The future of fitness testing.

[Al R]

The US Army Times has asked the troops for suggestions as to how physical fitness testing should evolve.. should it be refined as more fit for role? Should the Royal Air Force do the same, is our testing too tough at the moment as it is, should it change; if so, how?

New Army PT test ahead: What do you want fixed? | PT365 (http://blogs.militarytimes.com/pt365/2014/02/13/new-army-pt-test-ahead-what-do-you-want-fixed/)

Apologies if this has been discussed before. :}

[Pontius Navigator]

Apologies if this has been discussed before. :}

Yr joking, right?

It was in yesterday's paper that the Police have introduced a fitness test and that 70% of the failures are from women doing the bleep test. Admit I am surprised seeing the porkers we have here.

But fit for purpose might be fine for an ammunition hauler or infantry. In the small RAF would you have a trade standard or a job standard?

Without singling out any trade, you have the telephone answer who could argue that BMI +25% is fine where they are working but could counter that the same role OOA demands fitness o fight if necessary.

It would, IMHO, have to be implemented trade wide.

[Al R]

PN,

I award you my first PPRuNe whoosh parrot. ;)

[NutLoose]

BMI count, The US troops simply go under the hoover to get rid of that problem, sad isn't it.

US troops resort to liposuction to pass military's body-fat test - National Celebrity Fitness and Health | Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/article/us-troops-resort-to-liposuction-to-pass-military-s-body-fat-test)

There's no excess fat there Doc, just folds and folds of redundant skin... URGH

[Tashengurt]

PN.
The Police fitness test is laughable at the moment. 5.4 on the bleep test. That's barely jogging. However, it's going to get gradually harder in the next few years. A cynic might see a correlation between that and the longer time officers have to serve before receiving their pensions.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Dan Winterland]

5.4 on the bleep test? Walking!

And please don't tell me that BMI is still being used. I thought that most people had realised that it is bogus science.

[kaitakbowler]

When the RAF introduced the beep tests (mid/late '90s??) my Young sgt went for his test and recorded 20! Mind he was a joint service middle distance runner and had just returned from a JS athletic trip to Arizona Me? Too old, static bike and the ludicrous "grip"test for us wrinklies.

We later learnt that Seb Coe had (reportedly) done 21.

PM

[Pontius Navigator]

kb, and before that we had someone that could not meet the 1.5 mile run standard.

He was a super-marathon runner. I am not sure how far that was but if you can run 50 miles or more and never imbibe caffeine you must be fit.

[99 Change Hands]

The future of RAF fitness?

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae135/wislonuk/fitness_zpsd5f94e24.jpg

Bring it on!

[Lima Juliet]

Looking forward to the warm down!!!^^^^

[gr4techie]

Only a problem if you have a sedentary lifestyle where the only jogging you do is jogging your memory and running a bath!

If people were to regularly go for a 30 minute run, 3 times a week, throughout the year (and not just one week before the fitness test) you'd get so used to running that come test time you'll pass effortlessly and getting into the Blue zone is easy.

The thing with running, is start of small and gradually build up the distance so you don't injure yourself. Most running injuries are doing too much too soon, or the wrong trainers for the way your feet roll. Then the more you run, the better you become. Can only make you fitter.

The biggest problem I see with the young guys, is their idea of going to the gym is to lift weights for a big chest and arms vanity. They totally neglect any cardio fitness. Therefore still struggle running the fitness test.

[Pontius Navigator]

If people were to regularly go for a 30 minute run, 3 times a week, throughout the year . . . you'd get so used to running that come test time you'll pass effortlessly and getting into the Blue zone is easy.

Sorry techie, while what you say is true I am afraid the mouse theory also applies.

Whilst I didn't meet your 30x3 I did do the Canadian 5xX but my knees have now given in. I can't kneel. If I go on bended knee I have to have something to climb up to get up again.

You need a good diet, good life style and moderate exercise.

[just another jocky]

The biggest problem I see with the young guys, is their idea of going to the gym is to lift weights for a big chest and arms vanity. They totally neglect any cardio fitness. Therefore still struggle running the fitness test.

Would they be the ones required to sustain 9G in their office?

[Wallah]

Fortunately, it's not something I need to worry about!:eek:

[wannabeTyphoon]

If the aim of the fitness test is to maintain a standard of fitness across the year then it is, in my view, unfit for purpose. This is evidenced by the relative scarcity of people in the LOO gym until the month before a fitness test is due when the gym dodgers drag themselves into the gym for a couple of weeks in order to make the low pass standard.

At least the move to a fitness test every 6 months has resulted in relative 'fitness' for 2 months of the year instead of one!

While it would be a nightmare to administer , Stations should spring a fitness test on personnel in a similar way to CDT. This might put the fear in people to force them to take their health and fitness seriously, resulting in regular physical exercise rather than panicking in the month leading up to RAFFT.

wT

[Saintsman]

Perhaps they should bring back Wednesday sports afternoons.

[touchpaper]

Commanders (yes Cpl all the way up to Air Mshl) do you not have a duty of care to ensure those whom you command are of the right fitness level to carry out ALL duties to which they can, and are, called upon to complete - at the same time YOU MUST be of the same level to carry out those same duties. I think this then comes back to ensuring all ranks complete PT, perhaps as a Sqn PT session, which will then bring back some of the lost 'Esprit de corps'.

[Melchett01]

It seems that because a large proportion of the RAF are involved in relatively sedentary jobs, there will always be arguments concerning fit or fit for role. Personally, I think that people putting those arguments up are missing the point - fit and fit for role are not mutually exclusive.

In this sense, I do wonder if the Army doesn't have it right? Why not have a baseline fitness test that everyone has to achieve twice a year as we do now, but then introduce a role based fitness test on top of that testing fitness for operations. The Army's CFT is done on top of the personal fitness test and is graded according to your specialisation, so someone in the AGC will be carrying a lower weight and have higher times than someone in the line infantry, and in turn, the line infantry will be higher than the Paras etc etc.

I'm sure that such a suggestion would no doubt meet with howls of outrage, most of which in my experience has come from a the SNCO section of the RAF who joined up when hard drinking, hard smoking and sport solely through the medium of darts and watching the football on Saturday night was the idea of being physically active. Just because they have so far dodged a heart attack and can lift a pen to sign off what ever bit of paper they need to sign, they argue they are fit for role and that's that. I have been on units in the past where even making CO's PT a formal parade couldn't get some of these individuals into the gym. But equally, the RAF has a part to play in this by freeing up time for individuals to do some phys, so as suggested, let's bring back Sports afternoons and other formally programmed sessions.

But at the end of the day, to my mind, being fit for role and fit for Ops is but a by product. Being fit for life should be the objective and many people seem to lack the pride and self-discipline to keep themselves fit and are happy to be a walking bucket of lard with the Grim Reaper following close behind.

[Wrathmonk]

happy to be a walking bucket of lard with the Grim Reaper following close behind

Quite. Makes you wonder how they get through their annual aircrew medical each year. Must have had (or still have) very sympathetic/gash doctors at Kinloss, Lyneham and Brize :E:E:E;)





Only kidding. Doctors are never gash. And now awaits flaming....

[November4]

PN.
The Police fitness test is laughable at the moment. 5.4 on the bleep test. That's barely jogging. However, it's going to get gradually harder in the next few years. A cynic might see a correlation between that and the longer time officers have to serve before receiving their pensions.


As I understand it, the 5.4 level for the Police is not comparable to the Armed Forces 5.4 as the police have to run 15m (http://www.college.police.uk/en/19834.htm) between turns whereas the Armed Forces have to run 20m.

[Onceapilot]

It is a strange mixture. On the one hand, we have guidance that different members of "the team" have different strengths and it it is up to managers to get the best out of their team (pulling the weak along). On the other hand, we are told everyone is to be super-fit or you are out.:uhoh: That is the caution I note. Not everyone remains employable due to injury and ageing. Will YOU remain employable to age 60 or, will you be booted out when you can't make level 9 anymore?:ooh:

OAP

[Daf Hucker]

I'm amazed that the RAF managed to get along for 70-odd years before fitness testing came in!

It proves very little; those that enjoy phys get a kick out of showing people how fit they are, those that don't enjoy it endure the chore of maintaining a level of fitness that doesn't actually improve their effectiveness or efficiency.

It's become an empire that is increasing stress levels on large numbers of people, with little real benefit. It is held up as the RAF being concerned about your long term health, this is the same RAF that has little concern for your long term employment!

[Vortex_Generator]

I had never failed an RAF FT until, at the age of 52, I was directed by the doc to do the bike test due to osteoarthritic knees. Part way through the test, the muscle mechanic told me to stop (even though I felt fine and was happy to continue) as my heart rate was too high and it would be ‘unsafe’ for me to continue. When I enquired what precautions were taken during my previous beep test sessions to ensure my heart rate remained within ‘safe’ levels, he was unable to answer.

[Al-Berr]

At least the police have a non-ageist and non-sexist test. Why in the military should the youngest female age bracket only be tested to the level of the oldest male bracket? Would the Taliban not run as hard when chasing a female or an older person? There should one level for all to attain but the option for your maximum effort to be recorded.

[VinRouge]

It's become an empire that is increasing stress levels on large numbers of people, with little real benefit. It is held up as the RAF being concerned about your long term health, this is the same RAF that has little concern for your long term employment!

The same employer that sees me and others pull 20-30 hour working days on a regular basis, with all the negative health effects that entails.

If they were really that interested in my health, they would have enough people to do the job. The only reason we have a fitness test is to justify the ped flight.

[Melchett01]

It's become an empire that is increasing stress levels on large numbers of people

Sorry, I just don't see what is stressful about not being clinically obese or so unfit you can't run 20m shuttles without keeling over? And I say that as somebody who isn't particularly good at sport and doesn't take great delight in spending hours in a gym to show off, but someone who does take pride in being reasonably fit and who believes that as an armed force, we should be a bit fitter than your average overweight civvie.

At the end of the day, I guess it's a mentality thing; but if we suddenly had a box on the OJAR / SJAR that you had to tick to say you were in date fit test and that was a qualifier for being read by the Board, a lot more people would suddenly take an interest in their health and careers.

Edited to add - the difference between those fit & unfit types does remind me of that old joke about 2 guys in a wood ambushed by a bear. The first guy stops to put his trainers on and the second says you aren't going to out run it, to which the first replies I know, but I only have to out run you. Swap woods for being on ops and swap the bear for the enemy - now going on ops with fatties suddenly seems attractive on some levels :E

[Biggus]

Why should the RAF be interested about peoples long term health?



From a purely "bean counters" point of view, once you leave you become nothing more than a financial burden (assuming you have qualified for a pension, or even part pension). RAF pensions are funded from the MOD budget, not from general government funding. To a certain extent, the shorter your life span after leaving the RAF, the more money the RAF saves!



The same applies to the UK government as a whole, although the cost arguments on money saved by citizens life expectancy reducing (in terms of saving on pensions) vs increased costs incurred by the NHS having to deal with an unhealthy population is not one I am familiar with - although no doubt someone in the treasury has done/does this calculation on a regular basis.

Smoking is a similar situation. I believe (standing by to be corrected) that the taxes raised on smokers outweigh the financial cost to the UK economy of smoking related illnesses. Hence why the politicians haven't just banned it outright.

[Onceapilot]

As I understand it Melchy, you must be fit or, undergoing (limited) remedial or, exempted or you are out! Therefore, I do not follow your comment on a promotion tick-box as everyone is compliant.:) However, I do agree that a structured system of fitness levels for "the job" would be a way forward and, that would be finite levels, regardless of gender.:ok: The present system smacks of empire building and manipulation of personel. As for lifestyle choice well, I think "choice" (within the service requirements) is the word here.
Cheers

OAP

[vascodegama]

The problem I had was some of the exemptions. If someone fits the description so well used by TTN above, the I fail to see why they shouldn't be told to do one. The other argument that seems to do the rounds is that of gender fair or gender neutral. All went quiet when (at an EO meeting) I suggested that war/ops are not gender fair so the only reasonable test was a gender neutral one. Alcock vs the Chief Constable of Hampshire springs to mind!

[maxred]

Due to the very issue....

My heart... - Home (http://www.myheartcardio.com)

[Melchett01]

OAP,

Blue for the past 7 years and MFD - I think that helped minimize the effect of 2 serious skiing crashes over the same period.

And as for the 'check box' it would sort out the properly sick and lame who need medical assistance to get back to full fitness from the frankly bone idle and lazy who can't be bothered to meet minimum Service requirements. Call it carrot / stick.

[Onceapilot]

Sorry Melchy, I don't follow your logic. No one can stay in without meeting "minimum service requirements". Have you thought of joining the SAS?:ok:

OAP

[kintyred]

Years ago on exchange I had to book a fitness test with my parent unit 2 hours' drive away. The corporal asked me what I did to keep fit and I said that I played rugby for a local team. Turns out he played too and our stations met in the RAF cup the year before. "I was the skinny bugger on the right wing," I said. "Ah yes, I remember you," he said. "Well if you can do that, you can pass your fitness test. Don't bother coming down I'll sign you off!" No sign of empire building there and a good helping of common sense!

[Always a Sapper]

It ain't hard...

Bit of self respect, shed loads of realisation on the part of the individual that they are in the Bosses Armed Forces and don't work for Tesco et al... Oh and a wish not to look like a sack of potatoes while wearing the uniform.

Go for a wee jog every day, anything between 2 to 4 miles, if that starts to get boring then use lamp posts to liven it up and do a quick sprint followed by a steady jog between them or you could even snap out a quick 10 press ups, burpees or even the gym talibans fav 'bastardos' every other lamp post on a 3 mile circuit you'll soon notice it! An hour a day is all it takes.

As they say, have a jog or some other phys rather than a pie!

They should make the Armys version of training/testing tri-service where possible. The only exception I can see is on board ship, and thats simply through lack of space.

[gr4techie]

we are told everyone is to be super-fit or you are out.

Level 9 is not super fit. It's far from it.

Here's an article that shows what professional sportsmen and women can get, even Springbok prop forwards can get to 11.5 Beep Test Score Results (http://www.topendsports.com/testing/results/beep-test.htm)
it's interesting to see some clubs have a minimum standard.

If you regularly did cardio... every week... all year round, then level 9 is easy to achieve.

The same employer that sees me and others pull 20-30 hour working days on a regular basis, with all the negative health effects that entails.

I always found it ironic that we are to be fit, yet I've seen some pretty unhealthy food served in messes. Now it's PAYD I have been informed by someone in the know that they are banking on people eating chips and beans, as chips and beans have the lowest cost to the contractor. Eating unhealthy is cheaper. When eating in the mess turned into "hunt for the chicken, in your chicken curry" I stopped going.

Go for a wee jog every day, anything between 2 to 4 miles, if that starts to get boring then

20 to 25 minutes per day is what I've seen recommended. Beginners shouldn't worry about speed or distance just yet, just concentrate for how long you are running for. If you're unfit use interval training, where you run for a minute then recover by walking for 90 secs, repeat several times. Then gradually extend the run for a bit longer every week as you get used to it.
As for getting bored, I combat this by rarely running the same route in succession, I try to run as many varied routes as I can.

RAF pension once you leave
By being fit, when I retire I'm really going to get my monies worth. Payback for every time they f*cked us around.

The best quote I heard "You don't see any fat 70 year olds".

[The Old Fat One]

Is is, and always has been, the easiest thing in the world to devise a combined service fitness regime.

1. A common basic entry level fitness standard that everyone must past, regardless of age or sex (obviously with a very low bar)

2. A role specific fitness test which everyone must pass for their specific role (obviously with a very variable bar).

3. A thorough annual medical for all.

Why does this not happen? Partly because of the cost of providing said annual medical and partly because of empire building by the fit brigade and their devotees. You've only got to read between the lines of some of the "we're-jockstrappers-ain't-we-great" posters above, to see where I'm coming from.

PS BTW, TOFO is actually old & fat but I can still shin up a Munro in less than 2 hours (from sea level).

[airborne_artist]

I always found it ironic that we are to be fit, yet I've seen some pretty unhealthy food served in messes. Now it's PAYD I have been informed by someone in the know that they are banking on people eating chips and beans, as chips and beans have the lowest cost to the contractor. Eating unhealthy is cheaper. When eating in the mess turned into "hunt for the chicken, in your chicken curry" I stopped going.

I volunteer for Prostate Cancer UK to run awareness and information stands and talks. A couple of weeks ago I went to Tidworth for a health fair for the garrison. A packed lunch was provided by the MoD organisers. I'm not sure I've seen a less healthy collection of comestibles in years. The caterer was clearly still working to 1960s standards of healthy eating :ugh:

[teeteringhead]

Albeit many years ago, one recalls the Alcohol Abuse lecture on day one of the Flying Supervisors' Course ........... which was swiftly followed by the "Welcome Barrel"!

:ugh:

[Wander00]

Nothing seems to change - 1960s - if you could not make standard mess mealtimes due to flying, sandwiches or fry-up!

[Melchett01]

OAP -

SAS ... I assume you're talking the West Country Gun Club and not the Airline? The former no, at 38 I think my days of hanging out of helicopters are over. As for the latter, well I've heard some of the Hosties are rather nice and could be persuaded ;)

Anyway, I digress. I agree with you that in theory everybody has to meet the minimum standards to remain in. However, in over 15 years, I have all too often seen people pulling a fast one to get out of fitness tests, finding all sorts of excuses for failing fitness tests, then failing their re-tests and just before admin action is due to begin they miraculously manage to pull something out of the bag and the clock re-sets, they disappear off to the bar for a pint and the whole cycle starts again.

My current unit is a Joint unit headed up by an Army Lt Col. If people fail a fitness test they are packed off to the MO. If they are found to be fit but lazy, the PTIs get involved and it's a thrashing of a life time; if they don't take it seriously, then admin action begins before they have even had chance to fail a second time. Those that the MO finds a medical issue with are put into rehab. If after 84 days they are still broken and can't pass a fitness test then serious admin action in the form of a PAP 10 starts. Once on the PAP 10 process, it can be a short flash to bang to discharge, either on medical grounds or services no longer required at the one end or to a re-branch / med downgrade at the other end.

What I'm basically getting at is for many, as I suggested in my earlier post, it is a mindset issue. Many are just lazy and can't be bothered to put in the effort to stay fit and pass a fitness test. So yes, there are minimum standards, but are they enforced or are there too many loop holes for individuals to play the system? Individuals aren't fooling anybody other that the system when they pass their fitness test after a year of inactivity and then can be found immediately afterwards throwing up outside the gym fire doors. Level 9 is not particularly difficult to get by any stretch - even at my decrepit age I can still hit 11 and I'm certainly not a 'jockstrapper'. Rather than going to the Mess for a plate of stodge and a snooze at lunchtime, I go for a run instead, it really is that simple. Moderation in everything, including phys - little and often goes a long way.

[StopStart]

I did barely any phys at all whilst I was in the military. Now that I've left and discovered that PT is no longer compulsory, I've done loads.
Feel healthier and better than I have in years.

I'll agree though - the PEd Empire building way of fitness testing is dreadful. Their time would be better spent making physical training accessible and enjoyable for those (like myself) that ordinarily have no predisposition or interest in it. I've encountered folk in civvy street that completely changed my attitude to physical fitness. The PEd staff I encountered in the military were just a bunch of judgemental, stopwatch carrying characters that just reinforced my opinion (at the time) that the gym was a place that normal folk should do their utmost to avoid.

[TomJoad]

I did barely any phys at all whilst I was in the military. Now that I've left and discovered that PT is no longer compulsory, I've done loads.
Feel healthier and better than I have in years.

I'll agree though - the PEd Empire building way of fitness testing is dreadful. Their time would be better spent making physical training accessible and enjoyable for those (like myself) that ordinarily have no predisposition or interest in it. I've encountered folk in civvy street that completely changed my attitude to physical fitness. The PEd staff I encountered in the military were just a bunch of judgemental, stopwatch carrying characters that just reinforced my opinion (at the time) that the gym was a place that normal folk should do their utmost to avoid.

StopStart, I agree with pretty much all you said there. Firstly if you are going to impose a minimum fitness level then it must be relevant to the branch/trade requirement. Above all the PEd empire need to change teh attitude towards sports/fitness training from one to be endured to one to be enjoyed. Remember once trying to get access to the stn gym only to be turned away "come back next Thur afternoon for Health and Safety brief". The brief as expected was pointless.