RAF Fast-Jet Combat Squadrons - 80% Reduction Since Gulf War I

[ATFQ]

ZZZZZZZZZZ

[Hangarshuffle]

Apparently, according to top crabs.

[RAFEngO74to09]

From memory - and including corrections from others - RAF front line fast jet squadrons in 1991, excluding OCUs which had a reserve squadron role, were:

Tornado GR1: 2, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 27, 31, 617 - total 11
Tornado F3: 5, 11, 23, 25, 29, 43, 111 - total 7
Jaguar: 6, 41, 54 - total 3
Harrier: 1, 3, 4 - total 3
Phantom FGR2: 19, 56, 74, 92 - total 4
Buccaneer: 12, 208 - total 2

Total: 30

In addition to the above, there were the following OCUs:

Tornado GR1 TWCU: 45(R)
Tornado F3: 229 OCU / 65(R)
Jaguar: 226 OCU
Harrier: 233 OCU
Buccaneer: 237 OCU

and 1435 Flt in the Falklands with 4 x Phantom FGR2

plus some pretty fast Canberra as well !

[Just This Once...]

The Tornado GR1 fleet was a bit bigger than 7 squadrons:

2, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 27, 31, 617 plus 45R and a bit of TTTE come to mind.

Canberra too of course….

[Lima Juliet]

1991? Shurely shome mishtake!

The F3s replaced the F4s in the Falklands in 1992. :cool:

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

74(F) Sqn and 56(F) Sqn were still going in 1991 as well with the F4!

[Lima Juliet]

In 1991, the F3 OCU was 229 OCU with a shadow number plate of 65 Sqn.

[Lima Juliet]

Ok, let's re-do EngO's post for 1991:

Tornado GR1: 2, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 27, 31, 617 - total 11
Tornado F3: 5, 11, 23, 25, 29, 43, 111 - total 7
Jaguar: 6, 41, 54 - total 3
Harrier: 1, 3, 4 - total 3
Phantom: 19, 56, 74, 92 - total 4
Buccaneer: 12, 208 - total 2

Total 30 Front Line Combat Ready Fast Jet Sqns :{

In addition to the above, there were the following OCUs:

Tornado GR1 TWCU: 45(R)
Tornado GR1 TTTE
Tornado F3: 229 OCU (65 Sqn)
Phantom: 228 OCU (64 Sqn)
Jaguar: 226 OCU
Harrier: 233 OCU
Buccaneer: 237 OCU

Total OCUs 7 Front Line Limited Combat Ready Fast Jet Sqns

and 1435 Flt in the Falklands with 4 x Phantom FGR2 - let's call it 1/2 a Sqn

So in 1991, the UK could raise 37.5 Fast Jet Sqns

How many today in 2014?

4x Typhoon
3x Tornado GR4

1x Typhoon OCU
1x Tornado GR4 OCU

1435 Flt in the Falklands

9.5 Sqns in total in 2014 versus 37.5 Sqns in 1991 - that's ~25% left!!! :eek:

So in answer to the OP's question - it's reduced by 75%. However, on 1 Apr 14 we lose 12 Sqn and that will be pretty close to 80% :{

LJ

[Just This Once...]

Plus the RN had a few SHARs too.

[RAFEngO74to09]

How did it come to this ! :{:{:{

Yes - I know the sensors / pods / weapons are much more capable now but still !

[Kitbag]

Available RAF assets 1989:

ROYAL AIR FORCE - GERMANY

Information from official squadron histories, with additional info from squadron histories on RAFWeb.org

1. Bruggen, FRG:
a. No. 9 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1 (became Tornado in 1983)
b. No. 14 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1 (became Tornado in 1985)
c. No. 17 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1 (became Tornado in 1985)
d. No. 31 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1(became Tornado in 1984)

2. Gutersloh, FRG:
a. No. 3 Squadron: 16 Harrier GR Mk3 (GR Mk5 in March 1989)
b. No. 4 Squadron: 16 Harrier GR Mk3 (GR Mk7 in Sept 1990)
c. No. 18 Squadron: 18 Chinooks (see note)
d. No. 230 Squadron: 16 Puma

3. Laarbruch, FRG:
a. No. 2 Squadron: 12 Jaguars (Recon) (former 1/89, may have been Tornado GR Mk 1A recon)
b. No. 15 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1 (became Tornado in 1983)
c. No. 16 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1 (became Tornado in 1984)
d. No. 20 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1 (became Tornado in 1984)

4. Wildenrath, FRG:
a. No. 19 Squadron: 12 Phantom FGR Mk 2
b. No. 92 Squadron: 12 Phantom FGR Mk 2
c. No. 20 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1
d. No. 60 Squadron: Andovers

5. Berlin, FRG
a. Flight of Chipmunk T.10

ROYAL AIR FORCE - UNITED KINGDOM

1. Binbrook, Lincs, UK:
a. No. 5 Squadron: 12 Tornado F3 (Lightning until 1987) (may have been at Coningsby)
b. No. 11 Squadron: 15 Tornado F3 (Lightning until May 1988, re-formed with F3 in August 1988)

2. Leuchars, Fife, UK:
a. No. 43 Squadron: 12? Phantom FGR Mk 2 (became F3 in 1990)
b. No. 111 Squadron: 12 ? Phantom FGR Mk 2 (became F3 in early 1990s)
c. No. 228 Squadron: OCU for Phantom units

3. Lossiemouth, Morayshire, UK:
a. No. 12 Squadron: 16 Buccaneer Mk 2b
b. No. 208 Squadron: 16 Buccaneer Mk 2b
c. No. 237 Squadron: 16 Buccaneer Mk 2b (OCU for Buccaneer units)
d. No. 226 Squadron: 16 Jaguar GR Mk 1 (OCU for Jaguar units)
e. No. 8 Squadron: 6 Shackleton AEW Mk 2 (became Sentry in 1991)

4. Marham, Norfolk, UK:
a. No. 27 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1
b. No. 617 Squadron: 12 Tornado GR Mk 1

5. Wattisham, Suffolk, UK:
a. No. 56 Squadron: 12 Phantom FGR Mk 2 (15)
b. No. 74 Squadron: 12 Phantom F-4J(UK) (15)
c. No. 23 Squadron 12-15 Tornado F3 (formed 1988) (may have been at Leeming)

6. Wittering, Cambs, UK:
a. No. 1 Squadron: 16 Harrier GR Mk 3 (began converting to GR Mk 5 in June 1987)
b. No. 233 Squadron: Harrier OCU (began converting to GR Mk 5 in 1989)

7. Coltishall, UK:
a. No. 6 Squadron: 16 Jaguar GR Mk 1
b. No. 54 Squadron: 16 Jaguar GR Mk 1
c. No. 41 squadron: 16 Jaguar GR Mk 1 (Recon)

8. Leeming, UK
a. No. 25 Squadron 12-15 Tornado F3 (formed Aug. 1 1989)

9. Honington
a. No. 13 Squadron: 16 Tornado GR Mk 1a (formed Jan. 1 1990)
b. No. 45 Squadron: Tornado Weapons Conversion Unit

10. Conigsby, UK
a. No. 29 Squadron 15 Tornado F3 (became Tornado in 1987)

11. Cottesmore, UK
a. NATO Tri-National Training Unit:
1. 20 Tornado GR Mk 1 (UK)
2. 10 Tornado IDS (Italy)
3. 22 Tornado IDS (FRG)

12. Brawdy, UK
a. No. 1 Tactical Weapons Unit: Hawk T.1A with secondary air defense role

13. Chivenor, UK
b. No. 2 Tactical Weapons Unit: Hawk T.1A with secondary air defense role

12. Falkland Islands
a. No. 1435 Flight: 4 F-4 Phantom FGR.Mk2
b. No. 1312 Flight: 1 VC-10, 1 Hercules C-130K
c. No. 78 Squadron: Sea King and Chinook HC1

13. Belize
a. No. 1417 Flight: Harrier
b. No. 1563 Flight: Puma


Non-Combat Squadrons

1. Brize Norton, UK:
a. No. 101 Squadron: 13 VC10 C.1 (Long range transport)
b. No. 216 Squadron: Tristar KC1 (aircraft undergoing conversion to tanker role)

2. Kinloss, UK
a. No. 201 Squadron: Nimrod
b. No. 206 Squadron: Nimrod
c. No. 120 Squadron: Nimrod (may have been at St. Mawgan)
d. No. 235 Squadron: Nimrod OCU (may have been at St. Mawgan)
e. No. 42 Squadron: Nimrod (may have been at St. Mawgan)

3. Waddington, UK (Wyton?)
a. No. 51 Squadron: 3 Elint Nimrod R1
b. No. 1 Photo Recon Squadron: 5 Canberra PR9
c. No. 360 Squadron: Canberra T.17 in ECM training role
e. No. 100 Squadron: Canberra in target training role
f. No. 231 Squadron: Canberra OCU

4. Boulmer, UK
a. No. 22 Squadron: HQ at RAF Finningley, A Flight at Chivenor, B Flight at Leuchars, C Flight at RAF Valley, E Flight at Coltishall (D flight disbanded Nov 88): 2 Wessex HAR.2 per flight
b. No. 202 Sqadron: HQ at RAF Finningley, A Flight at Boulmer, B Flight at Brawdy, C Flight at Manston, D Flight at Lossiemouth, E Flight at Leconfield: 2 Sea King HAR.3 per flight

5. Odiham, UK
a. No. 7 Squadron: Chinooks (provided medium-lift support for Army)
b. No. 33 Squdron: Puma
c. No. 240 Squadron: Chinook, Puma OCU

6. Lyneham, UK
a. No. 24 Squadron: 12 Hercules C.1/C.3
b. No. 30 Squadron: 12 Hercules C.1/C.3
c. No. 47 Squadron: 12 Hercules C.1/C.3
d. No. 70 Squadron: 12 Hercules C.1/C.3
e. No. 242 Squadron: 12 Hercules C.1/C.3 (OCU for Hercules Sqadrons)

Note: 6 C.1 were configured as C.1K tanks, 30 total were stretched C.3s (equivalent to C-130H-30)

7. Northolt, UK
a. No. 32 Squadron: Metropolitan Communications Squadron with 12 HS.125, Andover CC.2, Gazelle

8. Aldregrove, UK
a. No. 72 Squadron: Wessex HC2

9. Marham, UK
a. No. 55 Squdron: Victor Tankers

10. Benson, UK
a. No. 115 Squadron: Andover E.3/E.3A, some C.1s

9. Akrotiri, Cyprus
a. No. 84 Squadron: Wessex HC2, some former RN Wessex HU Mk5

10. Sek Kong, Hong Kong
a. No. 28 Squadron: Wessex HC2


Note 1: The RAF, like the US but unlike most other air forces, appears to have held significant reserves of front-line aircraft. IISS Military Balance 89-90 lists the following aircraft in reserve: 51 Tornado GR1, 59 Tornado F2/F3, 55 Phantom, 55 Jaguar. Other data in this section comes from Flight International’s World Air Forces 1989. Where it conflicts, it is marked with an *.

Note 2: UK Aircraft Holdings (from Jane’s, as of late 1989-early 1990)
F-4: 14 F-4J, 35 FG1, 76 FGR2
Tornados: 122 F3, 176 GR1
Jaguars: 114 GR1, 24 T2
Harriers: 64 GR3, 37 GR5, 16 T2 4A
Buccaneer: 65+* S.2
Tankers: 12 (14*) Victor K2, 4 VC10 K2, 4 (5*) VC10 K3, 6 Hercules C1K, 9 Lockheed TriStar
Trainers: 74 Hawk T1, 87 Hawk T1A, 120 Jet Provost T5/T5A, 11 Jetstream T1, 119 Bulldog T1, 11 Chipmunk T10, 20 Domino T1
Transports: 13 VC10 C.1, 25 Hercules C.1/C.1P, 30 Hercules C.3
Others: 9 Canberra PR9 (recon), 36 Nimrod (patrol), 5 Shackleton (AEW), 3 Nimrod R1P (EW), 6 Canberra T17 (EW), 6 Canberra T17A (EW)
Helicopters: 41 Puma HC1, 32 (36*) Chinook HC1, 29 (30*) Gazelle SA341D HT3 trainers, 45 (67*) various Wessex, 18 Sea King HAR 3

Note 3: The two Chinook squadrons (Nos 7 and 18) held 27 CH-47s between them; another 5 were in an OCU squadron.


From wargamers who can be quite anal about their subject. (looks about right to me)

[Kitbag]

Should be noted that the 'Force Multiplier' ie tanker fleet has also been emasculated

[BEagle]

Whereas 30 years earlier, in 1956 in 2 ATAF alone:

2 Sqn Swift FR5 Geilenkirchen
3 Sqn Hunter F4 Geilenkirchen
4 Sqn Hunter F4 Jever
5 Sqn Venom FB4 Fassberg
11 Sqn Venom FB4 Fassberg
14 Sqn Hunter F4 Oldenburg
16 Sqn Venom FB1 Celle
17 Sqn Canberra PR7 Wahn
20 Sqn Hunter F4 Oldenburg
26 Sqn Hunter F4 Oldenburg
31 Sqn Canberra PR7 Laarbruch
67 Sqn Hunter F4 Brüggen
68 Sqn Meteor NF11 Wahn
69 Sqn Canberra PR3 Laarbruch
71 Sqn Hunter F4 Brüggen
79 Sqn Swift FR5 Wunstorf
80 Sqn Canberra PR7 Laarbruch
87 Sqn Meteor NF11 Wahn
88 Sqn Canberra B(I)8 Wildenrath
93 Sqn Hunter F4 Jever
94 Sqn Venom FB1 Celle
96 Sqn Meteor NF11 Ahlhorn
98 Sqn Hunter F4 Jever
102 Sqn Canberra B2 Gütersloh
103 Sqn Canberra B2 Gütersloh
104 Sqn Canberra B2 Gütersloh
112 Sqn Hunter F4 Brüggen
118 Sqn Hunter F4 Jever
130 Sqn Hunter F4 Brüggen
145 Sqn Venom FB1 Celle
149 Sqn Canberra B2 Gütersloh
213 Sqn Canberra B(I)6 Ahlhorn
234 Sqn Hunter F4 Geilenkirchen
256 Sqn Meteor NF11 Ahlhorn
266 Sqn Venom FB4 Fassberg
541 Sqn Meteor PR10 Wunstorf
652 Sqn Auster AOP6/9 Detmold

:(

And if I recall correctly, the peak numerical V-bomber strength was in early 1963 with 22 bomber squadrons (9 Vulcan, 5 Victor and 8 Valiant).....:hmm:

[Tengah Type]

A few changes to Kitbag's roundup:

Brize Norton 10 Sqn - 13 VC10 C1
101 Sqn - 9 VC10 K2/3
216 Sqn - Reforming with Tristars

Wyton No 1PRU (later 39 Sqn) - Canberra PR9 & T4

[gr4techie]

One or two typos in the above posts... The Tornado F3 OCU was 56(R) Sqn.

???? - 2003 RAF Coningsby
2003 - 2008 RAF Leuchars
2008 Disbanded after merged with 43(F) Sqn

I also remember there was an OEU when 41 Sqn still flew Jags. The OEU badge was 3 sets of wings and a vertical sword on a purple background.

[RAFEngO74to09]

gr4techie,

In 1991, the Tornado F3 OCU was 229 OCU / 65(R) Sqn, and 56 Sqn was still equipped with the Phantom FGR2.

229 OCU / 65(R) Sqn was not redesignated as 56(R) Sqn until 1 Jul 92.

[Roadster280]

What threats do the RAF FJ sqns of today train for, as opposed to those of 25 years ago? How credible and apparent are those? I think the reason there are far fewer sqns lies partly in the answer.

Same reason there are fewer troops and tanks, and fewer ships and matelots than 25 years ago.

Not saying it's right, but that's the "peace dividend" of the end of the Cold War. The Taliban insurgents don't constitute 3 Shock Army (i.e. 5 Divisions of armoured troops with state funding, with supporting nuclear-armed air and naval assets etc).

[DITYIWAHP]

More attrition here due to cost cutting than any enemy action...

Perhaps we need to start to train for a different sort of threat (invisible, asymmetric, unaccountable, no recce slides of the forces involved, continually able to reduce both morale and force numbers.... and so on....).

Not sure about "peace dividend" given that UK forces have been repeatedly involved in more conflict since the end of the cold war than during it.

[Evalu8ter]

How did we get here?

Cost cutting has doubtless been a major factor - as has getting out of entire capability areas (EW Support - 360Sqn, let alone MPA....). However, the FJ world should be a little careful about complaining too loudly; to the detriment of other fleets the RAF has introduced Typhoon and continues to pursue F35 with vigour. These Gen 4.5+ toys have robbed a massive part of the budget and the price of dining at the top table has been a reduction in sustainable force size. It was totally unrealistic to expect a 'one for one' replacement for legacy FJ types when you've justified paying the enormous sticker price by claiming they're X times more capable than their predecessors....

Some of the FJ Sqns have been replaced by RPAS, others by improved ISR capabilities. Other roles (eg Maritime Attack) have simply been removed. I'd be bold enough to suggest that, MPA aside, it is a better balanced RAF we have today and far more capable (in all terms but concurrency). We have, post-Typhoon 'bulge', introduced genuine organic heavy lift (C17), much improved ISR (Sentinel, Shadow, Pred, Reaper, RJ) with A400M and F35 (so much more than a FJ....) to come. Yes, elements were UOR funded, and doubtless some of the FJ rationalisation is an attempt to bring these useful capabilities into core.

It's quite funny to see the RW force listed as 'non combat sqns' in Kitbag's list. How times change......

[99 Change Hands]

Does anyone know where the '20 Sqn at Wildenrath' thing comes from? Corgi do a diecast GR1 of 20 Sqn Wildenrath and post #11 above lists 20 Sqn twice, once at Laarbruch and once at Wildenrath.

[4Greens]

Dont worry about fast jets, get some suitable maritime patrol aircraft.

[GeeRam]

Kitbag] Available RAF assets 1989:

ROYAL AIR FORCE - UNITED KINGDOM

1. Binbrook, Lincs, UK:
a. No. 5 Squadron: 12 Tornado F3 (Lightning until 1987) (may have been at Coningsby)
b. No. 11 Squadron: 15 Tornado F3 (Lightning until May 1988, re-formed with F3 in August 1988)


Binbrook closed as an operational base in 1988 when the Lightning was withdrawn from service.

[Tankertrashnav]

Beagle - your post concerning the strength in 1956 is interesting, but of course quite irrelevant to today's situation. In those days we were geared up for a confrontation with the Soviets.

Nowadays of course it is quite unthinkable that there could be any military threat from Russia that we might get involved with!




Isn't it?

:eek:

[Haraka]

Seriously though, why would anybody now want to formally invade the U.K?:}

[Heathrow Harry]

Only Alex Salmond looking for the money we "stole from Scotland"

[Easy Street]

It's quite funny to see the RW force listed as 'non combat sqns' in Kitbag's list. How times change......

I would observe, perhaps provocatively, that being shot at on a regular basis is not a defining characteristic of a 'combat' unit, even if minigun fire is returned in self defence! Unless we have started using our RW fleet to go actively looking for targets to shoot a la Apache then they remain support sqns, albeit mighty brave ones!

[Vendee]

Does anyone know where the '20 Sqn at Wildenrath' thing comes from? Corgi do a diecast GR1 of 20 Sqn Wildenrath and post #11 above lists 20 Sqn twice, once at Laarbruch and once at Wildenrath.From memory, 20 Sqn were equipped with Harrier GR1 at Wildenrath in the 70's before re-equipping with Jaguar GR1 and moving to Bruggen. Finally, they re-equipped with Tornado GR1 at Laarbruch.

[BEagle]

20 Sqn certainly were a Harrier squadron at RAF Wildenrath in 1975! I held for a short period at Wildenrath between my Gnat course and pre-TWU Hunter refresher. Which included a deployed Maxeval with 20 Sqn as an Ops Off.

Unfortunately their T-bird was U/S for the whole period though....:(

[Haraka]

20 Sqn went when the Harrier Force moved from Wildenrath up to Gutersloh in early '77.
As the Harriers taxied in to their new homes , the 20 Sqn machines dispersed to 3 and 4 Squadrons. Over the airwaves came a certain well known 20 Sqn aria.
" I scream , you scream , everybody loves ice cream......"

20s' twenties nights were no more, however 4 Squadron inherited their boss ( and my outfit).

[CoffmanStarter]

Not forgetting that the RAF once had an excellent Training Fleet both in terms of quality of aircraft and numbers ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps3fa2c54d.jpg

[Just This Once...]

Perhaps one of the best features of the training system was its ability to rapidly support the frontline. 1990/91 saw huge numbers of military aircrew and groundcrew pulled directly from Support Command to augment those deploying and to replace others that had deployed.

Strength in depth.

[ATFQ]

ZZZZZZZZZZ

[Jimlad1]

While quantity has a quality all of its own, has any assessment been done on how many aircraft those squadrons could generate, versus todays levels. Similarly, with the step forward in capability in general in terms of the weaponry, how many sorties would have been required 20 years ago to acheive the same effect that 16 aircraft did in ELLAMY?

While we are right to look at numbers (which in turn related to a large monolithic threat not far from our borders), comparing an airforce built to fight a short war prior to the end of the world as we know it, versus an expeditionary airforce optimised for precision targeting of buildings prior to our being embroiled in a decades long stabilty operation seems a bit pointless!

[Easy Street]

Jimlad,

Of course your analysis of 'single-platform' capability has been the justification for the ramp-down in numbers over the past 20 years. The trouble is, that analysis only works if you can ensure that those platforms are in the right place at the right time. Setting aside operational-level considerations, such as whether a small number of "super-fighters" can maintain air supremacy without being able to sustain 24/7 operations, the strategic fact is that our leaders seem insitutionally incapable of keeping assets "in barracks", lest they be seen as irrelevant. And there is a requirement to have aircraft deployed for "Defence Diplomacy" purposes regardless of how capable each platform is; this gets progressively more painful the fewer aircraft you gave. You can sustain a 24-year detachment of Tornados to the Middle East with 7 then 5 squadrons, but if we are to have only one squadron of F-35s then it will have to spend at least 50% of its time at home, or it will soon not have any personnel - even the Navy couldn't retain people at that level of commitment over a specialist career.

So while I accept that modern aircraft are more capable on a platform-for-platform basis, basic consideration of our personnel will force us to scale back what we actually achieve with them. Assuming our 2* / 3* / 4* actually accept that, from time to time, none of the aircraft will be deployed on some operation or other as a way of justifying their existence. That might be a tall order.

[Lima Juliet]

why would anybody now want to formally invade the U.K

That to me is a niaive comment (unless I missed the irony). There are plenty of countries with nutters wanting to expand their borders globally. Let's scrap the military and find out, shall we? Let's not...

Here is a list of likely/slightly less likely things that would happen if we got rid of our military (in no particular order):

1. Argentina takes the Falklands.
2. Turkey takes the UK sovereign base areas in Cyprus.
3. Spain takes Gibraltar.
4. Sinn Fein/IRA take Ulster.
5. North Korea/China/Iran/Uganda or some other lot fancy the UK's wealth and mineral assets plus a seat at the EU table and invade.

No Bucks = No Buck Rogers to keep them away!

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Coff

That picture makes me weep :{ what have we done with that crock of sh!te that is MFTS?

Boo hoo :{

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

That said, the current fleet isn't too bad a replacement for your picture above (but MFTS hasn't been delivered yet, either!):

http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/E15F4A77_ECF2_999F_8B66378651CCB680.jpg
http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/E16F3396_E960_E4BF_D4312D7E1A276055.jpg
http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/E16E70B3_C980_DD9E_9C6925A29B895F01.jpg
http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/E16DE721_F7D8_46A3_96F66F169FB64630.jpg
http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/9762A017_5056_A318_A8110429BEC1A16A.jpg
http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/E16ED3E2_CDFD_653F_CF2CB5D08224D3DE.jpg
http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/E16D8A89_DF6B_3551_0357F36D937ABCB9.jpg

And your picture above missed out the last of the Raspberry Ripple scheme aircraft:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/E16F96F3_DF92_EEEB_E4B52A2BDBE26F01.jpg
http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/E16FF291_9BBF_1483_FC199E6D53814212.jpg

Seeing as they are plastic, there is a good reason why they aren't black!

LJ :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

LJ ... It upsets me too ... even though I wasn't a good enough back then.

[RAFEngO74to09]

LJ / Coff,

In the mid-1980s when I was on the HQ RAFSC Flight Safety Staff, the training fleet numbered over 1,000 aircraft (including gliders, AEFs / UASs). In addition, there were nearly 200 "reserve" aircraft (mainly Lightning, Hunter, Jaguar, Canberra and all the small training types) in storage at St Athan and Kemble. Immediate Readiness Reserve aircraft had all mods kept up to date and could be issued to the front-line in a few days. There were so many flying units / aircraft MUs that it took 6 months of the year to conduct the very comprehensive 3 to 5-day Flight Safety pre-AOC's Inspections back then.

[Haraka]

That to me is a niaive comment (unless I missed the irony).
Did you not notice the final emoticon LJ? :)
Having said that , (it was of course tongue in cheek) do note that :
1. Argentina takes the Falklands.
2. Turkey takes the UK sovereign base areas in Cyprus.
3. Spain takes Gibraltar.
4. Sinn Fein/IRA take Ulster.
5. North Korea/China/Iran/Uganda or some other lot fancy the UK's wealth and mineral assets plus a seat at the EU table and invade.

1-3 are not directly in the U.K. per se
4.The N.I. Prods alone would knock that lot out ( why do you think the six counties were delineated in the first place ?)
5. It's a pretty long hitch- hike for any of those others to get to us in the EU.
Uganda - bring 'em on!!!!!

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks RAFEngO ... Don't worry the F35 will solve all our problems :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[alfred_the_great]

Easy Street - surely at least one of the F-35 Sqns will be spending 66% of the time away.

[Easy Street]

The trouble with RN harmony is that it works on the assumption that people will alternate between sea and shore postings, so over the course of 2 tours it averages out at more like 33% of the time away (although probably a bit more like 40% if there is an out-of-area during the shore posting - hmmm, 40% sounds a bit like the other 2 services' harmony!). Trouble is with the F-35 fleet there won't be enough shore postings that will allow guys to maintain their expertise. So we will either need to rotate people in and out of the F-35 fleet to other aircraft types every 2-3 years, with commensurate loss of experience, or we'll need to give them back-to-back tours working at a 66% deployment ratio. It can undoubtedly be sold to eager 20-somethings but the only people that stick around in the F-35 force long enough to become tactical expert QWIs or seasoned COs will be the kind of sociopaths who don't give a monkeys about family life... hang on, that might just work :-)

[alfred_the_great]

On the basis most Warfare Officers are around and about 660/3 until senior Lt Cdr/junior Cdr*, I'm not sure why other Warfare Officers - who will be paid much more - are "potentially" griping.

More to the point, standby for the RAF and Army to follow RN harmony rules!

*I certainly was until PWO Course, and the system is still living of the fat of my 14 months shoreside for my last 2 sea drafts and the next 2 (fingers crossed) coming up.

[Easy Street]

No chance of Army or RAF adopting RN harmony. Ignoring discussion of the willingness of different types of people to spend 2/3 their time away, the training requirements of both services cannot be squeezed into 33% of their time. A warship can conduct training in international waters to maintain its skills during a long deployment, but soldiers and aircraft deployed overseas are constrained by host nation agreements which often limit training (even assuming there are any decent opportunities to train in the first place). Given that a typical Brigade took almost 18 months to work up for HERRICK, they'd have to pull a 3-year deployment at RN harmony.... can't see that one somehow.

[Onceapilot]

The sad thing, is that some of us can see that Brit Mil is going to get kicked up the arse in a fight soon! Hmmm... maybe we have been already? :sad:

OAP

[alfred_the_great]

ES - Medicine Man and BATUK immediately spring to mind to disprove your point for the Army, and the extended OOA deployments in the ME for FJ Sqns also point to the RAF having to embrace it. The COUGAR series of Exercises will also see units routinely deploying every Autumn (and thus training Spring-time).

As for training cycles - perhaps the process needs to change. I'll grant you that I don't think the RN trains enough, but 18 months for a Bde to generate is far too much.

Don't forget, 660/3 relates to time out of base port, not time on deployment.

[Martin the Martian]

RAF/RN fast jet combat assets and associated training units /shadow squadrons as at 1 January 1991, not taking into account composite units in the Middle East (information from World Air Power Journal volumes 2, 3, 6):

Belize City Airport (Strike Command)
Harrier GR.3 (No.1417 Flight)

RAF Brawdy (Support Command)
Hawk T.1A (No.1 TWU/Nos.79, 234 Squadrons)

RAF Brüggen (RAF Germany)
Tornado GR.1 (Nos.9, 14, 17, 31 Squadrons)

RAF Chivenor (Support Command)
Hawk T.1A (No.2 TWU/Nos.63, 151 Squadrons)

RAF Coltishall (Strike Command No.1 Group)
Jaguar GR.1A (Nos.6, 41, 54 Squadrons)

RAF Coningsby (Strike Command No.11 Group)
Tornado F.3 (Nos.5, 29 Squadrons, No.229 OCU/No.65 Squadron

RAF Cottesmore (Strike Command No.1 Group)
Tornado GR.1 (TTTE)

RAF Gütersloh (RAF Germany)
Harrier GR.5 (No.3 Squadron)
Harrier GR.7 (No.4 Squadron)

RAF Honington (Strike Command No.1 Group)
Tornado GR.1 (TWCU/No.45 Squadron)
Tornado GR.1A (No.13 Squadron)

RAF Laarbruch
Tornado GR.1 (Nos.15, 16, 20 Squadrons)
Tornado GR.1A (No.2 Squadron)

RAF Leeming (Strike Command No.11 Group)
Tornado F.3 (Nos.11, 23, 25 Squadrons)

RAF Leuchars (Strike Command No.11 Group)
Tornado F.3 (Nos.43, 111 Squadrons)
Phantom FGR.2 (No.228 OCU/No.64 Squadron)

RAF Lossiemouth (Strike Command No.18 Group)
Buccaneer S.2B (Nos.12, 208 Squadrons, No.237 OCU)
Jaguar GR.1A (No.226 OCU) -No.1 Group

RAF Marham (Strike Command No.1 Group)
Tornado GR.1 (Nos.27, 617 Squadron)
Tornado GR.1A (No.13 Squadron)
Canberra PR.9 (No.1 PRU) -No.18 Group

Mount Pleasant Airport (Strike Command)
Phantom FGR.2 (No.1435 Flight)

RAF Wattisham (Strike Command No.11 Group)
Phantom FGR.2 (No.56 Squadrons)
F-4J(UK) Phantom II (No.74 Squadron)

RAF Wildenrath (RAF Germany)
Phantom FGR.2 (Nos.19, 92 Squadrons)

RAF Wittering (Strike Command No.1 Group)
Harrier GR.5 (No.1 Squadron, No.233 OCU)

RNAS Yeovilton (Flag Officer Naval Air Command)
Sea Harrier FRS.1 (800, 801, 899 Naval Air Squadrons)


Makes you want to weep, really.

[ATFQ]

ZZZZZZZZZZ

[Ronald Reagan]

ATFQ, we could leave the EU and save on that, we could cut the police by around 50% to 60%, we cut could the education budget, large cuts to much of the public sector, there are all sorts of ways to get the money if we wanted to!

[mopardave]

ATFQ, we could leave the EU and save on that, we could cut the police by around 50% to 60%, we cut could the education budget, large cuts to much of the public sector, there are all sorts of ways to get the money if we wanted to!

A joke right?
:confused:

[Roadster280]

Martin,

The list you put up shows 5 fleets capable of ground attack (Harrier, Jag, Tornado, Buccaneer and Phantom).

AD has two types (three if you count Sea Harrier) - Tornado & Phantom.

This must have been ridiculously expensive, to have so many fleets with overlapping roles.

Now there are two types, and one to come (i.e. F35) that will replace the Tornado. Seems like a more affordable proposition to me. Maybe more frames in more squadrons required, but not more types.

[Rakshasa]

.... till something breaks and you find yourself grounding 50% of your Air Force... :\

[Dominator2]

Rakshasa,

I totally agree. Ask the USAF the impact on their Air Defence when all F15Cs were grounded due to a fatigue problem!. All eggs in one basket is a very dangerous (high risk) strategy.

[Heathrow Harry]

"So, if 6 fast-jet combat squadrons are not enough then how many will the RAF need by 2020 to be credible and effective?"

Credible to do WHAT?

All depends on the mission - if all we're going to do is intercept the odd LCA who has forgotten to change frequency or deter the ravening hordes of Wee Ecks Army then 6 squadrons is too much

If we expect Mr Putin to decide to "protect" Russians living in Mayfair then we'd need 60 squadrons

[Martin the Martian]

Roadster, the five fleets of ground attack aircraft were four, as the Phantom was used only for air defence. Bear in mind also that there were different roles for different fleets.

The Buccaneer was committed to maritime strike and would no doubt have been kept busy trying to keep the Soviet Navy from breaking out into the North Atlantic.

The Tornado GR.1 fleet was tasked with hitting strategic targets, many of which were in the rear of the WarPac forces.

Harriers and Jaguars would have operated in support of ground troops, and in different places. I believe a good proportion of the Coltishall and Wittering aircraft would have deployed to Norway. Remember that we needed so many jets because the front line would have stretched from Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, as somebody once famously put it.

As for air defence, the Tornado had already replaced a good proportion of the Phantom force. The remainder, along, with the Jaguar, was due to be replaced by the EFA (whatever happened to that?). The Sea Harrier, of course, would be embarked on all three carriers and probably far away from British shores.

I think that if the Cold War had continued the Typhoon would have entered service as originally planned -and a lot sooner- supplanting the Jag and Phantom, while the Buccaneer would have been replaced by further Tornados. I seem to recall an article somewhere around 1990 in which BAe were looking at a variant based on the F.3 airframe with the Foxhunter optimised for surface search. I think three or even four Sea Eagles under the fuselage were touted as standard loads.

[Roadster280]

Fair points all.

Some may argue that if it can't be paid for today, it probably wasn't affordable then either, in reality. Hence the need for a "peace dividend".