up my air miles and travelled back from Oz business class last year on SIA. I was chatting to my steward who remembered the RAF being at Changi, in fact his father worked there in some capacity or other. I was telling him about the 130 and 10 and he asked me what the food was like as he set my table for a starter of duck breast and plum dressing with a champagne aperitif. 'Much like this' I said. 'Gosh, you guys were the best' he replied with admiration.

Who was I to etc etc...:)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Being not inclined to examine n pages of jolly dits, I summarise by saying that I believe His Browness has a point. Standards, tradition and discipline at this level has gone to the foxhounds. The Wardroom and Mess, when not actually cleared for action, is a place to eat by civilised standards. if you only want a butty, isn't the place for that the ante room or your local friendly feeder?

My first experience of a none Flag wardroom was Culdrose in '76. In normal conversation, the Air Force was derided for allowing working rig (eg growbags) in their Mess. The Navy only allowed it in the ante room. I was a bit miffed at the time as I was still largely Real Air Force orientated. Years and experience, though, revealed the logic. Let go of one standard and a shed load of others follow it.

OK, I'm old fashioned and it's no longer my concern; but I still care.

[thing]

GBZ, I became a teacher when I left the mob and one of my headmasters was a stickler for correct uniform. He would pounce on a minor misdemeanour such as having the wrong colour socks. I once asked him why he was so keen about enforcing school uniform policy. 'Because if you win the battle of the socks you don't have to fight the battle of the shirt or shoes' he replied. I learned a lot from that guy.

[Tankertrashnav]

Beagle - having only flown on the Victor, your tales of the culinary delights available on later tankers fill me with envy.

There was, in fact, provision for hot food on the Victor in the form of a can heater. A can of soup inserted in this device shorly after engine start would, with any luck, be luke warm by the time you reached top of descent after a longish sortie. Thus the device was carried around as a useless (and unused) bit of extra payload for the lifetime of the aircraft!

[SOSL]

Archetypal example of Sun headline quoted by OP. Good to see the sub-editors are still on song.


Also the Major General doesn't have to bother with scolding his chaps about how they write (use of capitals etc) he just needs to refer them to JSP 101 (if it still exists!).


I've just had my lunch, a still warm slice of topside with serious horseradish sandwiched between 2 slices of farmhouse bread and butter (x2)






Rgds SOS

[FODPlod]

...I've just had my lunch, a still warm slice of topside with serious horseradish sandwiched between 2 slices of farmhouse bread and butter (x2)

How fascinating. What manner of farm labourer are you?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

JSP 101 does still exist but it's now a "guide", not an instruction. http://www.da.mod.uk/publications/library/miscellaneous/JSP101%20Version%203-1%20June%202010.pdf It can be disregarded as standards are now optional.

[Wander00]

GBZ - does that include spelling and punctuation -what will Staff College tutors do with their time.

A few months ago had the bizarre experience of going to a friend's for supper, to find myself sitting opposite my BSC tutor from 1986.

[Pontius Navigator]

the Victor in the form of a can heater. A can of soup inserted in this device shorly after engine start

Ah, the V-force can heater.

Did you have the same mount as in the Vulcan?

First attempt, pierce triangular holes on opposite sides of can. Insert can in heater. As it heated soup on the low side, or both middle sides, would leak out.

Second attempt, pierce two triangular holes on same side and ensure these remained top side in the heater which was mounted at an angle. Why did they design it that way?

[ValMORNA]

As we seem to be in an inflight-catering mode, perhaps I can mention the Type 52 Resistance unit as used in old flying machines which used the Receiver R1155. This unit dropped the aircraft 24v down to 18v for said receiver, while the T1154 used the full 24v whack. It was a circular unit, open at the top with a wire mesh. In the UK it was very handy for warming things like pork pies, but not so much use in the Middle East. We - dare I say it? - ate them with our bare hands, although the commissioned crew members may have had a china plate, knife and fork and pristine linen serviette. In the ME we had the ubiquitous white box with, probably, 2 buttered bread rolls, a piece of fruit perhaps and always a hard-boiled egg. How I loved those eggs; look to the rear out of the astrodome, remove Verey pistol and release the egg through the hole. It flew under the tailplane IIRC and landed somewhere in the sand below. It is rumoured that one of our navs, a reconstituted WW2 veteran with an 'O' brevet, could follow the trails along our routes.

[Tankertrashnav]

although the commissioned crew members may have had a china plate, knife and fork and pristine linen serviette.


serviette?

SERVIETTE? :eek:

Napkin, old chap, napkin :=

The good general would be shocked!

;)

[NutLoose]

I still cannot look at a chicken drumstick without thinking of the cling film wrapped plastic tasting miniature Biafrian chicken drumsticks the RAF used to stick in the butty boxes of the 70's

[bspatz]

In the 1970s when I was regularly chauffeured around the globe by the RAF’s AT force there was little doubt that the preferable way to travel was by 53 Sqn Belfast and in terms of catering they were in a league of their own. When down route the loadies frequently used to bypass in-flight catering and head for the local supermarket/deli returning laden with gastronomic delights which would be served throughout the following flight. My memories of the running buffets that were laid out on the bandstand, can compete favourably with some of the better meals that I have had in up market restaurants.

[goudie]

When 46 Sqdn re-equipped with Andovers, quite a few flights were down route to Malta etc. We had a Loadie whose last tour had been on the Comet VIP flight at Lynham...his name was Dudley. He would appear on the flight deck with a tray of beautifully arranged sandwiches, sans crusts and decoratively garnished. Everyone was quite hesitant in choosing a delicacy in case it spoiled the array.

[ValMORNA]

TTN,


You really must be more precise, Sir. Do you mean Table napkin or 'diaper'?

[Pontius Navigator]

I still cannot look at a chicken drumstick without thinking of the cling film wrapped plastic tasting miniature Biafrian chicken drumsticks the RAF used to stick in the butty boxes of the 70's

On a V-det to Tengah the Sqn Cdr thought his OBE would be enhanced by a cocktail party with said drumsticks. They were either flown in from Biafra or we provided a month's worth of chicken supremes in the Mess as the cost was astronomic.

[Whenurhappy]

I had the misfortune a few years ago to be sentenced to six months in a mess in Aldershot. It was one of the most miserable places I have had to live in. The anteroom would be occupied by JOs draped over the furniture - in sports kit - scoffing plated-up meals from the kitchen, feeding titbits to their four-legged pals. Consequently the Dining Room was all but empty and mess life all but non-existent. I was SLIM and spoke with the couldn't-care-less PMC about the quality of food and lack of mess life and his response was along the lines of 'that's what they want'. Fast-forward a couple of months and a new PMC. Out went plated meals, out went relaxed dress in piblic rooms, out went the dire menus. In came a return to 'traditional' standards and what was the result? Officers made an effort to change for dinner and evening meals became very popular as the caterers improved the menu by serving piping hot freshly-cooked food by silver service (which they were contracted to do). High tea was reduced in size and scope thus encouraging members to dine later. The bar hours were altered to be open before dinner (apparently hitherto an alien concept); all in all it became a mildly pleasant place to live. Curry nights became particularly well attended.

When I transferred to the RAF in 1990, I was surprised by a number of things: flying overalls in public rooms, baked beans served a vegetable and JOs not introducing/excusing themselves from the PMC or Stn Cdr when leaving the bar. Common courtesy, I thought.

[Tankertrashnav]

You really must be more precise, Sir. Do you mean Table napkin or 'diaper'?

Touché ! :ok:

[Willard Whyte]

JOs not introducing/excusing themselves from the PMC or Stn Cdr when leaving the bar.

Ballocks. What business is it of someone else if one needs to urinate, for example?

"Sorry I've p*ssed on the floor 'sir', I couldn't find you in time to excuse myself"

Standards are one thing, that's just mental! We're adults (well, most of us), not school children.

[Whenurhappy]

WW - perhaps I should have qualified that by saying 'at Mess events'. I would hope that if you left a dinner party, for example, you would thank your hosts and bid them good night. Again, common courtesy.

But as others have noted CRL/PAYD has done more to kill off mess life than anything else in recent decades. And yes, the author of CRL did get the OBE...

[Pontius Navigator]

WW - perhaps I should have qualified that by saying 'at Mess events'.

As a young JO the occasion never arrived. We were enjoined not to leave before the guests so excusing an early departure never arose.

Later, with drink driving and dining-in nights becoming a parade I would spend an evening sipping a glass of wine, taking water rather than port, and departing as soon as the meal was over to let the drinkers get on with it.

On Port, when did they stop passing with Madeira.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

Later, with drink driving and dining-in nights becoming a parade I would spend an evening sipping a glass of wine, taking water rather than port, and departing as soon as the meal was over to let the drinkers get on with it.

Wasn't leaving right after the meal considered a protest for a 3-line whip attendance at said dining-in night?

[Big Pistons Forever]

The date: 1984

The Evil Deed: A Canadian Forces "box lunch". This was a white cardboard box with one sandwich consisting of mushy white bread around a lump of mystery meat and a piece of limp lettuce. It was accompanied by a mushy partly brown apple and a box of milk already past its best before date.

The Story: Us 4 Junior Officers were told we had to re-qualify on the Browning 9mm pistol. We set off to the range with an instructor and a new recruit helper and after the mornings' fun sent the helper off to the galley to get our box lunches. He stops the first galley wallah he sees and tells him he he is here to "pick up the 6 box lunches".
Our first clue something was different was the fact that the lunches were in fancy brown boxes with a decorative scroll on them. Imagine our surprise when we open the box and find a cold lobster tail, assorted nice vegetables all carved into tasteful designs, a box of exotic fruit juices, and a fresh baked jumbo cookie. :cool:

The Catch: The Defense Minister, The Chief of Defense Staff and 4 senior staffers were being flown to an out station on a CF Buffalo. Since the flight was over the lunch hour the squadron had ordered catering, six "special" box lunches to be specific......

The Next Day: I was peremptorily summoned to the CO's office :uhoh: and confronted by a very angry Chief of Staff to the CDS. He accused me of stealing the "special" box lunches and embarrassing the Chief in front of the Minister by making him eat a standard CF Box Lunch.

I explained the young helper had simply taken the box lunches he was given and that if there was a mix up it was at the galley. Then because I was a Jacky young JO I added " I always thought it was OK for the senior officers to eat the same food as the troops". This statement was meant with a stony silence and a one word reply...... "Dismissed !" :ok:

I can still remember the taste of that delicious lobster tail :E

[langleybaston]

A TRUE tale of accidental greed. Details hazy, smell well remembered.

Whilst awaiting a MQ and CallFam at JHQ Rheindahlen I lived in.

Our evening shift in the Main Met Office ended at 2100. This being after normal dinner time entailed booking a late meal, and this was done at breakfast time.

So I asked the corporal what was on offer. "Nice piece of steak sir, chips, onions etc etc". A no-brainer.

Around 1200 I wandered into the dining room for a quick lunch before work, greeted by a fabulous smell of steak, onions, chips. A no-brainer.

Did the evening shift, back on the bike downhill, and went in to dine. Fabulous steak, onions, chips as pre-ordered.

The [I]deja vu moment took ages to happen. If I had my time all over again I would do it again, too.

When I read the sorry tales about Messes, dining and behaviour these days I thank my lucky stars that I am well out of it and had the best years. Professional RAF Mess staff, and old-school PMCs. Thanks corporal!

[Pontius Navigator]

Wasn't leaving right after the meal considered a protest for a 3-line whip attendance at said dining-in night?

Yes. Typically when your unit was allocated X-places without regard to the number of available officers.

However back in the 60s we had an outstanding Doctor who had been rushed in to uniform so quickly that he missed the knife, fork and spoon course at Cranditz. He had also not done any aviation medicine training.

It fell to us JOs to teach him etiquette and AvMed. He was an avid learner.

Now he noticed that dining-in nights, which were popular, were allocated by units and taken up by marrieds. He pointed out to the PMC that the Mess, while being the social centre of the station was also his home and it was a rank discourtesy excluding him, or any other livers in from the DI. (I did say he was an avid learner).

Thereafter all dining in places were offered to livers in and only the spare places were then offered to the livers out. It worked brilliantly.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

PN,

Good story and that young Doctor was a quick learner.

I only left one dining-in night directly after the meal. While I was in a certain tandem rotor helicopter IPT, and for some reason that I couldn’t fathom, the section head decided to call a 3-line-whip at Taranto night at a secret RNAS airfield south of Bristol. WokkaDoctor (note he wasn't Canadian until after later) nursed one glass of wine throughout the meal and the skits, then drank water at the Loyal Toast. I waited until senior members and guests had exited the room (turning right to head for the bar), left it a few more minutes for the rest of the JOs to leave, then made a be-line for the door and turned left to the foyer just as my boss was exiting the boys room; being a bit worse for ware he started to offer to buy me a drink - without breaking step I wished him a good evening, walked briskly out of the building and drove home. Nothing was said the following Monday, I think those that stayed got so drunk that they forgot that I’d left early.

[Wander00]

Best thrash going, Taranto Night at Wyton, most years. We also did a couple at Worthy Down in the late 80s

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

As a young JO the occasion never arrived. We were enjoined not to leave before the guests so excusing an early departure never arose.

Only once did I ask to be excused in such a manner. In my defence, I had just broken my nose during a game of mess rugby and was quite spectacularly bleeding from both nostrils over my mess kit and the bar carpet, so no offence appeared to have been taken...

[WASALOADIE]

I've just seen this, brilliant piece of work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OISUSSff0Zg&app=desktop

[langleybaston]

The acid test is:

will the General be amused?

Let us hope so.

[Genstabler]

He will be!

[goudie]

The good General will be dining out/in on all this kerfuffle, for years to come.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

RAF Mess life was murdered in the late 1980's - I was a witness. There were 3 main killers:
1) Different rules for different people. After the 'Fighter Pilot' Beans-on-Toast incident, fast jet aircrew were required to live-in until LCR. So, a graduate fighter pilot could not be trusted to live-out until age 25, but an LAC scribbly could live out at 18. I challenge anyone to find a bigger insult within an institution. VSO credibility subterranean; and even more depressing was that your leadership actually thought it would work.
2) Mindless penny pinching. The entire point of mess life was that it was stress-free. Jobsworth systems (I won't blame the individuals) requiring you to fill myriad forms in, and taking myriad 50p's off you for services you hadn't asked for or used made mess life a pain. PAYD just mutilated the body.
3) Enforcement. The RAF decided to bring in PACE and chase down every little rule infraction. I remember my first 2am kitchen raid in 1983 - my biggest worry was slipping on the rope down from the skylight, as I would have hit Harry Staish who was leading the raid. By 1989, a colleague was involved in a kitchen raid disciplinary case that dragged on for 7 months, to no ultimate effect.

Mess membership dropped by over 50% in one year, and 75% in two - and it's all been downhill from there.

By contrast

My first experience of a none Flag wardroom was Culdrose in '76. In normal conversation, the Air Force was derided for allowing working rig (eg growbags) in their Mess. The Navy only allowed it in the ante room. I was a bit miffed at the time as I was still largely Real Air Force orientated. Years and experience, though, revealed the logic. Let go of one standard and a shed load of others follow it.
I pitched up at an RNAS airfield with a broken jet. PMC-equivalent rigidly forbade us from using any facilities in flying kit, then immediately detailed 2 suitably sized fellow officers to provide us with regulation rig and host us for our entire stay. Proper standards. And since our jet broke whilst providing a Navy Day demo, we didn't have to buy a drink either.

[Al-bert]

Looks like the chaps have been eating too many pies as well :=

RAF fatties ordered to lose their excess cargo | The Sunday Times (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Defence/article1388125.ece)

[BEagle]

Al-bert wrote: Looks like the chaps have been eating too many pies as well

RAF fatties ordered to lose their excess cargo | The Sunday Times

It must be such fun in today's RAF if that's the sort of thing with which the top brass bother themselves.....:rolleyes:

[Al-bert]

dinner is cancelled until morale improves? :uhoh: