Berlin Wall

[mopardave]

Gents


I'm wondering what the mood was in the RAF, but especially RAFG, when the Berlin Wall came down. Was it initially a (brief) period of heightened tension due to uncertainty, or was it instantly apparent that the RAF was going to be decimated due to the "peace dividend"? How did you all feel in those first few days and weeks? I spoke to a West German working in Cyprus, a year or two after it came down and he said your average West German resident wished it had been built back up again after the initial euphoria had subsided.


MD:ok:

[fabs]

I was a dependant when my old man was at 26SU Gatow. He was gutted as he thought we'd be posted back to UK early. And we were

[mopardave]

I was a dependant when my old man was at 26SU Gatow. He was gutted as he thought we'd be posted back to UK early. And we were

I get that Fabs.........I imagine, all of a sudden a lot of people felt as though they had no purpose.

MD

[Capetonian]

I know this is not directly relevant to the posting but I was in Berlin about a year after the wall came down and the differences between 'East' and 'West' were startling, frighteningly so.

I was in Berlin last week and to some extent the differences are less marked now but still apparent. The various museums and memorabilia related to communism, the wall, and the previous regime are truly shocking, moving, and saddening. People grew up and lived under that vile and oppressive regime in our lifetimes, and were murdered and tortured by the regime.

To see the cruelty of man to man in our times, everybody who has the opportunity should go to Berlin, Ozwiecim/Auschwitz, and Robben Eiland. I'm sure others can add to that list. I am not convinced that the horrors of the Nazi regime were worse than those inflicted by communism.

[gr4techie]

he said your average West German resident wished it had been built back up again after the initial euphoria had subsided.

I read somewhere that some of the East German working class now think they were better off when the wall was up. Makes sense as there's more poverty, unemployment and homelessness with capitalism; and less welfare.

[Capetonian]

some of the East German working class now think they were better off when the wall was upWhy? Because communism removed the desire to be productive and to strive to be better, as people sat back and waited for the state to redistribute what it had stolen from the people. Everyone apart from the ruling elite, the Honeckers and the Ulbrichts, was in sheltered employment, a brain surgeon earned only fractionally more than a cleaner or a clerk, and ambition was killed.

Now it's survival of the fittest, and those conditioned by years of communism can't make it.

[gr4techie]

I know this is not directly relevant to the posting but I was in Berlin about a year after the wall came down and the differences between 'East' and 'West' were startling, frighteningly so.

I was in Berlin last week and to some extent the differences are less marked now but still apparent. The various museums and memorabilia related to communism, the wall, and the previous regime are truly shocking, moving, and saddening. People grew up and lived under that vile and oppressive regime in our lifetimes, and were murdered and tortured by the regime.

To see the cruelty of man to man in our times, everybody who has the opportunity should go to Berlin, Ozwiecim/Auschwitz, and Robben Eiland. I'm sure others can add to that list. I am not convinced that the horrors of the Nazi regime were worse than those inflicted by communism.

To be honest, certain capitalist countries are just as vile, oppressive and responsible for a lot of deaths in the past 13 years.

[gr4techie]

Capetonian. Capitalism is all about stealing from other people and exploitation to get rich.

Maybe Soviet brain surgeons were not greedy and did not put profit before peoples health?

Those conditioned by socialism might have seen capitalism as immoral and unethical.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I gave it six months for the dust to settle, literally and metaphorically, then PVR'd. Job done; time to find a new purpose.

[mopardave]

Very pragmatic Fox3.......what was the mood in the immediate aftermath though?

MD :ok:

[Willard Whyte]

Capitalism is all about stealing from other people and exploitation to get rich.

Socialism is all about stealing from everyone and exploitation to keep them poor.

[Cows getting bigger]

The mood was very much "what now?" I don't recollect any significant changes other than there was an understanding that the party would now be coming to an end and there was a likelihood of cuts. Personally, I never saw draw-down as I was posted back to UK within a year.

At Gutersloh our station commander (Ian Stewart) stood up in the officers' mess and told us that he thought there would be a decade of uncertainty. Some of the ADIZ procedures changed but flying ops continued broadly as before. Indeed, I recollect flying one border patrol (something we did quite regularly) and noting how quickly holes were being bulldozed in the fence. Many of us spent time staring at Trabants which were percolating across the border.

I think that real change commenced when GW1 started as this moved the focus and made us think about something other than the IGB (people were actually getting shot down). This also slowed-down the cuts that Whitehall was considering. We staggered into the Balkans and subsequently GW2 without any clear direction from government. The Labour Party attempted to define the boundaries and managed to deliver SDR in 1998 (1 LS, 2MS or 4 SS) but this was largely irrelevant before the ink dried.

In hindsight Ian Stewart's ten years was way off the mark; some 25 years later there is still no steady state in terms of national strategy. What are we going to do with a big flat top? Is there really a need for so much SH (you can never have too much SH!)? What should the vehicle fleet look like? About the only 'no brainer' capabilities to retain are the Nuclear Deterrant, AD and MPA (:oops:)

[foxvc10]

I can remember thinking thank F*** for that I wont have to go to war.

Year later I was....

[Capetonian]

Capitalism is all about stealing from other people and exploitation to get rich.
Capitalism is about ensuring that those who work harder and educate their offspring prosper and do better than those who are parasitic.

Socialism and communism failed, miserably. What more proof do you want?
Those who espouse these admirable theories should see, as I have, first hand, the damage, death, misery, and destruction that they have caused.

[minigundiplomat]

I always thought the definition of communism was having nothing and wanting to share it.......

[ORAC]

WORLD IDEOLOGIES EXPLAINED BY REFERENCE TO COWS

FEUDALISM
You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.

SOCIALISM
You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn
with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The
government gives you a glass of milk.

FASCISM
You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of
them, and sells you the milk.

PURE COMMUNISM
You share two cows with your neighbors. You and your neighbors bicker
about who has the most "ability" and who has the most "need". Meanwhile,
no one works, no one gets any milk, and the cows drop dead of
starvation.

RUSSIAN COMMUNISM
You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government
takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it
on the black market.

PERESTROIKA
You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the Mafia takes
all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it on the
"free" market.

CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM
You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

DICTATORSHIP
You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.

PURE DEMOCRACY
You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the
milk.

BUREAUCRACY
You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed
them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then
it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the
drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the
missing cows.

CAPITALISM
You don't have any cows. The bank will not lend you money to buy cows,
because you don't have any cows to put up as collateral.

PURE ANARCHY
You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your
neighbors try to take the cows and kill you.

ANARCHO-CAPITALISM
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

SURREALISM
You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica
lessons.

OLYMPICS-ISM
You have two cows, one American, one Chinese. With the help of trilling
violins and state of the art montage photography, John Tesh narrates the
moving tale of how the American cow overcame the agony of growing up in
a suburb with (gasp) divorced parents, then mentions in passing that the
Chinese cow was beaten every day by a tyrannical farmer and watched its
parents butchered before its eyes. The American cow wins the
competition, severely spraining an udder in a gritty performance, and
gets a multi-million dollar contract to endorse Wheaties. The Chinese
cow is led out of the arena and shot by Chinese government officials,
though no one ever hears about it. McDonald's buys the meat and serves
it hot and fast at its Beijing restaurant.

AMERICAN CORPORATE CAPITALISM
Both cows are bloated with toxic steroids. They are set out to graze on
privatized public parks, release massive amounts of flatulence that
destroys the ozone layer, die from excess ultraviolet light, and are
processed into meat-like products that look great as a result of clever
and unprincipled marketing strategies. When you mortgage your
artificially devalued farm at high interest rates in order to buy meat,
you consume the poisoned material and develop terminal illnesses because
there is no health care plan to treat you. The corporate management uses
your purchase price to acquire THEIR meat from cows raised "naturally"
on tree-free rain forest land outside of the country where labor and
resources are cheap.

BRITISH REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
Both cows are mad

[Yellow Sun]

A few months after the event I was discussing the situation with a colleague. He summed it up very well:

"For 30 years I have known who the enemy was and where the threat lay, now I'm not at all sure. The one thing I am certain of though is that the world has become a much more dangerous place"

I think that he was right on the mark.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

At Nav School, on the shop floor it was business as normal, up the food chain there was a bit more consternation especially when they were talking of cutting the RAF to 57,000. We had some 90 instructors pushing through around 140 students per year. While you can halve the throughput you could not halve the instructor numbers.

Later, I was on a NATO committee and we set up NATO-wide simulation exercises. It was not until about 1993 that the need for these was questions.

Later still, at Coningsby we still practiced cold war fortress Britain scenarios with CAP manning, mass raids etc. There was a marked reluctance to look forward even after GW1. We (or rather the secret squirrels) hung on to the old war plans and TTW procedures years after the world changed and former WPC started to join NATO.

I suppose in some ways they were vindicated with the renewed Russian incursions into UK and NATO air space and the resumption of maritime ASW and ASuW for the Nimrod force.

But just how long do you hang on to obsolete documentation in case you can use it as a framework for the future? Units close, sqns disband, aircraft withdrawn, aircraft carriers scrapped and hardened buildings are chopped up.





Well it would have had we had a Nimrod force.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The immediate feeling was one of euphoria I recollect, mainly for the Germans who were now free, and partly because we'd recently been informed of a possible role of Central European AD with a life expectancy in the event of war of 24 minutes ("You'll be pleased to hear things have improved massively since the days of the 'twenty minuters' !")
Next day was...Will there be a coup d'etat in the USSR and a war anyway?

p.s.
Ireland
You have two cows....one of them's a horse!

[gr4techie]

Capitalism is about ensuring that those who work harder and educate their offspring prosper and do better than those who are parasitic.

Socialism and communism failed, miserably. What more proof do you want?
Those who espouse these admirable theories should see, as I have, first hand, the damage, death, misery, and destruction that they have caused.

If you are in a capitalist society, how can you work harder and educate your offspring if you get made redundant, there's no jobs available :eek:and the cost of university education is £9000 per year?

Norway is socialist....

Norwegians aren't exactly living in poverty and cueing up for food. Norway nationalised it's oil and gas, then decided to use renewable energy itself. So it can sell the oil and gas to other suckers who are dependant on it. This money pays for their healthcare, housing, education, pensions, helping with unemployment, etc etc.

[gr4techie]

Capitalism is about ensuring that those who work harder and educate their offspring prosper and do better than those who are parasitic.

Socialism and communism failed, miserably. What more proof do you want?
Those who espouse these admirable theories should see, as I have, first hand, the damage, death, misery, and destruction that they have caused.

If you are in a capitalist society, how can you work harder and educate your offspring if you get made redundant, there's no jobs available :eek:and the cost of university education is £9000 per year?

Norway is socialist....

Norwegians aren't exactly living in poverty and cueing up for food. Norway nationalised it's oil and gas, then decided to use renewable energy itself. So it can sell the oil and gas to other suckers who are dependant on it. This money pays for their healthcare, housing, education, pensions, helping with unemployment, etc etc.

You don't like socialism because you were told not to like it.

[racedo]

Norwegians aren't exactly living in poverty and cueing up for food. Norway nationalised it's oil and gas, then decided to use renewable energy itself. So it can sell the oil and gas to other suckers who are dependant on it. This money pays for their healthcare, housing, education, pensions, helping with unemployment, etc etc.

How come its suicide rate then is higher than Ireland, UK, Germany, Portugal etc if things are so great ?

[Pontius Navigator]

racedo, it's dark half the year, cold most of the year, and beer prices are outrageous. :)

[BEagle]

I asked a German chum about the way they dealt with things so quickly when the first rush of wheezing Trabbis came over the border to shock the greenie-weenies with their oily exhausts. All the travellers were welcomed and housed in transit camps whilst everything was sorted for them to move on.

Was this a prepared German plan? It was very efficient.

"Nein. But you see, ve Tchermans, ve know a sing or two about camps.....", he replied in a 'cartoon Gestapo' manner....;)

[Capetonian]

You don't like socialism because you were told not to like it. Really, well thanks for putting words into my mouth and telling me something I didn't know. What an absurd contention!

Norway is a benign type of socialism that works, it is not the hardline socialism that destroys lives and economies. Norway has rich resources, and a small and homogeneous population.

The idealogy is a dismal failure everywhere else.

[OldnDaft]

I was serving at Bruggen at the time on 17(F) - it changed things completely. Travel to Berlin for example was rubbish after the demise of the military train!

[Roadster280]

If you cannot get a job, then eventually you will become homeless, and die of starvation or sickness.

Of course in a civilized society, this will not be allowed to happen, and other peoples' income will be spent taking care of you.

That's all very well, but it makes you dependent upon others' charity. Not a place I would like to be. So I work hard to ensure that won't happen. If I were to lose my job, I would find another. I don't care if it is stacking shelves or flipping burgers. I would rather do that, and cut my cloth accordingly, than go cap-in-hand to others.

Socialism led to the atrocious conditions of the 70s and early 80s, before the cancer was cut out. I grew up with power cuts, mountains of rotting bin bags on playing fields, unburied dead, truly shocking industrial practices, constant strikes, the rest of the world laughing at the UK.

Then came Margaret, and the socialist principles were never heard of again. Blair and Brown are simply less-conservative Conservatives, lacking in fiscal and moral judgement.

[kintyred]

Well said Roadster,

I lived in the Soviet Union about 40 years ago. The abject poverty, crumbling infrastructure, frequent powercuts, unreliable water supply and lack of civil liberties will stick with me always. The phrase "better dead than red" would just about sum it up.

[MG23]

Norway is a benign type of socialism that works, it is not the hardline socialism that destroys lives and economies. Norway has rich resources, and a small and homogeneous population.

So long as you have lots of resources and a government that doesn't get in the way of the people who want to extract and sell those resources, the type of government doesn't matter much. The money will be rolling in either way.

According to Reuters today, Norwegian oil revenues declined nearly 20% last year, oil and gas production declined 9%, and they're going to have to invest twice as much in the future just to keep output flat:

Norway's Petoro to double spending just to keep oil output flat | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/26/petoro-results-idUSL6N0LV48V20140226)

At least they've saved much of their oil revenue, so they probably won't become the next Venezuela when it runs out.

Personally, I was still at university when the Berlin Wall came down, and was just glad I probably wouldn't end up a charred corpse in a nuclear war.

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Not sure if anybody has actually answered the OP's original question from a first-hand perspective so I will offer this:

Not long after the wall came down those of us fortunate to sit on Nuclear QRA at Laarbruch and Bruggen found that part of our commitment removed and the weapons were eventually withdrawn from RAFG.

That was both good and bad for we aircrew employed in that role!

Good, because it released us back onto the flying programme for a 24 hour period that had previously been denied us and -

Bad, because in QRA you could catch up with a hell of a lot of 'secondary duty niff naff', play uckers without the Boss breathing down your neck to do something constructive and watch porn movies on Deutsch 3 long into another boring night in the pen!

Happy Days

Bloggs
:E

[Capetonian]

So long as you have lots of resources and a government that doesn't get in the way of the people who want to extract and sell those resources, the type of government doesn't matter much.It does, because a 'socialist' government would do the exact opposite and would block free enterprise.

[NutLoose]

Personally, I was still at university when the Berlin Wall came down, and was just glad I probably wouldn't end up a charred corpse in a nuclear war.

You would have been alright, all you had to do was lie down facing the blast and tuck in all exposed flesh and it would pass right over the top of you, then it wouid come back over you again in the opposite direction.... And I should know because i still have my survive to fight book :p

Now.. having a poo surrounded by blister, blood or nerve agent, that was the tricky one...

[Haraka]

40 Years of our lives working up to fight the "Russian Communist Threat".
A large proportion weren't Russians,
very few were die hard Communists,
and perhaps the Threat was somewhat over stated.
.
,
,
,
or so I was told.........

[gr4techie]

With capitalism we are having to work longer and harder for less. Our money is no longer going as far as the cost of living keeps on going up. Capitalism is making only the very rich richer and everyone else worse off. I'm not saying the Soviet bloc was good, I'm saying capitalism isn't working too. Capitalism is also destroying the lives of the people who live in our very own countries and the economy isn't doing too good.

Capetonian, nationalising industry blocks bad practices, such as price rises without any reinvestment just to maximise someones profit. The reason why capitalist politicians allow such extortionate industry is because of the campaign donations they receive.

[Capetonian]

gr4techie : I respect your idealistic point of view, but I learnt a long time ago there is no point in arguing with drunks, women, or people who are opposed to capitalism.

....... and SWMBO is home and I'm on kitchen duty tonight despite only having one good hand at the moment, having lost an argument with some rocks and a river!

[Roadster280]

With capitalism we are having to work longer and harder for less. Our money is no longer going as far as the cost of living keeps on going up.

This is because previous governments spent the money on social programs. Worse than that, they borrowed even more money to do so. The current generation of taxpayers are having to find the money to service that debt, which is why you feel worse off.

It's not capitalism that is the issue, it is the Labour party.

If a farmer can produce a gallon of milk for say a pound, and he wants to make a living, he sells it for more than a pound. That makes him a capitalist.

If a mechanic can change the oil on a car for say twenty pounds, he's obviously going to charge more than that to make a profit. He's a capitalist too.

[deltahotel]

I lived in Berlin 66-68 (Dad was at Gatow). Years later I was on taceval at Lyneham, in the crewroom, clad in charcoal suit with all the kit and crap close to hand watching the first chunks of the wall being chipped off and seeing East Germans clambering all over it. Big sense of "so what's it all about now, Alfie?" filled the room.

I now spend a lot of time working in E Germany (Leipzig). There is still a lot of infrastructure work to do (city centre lovely, outskirts derelict) and most people over 30 don't speak English, the younguns do.

I work with a guy whose German father was captured by the Russians in WW2 aged 16, assimilated into Russia and became an academic. His son (my colleague) became a Mig fighter pilot. After the collapse of communism he qualified as a civvy pilot, moved to Germany and became (re-became?) a German citizen. But he does have a very Russian name.

I also work with another E German who was a tank commander in the E German army.

Funny old world.

[kintyred]

Ah Roadster,

If only your beautifully simple explanation were heard more often we wouldn't be in this mess! Not PC I know, but I'd love to see a comparison of IQs between Labour and Tory voters.

[gr4techie]

This is because previous governments spent the money on social programs. Worse than that, they borrowed even more money to do so. The current generation of taxpayers are having to find the money to service that debt, which is why you feel worse off.

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/html/Years/2013/March/images/BudgetGovernmentFinal2.png

[Roadster280]

Thanks for posting that, the key can be seen in 2009, where the budget deficit more than doubled, as the wheels came off in spectacular fashion. You can see where the Brown Chancellorship started throwing money away as far back as 2002, ending in the disaster of 2008-9.

The ConDem coalition has taken 3-4 years to reduce the deficit, and there is a way to go yet, but the trend is definitely in the right direction.

[Mickj3]

In 1989 I had been stationed in Germany for the previous two years. Tension had been building gradually all through the summer of 89 with people "escaping" from the East through Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Those of us who remembered the soviet reaction in 56 and 68 to any form of dissent were really concerned at what "Uncle Gorby's" response would be. We (my family) that summer, had been camping at an American forces camp site by Lake Chiemsee (between Munich and Saltsburg) and speaking to our American cousins at the camp site (mostly US army) we discovered that a number of them had been recalled so we decided that things being what they were we would head back to Bruggen. The E52/A8 was absolutely chocker with Trabants as far as Munich where they thinned out somewhat but all of the occupants were deliriously happy.

Back at Bruggen everything seemed to be normal but the word was that the normal Taceval season was going to be delayed for fear of being seen to aggravate the situation. The night the wall came down we stayed up all night watching the events on television wondering where it would end.

The following night our OC, who was leaving, held a little going away do for his officers and SNCOs. I remarked that within 10 years there would be no meaningful RAF presence in Germany and Bruggen would be the last to close (the golf course would ensure that). I was immediately rubbished by all present who couldn't see any drastic changes. Well I was wrong about the 10 years (it was 12 or 13) but right about the golf course. Incidentally, not all the "West" Germans that we knew were over the moon about reunification fearing higher taxes and a drop in living standards.

[DON T]

Just after the wall came down I visited Berlin with my wife and kids. They were really happy to get a bit of the wall with graffiti on it to take home. Mind it didn't take long for capitalism to catch on. Pieces of the wall were being sold as it was chipped away and then somebody had the bright idea to graffiti the east side as well so that they got double bubble.

[Bigt]

I was serving at a unit attached to Gatow on the night in question. As stated earlier East Germans who had access to cars were making their way to West Germany via Hungary and Czechoslovakia, this was of on going interest to my unit. The actual Thursday evenings event came as a surprise to all....I was watching in my MQ the BBC news via BFBS of history in the making just 10 miles away and knew nothing until the news!!!
The bus ride to work the next day was slow.....Trabbies every where slowing the already chaotic Berlin rush hour.....The following Monday the allied forces were going to hold their biggest exercise ever in the occupied city....the exercise was cancelled and most of us returned our freshly issued kit back to stores. Saturday afternoon my 2 sons and I drove off in search of wall......and did our bit for history

[racedo]

Thanks for posting that, the key can be seen in 2009, where the budget deficit more than doubled, as the wheels came off in spectacular fashion. You can see where the Brown Chancellorship started throwing money away as far back as 2002, ending in the disaster of 2008-9.

Think you will find that 2008-9 deficit was because Banks had to be bailed out to keep the country afloat.

What is noticeable is that Denis Healey brought the Net Debt as a % of GDP down and yet it didn't move further down by much for 10 years, then it jumped in mid nineties and under Gordon Brown it was lower than under post Thatchers Govts.

[mopardave]

Many thanks gents.........there have been some fascinating posts here. Particularly those of you who've shared your memories from the point of view of someone serving in hm forces at the time........and that is what I was after. Some of you have alluded to a link between increased world uncertainty and the wall coming down. I didn't want to say that.......but in actual fact, I've felt convinced for some time that it is no coincidence that since the wall came down, we've experienced unprecedented instability. I don't want to get into human rights or politics as such, but like it or not, we face a whole new set of problems now that we have free movement across European borders. The influence of the great Soviet "bear".....whilst posing the constant, and catastrophic threat of "MAD".......kept a lot of people in check. I for one would wind the clock back to more "stable" times.


I'll probably get shot with sh*t for saying that but I'm convinced things were better back then.
Keep 'em coming gents..........fascinating stuff.


MD:ok:

[racedo]

Remember walking out of Grand Canyon with a couple in 1990's, she was in Berlin on night it came down and her father had emigrated to the US to Michigan after the war and married a Michigan girl.........she just said he was in uniform during it.

No reason to ask what he did because was one of those things that was of no relevance, her Indian hubby said he used to tease her a bit as she made plain on 1st date, you smoke and you don't ever kiss me.
Remember just looked at her (she was gorgeous) and then him and said "yup, some decisions are just so easy to make" and then asking did she have a sister :O.

She remembered on the phone to her dad on the night and he blubbered quite a lot and saying over and over that "I don't believe it".

[mopardave]

Yup........with the events of the last few weeks in the Ukraine, me thinks the Berlin wall wasn't such a bad thing.......unless of course you were the wrong side of it!