RASKO Hold

[Emma Royds]

Just a quick query for those controllers at SZC.

Is there a restriction or a procedure in place that requires us to approach RASKO from the North, prior to entering the hold? I have heard on more than one occasion of aircraft being vectored so that they are to the north of RASKO and are then given clearance to go direct and then enter the hold.

From the R/T chatter, it seems that there is a consensus that it makes our lives a lot easier if we hit the fix and turn straight onto the outbound leg but it's six and two threes in reality. Holding fixes can be approached from any direction and the entry should not take up any extra airspace.

If there is nothing in writing that says that we must approach from the North prior to holding, then you may be making life more difficult for yourselves instead of simply telling us to go direct to RASKO and hold! ;)

[checcker10]

Oh and whilst on the subject of RASKO, put it on the STAR chart for goodness sake. It's not a secret is it? I know it's not actually on the STAR ( another fine piece of design by the airspace wallies round here) but don't hide it away. ATC must get sick of people asking where it is!

[Gunman returns]

It's on the AFC chart which is the purpose of that chart.

[Emma Royds]

It is not so much the manoeuvring space, it is the time it takes. Similarly, when you get sent over to BUBIN from DESDI many will vector you approximating the outbound leg then a turn back to the hold. It is far easier to get you in a position for the correct EAT than letting you do whatever the correct entry may be which I would bet 99% of controllers would have no idea what it is going to look like or how long it will take especially if a 77W.

Interesting to hear and thanks for the insight.

As for entering the hold, the time taken to enter from a direction other than going straight to the fix and turning outbound, will be no different from an actual hold itself. The 777 knows the ICAO dimensions of the hold airspace and will fly an entry from any direction, (as will most aircraft) so that it remains very close to the space taken to fly a standard hold. Time taken from going outbound to spinning round and next hitting the fix next, will not be much different from a standard hold.

As for vectoring on the outbound leg of the hold prior to the STAR, I sometimes thought that with so many aircraft, you can't see where we are exactly in the hold due to so many radar returns, hence vectoring us out of the hold first to see exactly where we are. If everyone did 1 min legs then the standard hold is going to be close to 4 mins. When bearing that in mind, would you not have enough control to make sure that our EAT was met if you kept us in the hold and sent us back to the holding fix, depending on where we were in the hold and the time taken to get back to the fix?

Finally, it seems that 1000 feet per minute seems to be the 'preferred' rate of descent in the hold and if this was to appear in the UAE AIP as a procedure for DXB arrivals, this would then show on our approach charts, unless otherwise advised. It would also cut down on the R/T as well as it would be written on front of us all, regardless of operator etc. Then again anything that makes life easier normally remains to be only a dream!!! :}

[Macrohard]

"standard hold is going to be close to 4 mins". Only if you are flying a small aircraft such as a Cessna172 or the like.
For your own sake, time a 1 minute pattern next time you have the joy of holding. You may find it interesting that it takes significantly longer than 4 mins, especially if at altitude.