DXB in Fog

[Airmann]

Don't work for EK or fly out of DXB much, so excuse me if this is a stupid question, but why did DXB have to be single runway operations this morning during the fog? Is this normal during Low vis?

[Old King Coal]

Amongst other reasons, it's because only R12L / R30R is provided for approaches below CAT 1 minima, and that the runways are too close to one another to allow for parallel runway operations (regardless of the approach category), and issues with keeping the ILS's protected areas clear from interference caused by aircraft crossing runways and / or waiting for departure, etc.

[ulugbek-pilot]

Case closed

[SOPS]

It's a mess, huge delays, 652 MLE CMB cancelled after an 7 hour delay. Bring on single runway ops.

[Emma Royds]

Today DNATA stood for the following:

Decisions
Normally
Achieve
Total
Anxiousness

Whoever was on 131.6 today needs to be taken out and shot - no effort to give crew any vague idea of when a tug would be made available. It's not rocket science and I am sure a rough ballpark would keep most of us happy. This however did bring a smile to my face:

DNATA: "Ah yes captain.... we will send a tug when we are advised from ATC that you are ready."
EK Driver: "For ATC to consider that we are ready, we need a tug."

[Flying Mechanic]

I thought is was:

Does
Nothing
At
The
Airport!

[Airmann]

Thanks for that, it's what I thought. Ya it was a complete and total **** show. 5 hour delay at the gate and another 50 minutes during taxi.

I don't know what it was like for those requesting push and start to be told you are number 71 please stand-by.

The thing I don't understand is that in this situation why couldn't there be more coordination between ATC and all parties involved to delay boarding and keep passengers in the terminal rather than on the aircraft. DNATA seem least interested of all to coordinate.

[Old King Coal]

I've long held the belief that DNATA seemingly operate via some sort of 'script', i.e. that for each departure they have a pre-defined set of instructions wherein each element is commenced in accordance with the number of minutes allocated (no doubt contractually so) to the dispatching of the aircraft.

E.g. if one is doing a 4x sector day and one arrives back in Dubai at the end of sector #2 but are running, say, 10 minutes late... no matter how fast yourself & crew go at it wrt, getting the aircraft ready for its subsequent departure (i.e. you manage to catch-up those 10 minutes), you will inevitably find yourself waiting for passengers for the exact same amount of time that you arrived late on-blocks, and which probably accounts for their almost maniacal desire to know ones 'on-blocks' time, because it's based upon that time when their countdown clock starts ticking.

Basically, if your turn-around is budgeted to take one hour, then DNATA will take precisely that, and (for them at least) thinking outside the box and / or being pro-active (i.e. operating outside of their standard script) is probably not encouraged.

Needless to say, any sort of hiccup in the process, e.g. due to mother nature dropping some fog into the equation, and DNATA's 'script' has no flex within it for any sort of ad-libbing.

Just my $0.02

[Trackdiamond]

I wonder...if Fog and runway closure could lead to such unprecedented operational disruption..what is the likely scenario folowing an Airport disasater of sort?

[Guy D'ageradar]

I wonder...if Fog and runway closure could lead to such unprecedented operational disruption..what is the likely scenario folowing an Airport disasater of sort?

Quite simple. Closed.

Apart from the obvious limitations to the capabilities of the airport fire / rescue services, it can be guaranteed that various rubber-neckers would be out for a look - including many members of the airport staff, particularly those of a certain ethnicity who are permitted access in their personal land cruiser/lexus/merc every day. BOTH runways closed for the duration.

Take note all those that plan the other runway as the alternate! :ok:

[flareflyer]

Get the ready for the extra miles........ :D:E:}

[ironbutt57]

OKC....watch the series on Discovery Channel RE: Dubai Airport...your assessment is absolutely spot-on:ok:

[CAT3A]

24hrs after the fog and was still a mess this morning

[Tight Seat]

Just out of interest , the prep work for the 80 day runway work is rumoured to be 2 weeks behind already. Fog or no fog single runway ops is going to be 'fun' .

[Desdihold]

A real cost is that off forwarding the bags from the delayed flights.
I know of some flights that departed yesterday with anything from 100 to 200 bags missing.
It will take days for EK to forward all the bags to the various out stations and then they will have to pay for those bags to be delivered to someones doorstep.

My reference to yesterday relates to 24 hrs after the fog.

[Dxbfog]

As a result of this fog event, the key players for traffic into and out of DXB have agreed to a nightly conference call at 11pm to discuss relevant matters and strategies to minimise disruption as much as possible. The involved parties are DXB airports, Major airlines, ATC, MET and the CAAs.

Points of note are stands available, available diversion airports and capacities, ATC capacity, Airline key priority aircraft, Arrival rates and MET forecasts and observations.

The call will happen nightly as above at 11pm and a timeline for future calls established based on threat levels of weather, traffic or other. The night following the event, there was a 45 minute interval throughout the night of calls as the conditions were predicted to be similar. MET in particular were excellent with their predictions and real time advice.

The event did not reoccur but the planning was certainly in place had it been different.

In this region, nothing similar has ever been in place and it will certainly be the first step in a coordinated effort in at least keeping everyone informed as to what to expect and what is actually happening to react accordingly.

[Capt Groper]

These situations will occur, whilst they operate only one RWY in LVOPS.

What's needed is DWC with 4 RWYs.
Wait for the cargo traveling by road from DWC to DXB. Emirates road will look like one long freight train.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

There is a perfectly good DUBAI airport, a few whatevers south, ( not my idea of an airport).
If a bit of a stretch but this airport has been availabe to cover the other aiport closure, but perhaps I am not seeing the problem clearly. Silly me.

Glf

[donpizmeov]

We knew there was an easy answer. Why hadn't it been done before. All you need is a phone call at 11pm. Smooth sailing awaits all now. No longer will we be told that no airports are accepting diversions. And that approach times are some 90 min in the future.
I wonder if this call comes with a warm cup of coco and ends with "you hang up" "no you hang up".

The Don

[glofish]

the key players for traffic into and out of DXB have agreed to a nightly conference call at 11pm to discuss relevant matters and strategies to minimise disruption

did no one discuss that "before"???

.... MET in particular were excellent with their predictions and real time advice (the second night. edit.contr.)

were the predictions not sufficiently accurate "before"?

The event did not reoccur but the planning was certainly in place had it been different.

Wow. That's called learning. Did that not happen "before"?

In this region, nothing similar has ever been in place and it will certainly be the first step in a coordinated effort


At least they seem to admit that "before" some leaders have failed miserably.
Now at least i know the meaning of Hello Tomorrow: It means the day after "before". :ugh:

[Machspeed]

We waited 3 hours for a tug for pushback. While the 380 beside us had a tug connected but was waiting on a new crew since the original crew timed out. Asking them to move the tug to us was way too far out of the box since that flight was suppose to depart before us.

ATC was telling us that they were ready for us but we couldn't get DNATA to understand.

DNATA told us that we would get a tug after ATC releases other airplanes that were waiting for pushback first. Even if those flights were not ready yet.

[mhk77]

That morning was comfortably the most testing of my ATC career. There seemed to be far too many cooks getting involved.

Once the fog started to lift, we were given a list from Emirates telling us which aircraft were ready on stand with tugs attached The first one I called for push on the list.....didn't have a tug.....! Shambolic.

The GMP frequency was impossible to control because as soon as there was any gap in the frequency, x number of calls come through asking for position in the queue. On top of that Emirates were busy refiling flight plans for god knows what reason, meaning we had duplicate strips for a significant number of flights who already have active plans becauae they had been sat in the ready bay for x hours.

I know that only a tiny minority of EK pilots read these forums but if those who do could spread the word to their brethren that in situations like the other day, asking for position in the queue is so far down the list in our priorities that a call like that only exacerbates a ridiculous situation. There were simply far too many aircraft and strips for us to give any semblence of a position in the queue.

And please don't be fooled into thinking that just because there is momentary silence on the frequency, it means we are sat in the tower twiddling our thumbs with our feet up. None of the co-ordination we do is done via the radio, its done directly between 2 atcos or via a telephone line that the pilots can't hear. And believe me, on that morning the co-ordination didn't stop once the fog started lifting.

I say it constantly, but it would be really good to see some EK pilots up in the tower for liaison visits so you can see exactly how we operate and with the restrictions we face. But unfortunately it just doesn't seem to be something that is promoted fron your side as something that is available to you.

[Curry Goat]

Mhk77.

I think most of us are fully aware that you guys have your hands full, and then some, in cases like we saw this weekend. Unfortunately, you guys are our only source of information regarding delays etc. We also have a fair amount of coordination to do (dealing with pax, crew, ground handlers, company, fuelers,etc.) in an attempt to eventually get off the gate, and any hint on the amount of the delay is very helpful to us.

Some ground controllers are quite frank with their responses, giving a minimum delay as well as the number in the queue and even giving periodic announcements to all A/C updating the expected delays. This I find very helpful indeed, in dealing with our bits. In spite of how busy you guys are, I suspect that if you can pass on as much pertinent information to us as possible, you would receive a lot less interruptions, enabling you to do your bits.

My 2 cents

[falconeasydriver]

What Curry Goat said, the big issue MHK77 is that we have up to 500 or so souls with individual fears, faults and prejudices' whom all have places they'd rather be, and to placate and manage that requires information, accurate and valid being the best kind.
I'm certain that we all appreciate the clusterf**k that occurred on saturday and part of that is learning what could be done better.
From our perspective, I'm on your side, the constant calls, interruptions and queries do nothing to help anyone, far better IMHO to broadcast on the ground/delivery freq every 10-15min an update of the situation (like they do at LHR/LGW/JFK/MIA etc etc)
From our end, I'm afraid to say, we reap what we sow, if the management mentality is to micro-manage and encourage a punitive worker drone culture then the result will be identical the next time, and the next time, and the next time.
I feel sorry for the passengers inconvenienced and the front of shop staff who had to bear the brunt of some rather poor decision making.
Machspeeds' experience highlights a very real cultural limitation with how things are presently done.

[Eau de Boeing]

mhk77 check your PM's..

Well at least TCAS's e-mail has put us all at ease that it won't ever happen again........

I won't even discuss how much extra fuel we were given to "protect the hub" the following day and what we actually landed with, nothing like a knee-jerk reaction after the horse has bolted.

[mhk77]

Hi Curry and falcon,

I totally understand your point of view regarding passengers etc.

However, with the best will in the world, it was literally impossible to get a word in edgeways. Any small gaps on delivery that we were able to utilise were better spent transferring aircraft to GMC for push. It was really that congested. Think SZR on New Years Eve around the Burj Khalifa and you're halfway there :-)

[mhk77]

Eau de....

checked and replied :ok:

[glofish]

Just put on the ATIS the famous:

"Don't call us, we will call you"!

Information might be crucial for passenger and crew comfort, but has little to do on ATC radio. Give the slot times to the company and shove the information part down their throats. The company then can send us ACARS with our slot or position in the queue. They are always sooo paranoid about total control, so let them assume it!

Just keep the ATC frequencies quiet and open for the real start-up and taxi clearances. That's what Air Traffic Control is about, after all.

[nakbin330]

Bloody marvellous idea Glofish.

[Eau de Boeing]

Good idea slowfish

There is probably a new SVP position there in the making!


:ok:

[flaphandlemover]

@glo Svp Fog controler... Callsign fogmaster1

[Eau de Boeing]

How about

Fog
Understanding
Chaos
Talking to
ATC
Reducing
Delays

Callsign "Fuctard Operations".....

Or

Pro-actively
Reducing
Operational
Factors
In
Times of

Serious
Hazardous
Atmospheric
Regimes
Expeditor

Callsign "Profit Share Ops"

[The Outlaw]

MHK77

I agree that a tour of the ATC would serve heighten the awareness. However it is so ridiculously difficult to get the permission required from both sides plus all the ID copies, NOC's, emails and stamps of approvals etc. I tried to tour OMDW once a few years ago and gave up because of the sheer stupidity and complication of the process.

Perhaps TCAS could spearhead a program whereby pilots could be taken on a tour of ATC on their ground school days instead of wasting everyones time with what amounts to be useless drivel and blatant lies at the wash-ups...mind you then he wouldn't have time to issue such well thought out emails.

"There's nothing like a nice piece of Hickory" ~ Clint Eastwood-circa 1985

[BDiONU]

I agree that a tour of the ATC would serve heighten the awareness. However it is so ridiculously difficult to get the permission required from both sides plus all the ID copies, NOC's, emails and stamps of approvals etc.You guys all have DA Airport ID's right? That's all you need plus a guide.
You also now have an ATC Specialist Section in EK HQ, in Hub Ops who you can talk to about ATC matters.

[The Outlaw]

BDiONU,

Its not quite that easy. When I tried, I needed written permission from high up in ATC, a NOC from flight operations, certified true copies of my UAE ATPL and airline ID and a letter from the police (I guess that speeding ticket was a real problem). I have toured an active military installation with less complication.

Its like everything else in this place...too many chiefs and too many Indians !

Banana Air has it right...just another indian chief with a title taking up space in costa coffee and the parking garage.

[10 DME ARC]

ATC Visit like BDiONU said you all have the ID to get airside and would just take just a phone call ahead to arrange tour, you or your airline could do!! I am approach and when we were DXB based, DXB/SHJ/MIN/DWC approach is done from new centre at DWC for people not in the know, we had pilots who would just pop in on the off chance plus EK used to have regular visits not so now!!:uhoh:

[BDiONU]

"ATC Specialist Section in EK HQ"
Announcing the above position that has been created which will make everything better in future.
The ATC Specialist will be based in the Big Giant Head alongside The Fog Is Coming Specialist, The Single Runway Operations Specialist, <snip>
Problem solved……….Not quite problem solved but if you'd prefer things to continue as they are now, with no new assistance to try and solve problems then knock yourself out.
From my personal perspective and experience the largest drawback at DXB is lack of A-CDM, in particular a tool fit for that purpose. The current system is at least 15 years old and was up for replacement 5 years ago. Only in the tendering stages now, so quite some time until it replaces UFIS. When it does you will begin to see large scale improvements in information flow, both ways.

[BDiONU]

ATC Visit like BDiONU said you all have the ID to get airside and would just take just a phone call ahead to arrange tour, you or your airline could do!! Yup, really is that simple and ATC do love to have their customers visit, honest!

[flyandbike]

I raised on another thread allready the question about that new GMC feature called follow-the-greens which is (going) in operation at DXB.
Why didn't DXB ATC use it that day? Do EK crews know about it ?
It's said to be a great step forward in LVO to avoid slow-go and traffic jams!
I'm looking forward to take a closer look at the World ATM Congress at Madrid next week,
Maybe DXB customers/frequent users should do that as well?

[thatwasclose]

Only have 9 days off. Will not make ATC visit in march.

[BDiONU]

You think it wouldnt be used in LVO if it worked, thats one of its primary purposes??? Allied to this is the upgrade of the Southern runway to CAT IIIB, it's only CAT I currently, which is one reason it's closed during LVO. We are working on continuing dependant runway operations during LVO's, irrespective of the AFLCMS upgrade.

[H.El.Shafey]

it's only CAT I currently, which is one reason it's closed during LVO.

my understanding is that CAT I. RUNWAY could be used for departure
as long as there is RVR, runway edge lights, center lights, and markings?

[checcker10]

What's all the fuss about.
I've been here 'a while' and it happens every year. Same,Same Capt wobble wooble!

One day, big disaster, A.F.U,lots of steam from the HQ ,committees ,meetings,conference calls,special SVP position blah blah, then they somehow they forget till next year.
And blow me down, same thing happens and hey presto the fog comes along.
If the drivers and ATC made this repetitive mistake year after year they'd be long gone.
Just each year seems worse, cause ,guess what, lots more planes, no where to park, land blah blah.
Only thing to solve this, finish that place down the road and let's all shift there.

If you skate on thin ice EK then eventually you'll fall thru!

Just keep an eye on OMAA forcast. More reliable than our 24 late DXB one!

[Fromagio]

If it's foggy in Birmingham doesn't mean it'll be foggy at Heathrow so using OMAA as an indicator for fog in OMDB is not going to be accurate.
I've been told that OMDW has been built in an area that suffers from the most occurrences of fog in the whole of the UAE!! Now why doesn't that surprise me!!?!

[Gulfstreamaviator]

It runs up the coast and can be most spectacular to watch, late evening, as you drive SZR from AA to the North.

The topo between BHX and LHR are quite different, and many obstructions in the way.

glf

[BDiONU]

my understanding is that CAT I. RUNWAY could be used for departure as long as there is RVR, runway edge lights, center lights, and markings?But the aerodrome manoeuvring area has no procedures, lighting, entry/exit protection, stopbars etc. for dependant runway operations. Since the tenerife and other incidents regulators are very twitchy about crossing live runways during LVOs. The work is being done to get to dependant runways, but not likely to be ready until next fog season.

[Airmann]

I've been told that OMDW has been built in an area that suffers from the most occurrences of fog in the whole of the UAE!! Now why doesn't that surprise me!!?!

That night before the fog rolled into DXB, I was shocked at seeing that DBW was already 100m in FG while DXB was still reporting 8K+ . DXB didn't see the fog until around 2-3 hours later


METAR OMDW 211900Z 14003KT 110V170 2500 HZ NSC 17/16 Q1019
BECMG 1500 BR=
METAR OMDW 212000Z 18003KT 160V220 0800 R12/P2000N FG BKN001
17/15 Q1019 BECMG 0100 VV///
METAR OMDW 212100Z 18003KT 0300 R12/0450V1000 FG VV005 15/14
Q1019 TEMPO 0100 VV///=

METAR OMDB 212300Z VRB02KT 5000 1000E R30L/P2000N BCFG NSC
18/16 Q1017 BECMG 0500 FG VV///=
METAR OMDB 220000Z 17002KT 1500 0600E R30L/P2000N BCFG FEW001
17/16 Q1017 BECMG 0500 FG VV///=
METAR OMDB 220100Z 19005KT 0100 R30L/0250 FG VV/// 16/15
Q1017 NOSIG=

[JAARule]

It runs up the coast and can be most spectacular to watch


Fog? Spectacular?? I must be missing something. Probably quite a lot.


As long as YOU are landed and headed to bed I really don't know why anyone could give a fog's fat ass what else happens around here, weather-wise, or anything else.

[Plazbot]

Come on bro, we had The Stones last week and Clapton next week. You've gotta lighten up.

[InnocentBystander]

Flyandbike. Because The 'follow the greens' is not operational......

You think it wouldnt be used in LVO if it worked, thats one of its primary purposes??? Do you think people sit there thinking, 'hey that would be good, we should use that, cant be bothered though'???

And its only a very small part of the problem at DXB, theres also stand management, DNATA, bay allocation, airspace restrictions, passenger transfer delays etc etc etc

And remember that pilots almost always think that everybody is stupid except themselves. That's why pilots are the best airline executives; obviously. ;)

[Gulfstreamaviator]

From a hig building on SZR, with the lights glowing, as the fog rolls up SZR, YES it is impressive.
Glf

[JAARule]

The Stones - great act and I love their stuff but are they actually performing any of their art or is it "weekend at Bernies" with the support crew doing the performing and their arm waving via some wires??

[Plazbot]

Did you go mate? If not, get yourself to Clapton. MSG me and we will get a beer.

[H.El.Shafey]

what about the follow me cars,can they not arrange this mystery

[Kiwikid]

Fog in the forecast tonight. Wonder if anyone has learnt anything.

[falconeasydriver]

Roll up roll in, let the fun and games begin...:ugh::hmm:


OMDB 021300Z 27014KT 240V300 CAVOK 23/13 Q1013 NOSIG
TAF OMDB 021056Z 0212/0318 27015KT CAVOK
BECMG 0218/0220 18005KT
PROB40 0222/0305 3000 BR BKN008
PROB30 0300/0304 0100 FG VV///
BECMG 0308/0310 33010KT
BECMG 0316/0318 05005KT

OMDW 021300Z 28014KT CAVOK 23/14 Q1014 NOSIG
TAF OMDW 021056Z 0212/0318 29015KT CAVOK
BECMG 0218/0220 18005KT
PROB30 0222/0305 0100 FG VV///
BECMG 0308/0310 32010KT
BECMG 0316/0318 07005KT

OMAA 021300Z 29012KT CAVOK 23/14 Q1013 A2993 NOSIG
TAF OMAA 021100Z 0212/0318 32014KT 8000 NSC
BECMG 0216/0218 26005KT
BECMG 0222/0224 VRB02KT 4000 HZ
PROB30 0301/0304 1500 BR
FM030500 28008KT CAVOK
BECMG 0307/0309 32012KT

OMAL 021300Z 30015KT CAVOK 27/09 Q1014 A2996 NOSIG
TAF OMAL 021100Z 0212/0318 24006KT CAVOK
BECMG 0217/0219 VRB02KT 4000 HZ NSC
PROB40 0300/0304 17004KT 0200 FG VV///
FM030400 10007KT CAVOK
BECMG 0306/0308 30011KT

OOMS 021250Z 08004KT 030V110 9999 SCT020 BKN200 27/11 Q1012 NOSIG
TAF OOMS 0212/0318 01011KT CAVOK
TEMPO 0217/0306 VRB02T 9000 NSC

[BDiONU]

what about the follow me cars,can they not arrange this mysteryHow many vehicles, how many fully trained staff to drive on the manoeuvring area, how does ATC control them all as well as all the aircraft on frequency, what do they all do on the 360 days a year with no fog?
Bit like the UK and it's unpreparedness for snow.

[Panther 88]

Look, it's part of the master plan to find a valid reason NOT to have a profit share this year. In the past, they've blamed it on a volcano, so why not fog this year. "We wanted to give you eight weeks, but with the major disruption of three or four days of the operation out of a year, we just don't see how a profit share is possible....sorry". :=

[SOPS]

How was it this morning?

[Plazbot]

Foggy...........

[Thridle Op Des]

I just wish DXB & UAE would talk more, declaring an 'indefinite' delay is particularly unhelpful, then shifting the EATs up an down the timeline like certain underware is equally problematic when managing a diversion strategy.

[10 DME ARC]

Plazbot well said because of commercial constraints we cannot set a landing rate because we think its going to get bad, especially as in the case of this morning the met man kept saying its not going to happen! So when as this morning we have multiple go arounds and a large number of aircraft already left the holds in the TMA, we cannot straight away and declare a time we will be accepting more aircraft as you don't know how long LVO's will take to implement and how long to clear back log! We also have variables like EK saying certain aircraft has to have priority over other EK's and aircraft getting a slot but then diverting as IRVR went down too much!! It also doesn't help calling arrivals frequency from the stack bugging us for a time!!
The early morning arrival wave is timed just when fog arrives sorry......

[sheiken around]

Interesting...b'cos, early on in the fog at Bubin, arriving aircraft were issued EAT's ... which were summarily rescinded, due to the Arrivals Managers' computer "crashing" due to the inordinate number of arrivals at DXB at that time...

[liffy2A]

Any reason for the ATIS not being updated and UAE telling people they didn't know when arrivals would start again for 30 minutes? We all know how much fuel we are happy with diverting but I found the lack of info especially not being able to get a RVR pretty mad. Out of interest why is there a runway block put in ? surely it's better to keep arrivals going and hold aircraft on stand even if arrivals have to waiting for a gate.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Must have been fun with fog in OMAA and the airport going tech...
BTW, it is not unusual for OMDB and OMAA to get fog at the same time.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Was RAK able to offer parking. landing slots.???? glf

[Rotaiva]

Hey PLAZBOT, check your PM's..

[Thridle Op Des]

Plazbot and 10DME, please don't get me wrong, the problem we have is information, or absence thereof. As indicated before we are out there gobbling 10 tonnes an hour in the BUBIN or DESDI hold trying to predict the future of our airframe and an ATIS which says it's not LVOs. We then get told 'indefinite delay', now how do we manage our diversion strategy? This is not a pop at your brilliant work in ATC, we know you keep this system going despite best efforts from other parties to complicate issues. I cannot think of any major international destination where two holds (three if we can find the new one near Al Ain) serving three destinations. LHR has four for its self for goodness sake. We are all dreading the single runway gig since we know the current structural limitations. We just need appropriate information to help us predict to some degree how this will pan out even in the next few minutes. I absolutely agree that our company should be at the forefront of telling us whats going on with a general ACARS message as to the strategy.

[sheiken around]

Interesting..the exact words used at approx. 620am local DXB, were:

"All aircraft holding at Bubin, standby for new EAT's because the arrivals managers computer at DXB is unable to keep up with the volume of arrivals and has failed"

The next communication was a readout of new EAT's in excess of 1 hour later that the previous EAT's. This was communicated from UAE..not DXB arrivals.

[ruserious]

Plazbot, thanks for taking the time to explain things from the other side of the Mic, much apreciated

[Airmann]

Any reason why neither the ATIS nor ATC at DXB ever declared LVP in force even after vis was at 100m (feb 22 incident). Some operators require this blurb in order for their crews to operate in LV conditions.

[glofish]

We also have variables like EK saying certain aircraft has to have priority over other EK's

@10 DME

Can you confirm this is happening and accepted from ATC?????

It would be very discomforting and not acceptable.

I truly believe that coming into the TMA should give you the sequence that determines your EAT. As you and Plazbot describe, there are very many factors that can influence the EAT, but it should be shifting everybody and not individual airframes to the company's liking.
Where would we go with that if it was really true?
Like Fatboys first, because they have a drinking problem? Then 345s, then John Deers, finally the Lighttwin?
Or maybe the flights with VVIP first, then VIP, then SAMIP (self appointed more important persons)?

HTF are we supposed to manage our strategies?

Tell me that it is not true, please!:uhoh:

[sharpshooter41]

I know that people on the ground (UAE/Dubai) are doing an excellent job but would really appreciate if under such circumstances, the smaller planes 737/320 are given some sort of priority. After all the holding fuel they carry is pretty limited and we all know how expensive/ inconvenient a diversion is.

[BDiONU]

"All aircraft holding at Bubin, standby for new EAT's because the arrivals managers computer at DXB is unable to keep up with the volume of arrivals and has failed"Hhhmmm the AMAN system is based in AD at the Sheik Zayed Centre, it's their equipment. DXB only has a feed from it.

[serf]

I guess lots of unhappy pax at OMAL, a Captain asked for security to be sent to his aircraft in mid afternoon.

[10 DME ARC]

glofish - no like plazbot said ACC didn't change the order the other night but I have seen it done on the request of EK and only if it doesn't effect any one but EK.
J grouping really does help and I was the planner who asked and got the six J together but ACC did all the work grouping them. In the not too distant future vortex grouping with be added to the AMAN.
Reading here its amazing the pilots who don't know that ACC control the holds, DESDI, BUBIN and RASKO not DXB! ACC in shed near OMAA, DXB APP in shed under DWC VCR!!

[BlueSkye]

glofish, I can categorically state that UAE ACC/Sheikh Zayed Center do not give priority to any aircraft based on that aircraft company's request. As with most things UAE there is a small amount of politics involved. UAE ACC is run by the GCAA which is a Federal Authority of the UAE in which all seven emirates have representation. The GCAA is therefore kinda autonomous and answers to no one but the regulator. They fall pretty much outside the sphere of influence of Emirates, Flydubai, Air Arabia, The National Carrier et al when it comes to day to day operations. It has almost become a source of pride to tell certain representatives of certain airlines to stuff off when they come with those requests.

[glofish]

10 DME, Plazbot and BlueSkye

Thanks guys, the quote might have been misleading. Changing sequence for some company reasons would be unacceptable.

Changing sequence for efficiency might make sense, as long as it involves your stated one position and 2 mins, but 7 mins would start pinching a bit, if you were issued an earlier EAT and a little short of fuel.

It points however to a problem which is very virulent in the DXB airspace: Wake turbulence category separation. With the arrival of the Fatboy a new problem arose. Especially annoying is the looooong wait of a Flydubai lightweight behind a 380. I know from a ATC friend that you guys categorically deny that the hourly rate went down with the arrival of the Fatboy, but it seems to us out there at the threshold that it effectively did.

AS FD now splits its operation for the runway closure, i don't know what hampers the complete shift to DWC. It would only be beneficial for everyone.

[BigGeordie]

It wouldn't benefit passengers connecting from Fly Dubai to EK or vice versa.

[glofish]

Maybe, however i bet the percentage of passengers connecting between the two is negligible.

[flyandbike]

Got this from "JennyPolar" whilst discussing 'follow-the-greens' on the ATC-forum
Anybody here who'd like to comment?
Need some good info as I'll have to work on that subject more intensively
Thanks

[helen-damnation]

Can't see the problem with EK or any other company asking ATC to prioritise arrivals IF it could be done. BIG if!

100 short connections made from one flight against 20 from another makes good sense. In reality, we know it couldn't work here at the moment.

BA certainly used to do it in LHR.