Ramp Check Advice From CASA.

[Sunfish]

It was just brought to my attention that CASA has published a guide to undergoing a ramp check. At last! I thought. A definitive guide to exactly what I must do to survive a ramp check! CASA has actually listened to the pleadings of GA pilots who want to know exactly how to comply with the regulations....


http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100209/ramp-checks-ga.pdf

So I started reading:


1. Licence and medical certificate, check. ...But where does it say I need photographic ID in the regulations? I usually do, but if for some reason I have just had my wallet stolen does this mean I can't fly?

It also doesn't say that if I need glasses then I must also carry a spare pair, that requirement has tripped up a number of people.

2. A navigation/fuel log?? I generarrly pencil my position and time on my chart to prove I've ascertained my position every half hour as required by the regs, but a fuel log?? I do a fuel plan before I fly to ensure there is sufficient and then some, but a log? I guess I can, but what do they actually want?

Weather and notams, check, downloaded from naips either printed or electronic on my phone or iPad.

Time limitations? Me???

Appropriate current charts and documents? Here is that word again..... appropriate What is appropriate? Appropriate by whose standards? I'm flying a bay scenic, the VTC covers the area, do you want me to carry charts for the maximum possible range I can fly with my current or former fuel load in case I get a rush of blood to the ehad and take off in another direction? What documents? I have ERSA and sometimes the visual flight guide, , you want more? For what? When am I going to read them without an autopilot?

Are you using an EFB? Too bloody right! Ozrunways! But what are these "considerations" of which you speak??? Is this just another "gotcha"?

Have I submitted a flight plan (if required by AIP) Me? Probably. Are you going to check if I've complied with it?

3. Ahh the aircraft....

Maintenance release signed off and kosher, check.

Flight manual up to date. How the *&^% would I know? It comes with the aircraft.

Checklists up to date and accessible? They are in the manual, again, how would I know if they have changed?

Evidence of weights, check. I do weight and balance and write it down when I'm touring. That usually means full fuel, the missus and half a dozen bags. I do that always at the start of the trip. She can't lie about her weight either..

Cargo weights and appropriate securing equipment... There is that word again.... appropriate! Appropriate by whose standards? I use the best Bunnings ratchet strap tie downs or Spectra rope that is stronger than steel... Is this appropriate? Yes I know its not certified, so does that mean I get busted for using non certified parts as well as not using the "appropriate" Cessna cargo net?

Load sheet, check.

Required emergency equipment? What equipment? I'm not flying over water and I have a personal beacon.


So I guess I'm none the wiser...and what about all those stories of nitpicking and suchlike???

[VH-XXX]

So I guess I'm none the wiser...

It's just a checklist to use as a reminder. It doesn't cover every single piece of legislation.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Don't flagellate yourself Sunny - I been flying for 40 yrs and have never been ramped!

A couple of blokes waved to me as I was about to taxy out in a C402 once. I think they would have liked for me to stop and chat :E, but the door was closed and the engines were running, so I just waved back - and kept on taxying! :ok:

Dr :8

[Ixixly]

Dr, just purely out of interest, but did the doors close and the engines start just a wee bit quicker than usual upon first eyeing these gentleman moving around? :E

[Horatio Leafblower]

Flight manual up to date. How the *&^% would I know? It comes with the aircraft.

Can't remembe what you fly chum but your LAME should be able to do a quick document search on the manufacturer's website to make sure you have the current document.

We inherited a Chieftain from another operator when the closed up - it included a PA31 MEL for a different aircraft registration (and a quick check showed that registration belonged to a C310 with the same operator) and a PA31 "FCOM" which included advice to remove tail stands and references to CAWI.

There was certainly no Aircraft flight manual/POH :ugh:

They were very upset (as I recall) that CASA had shut them down and cried long and hard about how unfair and unreasonable it was :rolleyes:

AAAAAAAnyway.... Piper, Cessna and Beech all publish document checklists on their sites - your LAME will be able to check if you can't.

Cheers

[Howard Hughes]

30 years, 3 ramp checks, all non events really! :ok:

As for the fuel log: Fuel at start up - fuel burnt = fuel remaining onboard.:}

[djpil]

1. Licence and medical certificate, check. ...But where does it say I need photographic ID in the regulations?Take a look at the new Part 61 eg 61.340. My current licence has my pic on it - the FAA accepted it as a photo ID to carry with me their regs (was told this when I got my USA licence re-validated recently).

but a fuel log??No current requirement per the regs but an excellent idea regardless.

Weather and notams, check, downloaded from naips either printed or electronic on my phone or iPadNo requirement to carry a copy.

Appropriate current charts and documents?Seems like an appropriate item - much better than the very prescriptive and onerous draft Part 91 that I recall.

Are you using an EFB? Too bloody right! Ozrunways! But what are these "considerations" of which you speak???Read the CAAP and understand what requirements apply to you.

Flight manual up to date. How the *&^% would I know? It comes with the aircraft.If you are not the owner or operator then just check that the aeroplane has an AFM (if it is required for that aircraft).

Evidence of weights, check. I do weight and balance ....No requirement to carry W&B data with you.

[Arm out the window]

Photo ID - surely the mugshot on your ASIC works for that?

[Aussie Bob]

So I guess I'm none the wiser...Sunny, neither am I, I followed your link and found the document. I then referred to the CASA ramp check "What Happens Now" brochure I got with the last RAA rag, obviously ramp checking documents are the flavour of the month.

The one I received is for Sports Pilots and recommends:

"It is also suggested that you carry a copy of your log book page with last flight review".Dreadful English, words fail me. You either need to carry this or you don't. On what basis are suggestions? Who writes this ****e?

[djpil]

You either need to carry this or you don't. On what basis are suggestions? Who writes this ****e?probably the same schoolkids who wrote the Part 61 regs.

[Wally Mk2]

A lot of that could be looked at being subjective, also depends on who's doing the ramp check I imagine 'cause as we all know CASA don't even know themselves half the time what's req'd or needed for almost anything under their control.
I've been ramped about 6 times over my career, from basic paperwork stuff to a bloody thorough insp of the machine I was about to board, that A/C was grounded due a suspect cabin door lock on the old PA31, if you pulled hard enuf on the handle anyone can open any old Chieftan door handle!
Got looked over in Vanuatu once as well, looking for Kava juice I think:)
Another was by the 'scaleies' up at BH in the 80's whilst en-route to the BDV races, (ah the good 'ole days) my plane C182 was the only one that got airborne after that as I only had 3 bums on-board (2 x girls....what a trip!:E) the rest of my flying party had to dump bags, booze, esky's etc etc etc & swear to the all mighty never to do that again:-)
Last one at Shepparton a few years ago in the old Beech, looking for drugs I think which we had plenty of:E Want a shot there officer? What's yr poison there buddy:E

Wmk2

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re "
"It is also suggested that you carry a copy of your log book page with last flight review".

"Nah!!"
Oi think O'ill just carry the original....and let it burn with me....

Strict Liability = 50 K penalty units....to be 'collected' from my estate..??

:uhoh:

[601]

2. A navigation/fuel log??


CAR 220
(2) An operator shall maintain a record of the fuel remaining in the tanks at the end of each scheduled flight and shall review continuously the adequacy of the instructions in respect of the fuel to be carried in the light of that record, and shall make any such record available to CASA, upon request.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

I cannot see how recording the fuel remaining in the tanks at the end of a scheduled flight improves the safe operation of an aircraft.

For my own twisted idea of self-preservation, I was always more interested in the amount of fuel on board at the START of a flight.

What does "scheduled flight" in this context mean?

[LeadSled]

Flight manual up to date. How the *&^% would I know? It comes with the aircraft.
Checklists up to date and accessible? They are in the manual, again, how would I know if they have changed?

Sunfish,
Becomes an interesting legal issue, doesn't it, where the PIC is responsible, before commencement of each flight, and must ensure that the AFM ( by whatever name) including the AFM checklist is on board, if there is an AFM for the aircraft.

This is not "just" a CASA requirement, it is a requirement of the certification of the aircraft.

As having the AFM on board is part of the certification (usually by manufacturer's part number on the TCDS), not having it on board violates the original certification, and hence invalidating the Australian type acceptance certificate, thereby voiding the Australia CASA issued C.of A.

What a nice daisy chain.

It is most certainly not any LAME's responsibility, any more than the a LAME is responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft -- that is the responsibility of the registered operator, who is also responsible for all required maintenance being carried out -- not the LAME who certifies return to service.

Bottom line, you can go to jail for flying an aircraft that does not have a valid C.of A. Even worse is what the insurance company (if any) or other aggrieved parties will do to you in the event of an expensive "incident".

Tootle pip!!

TCDS = Type Certification Data Sheet.`

[dubbleyew eight]

the maintenance release may work in a commercial environment with multiple pilots using the aircraft.

but in a privately owned aircraft flown only by the owner....

I discontinued the use of maintenance releases after the lame faked the annuals that led to them being issued.

what use is a maintenance release after an "administrative annual"????

the reality is that the regulations have only ever seemed to work in Australia because they were never enforced.

I looked at the implications of doing a circuit.
pull out of the hangar and check the aircraft over, close the hangar doors and startup.
penalty for starting too close to a building.
penalty for not using a maintenance release.
taxy out to the grass runway and takeoff on the runway the aircraft has been flown from for 25 years.
penalty for violating the manual's requirement to use a runway one hundred feet longer.
complete the circuit and land on the grass runway.
penalty again for using a runway shorter than that specified in the manual.

there were about 6 other penalties I identified but I won't detail those.

CASA your safety regime is a crock of pony poo.
if your belligerence makes me into a criminal, beware, I'll be a really talented one.
I'm fed up with fckwit LAME's and their bull****.
I'm fed up with your bull****.
if you don't learn and don't stop all the criminal bollocks its your necks.

[Creampuff]

It is most certainly not any LAME's responsibility, any more than the a LAME is responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft -- that is the responsibility of the registered operator, who is also responsible for all required maintenance being carried out -- not the LAME who certifies return to service.False dichotomy. :=

When the registered operator pays a LAME to perform an inspection on an aircraft, and the LAME takes the money and certifies for the completion of the inspection, the LAME is under numerous contractual, common law and legislative duties in relation to the airworthiness of that aircraft.

I'd urge all LAMEs to be very careful in relying on what Leaddie suggested.

[djpil]

CAR 220
(2) An operator shall maintain a record of the fuel remaining in .....
"operator means an operator engaging in commercial operations."

Referring to the CASA ramp check document that Sunfish directed us to - it states "navigation/fuel log" however in the later references to rules it mentions navigation logs and fuel requirements.

Appropriate current charts and documents? Here is that word again..... appropriate What is appropriate?Worth checking the regulation here - in Reg 233 the word used is "applicable" as in "the latest editions of .... " list of everything "that are applicable". Seems pretty clear to me but I am pleased to see the word "appropriate" in the ramp check guide.

[compressor stall]

Print a copy of the regs as to what must be carried in the aircraft and keep that in the back of your licence folder.

Worked for me back in GA. I had one guy on Horn Island try to ramp me whilst unloading and supervising pax. Told him to look outside the aircraft and I'd deal with him when I'd finished those tasks. Then I got the required docs out, placed them on the seat and told him that all the documentation he required was on the seat.
He looked at that, then asked to look in my navbag. I declined his kind request. In the end all was fine, except for one Herc strap was missing a loading label...

[parabellum]

but a log? I guess I can, but what do they actually want?


Regular fuel checks are likely to be the first indication you get of abnormal consumption or a fuel leak. A fuel leak within the engine cowls probably won't be visible, unlike a hole in the wing! Most leaks are inside, coupling and fuel line failure etc.


On simple flights just pick the one quarter, one half and three quarter points or, if more convenient, waypoints, for a flight of one hour or less, just the half way point should do it. A Top of Descent check is quite a good idea too, confirmation that you have enough fuel to land or divert etc. Strong and unscheduled headwind and you may have to pick a closer diversion.


Logging fuel at start and landing gives you consumption and this may be useful to the engineers for engine performance monitoring.

[KRviator]

I don't think Sunfish was arguing the actual act of fuel quantity checks and cross-checks, rather the apparent requirement to keep a fuel log, when in fact the referenced CAR 234 requires no such thing, only that you "took reasonable steps" to ensure you had enough on board.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I keep a real-time continuous fuel log - its called Shadin Digital Fuel Flow. At any instant it tells me my fuel consumption and endurance, and if I push a button it tells me fuel used and fuel remaining. I cross check its accuracy every time I refuel - fuel used on the Shadin is generally +/- 2 L of what I pump into the aeroplane.

Why would I want to keep a written fuel log?

I also keep several real-time navigation logs - they are called GPS's! They tell me at any instance where I am (to within a meter or two), how to get to where I want to go and how long it will take me to get there, and ditto for anywhere else I might wish to go. They even keep a snail trail of where I have been - just in case I want to check that I have been where I think I have been!

If the endurance on the Shadin minus the time to my destination gives me my required margin, I am good to go!

I have my GPS set up to remind me to change tanks every 30 min (else the Bo wants to fly crooked!) so I take that opportunity to check my fuel as per above.

I generally fly with a detailed print-out of my flight plan and note my times at waypoints along the way - but only cause I am an old bugger and that's the way we used to do it - old habits die hard, but apparently not for CASA.

The two most significant advances in General Aviation in the 40 years that I have held a pilot's licence?

1) GPS

2) Digital fuel flow

Dr :8

[Tinstaafl]

and 3. Engine data monitor

[Fantome]

The two most significant advances in General Aviation in the 40 years that I have held a pilot's licence?

The advent of Recreational Aviation Australia, the design, manufacture and ready availability of a wide range of types in the RAA category, it could be argued are of over-arching significance in terms of innovation and breakthrough. The greater ease of qualifying for an RAA certificate has been a tremendous boon to those many who found the cost and the bother and often the frustrations of dealing with Avmed just not worth the candle.

But that's not something not already known to 99 % of pilots in the wide brown land.

[Capt Fathom]

It's a pity CASA don't use Ramp Checks to provide people with guidance/mentoring rather than making it a policing exercise!

Unless it's blatantly obvious the person concerned is making little effort to comply.

[LeadSled]

When the registered operator pays a LAME to perform an inspection on an aircraft, and the LAME takes the money and certifies for the completion of the inspection, the LAME is under numerous contractual, common law and legislative duties in relation to the airworthiness of that aircraft.

Creamie,
I actually agree with what you are saying about LAME liability, it is consistent with my comments about the person signing out the "return to service" docs., but the fact remains, many private owners who are also the registered operators do not understand that they, as the registered operator, have final responsibility for airworthiness.
Tootle pip !!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Fantome it could be argued there is little new in RAAus/LSA aircraft, barring the legislative machinery that allows them to operate outside the 1946 (?) Chicago convention rule set.

I reckon GPS and digital engine monitoring equipment is a far greater advance, that required far more ingenuity than the mere removal of brown tape.

[thunderbird five]

CASR 67.200 (4) Conditions applicable to certain medical certificates—correcting lenses
;)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

and 3. Engine data monitor Yes! I almost added that to my post also.

The advent of Recreational Aviation Australia, the design, manufacture and ready availability of a wide range of types in the RAA category, it could be argued are of over-arching significance in terms of innovation and breakthrough.

I actually regard that as a big step BACKWARDS! :E

Dr :8

[Aussie Bob]

It's a pity CASA don't use Ramp Checks to provide people with guidance/mentoring rather than making it a policing exercise!


Actually Fathom, in my limited experience of ramp checks (1 for me and 1 for a pilot working for me) the above has been true, no penalties, some guidance and a happy (partially) time for all.

[parabellum]

ForkTailedDrKiller - please restore my faith in "an old buggar" and tell me that despite all your wiz bang electronics you do still run, at the very least, a mental fuel plot and still carry a route map? Ever been hit by a lightening strike? They can come from nowhere, doesn't have to be a Qnimb.


I got hit coming out of KL on my way back to Singapore in a B747-400, lost just about everything electric, had the benefit of one radio and radar vectors, lucky us. Your aircraft sounds as though it might well be an attractive target for a rogue streak of lightening! (We carried world wide topo charts, by the way)


Ask yourself, the day all your wonderful gizmos fail, (a minor on board fault can do it), when you are on a lengthy trip, variable weather, can you pick up the plot immediately and safely continue, if not to destination, then at least a safe landing?


Everything I suggested in post #19 were just minor points but they might just save some one's arse one day. Your electrical gizmos are aids, nothing more. If you have triple everything then I would agree you have a great deal of redundancy but a minor electrical storm can change all that.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

ForkTailedDrKiller - please restore my faith in "an old buggar" and tell me that despite all your wiz bang electronics you do still run, at the very least, a mental fuel plot and still carry a route map?No, and no!

Mental fuel plot - why? I rarely depart with less than known fuel (generally full, occasionally tabs). With full fuel I know the aeroplane will fly for 5.25 hrs at my normal cruise settings before the engine stops. I never fly it for more than 4 hrs. If a lightening strike takes out all my electrics, I will still know my endurance.

I carry hard-copy WACs, Enroute charts and print-out DAPs of my departure point and destination and possible alternates.

I carry 2 x EFBs - one mini iFad with Ozrunways on the yoke and a Motion Computing tablet with Jeppessen FliteDeck in my flightbag.

Do I have enough redundancy?

1 x G430W in the panel
1 x mini iFad with Ozrunways on the yoke
1 x Garmin 496 on the yoke
1 x Motion Computing tablet with Jeppessen FliteDeck in the flightbag
1 x Garmin 296 in the flightbag
1 x iPhone with Ozrunways in the pocket

Ever been hit by a lightening strike? They can come from nowhere, doesn't have to be a Qnimb.Nope! Hope I never do, but if a strike takes out the aeroplane's electrics, the MC tablet and G296 should get me home on their battery power, ie not be affected by the strike cause they are switched off.

:E :E :E :E

[jas24zzk]

Captain Fathom wrote

It's a pity CASA don't use Ramp Checks to provide people with guidance/mentoring rather than making it a policing exercise!

Unless it's blatantly obvious the person concerned is making little effort to comply.

Been ramped twice...First was at Alice Springs, first time there, first big trip. After the initial hurdle of the fear of being ramped (i did have everything in place) I hit em up for some local knowledge. Was a good experience.

Second was at Avalon East.....nuff said...first exp at alice didn't help with complacency issuses...believing they would be of help

[tmpffisch]

Forky, without a fuel log/plan, if you're ramped how can CASA work out how much reserve fuel you've decided to carry, other than believing your word?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Forky, without a fuel log/plan, if you're ramped how can CASA work out how much reserve fuel you've decided to carry, other than believing your word? If they ask nicely I will show them my printed flightplan = detailed flightplan from Champagne 3000. :ok:

[Creampuff]

Insisting on and checking a paper fuel plan seems to me to be a pretty pointless regulatory exercise.

If they won't believe what I say, why would they believe what I write?

A properly set up I0520 can cruise happily at 42 litres an hour or 62 litres an hour, but not in the middle, with only a few knots or so difference in TAS. A properly set up and run I0520 will eat far more fuel in an ROP climb than an I0520 that's being beaten to death at 25/25. Same laws of physics and systems characteristics drive the same outcomes on many other piston engines.

How on earth would the neddie from CASA know whether the numbers in a paper or mental fuel plan bear any semblance to reality or, more importantly, are safe? If it's just that paper fuel on board is greater than paper fuel calculated as required plus reserve, it's a pretty pointless exercise.

[parabellum]

Nope! Hope I never do, but if a strike takes out the aeroplane's electrics, the MC tablet and G296 should get me home on their battery power, ie not be affected by the strike cause they are switched off.


No cigar there I'm afraid, the equipment doesn't have to be switched on for a lightening strike to affect it, due to the enormity and extent of the electrical upset. An outside chance, I admit, but sod's law usually prevails.


I will still know my endurance.
Doesn't hurt to have a good idea how much fuel you would expect to have remaining at any given point, worked out before hand, guards against being caught out by a fuel leak.

[Creampuff]

How do you know the rate at which you're leaking?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Bugger it Parabellum, that last lightning strike took out all my toys, burnt all my maps and paper logs to a crisp, fried my retinas so I am blinded and punched a big hole in my fuel tank!

I guess I am flucked! :{

[Sunfish]

Last trip away I had Six GPS on board - the aircrafts King system. ipad with Ozrunways, Dual bluetooth, iphone, a Garmin forerunner on my wrist and an old one at the bottom of my flight bag with new batteries.

...However I still carry WACS, draw the planned track in pencil, and keep my passenger busy by getting them to mark our position and time at appropriate landmarks.

Call me old fashioned, but I never, ever, miss an opportunity to fix my position and check the accuracy of GPS by any means available including NDB and VOR.

My reason for doing that is that I run a reasonably sophisiticated system on my yacht (nav computer/GPS/Gyro/fluxgate/Wind/Autopilot) and I have experienced system failures before.

Man, when these interlinked systems screw up, which is rare, fault isolation can take a very long time and recovery even longer because you can get very confused about what is happening very fast indeed - and that is on a yacht travelling at a mere Six knots. I have reverted to magnetic compass, Mark I eyeball and paper chart more than once in the last Ten years.

Also bear in mind that GPS can be erratic at times and is susceptible to jamming.

I suggest that immediate action in the air if something doesn't cross check or behaviour seems erratic and the cause is not immediately blindingly obvious, is to revert to magnetic compass, paper chart, pencil and hand flying.

The alternative to doing that, I have found from experience, is an incipient spiral dive as you faff about with your eyes inside, perhaps trying to get the autopilot to follow a GPS heading

[Jack Ranga]

Call me old fashioned, but I never, ever, miss an opportunity to fix my position and check the accuracy of GPS by any means available including NDB and VOR.

Keep doing that :ok:

[parabellum]

GPS and tablets etc are here to stay, like it or not, so we might as well use modern aids in a modern way and return the pencils and rulers back to the Tiger Moths.


Wrong!!!..............................

[Jabawocky]

I have watched this from the sidelines for a few days. I would like to think that some of my firm communication at a working level with CASA has influenced this. If not it is at least in harmony with what I have pushed at them for a number of years.

Problem used to be that if it were known CASA folk, and it could be any number of representatives not just FOI/AWI, were at an airfield or a air show/fly in, that it would have a negative effect on the event or if it encouraged someone to fly past a place to another airport that this might have a negative safety outcome. This has happened several times in the past and in one case an aircraft running out of fuel. Stupidity and anxiety overrides common sense.

For my part working with the GA Task force head and the Sport office folk, I have always encouraged the concept of actually promoting the ramp check as a friendly and educational exercise and not an opportunity to bust someone for an out of date ERC.

I believe that the current printed material is part of the process. It has been widely distributed through the various organisations such as but not limited to, AWAL, RAAus, SAAA, ASRA etc.

The key here is that the rules can say what they like....who really cares, but what we care about is safe operations, that we do not kill ourselves or others. That is what we really care about. By encouraging the private and recreational flyers to actively consider, planning, fuel, chart/info, performance and such things they are actually doing their job for a change. If RAAus pilot Smith just thinks these things through and makes a good value judgement every flight, then this is a massive step forward.

Taking the anxiety out of a Ramp Check, and encouraging folk to learn something is exactly what the brochure and the SASAO team are trying to do. I know for a fact how most or if not all of those guys conduct their checks at air shows and fly in's, mainly because I insisted they do it this way for the biggest event in the GA calendar. Sure they catch out folk who are turning up without maps, plans or any idea of fuel planning, no EPIRB, but none of them get any punishment, they get education. Even for some of the most unbelievable things. Some of which I would have taken action on.

The point is that if they are being proactive in educating rather than regulation for regulation sake, they will have a far greater effect on safer operations.

As for fuel logs and such....I subscribe to the ForkAir SOPs and as an engineer I have assesed the risks of a lighning strike that takes out all the backup gear and determined I would be so flucked that I would not even know I was flucked in the first place. If it gets your spare device turned off inside the nav bag.....you have bigger problems. :uhoh:

Creamie raises a good point about Neddie Plod not knowing what your fuel plan was really worth, but the fact you have some kind of fuel assessment demonstrated is what they would like to see. They trust you have done it right for your operation when you planned your flight. They just want to know you have been doing something about it. The focus is not an act of regulatory enforcement, it is about smart aviating. I guarantee Forkie and Creamie know within a couple of litres what they will arrive with, and how they know that matters not. Just so long as they do. Neddie Plod can't argue with that.

DISCLAIMER: I am not going soft, I am as ever harshly critical of CASA and the whole system in Australia, but I must also be fair and give credit where credit is due. And this is one area I have been highly critical of CASA over the years, even publicly on PPRuNe, so it is worthy of praise when they do something useful for a change. Even if you pick the text to bits on technicality.

How the FOI's conduct themselves in the commercial operations arena...I have no idea and no influence, but I believe the GA Task Force Manager holds a strong view on this as well and if experience is radically different in future write to him with details. He is pretty sharp, if your story adds up he will act.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Wow - I'm almost looking forwards to being ramped..... Well done Jabba for you work.

UTR

[dubbleyew eight]

jabawocky how do you equate your comments with McCormic and his "we are a big R regulator and we are going to enforce a higher level of safety."
then you have all the strict liability bull****.

all I see from CASA is incompetence.

I see pilots who are quite competent reduced by CASA fear into uncertainty, doubt and a cessation of activity.

One of the greatest risks to aviation safety in this country is actually CASA.

I wish I lived in your wonderful fuzzy world but sadly I live in mine.
41 years involved in aviation and not a prang. I must be incompetent.

[Jabawocky]

W8

I cant disagree. You are correct.

In fact what you describe is what I have been fighting. A little at a time it has made a difference.

Like I said in the commercial sector and maybe in some parts of the country the ethos is different.

Like I stated, if you see, experience or otherwise are affected by BS, and you have ALL your facts straight, ducks in a row, write to the GA Task Force manager, he is a no nonsense practical guy. But you must have your ducks in a row or you are just another shoot from the hip complainer.

Despite UTR's compliment do not assume I have fixed it all......far from it. We as part of the community need to demand better of CASA. Look at the recent AMROBA dung fights, especially in Brisbane. Look at the current review panel.

All it takes for the forces of evil to rule the world is for enough good men to do nothing.

Or as I sat in a chapel service at ADFA in Canberra last Friday, listening to an ex ADF Bishop/minister, he talked about a topic.......What is it you are prepared to die for?

Now this is a bit extreme but at the end of the day, stand up, be accountable and command equal respect from the others.

Often it will come.

[LeadSled]

How on earth would the neddie from CASA know whether the numbers in a paper or mental fuel plan bear any semblance to reality or, more importantly, are safe? If it's just that paper fuel on board is greater than paper fuel calculated as required plus reserve, it's a pretty pointless exercise. Creamie,
Don't worry, when Part 91 comes in (and now for GA AOC holder) CASA will simply audit the the hapless "rampee's" fuel figures against CASA "normal fuel flows" --- whatever the hell "normal fuel flows" are. Mandatory reserves are also to be calculated at "normal fuel flow rates" --- fixed single rates of flow, in the case of an AOC operator, to be published in the FCOM.
Would you believe, a leading exponent of the concept of single rate "normal fuel flow" from the CASA Sydney office recently said, in front of a room that contained about 300,000 hours of professional experience (it was a CASA "professional development day" mandatory for CPs, CFIs and ATOs): "But, if you don't have normal fuel flows, how are you going to prepare a flight plan".
For anybody who digested the whole of the paperwork from the Norfolk Pel Air inquiry, that level of CASA knowledge was well in evidence.
Tootle pip!!

[dubbleyew eight]

as irritating as the BS is we all get a little browned off when there is no humour.
this is a factual CASA story and I think it as funny as hell.

I got fed up with the dribble in our club email system so when I last changed service providers I "forgot" to tell them.
the peace has been wonderful.
CASA held a safety presentation in the club and of course with my desire for email peace I didn't hear about it and so didn't attend.
Anyway after the presentation there was a CASA cap sitting on one of the back tables. It sat there for months totally untouched.
One day I was having a coffee and sat looking at it, the germ of an idea arrived.
That cap could give me a lot of peace and quiet while I was out flying, so I nicked it.
I went for a long fly one day and wore the cap to keep the sun off. I went down the coast a few hundred miles, crossed in around the winery area and tracked inland heading gradually back home.
Passing a country airfield I decided to land and fill up the aeroplane at the automated BP avgas bowser. So I landed and taxied in to the bowser.
The airfield was an absolute hive of activity. I'd never seen it so busy.
I waved to a couple of guys walking past and said hello, then turned back to the bowser. I hooked the static line on the exhaust, did the carnet thing and put, eventually, some 80 litres in the tank.
I put the hoses away and walked over to the toilets for a pee.
As I walked over I noticed that the nearby hangars were closed.
On the walk back from the toilet I noticed that all the hangars were now closed.
Then it dawned on me that there weren't any cars around.
So, sporting my CASA cap I went for a walk around the hangars.
There was not a soul on the entire airfield. absolutely no one.

In the time it had taken me to pump 80 litres of avgas the busiest of airfields and become a deserted wasteland.

I find that as funny as hell.

My next long flight will be over to Adelaide to help my brother with his homebuilt. On past history I reckon that I will shutdown all aviation activity in the southern half of Australia when I make the trip.
Funny as hell.

[dubbleyew eight]

casa do things that really get your goat.

when I was an alphabet office bearer I became aware of a CASA staffer in Sydney who flew either a longeze or a varyeze and had applied for and had CASA issue him with a LAME's ticket restricted to just his aircraft.
effectively it gave him the ability to maintain his own aircraft.

without making reference to his case so as not to ruin it for him I made application for a similar ticket restricted to just my aircraft.
I'm sure I received no reply so after a year I beat on CASA's heads.
No was the reply. we can't see any reason to entertain the request.

(um , let me see, I own the aircraft, I've been working on it for years now, I have a demonstrated safe history, I've applied for it. reason enough? )

so if you work for CASA you can have anything you want because you're good mates. if anyone else wants it bugger off.
Wonderful People CASA. You just have to love their consistency.

[Sunfish]

The stories of CASA actions here and their ability to saddle me with a criminal conviction on a whim or terminate my licence for no particular reason, aided and abetted by the most confusing, convoluted and deliberately obtuse set of contradictory regulations and legislation means that I will forever keep as far away from CASA and its minions as is physically possible.

I will never engage with CASA any more than I would with the proverbial East German border guard, ever. They have nothing to contribute to either the safety or enjoyment of flying that cannot already be found in standard and more easily read texts. They are to be endured as far as I can tell. I always have complied with regulation to the best of my ability and intend to keep doing so, but CASA has conclusively demonstrated time and again that this is a hopeless way of avoiding prosecution or harassment, strict liability and all that.

To put that another way, the LAST person I would ever seek aviation advice from is CASA.

So far they have influenced my actions as follows:

1. An aircraft kit build in the United States is now often the subject of a build blog full of happy images of the builder and his creation. I haven't done one because CASA might view it. Likewise there will be no Go Pro cameras fitted let alone videos ever posted. I will also discourage any passenger from filming. CASA has killed that idea stone dead following their treatment of John Quadrio. You will also never know if and when the project is finished because I won't post on Pprune about it for the same reason, not that anyone would care..

2. I will never fit a full ADS-B installation to what I am building because I don't trust CASA or AsA not to use that system as an automatic infringement generator.

3. I plan on only flying the aircraft from private and remote property if at all possible and that influenced my aircraft selection. I do not enjoy the scrutiny of capricious and nit picking CASA officials. It will never appear at any airshow. I will never visit any airshow or event by air since CASA uses these as opportunities to inspect and harass pilots.

4. Despite Two years labour and a complete airframe, I acknowledge that I may still walk away from my project after turning it into scrap metal so that someone else can't finish it, to ensure that no liability can accrue to me. I will do this if the administrative burden of registering it and complying with CASA regulation becomes too great. Fingers crossed so far.


5. I will turn the aircraft into scrap metal and burn my licence and log book if I ever come to the attention of CASA because at my age I don't need the hassle others have undergone, as is documented in case after case by the AAT. The kit cost about $20,000 and it (and Two years labour) can go in the bin. The engine and avionics I can sell or give away.


P.S. There were at least Three CASA officials in their flouro waistcoats at Point Cook on the weekend. They were in the crowd, obviously taking a break from making someones life hell.

[Global Aviator]

I've had ramp checks in China, Japan, Singapore.

Audit flights and sims included.

All a pleasure.

CASA mmmmmm best be making no comment!

[Captain Dart]

The CASA inspectors at PCK were told by the military that they had no business being in the restricted area.

However, courtesy of their good mate, The Australian Tax Payer, they would still have been paid to enjoy a safe and impressive air show.

[Creampuff]

Don't worry, when Part 91 comes in (and now for GA AOC holder) CASA will simply audit the the hapless "rampee's" fuel figures against CASA "normal fuel flows" --- whatever the hell "normal fuel flows" are. Mandatory reserves are also to be calculated at "normal fuel flow rates" --- fixed single rates of flow, in the case of an AOC operator, to be published in the FCOM.

Would you believe, a leading exponent of the concept of single rate "normal fuel flow" from the CASA Sydney office recently said, in front of a room that contained about 300,000 hours of professional experience (it was a CASA "professional development day" mandatory for CPs, CFIs and ATOs): "But, if you don't have normal fuel flows, how are you going to prepare a flight plan".

For anybody who digested the whole of the paperwork from the Norfolk Pel Air inquiry, that level of CASA knowledge was well in evidence.I’m going to have to do another print run of those “IDIOT” signs. If you could PM me the name of the “exponent ... from the CASA Sydney office", Leaddie, I’ll organise a sign for him. :ok:

[VH-XXX]

2. I will never fit a full ADS-B installation to what I am building because I don't trust CASA or AsA not to use that system as an automatic infringement generator.

You don't really have a choice... Every aircraft including RAA after Feb 14 must have it and by 2020 we all will. "Never" is a long time.

Captain Dart The CASA inspectors at PCK were told by the military that they had no business being in the restricted area.


I would have love to have seen the look on Poole's face when they told him that :ok:

[Jabawocky]

Sunfish.......despite my attempt at some positive news, and it still is, from your perspective I do not blame you :ok:

The truth is there are still a lot of people out there that can and do learn or need to learn stuff. Most of whom run and hide the minute there is a learning opportunity.



Leadie..... Single rate fuel flows :D Ya kidding me ....no you are not I gather :{

The difference in my bug smasher from 4000' to 17000' is something like (guessametric) 30% less, so I wonder how said idiot would cope with the question......How does a single rate flow work for me while still maintaining a similar BSFC but a 30% less flow rate?

How would that work in a jet? :rolleyes:

You must be kidding us surely? :)

[LeadSled]

How would that work in a jet?

Jaba,
Exactly, how would that work on any aircraft ---- refer Part 91.
It is a jet in two separate AOCs where there has been much argument about what is prescribed in an FCOM.
Sad, but true.
Tootle pip!!

[Creampuff]

In the interests of accuracy, Leaddie, are you able to quote the provision to which you refer? :confused:

[LeadSled]

Creamie,
For Part 91, see the requirements for 30 minutes fixed final reserve.

We haven't got all the Part 91 Manuals of Standards yet, (let alone Part 135, in all its glory), I am advised that "normal fuel flow" features in the planning sections.

The AOCM "policy" ,http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/215_1.pdf has been applied increasingly over the last two or so years, since the "multidisciplinary audit teams" (or whatever they are called --- the "Flying Squad", perhaps) and a number of operators have been required to put "normal fuel flows" for each type in the FCOM ---- based on the current policy and the "requirements" of the AOCM ( there is a revised one out, I haven't given it the fine tooth comb treatment yet ---- in fact I am avoiding it, it might make me all bitter and twisted.) but as you probably know, the AOCM CAAP is treated as if it was a regulation.

Tootle pip!!

[Creampuff]

Had a quick search for the word ‘fuel’ in the draft Part 91 – didn’t find anything about normal fuel flows.

I did notice that you rack up $17,000 in fines if you don’t connect the fuel nozzle earth lead to the aircraft before removing the fuel cap and don’t leave it connected until after the cap is replaced. Must have been a spate of refueling fires … :*

[jas24zzk]

better check further whilst you are at it creamie.....do we need the earth strap connected when checking the contents also now?


:ugh:

[Creampuff]

You’re over-thinking this, jas.

When you do your walkaround and remove and replace the caps to do a visual check/dip, you should be moving counter-clockwise in the Southern hemisphere. (Penalty: 50 Penalty Units.) So there should be no static build up during your walkaround.

But when you’re refueling, you’re moving in straight lines. That creates static.

Hope this helps. :ok:

[Howard Hughes]

I don't refuel, I leave that to the experts! :ok:

[Xray Tango]

I've been " Ramp Checked " " Drug & Booze Tested " a few times at what I would describe as smaller strips. Never been a problem ever, never asked for anything I wouldn't have covered before departing, not been interested in anything except safety. Never asked for fuel cals or w&b stuff. Been done approx 6 times now. No issue.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Been done approx 6 times now.

Getting ramped is one thing, but getting "done" (?) - Wooooooow! Now that is a whole other issue! :E

Dr :8

[gerry111]

Creamie and Leadie, So what happens when I land at Thargomindah and the self serve avgas fuel nozzle doesn't have an earth lead? Can I legally refuel? Or should I be carrying a short length of hook up wire with an alligator clip on each end? :p

[A Squared]

I've been " Ramp Checked " " Drug & Booze Tested " a few times at what I would describe as smaller strips.

Am I infering correctly from this that GA pilots in Australia may be subject to ad-hoc drug and alcohol testing (as opposed to testing for probable cause) or am misunderstanding/reading too mush into it?

[LeadSled]

Must have been a spate of refueling fires … :*Creamie,
And doesn't recognise the fact that virtually all aircraft tyres are self grounding.
Re. part 91, I can't give your rule number, try searching "fixed final reserve".
Tootle pip!!

PS: In the interests of belt and braces, I still like to hook up the grounding lead from the fueling equipment, and my standard kit has a lead and a bulldog clip attached to my big screwdriver.

[mcgrath50]

Am I infering correctly from this that GA pilots in Australia may be subject to ad-hoc drug and alcohol testing (as opposed to testing for probable cause) or am misunderstanding/reading too mush into it?

Yup. Just like driving a car.

[A Squared]

Yup. Just like driving a car.

really ?!

So, you taxi in from a private flight in your personal 172 and a CASA inspector can demand that you submit to a drug and/or alcohol test without any specific reason for beleiving you're under the influence? Just to do a check?

[Jack Ranga]

Yes, and why not?

[A Squared]

Yes, and why not?


It's just very different than the US. So I was making sure I didn't misunderstand what goes on.

[Fantome]

in my kit are bulldog clips, alligator clips , utilux clips , bicycle clips
but the old air safety digest clips are all at home in a file

when dymo came out old LAME mate dymoed EARTH on part of his nose strut. Up above on the nose he put MOON

i got hold of the thing, printed out DAG and put that on his coffee mug

funniest bit of dymoing I ever saw was on on the locker in the change room, smoko room , of the old FSU at Coffs. Stan Simmons was on the staff there. A more laid back FSO than red headed Slack Stan you never met. Items of equipment and a lot of other gear besides round the place had the time worn inscription ESSENTIAL USE ONLY

what Stan labelled on his locker was -

SENSUAL USE ONLY

Another FSO there was JR .. another one off. He'd tell you were 2 by 2 and when you went to ask him to his face WTF? he'd come back with a
laconic too loud and too often

[Creampuff]

A Squared.

Australians are subjects of the government. Australians are culturally programmed to meekly acquiesce as every aspect of their lives is micro-regulated.

Aviation D+A testing laws have been a perfect experiment that has proved the level of micro-regulation is unnecessary. Untold millions in establishing and administering the testing regime, and the number of people caught being countable on the fingers of one hand.

Then a court found there was a fundamental flaw in the rules, making prosecutions impossible.

Has drug and alcohol-addled mayhem broken out in aviation? Of course not: Everyone continues to do exactly what they did before the rules were made.

The very sad thing is that instead of learning from the experiment, the regulator will now spend time and money to ‘fix’ the rules and the industry will meekly acquiesce with the re-imposition rather than repeal of the rules. :(

[Tinstaafl]

What was the D&A rule flaw?

[Creampuff]

Let me google that for you:

Post #351 here: http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/527815-truss-aviation-safety-regulation-review-18.html

and:

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Project SS 14/03 (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:PWA::pc=PC_101889)

[thorn bird]

Creamie
I have been told the cost of D+A works out to
around $6 million for each person caught. About as efficient
use of tax payers money as the reg reform program???????
Now lets see??.... divide a quarter Billion dollars by how many regs
should equal the cost per reg??...now if we could just get the
buggers to stop churning them out for a sec....

[thorn bird]

How to handle a Ramp check.

A CASA FOI was on a “Field” trip in the NT.

Unfortunately the fish were not biting so he decided to go duck hunting instead. Using carefully honed hunting techniques learnt from lurking around GA airports looking for miscreants, he finally managed to get a shot away and dropped a bird, but it fell over the other side of a fence. Looking around he saw a bit of dirt strip with a tin shed up one end with a couple of Cessna’s and a chopper or two parked outside. Must be an Ag strip he thought.
As the FOI climbed over the fence, a grizzled old bloke on an antiquated tug
drove up and asked him what he was doing. The FOI responded, "I shot a duck and it fell in this field, and now I'm going to retrieve it."
The old fella replied, "Mate this is my private property, and the law says without my permission you are not coming over here so I guess its duck for my dinner tonight."
The indignant FOI said, "I am from CASA “the law” does not apply to us in Australia, if you don't let me get that duck, I'll return with an audit team. You will be branded a not “Fit and Proper person” and your licence revoked, all your aircraft will be grounded and by the time CASA legal have finished with you in court you will have lost everything you own."
The old Bloke smiled and said, "Apparently, you don't know how we settle disputes in the Territory . We settle small disagreements like this with the 'Three Kick Rule.'
The FOI asked, "What is the 'Three Kick Rule'?"
The old Bloke replied, "Well, because the dispute occurs on my land, I get to go first. I kick you three times and then you kick me three times and so on back and forth until someone gives up."
The FOI quickly thought about the proposed contest and decided that he could easily take the old codger. He agreed to abide by the local custom.
The old Bloke slowly climbed down from the Tug and walked up to the FOI.
His first kick planted the toe of his heavy steel-toed work boot into the FOI’s groin and dropped him to his knees!
His second kick to the midriff sent the FOI’s last meal gushing from his mouth. The FOI was on all fours when the old fella’s third kick to his rear end, sent him face-first into a fresh cow pat.
Summoning every bit of his will and remaining strength the FOI very slowly managed to get to his feet. Wiping his face with the arm of his jacket, he said, "Okay, you old fart. Now it's my turn."

(I love this part)
The old fella smiled and said, "Nah, I give up. You can have the duck."

[Tinstaafl]

Ta Creamy. I tried searching for a court case.

[Creampuff]

No worries - as you will have seen from the links, the prosecutions didn't get to court. The CDPP raised concerns about the paradox created by the legislation.

Edit: My apologies. My earlier post was incorrect when I said "a court found". It was the CDPP that raised the concerns.

[Jack Ranga]

It's just very different than the US. So I was making sure I didn't misunderstand what goes on.

Mate, you clearly have not been educated on how good Australia is at aviation. We are the best, just ask us :ok: Along with that, we have the best red-tape in the developed world, we have a rule for everything, ask me a question on something and I will find 20 or so rules that you must follow to answer that question. We have eliminated personal responsibility, this is awesome when you have a nation of dumb arses (government induced).

We also have the most awesome user pays system in the western world, nothing is left to chance here :ok:

[dubbleyew eight]

there is a bit you are missing there Jack.

<sarcasm on> ...all of message... <sarcasm off>

[Jack Ranga]

Aviation D+A testing laws have been a perfect experiment that has proved the level of micro-regulation is unnecessary. Untold millions in establishing and administering the testing regime, and the number of people caught being countable on the fingers of one hand.

But don't worry, this testing only occurs between the hours of 9-5, Monday to Friday. Penalty rates are too high to provide 24-7 coverage. It also usually occurs at major airports where testing numbers can easily be achieved. It's be a tad stupid to drive 1 or 2 hours to an aerodrome in the sitcks to find no-one there. (Our GA accident stats will be the best in the world in a few years as we've just about wiped out GA :ok:)

[Jack Ranga]

Sarcasm? Dunno what you're on about dubya? :cool:

[LeadSled]

.now if we could just get the buggers to stop churning them out for a sec...Folks,
Have you noticed Clive Palmer has justified not bothering to turn up to Parliament, because the Abbott Government is not presenting enough legislation each day.
Great news, and a change from the last Labor Government, that prided itself on overachieving record levels of new legislation.
The first of the promised "repeal" days is coming up, but I guess the Labor and the Watermelons in the Senate will ritually block any repeal bills.

It's just very different than the US. So I was making sure I didn't misunderstand what goes on. At lest we don't have the stormtroopers (very heavily armed) of the ATF and Homeland Security descending on us at random all over the US, even if we have been nowhere near an international border, let alone crossed one, our Airstapo is not usually armed, unless they turn up with the Constable Plod from the Commonwealth pollis ( are they a "Force" or a "Service" now ??)

Tootle pip!!

[Tidbinbilla]

But don't worry, this testing only occurs between the hours of 9-5, Monday to Friday. Penalty rates are too high to provide 24-7 coverage.

Not quite correct. 2 out of 3 times I've been DAMP tested have been out of normal business hours.

[Jack Ranga]

Dammit :ugh: you do my CAsA bashing no justice :cool:

[thorn bird]

"At lest we don't have the stormtroopers (very heavily armed) of the ATF and Homeland Security descending on us at random all over the US"

Dunno about that leadie,
Got off a Sydney Perth flight one morning and wondered what the hold up was disembarking.
When I finally got to the air bridge, all I could hear was the screams of children and passengers single file against one side of the air bridge while a bunch of shaven headed, no neck, paramilitary thugs, armed to the teeth strutted up and down the line with slobbering dogs at eye level with the kids, who were terrified.
Old fella in front of me muttered "Did we miss Perth and end up in North Korea?"

[A Squared]

At lest we don't have the stormtroopers (very heavily armed) of the ATF and Homeland Security descending on us at random all over the US, even if we have been nowhere near an international border, let alone crossed one,

No question the US has some civil liberty .... ummm ... incursions of our own going on. I was only referring to the specific issue of drug and alcohol testing.

For what it's worth, the FAA here doesn't require random drug and alcohol testing of private pilots. And would likely (hopefully) be prevented from such by the fifth amendment protections against unreasonable search. Even when the police are running "safety inspection" roadblocks on the highway, I don't believe that they are able to demand an alcohol test without some element of reasonable suspicion, or probable cause.

That said, of course we've obviously come up withe some sort of rationalization which stands up in the courts to circumvent the fifth amendment in the case of pilots employed by common carriers.

[Jack Ranga]

Squared, you can be random breath tested on the roads here, anywhere, anytime. No probable cause or suspicion required. Random licence and registration checks, they don't have to have a reason to pull you over. Anyone involved in aviation can be random breath & drug checked, check in counter, baggage handler, mechanic. I've been drug & alcohol tested 3 times in the last 9 months (between the hours of 9-5, believe it not!).

[blackburn]

Been D & A tested twice well before "normal" business hours and at least three hours drive away from the major city. Guess they knew our schedule!
Other than those tests, only been ramp checked twice in 32 years.

[Xray Tango]

Running up approx 200 hrs early on per yr found about 4 ramp checks over say 4 years. Had the basics as required on board, ie license, medical, mr, poh, some maps to cover our intended route, plenty of gas.
Never had an issue with any of the inspectors, very fair and not looking to ping us for trivial issues.
Had one drug and alcohol tester run out from behind the toilets at another lic airport ( vic ) and test the pic, nice guy no drama again.
Even at the air show last year we felt they were more than fair. Just doing a job.