47-year old C150 damaged in Moorabbin accident

[VH-Cheer Up]

VH-RXM - doen't look likely to make it's 50th birthday after this prang: Pair escape injury after single-engine plane crashes at Moorabbin Airport - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-18/small-plane-crashes-at-melbourne-airport/5266868)The occupants were more fortunate and walked away. Should be an interesting accident report.

[gfunc]

"Flights have resumed but planes are not using the centre runway where the crash happened. "

Maybe I've been doing it wrong, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a centre runway at MB nowadays! Good to hear those on board walked away.

[VH-XXX]

There have been a few pilots over the years that have converted the taxiway into a 3rd (centre) runway.

[Bevan666]

Once apon a time, it wasn't a taxiway!

[flywatcher]

I was a lovely aircraft, yellow, known as Romeo Christmas Mike when I flew it in 1971.

[27/09]

Don't those wooden heads love using foam.

[chimbu warrior]

47-year old C150

A shame it was one of the newer ones. ;)

[SenZubEanS]

AFAIK was a TIF being undertaken, yanked too hard, stalled, not enough elevation to recover before ground came rushing at them

[BlatantLiar]

AFAIK was a TIF being undertaken, yanked too hard, stalled, not enough elevation to recover before ground came rushing at them

L'out, the speculator bashers are going to come out. But, yes, thats whats making the rounds.

>>>Photo Here<<< (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bgu2eIPCAAALilb.jpg:large)

[Avgas172]

Good to see after 47 years it didn't just fall to bits as the ageing aircraft scene promulgates .... :ugh:

[sarge75]

Heard the story from a witness who saw the "take off":ugh::ugh:

[Sunfish]

Might it have been the old "Cessna Seat Pin" story, although I thought that was a purely a C172 issue?

[Armchairflyer]

Not sure; at least the need to check that the seat is indeed locked in place by rocking back and forth before starting the engine was strenuously communicated to all student pilots in the 152s of our club, too.

[Stikman]

Saw the impact yesterday. Wasn't a nice thing to watch. I was very relieved to see them both exit the aircraft unassisted.

[Tee Emm]

"AFAIK was a TIF being undertaken, yanked too hard, stalled,"


Giving a TIF person a take off or landing?? "A courageous decision, Prime Minister" More like stupidity on the part of the instructor

[VH-XXX]

Looking back on it I swear I nearly crashed a 152 on landing during my TIF at Moorabbin which was my first time in a small aircraft. Shortly after I wondered why on earth the instructor let it go so pear shaped.

That's the problem with a TIF, you want the potential student to get a good experience the first time to entice them to sign up with you, but on the other hand you need to be safe.

[NutLoose]

Sunfish

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,212
Might it have been the old "Cessna Seat Pin" story, although I thought that was a purely a C172 issue?



Shouldn't happen on a 172 now, there is a free ( last time I looked) kit from Cessna that adds an inertia seatbelt to the base of the seat that bolts to the floor, stopping the P1 seat shooting back. Just look up the current revision as they keep extending the deadline.

See

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/442125-cessna-secondary-seat-stop-system-service-bulletin-seb07-5r1.html

[mickjoebill]

Don't those wooden heads love using foam.

Are you suggesting they shouldn't cover leaking fuel with foam?

Saw the impact yesterday.

How long did it take for the fire trucks to arrive at the scene?



Mickjoebill

[VH-Cheer Up]

Same thing used to happen on Piper Cherokees, too. And (no connection) the bloody door would come unlatched at 1000'!

Adjusting the seat pitch and rocking back and forth to check positive engagement became part of my pre-start checklist.

Never seen either unwanted event happen on a Bonanza!

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Giving a TIF person a take off or landing?? "A courageous decision, Prime Minister" More like stupidity on the part of the instructor


There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting a TIF student do a take-off or following the instructor on the landing. It is a Trial INSTRUCTIONAL Flight. At what point would you let any other student do a take off? Wait until they get up to circuits?

If the instructor allowed the situation to degrade to the point where the aircraft stalled, (if that even is the actual cause) then there's a bigger issue to be dealt with, but there is nothing illegal or stupid about letting a TIF take off.

[dubbleyew eight]

from the photo VH-RXM looked like a pretty suave little aeroplane.

[andrewr]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting a TIF student do a take-off or following the instructor on the landing. It is a Trial INSTRUCTIONAL Flight. At what point would you let any other student do a take off? Wait until they get up to circuits?

I'm not an instructor, but I would have thought it might be wise to cover effects of controls (at altitude) first. Possibly start doing the takeoff from the second flight?

[VH-Cheer Up]

I think what's probably happening is a subtle crossover between the instructor wishing to maintain a safe flight deck and an instructor trying to convert a prospect into a customer.

If the prospect can apply power and keep a straight line down the middle, apply a little back pressure when suggested, but not too much, the feeling of elation and confidence will convert to $$$ in the till and a happy new punter in the left hand seat, and a happy chappie in the right-hand seat who can afford to eat again.

Just saying, instructors are between a rock and a hard place. Both salesperson and quality controller. Hmmm...

[Lancair70]

Way back when I held an instructor rating, I let TIF students take off, if the conditions were suitable (if they werent we tried to talk them into a TIF on a day that was going to be nice).
As others said, the instructor is a salesman on a TIF.

I've even sat in the RHS when taking family/friends flying (if it was nice wx) and let whoever is in the LHS takeoff and fly as many of us know, basic vfr flying isn't rocket surgery.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

andrewr

I've lost count of how many TIF's I've done and if anything, people have to be encouraged to manipulate the controls to the required amount, be they a TIF or doing Effects of Controls. I have yet to come across one that yanked so hard they were in danger of stalling.

A bit of turbulence is often good for getting them to actually move the controls without them being afraid they'll break something.

[Stikman]

How long did it take for the fire trucks to arrive at the scene?

Couldn't say for sure. I had time to taxi back to the western grass from 35R and shut down my aircraft before I heard any sirens.

[A37575]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting a TIF student do a take-off or following the instructor on the landing. It is a Trial INSTRUCTIONAL Flight. At what point would you let any other student do a take off? Wait until they get up to circuits?


Relax..Chill out old chap -no need to "SHOUT" with the word instructional.

No matter how thorough a preflight briefing, a TIF student who may never have flown before is not going to remember a single word about how to conduct a take off or a landing. He certainly would not comprehend the concept behind the combined operation of rudder, rudder pedals, brakes use with rudder pedals and the limited nose-wheel steering available via the operation of the rudder pedals during a take-off roll or a landing roll.

It is common to see first time people buying a "Flight Experience" in these generic Boeing 737NG flight training devices that have sprung up in most capital cities, reverting to turning the control wheel instead of using the rudder pedals while attempting to control the aircraft on the take off run and going off the side of the runway. And that's in a aircraft simulator- not the real thing like an aeroplane at Moorabbin. Add to that the engine noise on take off, the cacophony of radio transmissions at a place like Moorabbin, a head-set jammed on his head and the babble to the TIF person of unintelligible coaching from the instructor, the hapless student hasn't a clue what he is supposed to be achieving.

No wonder it gets still more confusing when he is told to pull back on the wheel and jerks the plane into the air while at the same time he feels the instructor is overriding everything he does including grabbing the wheel. What a really intelligent way to introduce a potential student to his first flight experience. And that is only the first 30 seconds of his flight. The keen, enthusiastic instructor has yet to teach him how to land if that is included in the TIF.

Surely if the aim of the exercise is to give the TIFFer an enjoyable first introduction to flying, then he would learn more by watching the instructor demonstrate/patter a take off. TIF's should be only of 30 minutes duration and let the student do simple manoeuvres such as level flight, turning and setting requested power settings. Point to the clouds and tell him the names, Cumulus etc. Show him the compass and the direction of the cardinal points by looking out of the cockpit to the north and east and so on. But avoid packing in superfluous patter while he is having a go at the controls.

There is an art to conducting a TIF and over-instruction or anything sudden or frightening or overwhelming of the senses must be avoided if you hope the student will return another day.

To try and talk through the student into a final approach and landing is most unwise for all the reasons explained earlier. And he won't learn a thing except feelings of utter confusion and worst of all he will feel foolish and embarrassed as the instructor rides him on the controls to the extent he won't know who is up who and who is paying the rent.

There is an old saying that new instructors should never forget when talking someone into a TIF. "People will forget what you said...people will forget what you did....But people will never forget how you made them feel.":ok:

[SenZubEanS]

News from another instructor at Tristar was that the instructor had been in hospital afterwards for a bump to the head and possibly a torn muscle of some sort in his shoulder or similar.
He had advised that the student had been unresponsive in releasing controls and was having to apply quite some force to override.
CASA also paid a visit this morning, which is nothing out of the ordinary after something like that.

[172sp]

If it did happen to be a TIF, I wonder if he got a refund?....

[cattletruck]

I feel sorry for the instructor and hope he heals up fast.

I know of a corporate flunkie who was given a gift voucher for a couple of flying lessons on RXM a year ago. A gym junkie, alpha male, loud, suppressed homo tendencies, and a bit of a control freak.

I wonder if he eventually decided to take up flying, in which case I really do feel sorry for the instructor.

:E

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Font size 3 would have been shouting.

The emphasis was on Instructional versus a Joyflight, ie. giving them a go versus showing them how good you are.

It would be up to the instructor to exercise their own discretion of course, but an unqualified statement along the lines of "letting a TIF student do the takeoff is stupid" is in my experience more often then not incorrect.

One of the first things you will work out is whether this is a present for a birthday and they have no interest at all in comtinuing or if they are seriously considering flying training. The fact that Little Jimmy is only 11 years old may influence how early you decide to give him the controls.

I agree with most of what you have said, except that you really won't overwhelm the student by letting them rotate and then taking over until you get to 1000'. If you have prepped them correctly, they won't simply "pull back" requiring the instructor to intervene and confusing the poor sod.

Describing the landing (ie. describing the landing attitude, nothing too heavy) while they follow is also unlikely to overload them, but will be useful in the interests of primacy if they are intending to continue.

Not everyone will agree with my opinions, but there is definitely an "art" to this exercise.:cool:

[601]

Must be one of those new fangled swept fin 152. Them things sure go fast:cool:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

He had advised that the student had been unresponsive in releasing controls and was having to apply quite some force to override.


I wonder if many instructor courses these days have any focus on techniques to regain control from a frozen student.

No relevance to this incident, but remember being told about a TIF near Sydney many years ago where a "prospective student" (actually a pilot who had his medical suspended for psych reasons) tried to exit the aircraft mid flight. When the instructor tried to stop him, he threatened to crash the plane on landing.
Talk about a rock and a hard place.:(

[Judd]

I've done hundreds of TIFs in my time.


Oh well done that man. Let's hope this is not the start of yet another pissing context

[Runaway Gun]

I only did one, before continuing my lessons...

[Centaurus]

I wonder if many instructor courses these days have any focus on techniques to regain control from a frozen student.


There will be bar talk only but nothing in any manuals that gives expert advice. For example, in another era during my final handling test before being awarded a QFI grading at the RAAF Central Flying School, the CFS instructor who was a former wartime Spitfire pilot, asked me to patter to him an eight turn spin and recovery in a Wirraway. Following my demonstration he took control and became the student while he did the eight turn spin.

Everything went well when I noticed he had not started recovery action at the completion of the eight turns. By now we had lost several thousands of feet as expected after starting off at 8000 ft. I ordered him to take immediate recovery action. No answer from the front seat so I attempted to take control only to find the controls jammed in the pro-spin positions.

I again told the student to let go of the controls. "Can't Sir, - I have frozen on the controls and I am **** scared" the CFS instructor said over the intercom.

"Relax Bloggs" I muttered into the oxy mask "I have control so take your hands and feet of the controls."

"Can't, Sir" came the muffled reply - muffled because the bastard was laughing his head off in the front seat. By now we were down to 3000 feet and things were getting serious.

I was only a sergeant pilot and the CFS instructor was a decorated Flight Lieutenant and moreover he was in command. But bugger the rank because I was now thoroughly scared of what was happening.

I took a deep breath and roared into the intercom, "Let go of the Fuc*#ing controls, you stupid bloody idiot!"

Immediately the instructor let go of the controls and I recovered the Wirraway with not much to spare.

"Well done, Sergeant" said the CFS instructor from the front seat. "Never be afraid to use foul language at a student who has frozen on the controls - it may shock him into releasing his death grip on the controls."

As I said, there is nothing written in the instructor manuals about this but it’s worthwhile keeping in mind as a last resort. My experience, however, was nothing compared to another RAAF instructor at Point Cook tasked with ab-initio training of foreign pilots on a light trainer called the CT4 which has side by side seating. The student was a huge man straight from the jungles of Papua New Guinea which is to the north of Australia. The instructor was irritated with the seeming incompetence of his student and said something that not only insulted the student but caused him to snap.

Suddenly the student grabbed the controls and rolling the aircraft inverted had it pointing earthwards, at the same time growling “We both die, Sir.” The instructor didn’t have the strength to overpower the students strong grip and the end was near until the instructor changed tack and apologised profusely to the student for upsetting him with his criticism. At that, the student let go the controls allowing the instructor to recover close to the ground.
“Don’t swear at me again, Sir” said the student “or you know what will happen” :E

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Tandem skydivers go through something similar - they have to demonstrate being able to override a panicking passenger - with instructions to knock them out if necessary to regain control.

[cockney steve]

Firstly, I'd like to say how much I enjoy reading the Aussie threads,devoid of all this PC bollox.
Wrt "instructional " flight , It seems extremely risky to let a raw beginner do a takeoff....Apart from the overload to all senses, how do you justify the need for another ~40 hours of expensive instruction?
Simple things, like setting cruise or descent power, then trimming accurately. yep, we porpoised along for a minute or so! co-ordinated turns (flown models and sailed, so I know what a rudder's for) -these are a real challenge to the "first timer"....t/o and landing can wait until Ihave a "feel" for the controls.

Never had a lesson, but had friends and "informal instruction" in Aeronca Chief,(also a brief jolly in a Champ, for comparison) - Rans 6, 152, 172....."followed through" on the pedals , landing and taking-off with the Chief..."interesting"...one needed to be ahead of the Aeroplane!
The huge advantage of a side-by side trainer....an uncooperative trainee can be focussed with a quick backhander....bit difficult in a tandem,as Centaurus describes.

[43Inches]

The whole point of a trial instructional flight is to give the student an insight into the difficulty (or ease) of learning to fly. If you make it look like a space shuttle exercise from day one the student will be put off or stressed out before you even start. Flying from a basic point of view under guidance is simple, why make it sound so difficult. C152/172 or PA28 take-off proceedure; apply full power, point end of runway with rudder, when it feels like it wants to fly (insert speed if you like) gently use control to raise nose to horizon. Let them know you will be following their movements closely so that if they feel overwhelmed you can take over. If your trial student cant achieve that then they will be a 20+ hour solo student. Give the student a go at taxiing so they know how the rudder works and a play with the wheel and demonstrate acceptable movement prior to commencing roll. If you feel the student is not up to the task then scale down their involvement as necessary. Make sure they understand what "handing over"/"taking over" means before you start the engine.

Not so long ago where I started instructing the average hours for solo was somewhere just under 10 with some soloing at 6-8 hours. Basically you went from no experience to solo in that time, and that was before the advent of mass use of PC flight simulators by the beginners. I would guess since CASA mandated that Pipers and Cessnas were modified to be more difficult to fly the average hours must be around 15-20 for solo.

[T28D]

I am intrigued, how did CASA mandate making Cessna's and Pipers more difficult to fly ?? what changes to the Type Certificate ??


In any event how do you make a C172 hard to fly ?? saw 2 feet off each wing tip and half the height of the fin ??

[training wheels]

Not so long ago where I started instructing the average hours for solo was somewhere just under 10 with some soloing at 6-8 hours. Basically you went from no experience to solo in that time, and that was before the advent of mass use of PC flight simulators by the beginners. I would guess since CASA mandated that Pipers and Cessnas were modified to be more difficult to fly the average hours must be around 15-20 for solo.

I've found PC flight simulators to be more of a hindrance than a help at the ab-initio stages of instruction, as student pilots tend to focus too much on the instruments than looking outside visually for the correct attitude. This might explain why it's taking longer for students to solo these days compared to the pre-computer age.

And plus, many try to land the real aircraft like they do with their PC computer game with no 'feel' for the sink and application of back pressure on the control column. They start off by trying to plonk the aircraft down three wheels on to the runway.

So, as an instructor, you start off by un-teaching bad habits where as before, back in our pre-computer days, you start off teaching students from a clean slate.

[43Inches]

So, as an instructor, you start off by un-teaching bad habits where as before, back in our pre-computer days, you start off teaching students from a clean slate.

Very true.

The original statement was not a serious one. It was more aimed at why have training times increased dramatically despite modern technology and training philosophies. What is more interesting is that the rate of accidents has not changed, and fatal accidents have increased slightly despite GA flying slightly decreasing. Serious incidents are increasing at quite a high rate (all statistical data can be found on the ATSB site).

I am intrigued, how did CASA mandate making Cessna's and Pipers more difficult to fly ?? what changes to the Type Certificate ??

They modified light aircraft with competency based training which led to instructors assessing students rather than training them, if improperly implemented. Although the aircraft did not change, the flying training component required to achieve solo increased. In essence the aircraft must have become harder to fly because the training times suddenly started to increase as a result.

[T28D]

I think this is an amazing statement


"essence the aircraft must have become harder to fly because"


So the methodology used in training changes to competency based assessment and the "aircraft" become harder to fly.


I must be missing something, how does training methodology affect the difficulty involved in flying the aircraft, ANY aircraft ??????????

[Wally Mk2]

I'm not in the instructing side of things but having soloed in around 8 hrs in a C150 it was all about covering the syllabus at the time & showing an ability, is that not the same today?
It takes longer to competently train up someone to fly R/C toys planes these days.


Wmk2

[garrya100]

I fail to see how curriculum based training that states you have to do xx hours can produce a safer pilot than competency based training. Competency is all about training to a standard. If you don't yet meet the standard, you need more training.

Why should Joe have to spend say 2 hrs learning to fly straight and level because the book says he has to if he's got it worked out in 30mins? That's goes against all adrogogy theory which states successful adult learning requires a reward system as opposed to rote learning.

The PPL syllabus is all written to meet a minimum standard and has a minimum hour requirement as it stands. Surely a quality instructor is the best person to judge whether somebody is competent rather then 'book hours'

[Centaurus]

I've found PC flight simulators to be more of a hindrance than a help at the ab-initio stages of instruction, as student pilots tend to focus too much on the instruments than looking outside visually for the correct attitude. This might explain why it's taking longer for students to solo these days compared to the pre-computer age.

An interesting personal opinion. Far from finding PC synthetic trainers a hindrance, I believe that several hours practicing flying on a synthetic trainer allows the student to be more comfortable in his knowledge and potential skills before he does his ab-initio training in the real thing. Even basic R/T can be introduced while in the synthetic trainer or PC trainer since R/T is such an important integral part of early training. The PC trainer is ideal for training procedures the student will use in the air.

The "feel" of a synthetic trainer will be different of course to the real thing but that is easily overcome when the students starts flying. It is up to the instructor to then refine the procedures the student experienced in the PC trainer. While others may have differing viewpoints, having taught students in synthetic trainers before first flight I did not find they were heads down into instrument flying. On the contrary they were quick to rectify airspeed, compass and altitude deviations since they were used to scanning. In turn they devoted more time to the outside view and situational awareness since a quick glance at a performance instrument was a natural thing for them. More than anything, use of a synthetic trainer or PC trainer gave the student greater confidence which showed during ab-initio training in the real thing.

It is difficult to understand your point of longer time to first solo experienced by students who have practiced flying their PC trainers. I believe times to first solo started to increase many years back when all over grass airfields gave way to runway operations. In those days the aero club training area was typically only a few minutes away from the aerodrome which meant short transit times. My log book for example shows the majority of dual ab-initio instruction flights before first solo of 40 minutes and certainly less than one hour. Nowadays we see long delays before getting airborne at capital city secondary airports such as Essendon and Moorabbin and training areas sometimes more than 25 minutes transit time in each direction. The training environment has changed significantly. Of course frequency of flights, and student and instructor ability all come into consideration when looking at why dual hours before first solo have increased from 8-10 hours to typically 15 to 20 hours and even more. There is no shortage of anecdotal evidence that "hours building" by some flying instructors also means an inordinate amount of dual goes into the students log books in relation to solo time. In other words supervision of instructors by their CFI's is lax.

All of the above considerations must be taken into account when looking into the disparity in time to first solo in the old days when compared to present day flying training. I believe it has nothing to do with the fact that students today have access to PC flight trainers.

Re competency based training as another perceived reason for longer times to first solo. More dual hours does not necessarily produce a better student pilot. The skill of the instructor is an important factor. The mere fact the amount of paperwork an instructor is required to fill in after each flight in order to tick every box on the progress report, has increased four-fold from the old days, has nothing to do with time to first solo and certainly does not increase student handling skills.

[Tankengine]

Garry,
I think you are correct.
If it is taking 15-20 hours to send students solo by competency in C150-172 then you really do need to look at the competency of the Instructors!:hmm:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Centaurus,

You are correct that a Synthetic Trainer or even a PC can be a useful training aid but there IS a very real negative transfer between unsupervised recreational use of PC flight sims and the real aircraft.

My theory is that due to the limited field of vision in a PC sim the stude is reliant on gauges for all their information. It's great that they can read gauges, yes, but if you are unaware of their preferences they will go to gauges in preference to attitude all the time.

I find it is avoided quickly & simply by asking if they have played Flight Sims a lot and if so, highlight the potential pitfalls at the start. Watch their eyes when flying, etc.

The other potential complication in this discussion: maybe nerd-boy Flight Sim addict has very little spatial awareness or hand-eye coordination in the real 3D world beyond his bedroom?

The guys who work outside or ride motorbikes or play footy all make better flying students - maybe not so hot on the theory or getting Met on a computer though.

Finally: I can't remember who wrote it but someone mentioned letting the stude in a TIF have a go at steering etc to assess their ability, then giving them as much of the takeoff as they can safely handle. Agree 100%... but they have to be happy that you have total control from the RHS if required, understand handover/takeover, and so on.

[training wheels]

Centaurus I think you've missed the point trainingwheels was making. He's not talking about proper synthetic trainers, he's talking about Microsoft Flight Sim or whatever the cool cats have at home these days.

Yes, that's what I was referring to. The type of students who were self taught at home unsupervised by an instructor, flying MS flight sim in their leisure. If you've instructed such students, it's quite evident where they're coming from as they all have a 'natural' tendency to look at the instruments first when flying. All you need to do is look at their eyes when going from climb to cruise, they'll be focusing on the AH to set the cruise attitude rather than looking out the window.

Another common occurrence with such students is flying the aircraft by trim rather than setting the right attitude, and then trimming .. :ugh: .

When students repeatedly do such errors, it has become a habit that makes it even more difficult to break or 'un-teach'. Any good instructor will not allow for this to continue uncorrected which explains the longer times before solo these days, compared to pre-computer age days.

But I do agree that synthetic trainers are good for a number of things even during the early stages of ab-initio training, as a procedural trainer.

[Centaurus]

they'll be focusing on the AH to set the cruise attitude rather than looking out the window.


That is exactly how aircraft should be flown. It applies to all aircraft from Cessna to 747. In fact part of the lesson for an ab-initio student for the sequence straight and level flight includes scanning of the artificial horizon. Read the CASA Flight instructors manual DA 2342 (Rev 5/88) at page 17, Exercise No. 5 where the published aim is to teach how to fly the aeroplane accurately straight and level.

Quote: "During the flight stress the attitude of the aeroplane with reference to the natural horizon...instruct the student to keep a good lookout and point out prominent landmarks as an introduction to the process of orientation.
As the student becomes more proficient draw his attention to the flight instruments. show how their indications are directly related to the attitude of the aeroplane in relation to the horizon. Do all this in all exercises from now on - remembering the need for a good lookout. Do not let him get a `head in the cabin` complex. ...when the aeroplane is settled in straight and level flight point out the instrument indications and relate them directly to the attitude of the aeroplane

..Straight and Level Flight at Various Power Settings; Instruments Point out that the indications of the instruments are now different from the normal cruising straight and level indications...Relate these readings directly to the aeroplane' different attitude, especially the lower nose position"

Climbing...during the climb point out the indications of the various flight instruments...Relate these indications directly to the attitude of the aeroplane in relation to the natural horizon"

And the CASA Flight Instructors Manual even gives advice to instructors on how to conduct a TIF or Air Experience. To those instructors keen to chance their arm and throw a TIF student into the deep end by giving them a take off the manual has this to say at page 1.

Quote "If possible the flight should be made in good weather, as many potential pilots have been frightened away by rough and unpleasant weather. very little instructions should be given at this stage though if he appears to be comfortable the student should be allowed to `follow the instructor through` on the controls and even manipulate them for a short while" Unquote

I can't remember who wrote it but someone mentioned letting the stude in a TIF have a go at steering etc to assess their ability, then giving them as much of the takeoff as they can safely handle. Agree 100%

Interesting the Flight Instructor's Manual doesn't mention this technique. Rather it recommends for a TIF "Very little instructions should be given at this stage..though if he appears to be comfortable the student should be allowed to `follow the instructor through` and even manipulate them for a short while Clearly the intent is to do this at cruise altitude - not a take off and climb.

[dubbleyew eight]

you want to watch your quotes there centaurus.
when I read that I thought you were advocating flying in day vfr by instruments.

btw the Tee shirt that I'm wearing says "fly the attitude"
(its from adelaide biplanes at aldinga)

[Centaurus]

A bit of turbulence is often good for getting them to actually move the controls without them being afraid they'll break something

Really? What a "bit of turbulence" is to the instructor can mean something else entirely to a first time TIF student.. To quote from the CASA Flight instructors Manual again: "If possible the flight should be made in good weather, as many potential pilots have been frightened away by a rough and unpleasant first flight."

Too many inexperienced instructors are keen to beat the others to pick up a TIF and if that means the weather is not suitable, then their attitude is what the hell I need to eat and a TIF student is the start regardless of the suitability of the weather. Essendon pilots may remember the grade 3 that taxied in a 30 knot wind with a TIF student while those watching from the safety of Essendon terminal building watched with great interest.

Checking the controls of the 152 at the threshold of 35 with wind gusting beyond 30 knots, when full back elevator was made the Cessna got airborne into a half loop and finished inverted on the runway. The TIF student certainly got his money's worth but whether he came back for another TIF is lost in history. The instructor told investigators he gave the choice that day to the TIF student who didn't have a clue of course about weather but who said "Let's go". So they did - with a spectacular result:ok:

[training wheels]

Quote: "During the flight stress the attitude of the aeroplane with reference to the natural horizon...instruct the student to keep a good lookout and point out prominent landmarks as an introduction to the process of orientation.

Doesn't that mean looking out the window and not at the instruments? I have had many students in the past who start off instrument flying from lesson 1. LOL!

[Tankengine]

Better to do their first flights in a glider, that way they don't get confused with artificial horizons OR engines.:ok:
They learn what their feet are for too!:ok:;)

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Really? What a "bit of turbulence" is to the instructor can mean something else entirely to a first time TIF student.. To quote from the CASA Flight instructors Manual again: "If possible the flight should be made in good weather, as many potential pilots have been frightened away by a rough and unpleasant first flight."

Use a little bit of common sense here.

My comment was directed at the fact many EOC flights need to be encouraged to move the controls further. I was definitely not advocating that you conduct the TIF when there's a sigmet current.:rolleyes:

Centaurus, if my willingness to give a potential student as high a quality experience as possible results in that student not coming back, then it can be said I am doing the wrong thing, but I'm sure that after over ten years and a couple of thousand hours of instructing, I think I (and more importantly my company) would notice if none of my TIFs were coming back.

That ain't the case...:cool:

Many instructors have many different ways of doing things. Techniques I use may work better for some students than others. Other instructors may have a different tact to achieve the same aim, but remember, this industry is definitely not one size fits all. I'm not trying to say all instructors must let their TIFs do the take off. I don't let all mine do it either, but the original comment was that it is neither illegal nor stupid if you choose to do so and I stand by that.


Clearly the intent is to do this at cruise altitude - not a take off and climb.

If that is the intent, then it would say though if the student appears to be comfortable the student should be allowed to ‘follow the instructor through’ on the controls and even manipulate them for a short while in the cruise.

That, again, ain't the case...:cool:

[Judd]

but I'm sure that after over ten years and a couple of thousand hours of instructing,
and
"I've done hundreds of TIF's in my time".

OK, so we are all impressed. But best leave the flaunting of your qualifications to your CV, chaps:D

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I respect Centaurus and think he makes many valuable contributions to this site. In this case, I just happen to disagree with his opinion and am backing up my argument with experience.:cool:

[Horatio Leafblower]

I'm with you MIHC.

I also greatly respect the contributions of Centaur-a-saurus and A37565 amongst a few others.

... like MIHC I disagree with them on this one.