Middle East or stay at home ?

[777X]

Many of my former colleagues had been 'forced' to the ME around 2009 to 2011 when airlines in Europe started failing at a significant rate. Large numbers went to Qatar and EK and stayed in gainful employment. I've yet to see any from this era return home... Addicted to the forbidden fruit of tax free cash perhaps.

However in the last two years I can only think of a couple of guys who have left good jobs; one wanted to fly LH (missed out on Virgin and ba) and the other always wanted to fly for EK since birth, despite never having been out there! They always seemed very positive over the phone but when I recently visited, well one was talking about giving it another 12 months! Ok, so it's not for everyone.

There seems only one reason to go to the ME at the moment - cash! For a single FO with no dependants or debt, the tax free pay is effectively all beer money. Together with provided accommodation, disposable income can be three times higher than back home. However fast commands, for Boeing at least, are a thing of the past. I read somewhere all T7 upgrades cancelled for this year? I'm guessing many joining now may never see out a command there as 8-10 years (summers!) is perhaps short for some airlines but a lifetime in the sandpit. QOL? The list of negatives is endless on this forum so I won't repeat them here.

T&C at some carriers I know in Europe are improving greatly whilst things slide at the big three. A jet FO joining my airline today will be on £55k basic after a year on short haul (not a legacy airline) whilst the starting pay at one of the big three is circ £50k for wide body long haul working maximum hours around the clock. The net pay is 1.5k more a month in the sandpit, plus accommodation. Of course if you can get a quick command in Europe (possible at my airline) there is little difference in pay.

My question is therefore - is it still worth leaving a permanent job back home in a reasonably stable airline for a job in the Middle East, and if so, for what? Has anyone done just that and lived to regret it, then not been able to get back home? (Expat for life, getting further and further from home with each job change!). Many say if you have a good passport and reasonable job just don't bother.

T7X

[aussiefarmer]

Hello mate,

I will try and be honest and neutral here. I can only speak for EK.
Gave up a command to come here as an FO. I was talking to a colleague the other day that did likewise. He was saying that had he known what the reality was here he wouldn't have come.

As you say, money-wise is a no brainer. You WILL get transferred more cash to your account at the end of every month and always on time working here. That's the beauty of it, total job security (unless you screw up, then you will be "resigned" as we say here) and a very decent pay and allowances.

Now, in papers it all looked good to make the move when I looked at it a few years back before I left my old airline.

If there's one thing I have learnt in the sandpit is: it's not only about money.

Unfortunately, they think it is, but us who come from developed countries we know is not. I rather live with 2000eur back home than with 5000 here. Why? Because they are worth exactly the same.

Emirates has been very clever eroding the T&Cs "as the business could support" and neglecting to update our pay and allowances while the UAE soaring inflation is averaging just under 20% a year. Even our President admitted that on a missive not that long ago.

As the aviation in the GCC countries expand, there's less and less of the cake to take for each airline. Ok the cake is growing but the number of airlines with huge plans is growing too and there's a limit to this. Example: Emirates has grown considerably in size in the last 3 years but is struggling to make the profit that was making 3 years ago.

Talking about upgrades, there's all sort of theories around PPrune. You can either believe or not. But there's one truth: seniority means nothing. EK fleet transfers (now for the airbus guys to the 380 and in the past) have created a situation in which people 6-7 years in the airline are still to get their upgrade chance whilst people 3.5 years in the airline are getting their command interviews.

If you ask me, a new joiner on either fleet will be looking at 8-10 years for command. Think that EK needs to have a pilot workforce of about 6000 pilots (against 3500 today) before this person gets a chance (taking into account high attrition rates like they have at the moment).

So to answer your question, would I leave my developed country legacy or no legacy pilot job for coming here? No, definitely not for the experience and definitely not for the thrill. I would do it for money, maybe, but taking a huge commitment to save as much as possible with plans to bail out in the middle-term and knowing that my lifestyle is gonna receive a big hit (with the prices as they are in Dubai).

I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see things getting better here for us. I believe we should be happy if they stay the way they are. And the reason is simple: the business is having difficulties to be as profitable as what it used to be. The 12-week bonus times are gone. I think we will keep our jobs but we will be struggling just like everyone else does. And fighting with a soaring inflation. And for that, I rather do it in my green, relatively fair, developed, educated, legislated country.

[Al Murdoch]

My advice would be to talk to your friends in the Middle East. Don't take advice from these message boards - there is a huge amount of (often) unwarranted negativity and guesswork. Be careful of assuming that what is posted here is accurate.

[Dirigible]

If you want to take advice from these forums, just use the search function. This subject has been done to death :ugh:

[Capt. Flamingo]

You answered yourself already in your post.

Good luck with the decision

[thehonourablefong]

Many of my former colleagues had been 'forced' to the ME around 2009 to 2011 when airlines in Europe started failing at a significant rate. Large numbers went to Qatar and EK and stayed in gainful employment. I've yet to see any from this era return home... Addicted to the forbidden fruit of tax free cash perhaps.

Well 777, it depends entirely on your point of view.

Some people come over to Dubai, Abu Dhabi or Doha (okay, most people in Doha it seems) and having decided that they a) were forced against their will to come over or b) will only spend 3 or 5 years here, spend their entire time over here looking at the negatives and completely ignoring the positives, in order to ensure they don't regret leaving. Those who were ‘forced’ to come over probably applied because these 3 are the best of what’s out there for expats. I know plenty of people who were furloughed or lost their jobs and have now resigned from their 'home' carrier, preferring to stay out here than go back home to sit in the RHS of a 737 doing 4 sector days, eating crusty sandwiches that they probably made themselves and trudging back to the office car park to drive their 2004 Fiesta back home.

However in the last two years I can only think of a couple of guys who have left good jobs; one wanted to fly LH (missed out on Virgin and ba) and the other always wanted to fly for EK since birth, despite never having been out there! They always seemed very positive over the phone but when I recently visited, well one was talking about giving it another 12 months! Ok, so it's not for everyone.

Plenty of people come and go here, but of course the majority stay for varying lengths of time and I’ll reiterate that the majority of people who are unhappy had a plan for 3 or 5 years and spend every day after they arrive convincing themselves of why they want to leave. I didn’t do that in my home country, I just got on with it and said that when I got bored, I’d move. However too many people don’t do that here. It isn’t that far home if you’re European, the only problem being the load factors when you want to head back. Then again, If your old company had 90% seat availability for staff, you may have a slightly more pragmatic view on the matter. The US/Aus is of course a different story, most Europeans wouldn’t go to Aus for a job, long-term, it’s the same for (particularly) Americans here.

Did your mate tell you about any of the things he enjoys over here, or did he spend lots of time telling you that there’s nothing to do save shopping here? Because that’s t*ss…my list of potential Dubai pastimes:

1) Canoeing offshore
2) Sailing/Sea Fishing
3) Diving
4) Climbing
5) Cycling on the numerous tracks
6) Hockey
7) Rugby
8) Karting/Driving

Of course, back home most guys couldn’t afford to buy a boat or a track car, or would freeze to death if they wanted to canoe in the open water for 8 months of the year, or climb mountains.

There seems only one reason to go to the ME at the moment - cash! For a single FO with no dependants or debt, the tax free pay is effectively all beer money. Together with provided accommodation, disposable income can be three times higher than back home. However fast commands, for Boeing at least, are a thing of the past. I read somewhere all T7 upgrades cancelled for this year? I'm guessing many joining now may never see out a command there as 8-10 years (summers!) is perhaps short for some airlines but a lifetime in the sandpit. QOL? The list of negatives is endless on this forum so I won't repeat them here.

Yes, command times are extending but how long are long haul commands in your carrier? How long will you spend eating the aforementioned sandwiches and driving your banger to and from work 20 times a month before you get to sit in the left hand seat of the aforementioned 737 for another 10 or 15 years, waiting to fly long haul in the hallowed seat for the last 5 years of your career? Will you even get a command long haul or will your course just miss out, as in my old carrier, because you were on the wrong course as a new joiner. I believe that in the US, the problem of long command times was partially solved by offering guys a reserve captaincy - permanent standby for up to 5 years. Sounds like a riot.

QOL? I can tell you that my previous crowd, most likely one of the most unionised in Europe, the skippers were certainly complaining about QOL when they were doing 4 sector days flying 6/2/5/1 all summer and 5/2/6/3 over winter. The guys here have a tough time, especially those of us who spend a significant amount of time flying into Incredible India (incredible being the operative word) at 4 in the morning, but I can honestly say that it probably isn’t much worse than what they left behind - when you mention it, most agree they prefer to be here.

As far as summer goes, as I said above, if you spend the whole cool period complaining that the summer is coming, you’ll a) p*ss everyone off and b) hate it even more when it comes. Yeah, it’s bloody hot and massively humid. 8-10 years is the same amount of time anywhere, how long it feels depends on how much of that time you spend complaining over here in the 'sandpit' (btw, what is it they're calling Warwickshire now, Atlantis, is it?). It’s also pretty manky in HK and Singapore, people seem to complain less about it there. It’s also like that for a damn sight less of the year than it is raining and blowing a hooley back home. Believe me, I lost count of how many weekly baths my dog got back home and how much time she spent locked in the kitchen drying off (yes, people over egg how hard it is to have dogs over here, ours go into the desert 4 days a week for 8 months of the year and as long as they have water, they see it just as a big beach. Much better than a muddy farmer’s field for us, makes b*gger all difference to them.). However can I please take that above the snow banks and flooded rivers that home has been getting?


T&C at some carriers I know in Europe are improving greatly whilst things slide at the big three. A jet FO joining my airline today will be on £55k basic after a year on short haul (not a legacy airline) whilst the starting pay at one of the big three is circ £50k for wide body long haul working maximum hours around the clock. The net pay is 1.5k more a month in the sandpit, plus accommodation. Of course if you can get a quick command in Europe (possible at my airline) there is little difference in pay.

T&C’s in Europe improving? I haven’t seen much evidence of that. Things aren’t the same as they used to be out here, you’re right there, however Dubai isn’t, as you may be inclined to believe, the most unliveable place in the world nowadays and simply doesn’t have to pay the rates it used to to get people over here. That said, I go to work, have a chuckle for the (invariably) day and go home. With my wife working, we save 80% of her salary. When we were at home, we needed both salaries just to survive. We go out to 5* restaurants when we want, we can go on holiday more often to get away, and we can buy nice stuff. People are going to say that that doesn’t matter, but it’s easy to say you’d prefer to have a Yaris and a 2 up, 2 down terrace when you drive a Cayenne and live in a, well, 2 up, 2.5 down terrace (if you rent). But the 2.5 house still has nicer stuff in it.

I don’t quite get your point about the salary. '1.5k' doesn’t include accom. What does rent/mortgage cost you at home? £800 for a small place? So you’re probably taking home £2300 a month extra. That’s a LOT of money…how much extra do you want to earn without moving to China and dying from breathing difficulties?

I am unsure as to who you fly for, of course, but the lack of stability, the boom/bust nature of European aviation puts me off, there are plenty of guys who stayed here because their last 4 carriers went bust. I hope not, but I don’t have too much faith that Virgin will be around for generations. They also seem to lay guys off every time someone in the Bundesbank sneezes.

And yes, there is little difference in pay between an expat FO and a home-based skipper. Please tell me about the difference once you are an expat skipper? How about if you get a fast-track command over here (as have been given recently, and will surely come and go in the future, admittedly unpredictably)?

Accountants (apologies, I don’t often swear without an asterisk) tell me that the EK F/O package is worth 120k+ in a UK salary. The Skipper salary tops out at over 200k with schooling, housing etc taken into account. And even if you are a skipper for a few extra years back home, you'll still earn more over here, if that is your only argument.

My question is therefore - is it still worth leaving a permanent job back home in a reasonably stable airline for a job in the Middle East, and if so, for what? Has anyone done just that and lived to regret it, then not been able to get back home? (Expat for life, getting further and further from home with each job change!). Many say if you have a good passport and reasonable job just don't bother.

My answer, therefore, to your question, considering the tone of your post (which could to some sound like ‘why would anybody be so stupid as to move overseas’ – although of course I’m sure you are entirely neutral about the whole debacle), is no, for you, you would hate it out here.

Don’t come out here to improve you bank balance, the future of your family and children and their education, the life experience you will get leaving the house you own on your parent’s street, the opportunity to avoid endless 4 sector days de-icing and getting the sh*t kicked out of you on every approach.

Don’t come out here if you don’t want to live outside your home country because that, this place is not, and don’t come out if you are of the opinion that people out here come out solely because they’re desperate and are at the bottom of the chain everywhere else.

But:

- if you think being an expat may actually not be a bad life

- if you will go out and make the effort to find things to do in your spare time,

- if you enjoy being able to set up your future more certainly than at home,

- if you want to be as certain as anyone can be that you’ll avoid being laid off

- if you are willing to find a group of friends that match your approach and can appreciate that the expat community spirit is far closer (not THAT close necessarily, unless you want that of course, I believe the OMO club is always open to new members) than the ‘you leave me alone, I’ll leave you alone - while that crack addict is busy stabbing you’ spirit that sadly appears to have emerged at home,

- if you are willing to accept that you don’t get owt for nowt, that the company will never treat its staff as well as most airlines back home have to (I can think of at least one EU employer who is far worse), and that hoping this will change is going to a) be futile and b) ruin your enjoyment of anything,

Then maybe, just maybe, you should come and give it a go.

Perhaps you could now answer me this question while I change into my shorts and flip flops and walk my dogs around the huge lake in the middle of my 'walled compound':

Why the hell should I move home?

[falconeasydriver]

Post of the year award so far goes to Fong :D

[Hold position]

Excellent reply, you have managed to answer it with hummer and integrate.

[thehonourablefong]

Oh chaps, come on, it's nothing!

Seriously though, any chance you could recommend me for a Najm? I believe they're giving out half-filled Costa cards with them now.

I also appreciate the irony of repeatedly editing the grammar in my post, whilst leaving the phrase 'owt for nowt' firmly in place.

On a more serious note, I would also say that my decision to move was finalised when flying with numerous people who had nearly left to come over here, but didn't...I decided that I would be more devastated to find, 10 years down the road when it is too late, that I regretted coming over here and would have to spend the rest of my career wondering 'what if' than coming over, trying it, not liking it and being able to go home a bit richer, having found out the truth for myself.

If it works for me out here, I hope to retire 5 years earlier and spend my time thinking about how hard I would still be working at home as I eat too much and drink myself to an early grave on my yacht. That's perhaps the hard reality.

[theidler]

These four posts were made a few years ago by the same poster in a time frame of just over a year. Take note of Al Murdochs post #2 on this thread.

He's happy at first.
I've been here 18 months and I love it! Nobody comes to EK from the UK for the Bunce. It's a question of quality of life. I came here to get away from crappy weather, tax, crappy promotion prospects, tax, a crappy government, tax, crappy services, tax, miserable b******s on late trains, tax, road rage,tax, the whordes of juvenile delinquents of a jilted generation, tax, same old Med and Caribbean routes, tax, same old routine, tax, whinging b******s, tax oh and dwindling pensions. Enuff said. Four months later he's still happy.
If you want as secure a job as you can get in today's world, to go to work with a decent bunch of people, flying a young fleet of well maintained aircraft to wide and varied destinations and have the decision of beach,pool or golf to make on your days off then give it a whirl.
You can only compare it to what your previous (or current) employer was (is) like. 330 Man is spot-on when he says that you wouldn't leave a good job with a stable or a National carrier to come to Emirates, although saying that there are 2 young guys from BA here who are having a ball. I came here from a UK charter carrier as an F/O along with 5 colleages from our old airline along with people from SAA, Sabena, Swissair, SAS, Cathay and a whole host of scheduled, charter, international and domestic carriers.
My only regret is that I didnt apply 3 years earlier. I've been here for almost 18 months and I haven't regretted it. If you are caught up in a tough decision then take a trip out here and see it for yourself as it isn't to everyone's tastes. If you're married make sure you bring your wife.
The only downside is that it isn't the best pay in the industry and it is tied to the dollar, but on balance my quality of life is much better than with my previous mob and you can't really put a price on that.
Then just three months later he's writing about why Ryanair is better than EK.
Decent money, home every night, able to spend more time with the family, easily make 'Last Orders' at your local watering hole, COMMAND, good craic at work, friendlier working enviroment, safe(r) roads, as for tax, you'll probably be making more in sector pay to offset against income tax, EUROPE, greenery, no long overnight flights, no jet lag or feeling permanently knackered, fun at work...spending the best part of the last 18 months looking at what my friends back in charter and Lo cost have in terms of quality of life, money, pension schemes, promotion opportunities...they are just some of the reasons I'm leaving EK.Six months later, he's out!

EK? What do I think?
Well I left today and some items I mentioned at my exit interview with HR went a little awry as I collected my cheque. Unfulfilled promises... verbal agreements.... 'cast iron assurances' not materialising etc. which left me feeling well and truly screwed over.And two months ago he posted this:

In the 8 years since I left NOTHING has changed!!!
I can see why you guys are whinging...
Does Emirates still stand for
English Managed, Indian Rosterers, Aussie Trainers, Everybody Shafted...?

[thehonourablefong]

As I mentioned though, he at least came here and tried it, if he can't see that he's better off having been over and hated it than always wondering, then it's rather a wasted opportunity!

And seeing as you made the same points as I did about job stability in the UK when you found those comments in December, are you bringing them up now in order to warn people about the people who post duff gen here or do you now feel the same, three months after you ridiculed him for what he was posting?

[Flyingmachine01]

Great Post.... Really enjoyed reading it.
Definitely got me asking about myself questions.

I am currently flying a 737, eating day old sandwiches. :ugh:
Seriously.... I can't wait for my start date.. But in the meantime I am hoping to apply to the other 2 Airlines in ME....

No going to die wondering....:=

[bob777]

777X I dd the same mistake 8 years ago. I'm still paying the consequences. Don't leave civilization unless desperate and disregards the lunatics telling you the opposite. Dubai is dictatorship where you have no rights. A place that sure suites a certain type of people, the unprincipled the self servant and flattered.
If you have a half decent job don't fall in the trap.


1) Canoeing offshore
2) Sailing/Sea Fishing
3) Diving
4) Climbing
5) Cycling on the numerous tracks
6) Hockey
7) Rugby
8) Karting/Driving

This is the funniest part. All this activities are possible for three may be 4 months month a year ( and you still have to survive cycling in Dubai ) the rest will be home with full AC and Mall of Emirates.. well a part from your night flying... Fong..you spent so much time on this post that it would seem you are trying to convince yourself more than others.. Nothing is like Europe and will not let a few camel ****ers turned sheiks change that.

[Laker]

To be fair the Diving here sucks, the sailing isn't so good unless you like cruising back and forth up a rather ugly coastline and don't mind being stopped by the coast guard. Be careful drinking on the boat! Cycling is also terrible unless you don't care about scenery. If you cycle on the roads your chances of getting killed are quite high. Hockey you can play in the mall. Climbing might be ok in the winter when it's not 40+ degrees. You can buy a nice car and drive up and down the roads to nowhere. The best social activity in Dubai is drinking at the numerous bars/clubs. If you enjoy playing football you can do that at some of the parks.

If you come as a single guy your best bet is taking your days off and traveling around the system. Save all you can and have a good escape plan. If you don't spend too much on a luxury car and house then you can save quite a bit of money. For a family guy you won't save much at all and the package might not be worth the sacrifices. Your command will take ages if you join now. I'm guessing 8-10 years+. Think long and hard.

best of luck

[aussiefarmer]

There's one thing that I think we will all (99.9%) agree on.

Not a single one of us wants to stay in Dubai forever.

Then that leaves 2 reasons (in my opinion) to come here:

- A faster professional promotion (upgrade) //not anymore these days!

- Saving money to retire earlier and/or achieve financial goals //barely possible these days!

In the end you are going to go back (as an average, EK pilots last 6 to 8 years in the company). Before it made sense (cash+3yr upgrade then few years as skipper and back home). But now, why bother coming??

[thehonourablefong]

777x, see, 'nothing but malls and the beach'!

bob, I spent my life in Europe inside with the heating on for 8 months of the year as the rain does its best to wash away everything outside.

Laker, in the UK you can't do much climbing in the winter unless you are really determined. You can play FIELD hockey outside, and yes, there are indoor facilities for playing ice hockey in the summer. You can't afford to drive a nice car on a road to ANYWHERE in the UK, and most of Europe, at least when your employer closes shop.

But yes, if you are stupid enough to cycle on the roads, there is a high chance you will die. Then again, if you are stupid enough to try it, having your genes removed from the pool is probably no bad thing...

[Rather Be Skiing]

There's one thing that I think we will all (99.9%) agree on. Not a single one of us wants to stay in Dubai forever. Then that leaves 2 reasons (in my opinion) to come here: - A faster professional promotion (upgrade) //not anymore these days! - Saving money to retire earlier and/or achieve financial goals //barely possible these days! In the end you are going to go back (as an average, EK pilots last 6 to 8 years in the company). Before it made sense (cash+3yr upgrade then few years as skipper and back home). But now, why bother coming??

That about sums it up. Locals aside, there are very few here that would say Dubai is on their list of desired locals to live.

That leaves, for the most part, money and professional advancement. Both of these are no longer the 'carrots' they once were.

The moral at EK, from my observations, is shockingly low. This seems to be the case across most employee groups. The human side of the equation has been so badly mismanaged, I don't think money alone will cure what ails this place.

[falconeasydriver]

RBS sums it all up rather accurately, the old saying of 2 buckets still rings true.

There is of course a 3rd option, which for me involves having the family live at home and between us we commute as best we can. Not ideal, but it works for us.
I'd come here again given the same set of circumstances as I faced at the time and that is as true today as when I joined.
Don't live in a fools paradise thinking the management/local tier will view you in any other way than labourers with a specific skill set, its never going to change and the only currency here is supply v demand.

[Alconguin Crusader]

If you are from a good airline in a decent country stay where you are. I know "good" and "decent" are all relative but having left a top tier airline it was a very big mistake.
Like my friend who is leaving Emirates said "they (EK) can double my salary and I am still leaving, it is the treatment." That is very true. The Ryanair pilots probably don't notice much of a change in management styles but anyone who came from a legacy airline or wide body job will notice a huge drop off when joining Emirates.
Plus it is just so damn expensive in Dubai. The earlier poster listed all the things he can do here. What he fails to mention is that all those activities would be half price back home even if you couldn't do some of them in the winter. Plus we would all be working way less if we were flying long haul so we would have more time to enjoy the activities.
I do believe things will get better. I know I probably in the minority with that view point but with so many pilots leaving and not enough coming management has to change its tune. The seniority list is 150 numbers less than it was 10 months ago. Is management going to continue to let good pilots leave with so many airplanes coming?

[captainsmiffy]

For 'Rather Be Skiing's benefit, low morals and low morale are two quite distinctly different things.......!!!

[The Outlaw]

They certainly are, and EK management has both in abundance.

If you have a job that pays the bills in a civilized part of the world then stay where you are.

As much as you'll wonder if you should have done it....you'll know for a fact that you shouldn't have done it.

Take it from us...we know.

"A smart man will learn from his mistakes, a smarter man will learn from the mistakes of others"

[777X]

Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate the honesty - positive or negative.

It doesn't help when, as a possible newbie, you hear of guys leaving to go home and fly ATR's or go back to Ryanair (I don't work for a LCC and have already done scheduled LH). As somebody highlighted, the majority bail after 6-8 years. I can pay down most of my mortgage back home in that time, see places I would not otherwise have seen, etc. etc. which is great, but then what?

Most will have at least 8-10 years jet time when joining. Another 10 in the ME RHS just seems too long with the prospect of a command back home within a year or two. Some say take your first command regardless of airline or aircraft, others say (where seniority rules) get into your airline of choice. However it might not be everyday a major carrier calls up to offer a job which makes it even harder.

spending the best part of the last 18 months looking at what my friends back in charter and Lo cost have in terms of quality of life, money, pension schemes, promotion opportunities...they are just some of the reasons I'm leaving XX.

I guess as it goes, if in doubt, change nothing. :hmm:

[Rather Be Skiing]

For 'Rather Be Skiing's benefit, low morals and low morale are two quite distinctly different things.......!!!

True dat! Perhaps it would be accurate to say both are low?!

[thehonourablefong]

777

Well it sounds like you'd already made your decision to be honest, and absolutely the best of luck to you with your next job, what/wherever it may be. If you only have a short time until upgrade in your current crowd, then ask this if you're really trying to decide whether to come over: will I end up as an unemployed skipper soon, or will I be a skipper in a company, country or town I don't want to be?

Not many people would come over with 2 years to go until command, there is obviously a reason you're thinking about it. As far as getting the quickest command you can get, instead of going where you want to be, my opinion on that has always been that if you end up looking for DEC jobs, where are you likely to be moving to? Here, I suspect. You may also have to go rather further west, as well, by which time I may well have a command here.

I have nothing more to say on the matter of why you should come over here and every word I posted I stand by, you well know the negatives as they are plastered all over this forum, however as I found when I arrived, there are many, many more pilots in Emirates who don't post here, have been around for more than ten years and intend to be here for another ten.

They have their families over here, their children were brought up here, and they (and this is an entirely different story) generally own their own homes, having taken advantage of the crash of 09-11. They don't post on PPRuNe and because you've never met them until you join, having only met the guys who have left and, therefore most likely, haven't got much positivity to spread. Someone told me I was trying to convince myself that I like it, well everyone else sounds exactly the opposite, they are convincing themselves that they hate it. Where is the consistency in that argument?

Don't get me wrong, Dubai has its downsides but there are lots of people who arrive over here who expect to live a life of unprecedented luxury, live in a 5 bed mansion, whose wife expects to just drink cocktails by the pool all day for the rest of her life and who expect to live in exactly the same way as they did back home otherwise, wherever it may have been, just with a bit of sun. They would be wrong about that assumption, again I will say that as far as expat places go, Dubai is up there so salaries and T&C's are dropping across industries, as increased demand makes recruitment easier (not necessarily the case for Dubai Airways at the moment).

But the people who have complained are generally the ones you find screaming at the uninterested desk people in the RTA/DEWA/Etisalat etc, who refuse to just roll their eyes, take a ticket and wait for the 400 people ahead of them to not be particularly well served. You go into these places twice to get stuff done, and you always will do. I've never tried it with kids though so I won't judge those who have.

But I have operated in and out of Milan, Rome etc many times with guys who scream and shout at the dispatcher to try and speed things up...does it work? I had one dispatcher just walk off the aeroplane and wouldn't come back until the skipper apologised. The guys I flew with who just smile, offer them a coffee and have a brief chat generally get away 20 minutes earlier. The same approach applies here. Although you will generally still have to go back...

Yes, as Alconguin Crusader said above, plenty things do cost more over here. What are you going to do about that? However I have to say that with EPC, things do change. A quick look at Chill Factore, Manchester's Indoor Ski Slope (with a 180m slope), says that an all day pass is £50 (about 300Dhs). All day access to Ski Dubai's 400m run is, with EPC, 250Dhs, or £41...there is balance, even for those not in EPC, an all day pass is 275Dhs. You also have more money to spend on things like that, which is the reason prices are higher.

I spent a good while when I arrived complaining about prices but after a while you look around and for many more things, it isn't as bad as a lot of people make out. A big part of the issue is that everyone here (including my wife and I) does more expensive things more often. Back home we went out once a month, here 3 or 4 would be more normal. We go to more events, we have a closer group of friends than one scattered throughout Europe and the time we spend with our family when they come over is more relaxed and more quality than a quick Sunday dinner before piling back home in time for school/work.

I am not a Ski Dubai rep by the way, but I'm not going to go all around Google in order to test cost hypotheses...

I'm not going to pay too much heed to the ridiculous 'you'll know you shouldn't have done it because we told you so'...as I said before, there are plenty of people out here who have exactly my point of view on the matter and they don't usually spend time on PPRuNe, unlike me who has nothing else to do for the next hour or so.

But again, if you don't really want to leave your home country, then don't come out here. It isn't a place to pine for home. Both of us (which is VITALLY important) wanted to leave home and try something new, I left my job at a brilliant national carrier, we have never been bothered about living next to our families, as much as we love them, and we saw it as an opportunity to experience something completely different...but you have to want something completely different in the first place.

Don't make your decision based on everyone here, but if you don't really want to leave your home airline/country/town (and it sounds like that may be the case), or if your wife wants to stay at home, then I would agree with the others, don't bother...but of course if that's the case, then why bother applying over here?

As a footnote, I saw today that Qantas is cutting 5000 jobs today and deferring orders as well. It's a real shame but that's the sort of stuff that is least likely to happen over here, at the end of the day, and when it does happen, it's unlikely to be any time soon. GF had 30 years...how long do you have before you retire?

[bob777]

The only reason why western commercial airlines are suffering is the unfair competition of ME carrier. A tad to easy to compete when de facto you are operating in social framework comparable to that of the Middle Age. If EK had to pay real pensions, maternity leaves, to accept collective bargaining and pay ground personnel salaries instead of exploiting them for peanuts and pay taxes like in real countries and unlike the kingdom of shallowness it would fail tomorrow. I personally don't know anyone in EK that joined for other reason than being unemployed. It works.. they crush other airlines with slavery and take their pilot. Still it is time to start questioning this system . Is creating unemployment and is threatening the social system in Europe a social system that is an example for the rest of the world. Unfortunately there are self servant individuals like you, extremist tea- party idiots that cannot even conceive what is right or what is wrong only what is good for them in material terms. So I always invite all my friends to fly Lufthansa Air France BA Qantas any airline that comes form the first world ..and stay away from ME airline. A few euro can make a lot of difference.

[Hold position]

Dear bob777, I don't know which plant you are in?
Europe aviation industry was in the down turn way before the ME airline started to use western talented management,Pilots, Engineers, and give them the money and the power to do what they couldn't do back home.
The union did their part, and shot themselves in the foot through their intransigent demands.
Now, if you ask me is it my first choice the simple answer is NO, but to blame it all on the ME carriers is pushing it too far! Have you forgotten something, what about the financial melt down, was that also caused by the dark invaders of the middle east? And what about the European low cost which has driven T&C to a new low which become unacceptable to any professional pilot? I don't see you saying lets not fly with them !!! What about the new cadet pilots slavery in the European low cost carriers, or are you a supporter of P2F?
The soon you land in plant earth, and recognise the reality of the aviation world the better.
The future of the airline industry, will be for the one who can keep a head of the computation by offering better aircraft , service, and prices, and look after its work force.
Finally( The Aviation Jihad will face new crusaders), is rather a sad statement considering the crusaders lost the final battle !
I do hope that you are a better reader of instrument than History.

[skysod]

One of the best skydiving dropzones in the world.......worth coming out here just for that reason alone!! ;);)

[adolf hucker]

Well now. Aren't some people easily pleased? A Cayenne and a bit of sunshine seems little reward for tolerating the raging bullish!t inherent in being an educated westerner living in a poor facsimile of a civilised society. In my brief sojourn in the ME the happiest (smuggest?) people seemed to be those who couldn't quite believe the 'lifestyle' they had attained (SUV, maid, brunches, swimming pool, assorted tat) and were happy to be compliant in the face of some ludicrous affronts to the dignity and self-respect of anyone not of local origin.

If you are happy to live a pampered and easy life, don't enjoy anything remotely connected with culture or countryside and prepared to be treated as a second class citizen, then give it a go. Even more so if you enjoy being in the company of other like-minded shallow materialists. Most of the guys I worked with gave the distinct impression of being trapped. Some were honest enough to admit it, the others went to great lengths to persuade themselves how much better off they were for having taken the leap.

I'm glad to have had the experience of a couple of years of EK / Dubai froth but am happy and relieved to now be doing more interesting flying in civilisation. Personally, I would prefer to live in a country with a bit of rain now and again (that's why there is stuff like grass and trees) and which does not rely on institutionalised servitude to bolster my lifestyle.

Whether it's worth giving up a viable career to try the ME is high stakes stuff. If you do decide to give it a go, don't forget to take your blinkers or you might accidentally see outside your little ex-pat bubble and see something distasteful.

[BWFiftyworld]

An interesting thread.

As a non pilot, but with family out in Dubai with EK, and having myself been born and brought up in a British Crown Colony with ex-pat parents and a servant to help bring up me and my sister, I have to say that "you gets what you pay (or are paid) for.." My parents returned to the UK, and I stayed in the UK after my education finished, even though I had a ready made professional job "out East".

There doesn't seem to me to be any point in going out to "the sandpit" and moaning about the heat - if you want "perfect"...go to Tahiti (and it even rains and thunderstorms there, so I'm told!).

Human rights issues are of course relevant, but not going there doesn't help to improve the situation - it just gives someone else the chance to take your place in the queue for a job...and Adolf Hucker - you don't have to treat people the way they are generally treated...it's entirely up to you. Go there and show those who don't treat people well, how they should treat them.

Take it for what it is - a chance to experience new things, fly different planes, go to new destinations, make some money, and get a new circle of friends. My relation and his wife are perfectly happy from what I can see, and are looking forward to bringing up their family there - good schools, opportunities all round and funding to enjoy it.

I think it is disingenuous to criticise someone just because they happen to like something you don't..but maybe (just as in my job) you get more disillusioned the older you get..!

I agree - it's probably not perfect, and it's not a "forever" place, but where is..??

If you don't try it, you'll never know...but if you do try it, do it with an open mind, I say, and you might even like it.

Good luck bob777...whatever you decide!

[120feet]

I come to Dubai with another airline 2-3 times a year. I get to BBQ with my EK friends when I am here. This is what I have observed over the past 8 year I have been BBQing with my EK buddies. When they first arrived they were very happy they got excellent bonus checks, the work hours were reasonable, and upgrade was fairly swift. The attitude of these pilots has changed dramatically over the years, particularly the last few months. They all agree they made more money as FO's there first year here than they do as captains now. (Realized, and adjusted for cost of living, and they all have kids.) I have also noted, what fleet you are on makes a huge difference to your quality of life. Small bus guys are turn around kings with 8-9 days off a month. (Yes, I did see the schedules.) One of my buddies had not been out of the Middle East or India for 5 months. 777 guys get 50% more days off with about 10-35% of their time in the rack. This being said, they are flying max hours as opposed to max days on like the 330/340 guys. They all fly on the back of the clock more in two months than I do all year. Life at EK now looks much like life at Qatar 6 years ago. Life at Qatar, now is where I expect to see EK in 4-5 years. All my friends moved from far abroad and noted that it took about 2 years to become neutral on the cost of moving, selling cars and houses etc. This is with kids and moving into a villa. So if you have kids 5-7 years is reasonable amount of time you would need to spend at EK to make this move worth your while. I would also look at the current FO $ and assume that will be your Captain pay in 7 years. People talk of things improving globally, but I do not see that happening here. I think we are moving into a "gun for hire" 3 year contract world. My honest opinion is if you are young and single, and have no hope of command at your current airline than EK is an option. If you have kids I would not go to EK as FO's with kids appear to be struggling with the package vs. the cost of living. EK is no longer a career airline, it was, but outside looking in they are continuing on a downward slide as far as how they treat their pilots. Just ask an Airbus guy who was forced to take 25 plus days of worthless vacation. I hope this helps. Again this is my POV.

[glofish]

No, 120feet.

It's pretty much the naked truth. :ouch:

I know not one of the contributors of another thread (where they complain about their application is not duly considered) will believe you. At least not now.

But it helps the undecided.

One thing is for sure: Many remain stuck, wether they like it or not, wether they had anticipated or not, they came here with kids and they have to stay. Unless they can afford to lose a big chunk of money. Emirates knows and counts on it, otherwise the attrition would be dramatically higher. So the whole question of leaving and the ominous "if you don't like it, leave" is very much futile.

If you come, make the best of it, if in slightest doubt, don't come. The way back is exponentially more difficult.

[jumbo1]

Fong
Good, well balanced posts.
The bottom line is when you come to the sandpit you have to accept that you are nothing more than a cost base on some bean counters ledger sheet. Nothing more, nothing less. The company doesn't care what you think about their policies in any form or way. They do what they do, whether you like it or not(mostly not). Be it DEC's, no bonus, pay rise etc.
Pick the battles you can win and ignore all the rest of the things you have no control over. The only one getting angry, wound up etc is you. Ignore the rumors, bitching, whining etc and get on with living your life. Only you have the choice whether to make it work or not. If you came here with your blinkers on (all you ever want or need to know about the job is on prune - in between the country bashing, Boeing v airbus drivel etc) then it's your own fault.
Think about where you came from. Are you better off now? If not and you're desperately unhappy then vote with your feet. Sound familiar?
Otherwise, go to work, get the job done then turn your phone off and spend what off time you have with your family, or if single there's enough to keep busy with.
Traffic here is getting worse. But then I spent my life in traffic back home too.
The DEC thing. Live with it, it's always been there and always will. Is it fair on the guys here - absolutely not. I don't like the policy any more than the next guy. But when you leave here are you going to go back to being an FO at Korean! China Southern etc? Or are you going as a DEC? How do the FO's there feel about it?
Live your life on your terms. Nobody is entitled to anything, especially here.
I've been here more than 10 years and am still very happy with my decision to come. My kids have both done schooling here and the life that they lived in Dubai from a social, educational, cultural exposure pov is the biggest gift I could ever have given them.
Does it mean that there were not challenges? No. Is everything just dandy and tickets boo? Absolutely not! Do I like the fact that our rosters are constantly tampered with, manual insertions day before leave etc, absolutely not!
There is no Utopia out there gents.....just your own reality. Ask the guys who've been to Korean, Turkish etc and come back. This job has many challenges but it's far from the worst gig out there.
Life is about choices. Only you can make them based on your own personal circumstances. Nobody has the right to criticize anybody else's choices. Walk in their shoes first. Everyone is here for different reasons and everyone's dreams, wants, needs etc are different and personal. Respect their right to their choices as much as they should respect yours.
Good luck with all your choices, whatever they may be.
I'll put on my flak jacket now.....

[Widebdy]

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/530732-becoming-ex-pat-staying-national.html The link above is to another very recent thread on the same topic.

I have recently faced the dilemma of going to UAE or staying at home and taking a command. I want the Dubai lifestyle and the long haul operation but financially as an expat I expect to be paid a significant premium for leaving my current life. however when I crunch the numbers the extra earning potential once offered by the UAE carriers is no longer obvious.

While crunching numbers for such a move a ten year plan is a reasonable point to start with. 4 years ago you could plan to live a good life saving a little money month to month but then pocketing a nice bonus. Saving was easy. Now however we must now assume at least an extra 2 or 3 years on an FO salary and it seems no bonus.

There appears to be the constant management squeeze on Pilots, it is taking place almost all over the world and UAE is no exception. Recently some of the threads on the pprune UAE forum read exactly like REPAweb.org the Ryr Pilot forum. Inflation is rising but the package on offer is not. Costs like school and accommodation allowances are rising but there is absolutely no sign on this forum that the UAE carriers will start to improve their package in line with the economic environment in Dubai. All this represents a dent in saving potential which gets worse on an annual basis. Over 10 years this adds up significantly. On top of the maths according to the forum it sounds like perks like roster bidding, annual leave and staff travel are not like they used to be, not a deal breaker but if things are not working out these are the things which make the difference between bearable and unbearable.

I do think there is money to be made with the UAE carriers however the margin versus what many of us can make in Europe is not what it was and as a result the decision is no where near clearcut anymore. I suspect the large easterly flow of Pilots from the likes of Ryr may be reduced due to the alternative offered by Norwegian who are currently recruiting in large numbers for both short and long haul ops. If the European flow of Pilots into UAE is reduced will UAE have enough supply of quantity and quality from other regions to care? If the answer is yes I can not see any reason the UAE packages would start to improve in line with inflation, rent and school costs. Even if the flow is reduced UAE carriers can still lower their entry requirements if they want to avoid improving the package.

All the above is just my opinion of course based on research directly from Pilots not on forums. I hope I am wrong. I hope the bonus returns and the package improves to recognise inflation, school fees and rent costs. If it does the decision to leave a stable European job will be easy again, as I feel it needs to be to leave your home.

Of course everyone has a different aim and for some to earn just 1 Dirham more will be enough to make the jump.:ok:

[thehonourablefong]

Widebody

Finally, a reasonable, balanced 'no' reply, you have restored my faith! Some very good points, and very well put across!

Fong

[vfenext]

Widebody, if you are comparing Europe low cost with EK then you need to revisit your calculations. If you think you are earning more or working less in EU then you are way wrong. The comparison becomes even more divided if you are married with kids. Someone has given you duff info.

[thehonourablefong]

I have reposted this because, without intending to, it was written in a way that directs comments towards sonoma when in fact only a specific paragraph was. I directed at him/her parts of the post that were not intended for him/her.

As sonoma wishes, and as he/she has every right to request, I am happy to apologise for that. Everyone has the right only to be accredited with the things they actually say. The rest is now, I hope, directed quite clearly towards other comments that were made to me by other posters on this thread.

Sorry, sonoma!

=========================================================

You know what? I have just deleted my last post because arguing with people in the 'hate everything, all is death' crowd is a losing battle.

However, I'll close (well, for now, I always enjoy a losing battle) with one last try.

I take offence to being patronised by people for my choices when they decide to take what I write out of proportion:

Sonoma, I assume that seeing as you are so against materialism and sunshine that you are both vitamin D deficient and dressed in whatever you can find in Carrefour? Do you drive an unmaterialistic '98 Fiesta, as I did back home? I doubt it. In your home country, do you also accuse people of being materialistic if they drive a nice car and have nice stuff that they worked hard for? Or does that only apply here?

How self righteous for someone to tell me to 'think outside the box' - do the same yourself then!

Sonoma, I look forward to your posts in the future when you are back home worrying about your pension, your mortgage, the kids' school fees, complaining that taxes are going up again, that your company is looking to downsize and that your name is in the red zone etcetc.

As for the numerous other people who have taken it upon themselves solely to rip my initial post to pieces, without taking the time to give a similarly in-depth reasoning for the 'don't come out here' vote:

I have never been employed by RYR by the way, as some people seem to think...I mentioned in one of the posts I made (that would have drawn you to that conclusion), I was in a heavily unionised, profitable airline (that doesn't need or ask for handouts from local authorities) before I came here.

How often do the people who take such deep offence to the way of life in Dubai give to the labourer's charities? How many one-way tickets home have you bought for those labourers who have been stuck out here after their employers have gone bust and been put in jail (opens the way for the slavery rant again)?

AH, 'culture and the countryside'?! I assume, then, that back at home you went to the opera all the time then? Or the ballet? I, like most people, do not spend a lot of time doing cultural things on my days off much as I didn't in Europe, as with everyone I know (but what do I know? My friends and I are materialistic heathens who drive enormous cars, driving them at great speed, throwing small animals out of the window at the labourers and going to brunch every Friday while the negative crowd drive their modest, cheap car to the labour camp to distribute food, drinks, sanitary supplies, copies of the Quran whose views they respect, and of course cash to the poor unfortunates who need them most).

When I go travelling I get my fill of 'culture' if I want to. In fact, with both of us working here (imagine that! The disgrace that having moved out here my wife doesn't sit in Costa all day drinking coffee and shopping for shoes, when I was promised that she would have her own man to waft a palm leaf to keep her cool before I joined!) I can see a damn sight more culture than I ever would have back in my old crowd. Countryside? I can get to Europe for green grass in 6 hours and to India, if I so wish, in 4. I can also get into the mountains in the northern UAE and Oman in less time. If you can't get over the fact that there aren't any trees and deer then I can't really help you, unless you were led to believe that the great jungle wilds of Dubai were close by when you joined.

Even more so if you enjoy being in the company of other like-minded shallow materialists

Maybe you need to find some new friends if you can't find anyone who has any depth or strength of character. In fact, it must be terrible for you, because seeing as everyone here is a smug, gold-digging (shallow materialists) racist* except for you, you must not actually have any friends.

*...were happy to be compliant in the face of some ludicrous affronts to the dignity and self-respect of anyone not of local origin

But of course, if it's perfect in your home countries, you won't care about making such vacuous friends here in this hell hole because back home, everyone is equal and free to do everything, which is probably why crime rates are through the roof and why, when you eventually head home, all the nice stuff you bought over here (or will you have given that all to the needy?) has been dragged through a window by someone who wants to sell it for a gramme of crack. If you want to look at stats as a friendly reminder, knock yourself out:

Police.uk (http://www.police.uk)
FBI ? Uniform Crime Reporting (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr)

And to pre-empt the argument that crime stats aren't released here, here's what America says about crime in, specifically, Dubai:

https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=15084

Then maybe have a look at:

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/united-arab-emirates/safety-and-security

and perhaps compare it to the advice issued for other countries, the US included.

And as for Some were honest enough to admit it, the others went to great lengths to persuade themselves how much better off they were for having taken the leap., AH,

Perhaps when you banged on about how awful it was here, the people who disagreed ACTUALLY liked it here, did that ever occur to you, or does everybody have to think the same way, as your namesake was so eager to encourage?

I'd say that when you came out here, you decided to bring your own set of blinkers, as everyone does...and I don't have a Cayenne, by the way...

Everyone has blinkers everywhere they go, be it at home or abroad. Don't hurl abuse at people who haven't, in fact, said life here is perfect at any point (example for those who disagree please), but who mention the rarely-mentioned positives about being here. And the person who is is, ironically, on the short haul fleet...

[vfenext]

Fong, rambling drivel! If you can't say it in a few lines don't bother.

[777X]

Regarding inflation in the UAE, there is a perception that if you only eat out monthly not weekly you should be somewhat protected. When I visited, the discount card brought it down to something sensible (not too bad when paying for just yourself). Otherwise yes it was expensive, in particular alcohol.

Certain groceries/household items seemed twice or three times as expensive as in Europe (toilet roll, potatoes!). Other daily stuff - coffee in malls, lunch, seemed exact same price at EU for now. Internet in EU is about 25 euro a month, I heard its over 100Euro there.

I guess buying a new car is tax free, saving a fortune on EU prices, and interest free, using their car loan facility. Or just get by on cheap taxis for first couple of years (one less debt to clear if needs be).

Any examples of extreme ongoing inflation to be aware for budgeting? Things you didn't budget for before going out there? At some stage rising inflation will cancel out the tax free gains... dont think its there just yet?

[Widebdy]

Vfenext can you elaborate? I am not sure if we have understood each others comments. I said i think you will earn more in the UAE? Especially if you stay well over 10 years. But the decision is not as straight forward anymore from a financial point of view. If one has say 2 kids the cost of schooling in UAE is going to eat up some of your "disposable income/savings". For many people going to UAE is about leaving UAE at some point with a very good lump sum. EK have a provident fund which helps but not all the carriers have this. I know many Pilots who would have gone to EK to escape Ryr are now very happy Norwegian is an option to avoid the sandpit. EK was more attractive 3 years ago with quick command and what many would regard as a "large" bonus.

[whossorrynow]

There's a big difference for a joining F/O and how far the pay goes in, wife at work in Dubai and no kids, and wife not at work and 3 kids.
I think Fong is in the first group.

[Emma Royds]

It is very much a personal decision as to whether it is worth it or not and if it will be a location that you will be happy living in. There is no such thing as the standard ex-pat and with that, there are also greatly differing financial situations amongst us all.

It is to some extent rather pointless trying to extract any opinion on here, as the views expressed differ significantly.

Some love living here and some hate it and there is everyone else somewhere in between. I have no regrets coming here and enjoy living here, however whats suits me will be someone else's nightmare.

[nolimitholdem]

Fong..you spent so much time on this post that it would seem you are trying to convince yourself more than others.

yep. That was pretty much my immediate thought.

http://s28.postimg.org/4jx04zim5/trying_too_hard_97693002349.jpg

Most of the "positive" types are merely self-justifying because - especially if they have a family - they have no choice. They're trapped, and they know it, and EK knows it. So to cope they go to their happy place. If you catch them in their more honest moments, the vast majority I've spoke to admit they'd rather be somewhere else "but, y'know, the wife and kids...".

I certainly wouldn't join if I had a family. That FO wage won't go far and you'll be on it for a long time now. If you're single and unemployed, maybe. But even then you better have a massive tolerance for stupidity.

[harry the cod]

nolimitholdem

That is, without doubt, the most pathetic and ignorant post I've read in a long time.

Why oh why do all the moaners feel it necessary to imply that the positive posts are to self justify being here. Really? Ever thought that it's to balance the negative vitriol that's posted from those venting the frustration, anger and negativity felt by the unhappy minority. What amazes me is that some of these posters go back years yet still they stay. Surely that can't be blamed on the wife and kids.

Or is it the reality that yes, indeed we are trapped. Trapped by the fact that the salary and package is still better than most could hope to achieve elsewhere and whilst there is much to be pissed off about, the knowledge that the same **** is going on everywhere else makes the decision to go so much harder. Show me an Airline that can offer a relatively safe environment to raise a family, good education and health care, high standard of living and a salary after 10 years of $230,000 tax free. That's why around 80% of those here are content and never read, let alone post on PPRune.

I just love how the intensity of threats to leave and how bad is EK always increases near pay review time. Do some of you really think they'll base their decision on these rants?

Harry

[koi]

If I came out, are the girls players. A sherry or two does the trick in UK legacy, only if accompanied by cashew nuts and a bowl of olives. Oh...and a cigar afterwards. Same for the last 40 yrs. Woof. Koi Carpus

[nolimitholdem]

ahhh. Harry the Cod. One of the foremost defenders/rationalizers. Dependably predictable.

Except - where is the moaning? I pretty matter-of-factly stated my observations of interactions with former colleagues. Simply that once you clamp on those golden handcuffs, you don't really have much choice but to believe and proclaim it's a great deal. (Or become an alcoholic). The missus and kiddies pretty much guarantee that.

Sorry if that seems like negative vitriol to you, but it would seem that's something you're a bit familiar with yourself.

Perhaps you could instead refute my comments about the finances of joining now as a longterm FO with a family. Instead of your usual tired "hey it's working for me" schtick. It isn't the company you joined 10 years ago with the opportunities you availed yourself of 10 years ago. You've convinced yourself the financial benefits for yourself were/are worth it. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I won't even disparage it as "pathetic and ignorant", mostly because doing so might imply I give a sh$t what you think.

Perhaps the suspicion of self-justification comes from the long, earnest posts extolling the virtues of the place and the job. Do contented people really have this need? Perhaps the comments that aren't quite so glowing are to provide balance to the powerful forces and massive budgets of the Dubai/EK PR machines. A touch of reality in a very phoney place.

If you think the unhappy are in the minority, you've only proven my point about insulating yourself from reality. Do not mistake employee retention rates with employee contentment. More people stay due to circumstance than choice, which was why the advice to stay away if you aren't inclined to shackle yourself down for a decade or more.

[cerbus]

Harry no way in he11 is 80% of the pilots happy at EK. I would say 80% are Unhappy.
With stagnant wages, theft of the Bonus and rampant inflation it is not a place for most pilots. Factor in DECs 7-9 years for command and a bunch of other items the biggest being the attitude of the management and you can see why pilots are not only leaving in droves but not applying either.
It is obvious you left a crap airline in the UK, probably a narrow body operation. Now you are comparing EK to that? That is hardly fair
After all the marketplace is dictating and showing us what really matters. How many wide body pilots are joining EK? How many pilots are leaving EK to go to other better operations? You don't see any LH, AF, or DL pilots beating down the doors to join emirates do you. Just narrow body LCCs and we all know what they are paid and how they are treated.
Heard a rumour that the Queen and Country is looking into taxing UK ex-pats. That will change most Brits attitudes on how great Dubai is.

[Wizofoz]

NLH- What id it that you perceive is "Trapping" you, Harry or anyone else here?

[cerbus]

Maybe it is all the bonds EK imposes on its pilots. I know we all should know before we sign on but they are still a steep hill to get out of and shouldn't be there in the first place.
Maybe it is the steep cost of moving to and from Dubai. Maybe it is the high cost of getting your home set up.
After all that a pilot feels like they have to stay and justify all the money they spent and yes "trapped" enters the lexicon.
Most pilots can't go anywhere else until they get PIC time and with upgrades taking 5 years and soon to be 7-9 years it is going to be a long time in the sand.

[falconeasydriver]

this I suspect is what Cerbus is talking about...

Ties that bind – the new statutory residence test
20th March 2013

A victory for HMRC which brought into the UK tax net the worldwide assets of a Seychelle-based billionaire has led to the creation of a robust new test of residence for taxpayers. Where do you fit in?

Ties that bind – the new statutory residence test

A victory for HMRC which brought into the UK tax net the worldwide assets of a Seychelle-based billionaire has led to the creation of a robust new test of residence for taxpayers.

The non-resident status of Robert Gaines-Cooper was successfully challenged at judicial review and in the House of Lords by HMRC, against its own guidelines, with the finding that he was indeed a UK resident.

The new test considers the amount of time you spend in the UK again your ties in the country, defined as:

UK residence – being treated as UK resident in any one of the three tax years preceding the year in question;

Family – having a husband, wife or civil partner who is resident in the UK and they are not separated. That also applies if that person lives with a spouse or civil partner who is a UK resident, or has a child under 18 who is resident in the UK (and he or she sees the child in the UK for more than 61 days).

Accommodation – accommodation which is available to them for a continuous period of at least 91 days during the tax year and which the individual uses for at least one night during the tax year;

Work – doing more than three hours work in the UK for at least 40 days in the tax year ;

Time in UK – spending more than 90 days in the UK in either or both of the previous two tax years.

Country tie – spending more days in the UK than any other country during the tax year.



The number of days spent in the UK is a critical part of the test, and we have outlined below how HMRC will assess residence in line with ties (it is important to note that there are distinct rules for those who take up full time work abroad):

Days in the UK - Resident here ?

Fewer than 15 - Not resident in the UK
16 to 45 - Resident here if you have 4 or more ties
46 to 90 - Resident here if you have 3 or more ties
91 to 120 - Resident here if you have 2 or more ties
120 to 182 - Resident here if you have 1 or more ties
Over 183 - Automatically UK resident


It’s important to note this is only a very brief summary of the key rules, and detailed review for individual cases should be considered before any action is taken. It is expected that this test will give certainty for around 90% of taxpayers for whom residence is an issue.

The guidance on the HMRC website is very comprehensive, and it's also refreshingly unambiguous, the devil however is also in the detail, but there is AS EVER lots of wiggle room :E

[Old King Coal]

Were I to start getting taxed by HM Government, i.e. whilst I'm living & working in this godforsaken sandpit, I would instead find a suitable 'foreign' domicile and then tell HM Gov to go and poke their 'UK citizenship' & Passport up their proverbial; wherein it's no longer worth the highly-taxed paper it's printed upon (imho) !!

Ps. Aside from returning to the UK for 3 days last year (i.e. to attend the funeral of a +3 decades friend), I haven't been back to the UK for over 5 years... and I have zero intention of ever doing so again, wherein (imho) it's a highly taxed, badly run, depressing, spent, has been of a place !

[777X]

How practical would it be to take your days off once or twice a month outside of DXB but within a few flight hours, e.g Cyprus, as I have friends over there. I see EK have daily direct flights to LCA. What are the restrictions on leaving sandpit on days off but not on AL (assuming a firm ticket to get back)...

[Enecosse]

(it is important to note that there are distinct rules for those who take up full time work abroad):

Everything else in the cut and paste does not apply as long as you comply with the 'distinct rules', by that I mean you should not have to undergo a statutory residency test if you take up full time work abroad and stick to the 'distinct rules'.
It also helps to have filled out the correct paperwork on leaving (P85?). Imvho as a fulltime employee living abroad.

[These seats are hard]

Stay at home captains being being rung up because cabin crew reporting cockpit for asking for some honey in there green tea. You cannot walk around in uniform with a coffee in you hand in uniform.

The place has lost the plot

[cerbus]

With latest austerity cuts there is talk of adapting something of the American IRS tax program for ex pats with a British passport but that is at least a year away if it happens at all.
As a disinterested observer it would make sense for H.M govt to look into that program with so many citizens living abroad it would be a huge revenue stream.
The US govt institutes it and only 15% of Americans have passports and much less live abroad.

[BYMONEK]

What are people doing to get themselves reported by cabin crew? If these minority few displayed some basic manners and professionalism, they may get the mutual respect. You reap what you sew in this job. Never is that statement so true when dealing with cabin crew.

10 years plus and a clean sheet must be down to more than just luck, surely? Or perhaps it's the fact I don't drink green tea!

[natie]

Fong thanks for your input.
I don't post here very often as I find it a very negative environment.
Due to QF redundancy soon, I have applied to work as a maintenance engineer with Qatar.
I hope with a similar positive attitude to opportunities as yourself I will have a great adventure and give my young children a great learning experience.
Oh and pay my mortgage off a bit earlier see the world etc.

[Luke SkyToddler]

99% of the discussion on this thread so far has revolved around EK.

For people from outside the sandpit it's worth reiterating that there is more to the Gulf than EK, there are very large quality of life differences between the Gulf major airlines, and that EK / DXB is generally considered the "best" of the sandpit options.

QR has a whole different set of issues and is widely considered the worst employer, for reasons that will become clear if you read up on some of those threads. The "unmentionable one" you'll have to do your own research on :rolleyes:

tl:dr - don't jump into a contract with one of the other airlines because a bunch of EK guys sold you on the idea.