Above transition level

[thing]

Now here's a juicy morsal for a young buck to get his teeth into. Transition altitude is 3,000'. You are flying on a south easterly heading, VFR over some scattered cloud at 4,000'. The reason why you are doing that is not important. You are doing it just because you can. There are no airspace restrictions and you are on regional QNH. What height do you/should you fly at? If any?

[Mach Jump]

First, I assume you mean the Transition Altitude is 3,000'.

In the situation you describe, you can fly at any altitude you like, so long as you maintain VMC.


MJ:ok:

[Pace]

Naaa

Octagonal levels minus 6 inches is the correct answer ;) especially if your on something

Pace

[thing]

First, I assume you mean the Transition Altitude is 3,000'.

Sorry my error. Edited.

[Mach Jump]

Minus 6 inches? := That's a bit sloppy! ;)


MJ:ok:

[Pace]

MJ

The six inches is presuming you happen to be flying inverted at the time so you don't kiss the tyres of the other aircraft going over the top at octagonal levels the wrong way :E See clever stuff :ok:
Problem with questions like this one right answer and the thread is dead :(

Pace

[Mach Jump]

When we loose the Quadrantal Rule, does that mean the sky's capacity to contain aircraft will be halved? :confused:


MJ:ok:

[thing]

What prompted it was an idle conversation the other day. I was talking about the soon to be introduction of the semi circular rule (always reminds me of semi circular canal when I hear it) and I mentioned that I like to cruise above the muck on a nice day.

'Ah, using the quadrantals then' said the other fluger.

'No, only if I'm IFR, if it's VFR above broken crud I just fly whatever is convenient' I retorted.

There then followed a bizzare conversation in which I said it was pointless being on quadrantals on VFR because it depends what you have set on the subscale against his argument that it was good airmanship to fly quadrantal even if VFR.

It wasn't a long conversation because a woman with long legs hove into view.

[ETOPS]

a woman with long legs hove into view.



So you were at Shoreham?

[Heston]

Blow the quadrantal rule discussion, I'd like to hear more about the woman with long legs please.


I mean, is she a pilot? What does she fly?... ... No not really - what about her other "attributes"?

[Mach Jump]

Ah. I see.

Well, if you do fly Quadrantals, you must fly them as Flight Levels, ie. on 1013.2 hPa.

Nothing to stop you flying IFR if you like, even if you don't have any instrument qualification, as long as you maintain VMC.

In the situation you suggest, you should choose an odd level+500' that gives you at least 1,000' above the terrain, and at least 1,000' above the cloud to maintain VMC. eg. FL055, FL075 etc.

It does no harm to fly Quadrantal levels in the cruise. If everyone did, collisions would be a bit less likely.

As for the long legged beauty? Well I believe there are other forums where they specialise in that kind if discussion. I wouldn't know what they are though, of course! :O


MJ:ok:

[thing]

She is a pilot. Think Penny Lancaster.

[thing]

It does no harm to fly Quadrantal levels in the cruise. If everyone did it collisions would be a bit less likely.

Be interesting to see if many collisions have occured above transition height. You may have a point though.

[BillieBob]

Transition 'height' - now, there's a new one.
Nothing to stop you flying IFR if you like, even if you don't have any instrument qualification, as long as you maintain VMC.Apart from European law, that is: FCL.600 IR

Operations under IFR on an aeroplane, helicopter, airship or powered-lift aircraft shall only be conducted by holders of a PPL, CPL, MPL and ATPL with an IR appropriate to the category of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instruction.

In any case, just because you choose to fly at a quadrantal level, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are operating under IFR.

[thing]

an IR appropriate to the category of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instruction.Does that mean that IMC holders can't fly IFR then?

Transition 'height' - now, there's a new one.

Every day on Pprune is a learning day...:)

[2 sheds]

No, only if I'm IFR, if it's VFR above broken crud I just fly whatever is convenient' I retorted.

thing

You answered your own question (as long as you are in VMC, of course, and we are talking about the UK). Whether it might be wise to also fly at a specific level is another matter.

2 s

[thing]

I was after opinions rather than an answer to a question. Just surprised me that some people fly quadrantals when it's pointless really unless everyone has the same subscale setting.

[Pace]

Thing

Quadrantles are a way of giving aircraft some separation from each other when in IMC or not looking out in VMC.

It is a method of flying IFR OCAS.

The aircraft flying VFR in VMC at those levels or on a QNH are supposed to be visual so aware of other traffic visually.

At least some separation is better than No separation ?

Pace

[thing]

I have no argument with that, all valid points but if you are IFR OCAS and flying merrily along at FL45 in VMC above 6/8 muck it's not a guarentee that Joe Bloggs who is VFR and flying on a regional will not be heading straight for you. As you say, look out should prevent any mishaps but we all know that it can go wrong.

You may be following the spirit of the law but it doesn't mean that everyone else is.

[Mach Jump]

In any case, just because you choose to fly at a quadrantal level, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are operating under IFR

I think you have answered your own point there. There is nothing to stop people choosing to operate in accordance with IFR, without being 'under IFR'.


MJ:ok:

[Mach Jump]

Does that mean that IMC holders can't fly IFR then?

I think that EASA regard the IMC rating as an IR (albeit 'restricted') for this purpose.

...it's not a guarentee...

None of this guarantees safety, but the risk of collision reduces roughly in proportion to the percentage of pilots following the convention.


MJ:ok:

[Pace]

Thing

You maybe up at FL95 on top Flying OCAS you start a descent to make a cloud break at 2000 feet to fly to a small airfield.

You enter cloud and are now in IMC descending so cutting many levels and not flying Quadrantles.

It happened to me with TICAS. Nothing showing transponding until a glider in cloud flashed past clearly visible in the cloud so very close.
i made a report on this near miss.

There is a risk but flying IMC/OCAS without radar and sometimes even with radar there is always that risk.

Flying OCAS IMC you try and reduce that risk as best as you can flying Quadrantles helps but its not an answer to all evils.

The only answer to that is to leave in CAS, cruise in CAS and arrive and land in CAS

Pace

[thing]

I think you would have a better chance if you were actually IMC tbh because the chances are you're not going to meet Joe Bloggs coming the other way flying VFR. I flew from the top end of Wales to the bottom end in total clag once at FL60 and felt as safe as houses. You know anyone else in there is going to be flying a level unless they are completely incompetent.

[englishal]

I tend to fly quadrantals even when VFR, so that if I end up IFR then I am at the right level. Also as most airways are defined as FL then it ensures separation from CAS even with large pressure differences.

However, it is more complicated that it needs to be. Here is a typical real life scenario:

Take off on airfield QNH
Transit a MATZ at airfield QFE
Switch to RPS
Climb above transition alt and set 1013
Transit CAS zone, be asked to switch to their QNH and transit at 6000' QNH
Descend to 3000 on RPS
Contact airfield and be given QFE for landing.

Why oh why can't TA be uniform across the country, say 6k for the UK, and why on earth do I need QFE to land. I was once given QFE and I asked for QNH, and was told by the airfield to set "the fox echo"...

[AirborneAgain]

ICAO Rules of the Air, the coming Single European Rules of the Air (SERA) and most older national rules are clear about this.

Above the transition altitude (or above 3000 feet AGL if no transition altitude is published for the airspace in question) VFR flights should use an appropriate semicircular VFR flight level. (Altimeter setting 1013 hPa.) ATC can of course assign different levels for controlled flights.