5 Sqn Sentinal mapping floods

[Cows getting bigger]

BBC News - RAF spy plane Sentinel maps southern England floods (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26183728)

[melmothtw]

Tornados also, it would seem RAF Tornado jet joins flood relief effort - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10637529/RAF-Tornado-jet-joins-flood-relief-effort.html)

Can't accuse RAF comms of missing a trick. Flooding is the new Global War On Terror.

[Wensleydale]

Sentinel operating over water..... I wonder how long before someone mentions "MPA"?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

[Mil-26Man]

3 minutes...




Jane's Defence Weekly








DSEI 2013: Raytheon proposes maritime patrol Sentinel R.1








Copyright © IHS Global Limited, 2013











DSEI 2013: Raytheon proposes maritime patrol Sentinel R.1





Record Infohide


Publication:Jane's Defence Weekly


Author:Gareth Jennings, London


Section:


Country:United Kingdom





Last posted:2013-09-12


Images:1 image (https://janes.ihs.com/CustomPages/Janes/DisplayPage.aspx?DocType=News&ItemId=+++1585992&Pubabbrev=JDW#blockImage)





https://janes.ihs.com/ExternalItems/Janes/images/mags/jdw/jdw2013/data/images/p1420037.jpg (https://janes.ihs.com/ExternalItems/Janes/images/mags/jdw/jdw2013/data/images/p1420037.jpg)1420037The
RAF currently fields five Sentinel R.1 aircraft, which Raytheon say can be
reconfigured to undertake maritime patrol missions as part of a multirole
package. (IHS/Patrick Allen)





Raytheon is pitching the Sentinel R.1 stand-off ground surveillance radar
aircraft as a possible solution to bridge the UK's maritime patrol capability
gap, a company official told IHS Jane's on 12 September.


Head of Airborne Solutions for Raytheon UK, Paul Francis, said that the idea
of utilising the wide-area surveillance aircraft for maritime patrol has been
presented to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and that there has been a favourable
response to the concept. However, he conceded that this is wholly dependent on
the platform being retained post the Strategic Defence and Security Review in
2015.


"There is a lot of interest [within the MoD], but bear in mind the current
situation [regarding plans to retire the aircraft in 2015]," he said at the 2013
DSEI defence and security exhibition in London.


Although the Sentinel's dual-mode ground moving target indicator synthetic
aperture radar was designed for, and is wholly geared towards, overland use,
Francis explained that it would only require a software change to make it
compatible with maritime operations also.


These changes should enable the Sentinel to detect surface vessels and
potentially submarine periscopes, and additional sensors could be fitted to
further boost the platform's maritime surveillance capability. Francis stressed,
however, that the Sentinel would not have an offensive anti-surface vessel or
anti-submarine capability, and would be purely a maritime surveillance platform.



According to Francis, such a multirole platform would be an ideal fit for the
UK Royal Air Force (RAF), which has not been able to field a maritime patrol
capability since the government retired its Hawker Siddeley Nimrod MR.2 and
cancelled its BAE Systems Nimrod MRA.4 replacement in 2010.

[Just This Once...]

It's not just the amazing technology or unparalleled view from the air that provides such a jaw-dropping capability from a fast jet. The real magic is provided by the Imagery Analysts that can pick-out key information that cannot be replicated by anyone who has not undergone years of training:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02821/Bourne-End_2821834c.jpg

IA Comment: Low lying ground adjacent to river is affected by flood waters. End of Comment.

I understand they have recently been approached by the woodland bear proctologists and by a new religious survey group for the Apostolic Palace.

Anyway, the Sentinel article was pretty good.:ok:

[PFMG]

Surely the IA comment should relate to intelligence gleaned from other sources or previous knowledge/experience rather than the straight interpretation of the image.

[Madbob]

I would have thought in the case of flooding there was plenty of HUMINT available........

The only problem being that the EA, local and central government was not willing to listen, and act, on it weeks ago.....:sad::sad::sad:

Now that the floods, wx and damage has come to the attention of the PM the powers that be are finally switching from continuous transmit to receive.

Still, it does I suppose provide the govt with hopefully a justification to keep such capabilities as Sentinel and RAPTOR......not that I can see the strain on the defence budget being eased in any way. Maybe the CAS can use this to stop the disbanding of 5 Sqn when Op Herrick is complete.

MB

[Biggus]

MB,

Maybe the CAS can use this to stop the disbanding of 5 Sqn when Op Herrick is complete

The cynic (or should that be realist?) in me might say that is the reason they are being used in the first place, or at least the reason for the high profile BBC coverage....


......a bit like the E-3D fleet doing their one and only deployment to Afghanistan just before SDSR2010.

[PFMG]

The cynic (or should that be realist?) in me might say that is the reason they are being used in the first place, or at least the reason for the high profile BBC coverage....

Can I assume that is also your theory as to why they were used in Libya and Mali?

[Al R]

Unmissable one off opportunity to check for pot plantation loft-space thermal plumes, declared unoccupied residences, tv licences and dodgy tax discs.

I hope that the 5 sqn xmas beer call fund gets a good price for the data. :ok:

[Offenbach]

Shame it wasn't a 617 Squadron Tonka - they do have some 'previous'
with large amounts of water....

..hat, coat, door....

[Cows getting bigger]

PS. apologies for the mis-ident to the 54(R) Sqn guys who seemed to be actually flying the mission.

[Al R]

Always easier to be cynical or to snipe, but fair play and chapeau to them.

William and Harry lug sandbags in flooded Datchet - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-02-14/william-harry-sandbags-datchet/)

[Trim Stab]

It's not just the amazing technology or unparalleled view from the air that provides such a jaw-dropping capability from a fast jet. The real magic is provided by the Imagery Analysts that can pick-out key information that cannot be replicated by anyone who has not undergone years of training:

I am sure it can provide an amazing images - but how useful are they in planning flood response and defence? Can the images be used to produce accurate topographical maps? Does the RAF even have the processing capability to make topographic maps with the data? Can the radar technology see through vegetation and map the ground contours underneath (something that LIDAR can do)?

My best guess is that it can't do these things as it was designed with different objectives. If it just takes detailed 2D images without rectification to a datum (e.g. WGS84) then I can't see it being very useful for flood response planning.

Lots of good PR for the RAF though!

[Ventre A Terre]

JTO. Check your PM's please.

[kintyred]

It's a shame that there are no satellites monitoring the UK....must be the only part of the planet with no coverage.

[Al R]

This GR4 crew is taking the low level recce requirements a bit far though.

Http://www.echelonwealthcare.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/gr4.bmp

[Rakshasa]

Are they stalking that panda in the bedroom window? Must've heard about the giraffe...

[CoffmanStarter]

"Slightly below glide path ... adjust you're rate if decent" ;)

[Al Murdoch]

Would it be unreasonable to suggest that they should park up their Sentinals and Tornados, jump in a tilly and join in with the boys and girls lugging sandbags around the countryside? That might actually be a useful contribution.

[Archimedes]

This is just a guess, but d'you know what, Al? I suspect that someone involved in dealing with the floods at a fairly senior level, on receipt of the offer of recce assets, consulted with his/her experts as to whether they might be useful, was told 'yes' and then replied 'That'd be great, thank you, when can we start?'

I somehow doubt that CAS, or AOC 2Grp has been generating these sorties simply because they'll play well in the press while those dealing with the flooding pause momentarily to ask 'WTF is that all about, then?' as they see the imagery.

[dragartist]

Not only are GCHQ listening to our mobile phone calls; the RAF are taking pictures of our back gardens.

[higthepig]

The requirement for airborne int was raised by CIVPOL earler this week, nothing to do with the RAF toting their capabilities. Good on those who are supporting, perhaps the keyboard warriors may reflect on what they are doing........

[Trim Stab]

I somehow doubt that CAS, or AOC 2Grp has been generating these sorties simply because they'll play well in the press while those dealing with the flooding pause momentarily to ask 'WTF is that all about, then?' as they see the imagery.

Well I am fairly sceptical that the images they are producing are genuinely useful for flood defence and response planning. They will show the extent of the flooding - which might be slightly useful for political purposes - but unless they provide detailed (down to a few cm vertical resolution) topographical data (accurately distinguishing vegetation elevation from ground elevation) they will give very little engineering information about how best to respond to the potential for further flooding, or how best to alleviate the existing flooding.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong - but I suspect this is more PR and politics than a genuinely useful response to the problem. But if the Sentinel does have the capability to produce topographical data sufficiently accurate for civil engineering purposes from a high-altitude high-speed SAR platform then there is some serious money to be made...

[Al Murdoch]

This is just a guess, but d'you know what, Al? I suspect that someone involved in dealing with the floods at a fairly senior level, on receipt of the offer of recce assets, consulted with his/her experts as to whether they might be useful, was told 'yes' and then replied 'That'd be great, thank you, when can we start?'

You haven't spent much time in the armed forces, have you?

[Just This Once...]

But if the Sentinel does have the capability to produce topographical data sufficiently accurate for civil engineering purposes from a high-altitude high-speed SAR platform then there is some serious money to be made...

One thinks the US would have a say in the matter, so no ability to sell anything. As for the fidelity, well modern radar exploitation methods are rather special. The ability to identify incredibly small changes is stunning.

[tanimbar]

This data gathering exercise will be very useful to calibrate existing flood models developed by UK agencies (CEH - hydrology, Wallingford) over the last decade or so.

Now the boffins will know where the water flows - the RAF is supplying the images. Match the RAF images to LIDAR etc. models and you have water depth, extent etc. Overfly for a couple of days and you have temporal information (flood advance, rate of, and then ebb).

All that 'real-world' information can be plugged into the existing models to greatly improve them. Could save £s and lives.

It isn't a PR exercise! It has great potential. Someone is thinking clearly in this emergency - good for them.

Regards, Tanimbar

[Trim Stab]

One thinks the US would have a say in the matter, so no ability to sell anything. As for the fidelity, well modern radar exploitation methods are rather special. The ability to identify incredibly small changes is stunning.

I don't doubt that the Sentinel technology is very acute at identifying very small historical changes as that is what it was designed to do - but flood defence planning requires calculating where water is likely to go in the future as the level rises - that requires first very precise topographical sensing (generally using LIDAR point clouds which has an accuracy of a few cm - and importantly can distinguish between reflections from foliage and reflections from the terrain below) and then some clever processing to "bend" the point-cloud image to a geo-reference. It is very different technology to what you are referring to.

The data gathering technique may well have application for civil engineering, but the data processing methodology is not the same.

[Trim Stab]

Tanimbar - yes I agree with that - as a means of calibrating the accuracy of previously calculated modelling, the images could be useful - as long as there is a means to process the imagery to a common datum. Mind you, commercial satellite photographs are also good enough to use as calibration data.

It rather depends whether Sentinel can provide calibration imagery at times when satellites cannot do so.

[Haraka]

I'm sorry,
All of this can be done easily and cheaply using CSI ( Commercial Satellite Imagery) and a couple of Post-Grad Remote Sensing Students.
Call me old fashioned , BUT:
This is not the sort of tasking that traditionally trained militarily imagery interpreters should be productively employed on in place of their primary duties.
Although they can of course do it.

Haraka out.

[Just This Once...]

Sentinel crews get called upon to do this kind of thing in the operational environment.

They also do training in the UK.

They do more than a satellite can do.

Then the EA asked them to focus their training in a certain area.

What is there to criticise?

It really is no effort for the platform or the crews but it is a very big deal for the EA to get access to classified technology on demand.

Meanwhile we have people on the ground working very very hard - these are the people that should have our admiration.

[NutLoose]

Well said....

[TheWizard]

Are there many of them sitting around ready to spring into action then Haraka?
If so perhaps you could pass on your observations to the Env Agency and the Government. I'm sure they hadn't considered any of that BEFORE asking for help and advice from the MOD.

Is it the bad weather that is making everyone so frigging cynical and pessimistic or is it just Britain today in general?

Well done to ALL of the boys and girls, whatever flavour and whatever support they are giving.

I would love to know if all of those posting their pearls of wisdom have done anything to go and help out with the flood situation? There is plenty that can be done from filling sandbags to doing shopping for those that are stranded or homeless. I can even point you in the right direction if you like.
(there are plenty that have pitched in so this is not aimed at you obviously)

[Haraka]

Are there many of them sitting around ready to spring into action then Haraka?
If so perhaps you could pass on your observations to the Env Agency and the Government. I'm sure they hadn't considered any of that BEFORE asking for help and advice from the MOD.

Quite right , I agree from experience, ,I'm sure they probably didn't.

[Trim Stab]

It really is no effort for the platform or the crews but it is a very big deal for the EA to get access to classified technology on demand.

Meanwhile we have people on the ground working very very hard - these are the people that should have our admiration.

JTO - I am not demeaning the efforts or motivation of anybody involved in this operation - my interest is purely in the relevance of the technology to resolving the current problems in the UK.

As Jayminand argued, I agree completely that an accurate measure of the extent of flooding is primordial in calibrating models that have been previously developed using LIDAR and other geometric survey data. If Sentinel can outperform satellite imagery by flying "on-demand" and when atmospheric conditions are not conducive to satellite imagery, then all the better. But what really interests me is whether it can produce data accurate enough to challenge LIDAR or other conventional cloud-point imaging processes.

[Haraka]

Oh please,
Spare me this classified technology horse whistle.
Basically ,you use digital terrain mapping (DTM) modelling to get the shape of the land (LIDAR if if you want to be very clever and support your local LIDAR capability or company).RADAR, ground truthing or traditional imagery stereo comparison if not.
Then you use local historical rainfall data records to obtain ( at no effort to yourself) derived likely 10,20, 50, 100yr and RMF ( Recurrent Massive Flood ) contour flood levels. These levels you will then have as overlays on local DTM contour data.

Then you overlay the current commercial satellite imagery layer ,showing urbanisation, over your contour data and you can see the threat areas.

The , when it happens , it is a simple change detection exercise to lay the actual imagery over the historical model and read off the changes.
And , yes, I have done it for real , also using radar when cloud obscured the AOI.

[Trim Stab]

So a waste of taxpayers' money? I think we should know...

[DCThumb]

Trim stab,

In a word.

No.

[Easy Street]

Tornados and Sentinel fly routine training sorties. These aircraft would have flown regardless of this tasking, so no extra cost. In fact I'd wager the Tornado task actually SAVED the taxpayer some money because the aircraft probably only flew once, instead of a more usual 2 or 3 times that day (due to the time needed to load and unload the pod). However, putting a BBC crew on the Sentinel probably cost a couple of WSOps a valuable sortie...

[Trim Stab]

However, putting a BBC crew on the Sentinel

If Sentinel needs justification I'd prefer that it be reconfigured to fly the Royal Family around on worthwhile worldwide official engagements with huge roundels on the wings and a Union Jack on the tail instead of farting about wasting public money on scientifically worthless stunts promoted on "Gay News" such as this one...

I'm with Haraka entirely on this - I don't believe a word of the RAF/Government PR on this story.

RAF PR should get real - in the internet age they can't mislead people with "top secret" gobbledygook anymore...

[Hydromet]

I don't know how it is in the UK, or how much real time information is available elsewhere, but in the many floods I've been involved with, uncorrected aerial photography has proven invaluable for immediate operations, and even seeing where the flood is going in remote areas. I appreciate that the UK may not have many of those, but I'm sure that it would still be fairly useful.

As for it's use later on, ground truthing it is not a problem, and it is a valuable extension to the usually limited systematically recorded data.

[Laarbruch72]

If Sentinel needs justification I'd prefer that it be reconfigured to fly the Royal Family around on worthwhile worldwide official engagements


And you know very well that's not possible without a complete and extensive de-role and refit of the aircraft costing goodness knows how much. A current Sentinel airframe is not just a standard Global Express airframe anymore, and restoring each airframe as such is probably more expensve than buying a new one.

[Archimedes]

You haven't spent much time in the armed forces, have you?

Not really - but I was AOC 2 Grp's DS in his Staff College days.

Does that count?


But apologies for being sarcastic - I posted mid-chunter about a contractor sending out missives about the vital importance of wearing name badges at all times, somehow giving slightly more critical matters a stiff ignoring, and this time didn't do my usual trick of completing the post and then deleting all of it and writing a better one.

The more measured posting you should've got would have suggested that there was a request for this support (rather than it being simple grand-standing as some wish to imply) for reasons articulated by others.

[Think Defence]

Did you guys know the Environment Agency operate their own airborne mapping capability?

https://www.geomatics-group.co.uk/geocms/

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5290/5265946342_bf65026d25_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/environment-agency/5265946342/)
The Environment Agency's LIDAR plane (http://www.flickr.com/photos/environment-agency/5265946342/) by Environment Agency (http://www.flickr.com/people/environment-agency/), on Flickr

You can follow them on Twitter

https://twitter.com/EnvAgencyGeomat

They look pretty busy!

Wonder how the RAF is integrating with them

[Lima Juliet]

Think Defence

From your link...

We offer a variety of elevation data products, all with a vertical accuracy in the range of 5cm to 15cm, with spatial resolutions ranging from 25cm to
2 metres.

I suspect this is somewhat amateurish compared to some of the capabilities offered by the mil. Nice toy, though! :ok:

LJ

[sunnybunny]

Just in case you thought the Navy wasn't helping

http://www.jaguarforum.co.uk/attachments/f49/6923d1392241876t-any-sad-flooding-stories-out-there-floods-what-floods.jpg (http://www.jaguarforum.co.uk/attachments/f49/6923d1392241876-any-sad-flooding-stories-out-there-floods-what-floods.jpg)

[Think Defence]

Thanks Leon, 5cm vertical accuracy sounds pretty impressive to me

I wrote about this over the weekend

There is a wide and deep commercial and public sector market for airborne mapping using a wide range of technology, everyone from the Ordnance Survey to the Environment Agency and a tonne of commercial providers in between.

The UK is one of the most accurately mapped places on the planet.

Just wonder what exactly the RAF bring to the mix that satisfies the 3 guiding principles for MoD involvement; Last Resort, Lack of Capability and Urgency

Interesting stuff this

[Haraka]

The 5cm vertical accuracy would be off the LIDAR ( AFAIK a sensor not carried by any operational RAF asset)
From the EA site I see they are using RADARSAT 2 to get cloud free imagery to update their mapping.
ASARS 2 imagery from the U-2 has been used in support of civil disaster monitoring, so presumably a similar application could be derived from the Sentinel product.

PS Just read this little gem from HMG regarding the use of servicemen to check flood defences:

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has announced that more than 200 personnel from the Royal Navy, Army and RAF will be trained by the Environment Agency over the next week to act as flood defence assessors.

"As we bring our troops back from Afghanistan and from Germany, we would like to see the military playing a bigger role in this kind of homeland resilience task in the future."

So when you're trudging around the dykes in the p*ssing rain lads remember:


You are "Flood defence assessors, playing your role in homeland resilience".

:}

[Engines]

Guys,

Just thought I'd post this one from the Somerset levels:

Actually, to be honest, we don't need Sentinel here. We know where the flood water is. It's in the same frigging places that it's appeared in for around 600 years now. The difference is that it's not draining away like it used to.

And that is down to lack of maintenance of the Somerset Levels drainage systems started by the Romans, expanded by the Saxons, developed in the Middle Ages, massively upgraded in the 17th Century, just about cracked by the Victorians and kept running by local Drainage Boards until 2005.

That's about when the Environment Agency declared that the Levels were 'natural wetlands' and should be allowed to return to their 'natural state'. The then Head of the Agency declared that she would be happy to see 'limpet mines attached to every pumping station on the Levels'. I rather think that Somerset has had enough high tech help from the 'centre'.

Down here, we don't need Sentinel. We need sandbags now, pumps tomorrow and dredging machinery soon afterwards. Less glamorous I know, but effective.

Best regards as ever (and heartfelt thanks to the local marines and sailors who are doing a magnificent job 24/7)

Engines

[M609]

Same story in Norway. For the last 2-300 years farmers and industry has extracted gravel from rivers and flood plains. Suddenly that became a big environmental no-no, and was prohibited.

....fast forward 20 years, and the rivers are clogged up, and floods create much more damage than before. And the rules where reversed.

Environmentalists really are from mars it seems.

[Archimedes]

Quite. Mrs Archi is a Somerset girl and made this very point about the (mis)management of the Levels which saw centuries of experience thrown out in a 'we've got qualifications, how could we not know more?' fashion...


Hope that your need for sandbags declines swiftly, Engines (although from here in Oxon, we're told that plywood boards with a silicon based impregnating material are a better option...)

[Heathrow Harry]

you don't need fully corrected and interpreted imagery for this song & dance - just where the damn water is, where there are landslips and where trees are down

We're not planning to launch a cruise missile at them (are we?)

[BikerMark]

"We're not planning to launch a cruise missile at them (are we?) "

Might boil off some of the water...

[Melchett01]

It might be the conspiracy theorist in me, but has anybody else noticed that these floods tie in with 617's operational stand down - après moi le deluge ?!

[Geezers of Nazareth]

They're up again this morning (the Sentinel, that is).