Switch pilots during flight?

[Daniel54n]

If switching pilots in a small GA airplane, can the legal responsibility also be transferred? Or can the PIC of a flight only be one person?

And if switching pilots would log their respective time as acting pilot, would such log entries be valid? One with 0 landings and not actually flying the whole route logged.

If regulations differ between jurisdictions, I'm mostly interested in the EASA rules.

[Genghis the Engineer]

So long as both are qualified and current to fly it as PiC, perfectly legitimate.

G

[Pace]

yes as G states perfectly legal! You don't have to clamber over each other unless the pilot is female with a very short skirt :ok:
You can P1 from either side with agreement. The only problem is in the event of an accident the PI or captain is usually in the left seat so you may have more problems convincing the insurance company!

Pace

[thing]

Don't know about claiming the time though. I often hand over on a long leg for a break but claim all the time as I'm still Pi/c. Likewise if I'm in the right seat I might spell my mate who who is Pi/c but I don't claim anything for it.

[Whopity]

Don't know about claiming the time though. You deceide who is PIC and log it accordingly. It is entirely up to you. So long as you don't both claim the hours it is in accordance with Article 79.

[Daniel54n]

Thanks for the replies!

So, two pilots can't log half of the time each, blocking on or off in mid-air? Like (I imagine) a relief pilot would do on an airliner?

In my specific case, me and a fellow student each flew half of the leg as students (dual). So the instructor was PIC and didn't switch, if this matters.

[Mach Jump]

Daniel.

As Whopity says, as long as only one person claims the time, you can change over in flight as you like.

You put the Departure and Arrival times in your logbook, but only the time you actually spent performing the duties claimed in the appropriate columns, eg. P1, Pu/t, etc.

MJ:ok:

[Maoraigh1]

In my specific case, me and a fellow student each flew half of the leg as students (dual). So the instructor was PIC and didn't switch, if this matters.

What were the seating arrangements?

[BullHughes]

Mmm... Surely in a Single Pilot Aeroplane the only way it is possible to act as PIC from the right hand seat is if you hold an Instructor Rating? Ive never heard this discussed. Has anyone read this in any concrete document?

So as a PPL I can decide to fly solo from the right hand seat just for the hell of it?

Perhaps trip sharing with pretty girls wearing short skirts is the way to go!

[Pace]

You can fly right seat single pilot if you so wish in a single pilot aircraft with only you on board. In that case there would be no question as to who was PIC.

I have heard of flights with an instructor where one student has been observing, Where they have changed mid flight and the other student records the second portion of the flight.

as stated the only legal problem would be in the event of an incident where an insurance claim was made! then there maybe a question on who of the two actual qualified pilots was PIC as normally not LEGALLY the left seat is the PIC seat.

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

Mmm... Surely in a Single Pilot Aeroplane the only way it is possible to act as PIC from the right hand seat is if you hold an Instructor Rating? Ive never heard this discussed. Has anyone read this in any concrete document?

So as a PPL I can decide to fly solo from the right hand seat just for the hell of it?

Perhaps trip sharing with pretty girls wearing short skirts is the way to go!

PiC can sit where (s) he likes. They are responsible for every aspect of the conduct of the fkight. Where they sit to achieve that is entirely their business, and that of the aircraft operator and whatever rules they choose to apply.

It may well be a bad idea to try flying take-offs and landings from the right hand seat if not trained to do so, but not illegal.

I would say from a good airmanship viewpoint make quite sure before flight that you both understand who will be captain when and take care not to tramp over each other. But, again that is good practice, not law.


G

[multycpl]

I agree, flying from the right seat is ok but training is a must for takeoff and landing. Its a completely different view.

[gooddaysir]

i wonder whose idea it was originally to establish the PIC seat is the left seat? I mean most vintage planes even up to the 1930s were one in front of the other rather than side to side.


Id much prefer to sit on the right, with all my instruments etc set up for the solo pilot sitting on the right

[Level Attitude]

PiC can sit where (s) he likesExcept during Take Off and Landing when they must ensure a pilot is
at the controls - as only one pilot possible (in single pilot operations)
that means the PIC must be at the controls for these phases of flight.
At other times they could even be in the back seat whist their
passengers fly the plane.

Sitting in L seat or R seat is similar to driving a L hand vs a R hand
car with, perhaps, the different perspectives being more important in
aircraft. Additionally usually only one (usually left) seat has a full
set of instruments "easily" visible - something else to get used to if
flying from the other seat the first few times.

I would say from a good airmanship viewpoint make quite sure
before flight that you both understand who will be captain when
and take care not to tramp over each other. But, again that
is good practice, not law.From a good airmanship viewpoint understand that the switch may not
occur as planned - nor, even, as you wished:

Remember what "In Command" means as PIC.

eg A Flight is planned A to C, via B where PIC is due to change over.
At B the original PIC is perfectly entitled, if they wish, to say that they
are remaining as PIC and the original passenger cannot insist on
anything - they are a passenger and must obey the lawful commands
of the PIC.

Conversely a PIC cannot just decide that they no longer want to be.
They can only hand over command to a qualified person who is willing
to accept the responsibility.
eg With weather deteriorating the Pax may decline the offer to become
PIC, and the original PIC must be prepared to continue the flight.

For this reason I think it is wrong, and probably illegal, for a PIC to plan,
or continue, a flight in to possible conditions (Wx, Night, etc) for which
they are not qualified but their Pax is. There is no guarantee that the Pax
would be able and willing to become PIC when required - and the Pax has
no responsibility whatsoever to ensure that they are.

The above are legality considerations, generally any splitting of PIC time
goes without a hitch - but my personal preference is to change over PIC
on the ground.

[Pace]

I agree, flying from the right seat is ok but training is a must for takeoff and landing. Its a completely different view.


It is a good idea to learn to land from the right instructors do quite often!
If you ever move into the MC invironment the pilot flying is the handling pilot while the Captain remains the PIC.
The FO sits right seat can usually have autopilot control put to his side of the aircraft as well as identical instrument displays!
Airlines fly leg about if the Captain deems the weather as suitable for the FO!
In that situation the FO becomes handling pilot takes off and lands from the right
And the Caprain takes over the FO duties but always remains as the Captain!

So it is good practice to learn to fly from the right

Pace

[tecman]

When I read the title of the thread I thought you were asking about how to exchange L-R positions in flight. There's a whole body of knowledge on that, not all of which we might want to write down :)

Anyway, very sound and worthy suggestions about learning to fly from the right seat.

[Mariner9]

I guess the co-pilot of the hijacked Ethiopian Airliner can log PIC for the latter part of the flight :ok:

[Pace]

Mariner 9

Not so daft as it sounds :E
Better example is when the Captain becomes incapacitated effectively leaving the FO as sole pilot!
That has happened a few times where the FO has flown an approach and landing!
Yes in that situation I presume he could log that portion of the flight as P1?
But with a type rating and unfrozen ATP it would go against other regulations in force to act as Captain/ P1 interesting what does happen in such circumstances?

Effectively he is Captain / P1 but the regulations say no

Pace

[cockney steve]

There is also the situation , where the Pax has had to take control when the Pilot has become incapacitated or died.
After arrival, (usually via "on the job" instruction over the radio )
does the Pax get a logbook with the PIC time recorded?
Do the CAA issue a notice of an offence being committed....unqualified pilot with unqualified instructor?

-even they wouldn't be daft enough to issue proceedings in that instance......would they?

Not so long since, a Coach driver collapsed at the wheel, a Pax realised and leaned over and steered the coach to a safe halt. there was no suggestion that he would be prosecuted for driving without a licence for the class.

[thing]

You deceide who is PIC and log it accordingly. Not arguing your point as I don't know one way or the other but surely if there's a prang then whoever signed as Pi/c in the tech log will be held as Pi/c during the enquiry? Who would know that he had handed over Pi/c to his right seater when the accident happened?

[Whopity]

Who would know that he had handed over Pi/c to his right seater when the accident happened? Nobody; so it would be your word against theirs and if you were dead they would probably win!
i wonder whose idea it was originally to establish the PIC seat is the left seat?It is based upon the passing conventions to give the pilot a better view of opposite direction traffic. Conversely; why do we drive on the left in the UK? Well, its because Coach doors were always on the left. Why you might ask? Because most people are right handed and when drawing ones sword for protection, it was best that you keep potential enemies on your right and you unprotected side to the left. A pitty boats didn't have doors in the side because aeroplanes opted to follow the nautical convention. I gather some NASA vehicles were based on the width of a railway track which was determined by the spacing of charriot wheels that was based on the width of a horse's arse.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I gather some NASA vehicles were based on the width of a railway track which was determined by the spacing of charriot wheels that was based on the width of a horse's arse.

SRBs. Bollox, of course, as the US rail gauge is same as here; 4' 8.5". But their trains are much bigger. So the chariot wheel / horse's arse theory doesn't follow, as there's no direct relationship between rail gauge and loading gauge.

Back to aviation - why do aeroplane captains sit on the left, and whirlybird ones on the right?

[Crash one]

I thought it was because the Yanks invented powered flight & they drive on the right sitting in the left seat they made the rules that way round?

[Whirlybird]

Back to aviation - why do aeroplane captains sit on the left, and whirlybird ones on the right?

Concerning helicopters....

Firstly, the pilot doesn't sit on the right in all helicopters; some are flown from the left, some from the middle. It is true that most are flown from the right. I've heard several explanations, but the most accepted one seems to be that the first helicopter pilots were taught by fixed-wing pilots, who sat on the left, so the student sat on the right, learned to fly from there, and continued to do so.

When flying solo it's sometimes a weight and balance thing; for example, the R22 can't be flown solo from the left.

[Big Pistons Forever]

SRBs. Bollox, of course, as the US rail gauge is same as here; 4' 8.5". But their trains are much bigger. So the chariot wheel / horse's arse theory doesn't follow, as there's no direct relationship between rail gauge and loading gauge.



Yes but the size of the tunnels a train has to pass through is determined by the max train car width which was influenced by the track gauge. So you could say that ultimately the size of Roman Horses rear end was a factor in the diameter of a rocket motor if they wanted to be able to transport it by rail.

[mad_jock]

I was taught that the horses backside story was bollocks anyway.

That the gauge of these things was just a trial and error initially.

The wider you make it the more stable it is but the harder it is to get things to change direction.

Over the years that width was found to be the most useful at achieving carts and wagons that don't fall over in a gust of wind but also you can get them to turn corners as well.

Hundreds of years later we found out the engineering principles and maths to prove what wagon makers had known for hundreds if not thousands of years before.

People have tried to reinvent the wheel when it comes to that gauge and it never works quite the way they intended.

There is a whole heap of geometric ratios out there that humans have used since before the pyramids were chucked up for designing things.

Cultures which there is no proof even knew about each other or even knew there was such a thing as a horses backside where using the same ratios and gauges for transport sledges and things like that.

[Pace]

MJ

Very little changes in aviation at more than a snails pace. Ok the electronics have changed but the basic airframes are still very much like they were 50 years ago.
We have had the Canard idea but aircraft still have conventional wings, fuselage, tail with fin and elevators, a nose wheel and two mains.
The seating could change to a central pilot seat! Why left or right? or even staggered seats ( again tried) but we still end up with aeroplanes that have not evolved from what we had 50 years ago.
Even the engines Continental or Lycoming are things of the past so its only computers and sat nav which have brought changes.

Someday someone will come up with a revolutionary lifting device or configuration but till then NOTHING change

pace

[thing]

You can't reinvent the wheel Pace. An aircraft is the shape it is because that's the best shape for it. As for middle seating, McClaren tried it in their road cars and it wasn't really liked. Plus would you really want a middle seat in the typical GA four seater? The passengers either side would have to be like Kate Moss.