The ticking time bomb in regional aviation

[emergency000]

As the end of my apprenticeship with QF loomed large in mid-2013, I was on the lookout for jobs outside of Q, in case I wasn't offered anything with the company. In my hunt, I found a rather disappointing theme: almost every operator from the airlines to the regional operators and even down to the bug-smashing GA operators, want LAMEs, not AMEs. And to a degree, I can see why too. Why pay an AME for the 5+ years of non-certifying work it may take him to gain a license (and, of course, paying a LAME to certify that work at the same time), when you can just hire a LAME and he'll both do the work AND certify it? (Yes that's a simplistic kind of statement, but you get the idea)

It seems to me that CASA has created a "top heavy" system, in which so much rides on the LAMEs that the AMEs are considered by many to be expendable. Or worse, a waste of time and money. But if the industry as a whole, from the flight levels to GA and ag operators don't pull their collective heads out of the sand, they're setting their own trap. If you believe the numbers, the average age of LAMEs in Australia is in the mid-50s and increasing. Which means we can expect to see roughly 50% of the LAME workforce in Australia retire over the next 10-15 years. 10-15 years that young AMEs like myself could spend working, studying and gaining experience on the tools and, most likely, gain a license in that timeframe. If the industry at large recognized that today's AMEs are tomorrow's LAMEs, then chances are there'd be plenty of jobs out there for young up-and-coming AMEs to step into and continue their careers.

My take on it (and it's a somewhat cynical view, I admit) is that no one in the industry seems twilling to take the monetary hit that's required to provide an AME with the workplace and experience to gain a license. At a ballpark figure of $50-60,000 per year wages and say an average of 5 years to gain a license, that makes the average AME cost between $150-300,000 to become a LAME (to say nothing of paying a LAME perhaps one and a half to twice that to certify during that same period).

What doesn't seem to be recognized is that, once at that level, that LAME will put that much and more back into the industry, including the inestimable value of the human lives who travel on the aircraft he maintains. It seems obvious from the deafening silence from CASA on the issues of licensing that they have their rose-coloured glasses pretty firmly fastened, as well as a pair of ear-muffs that any ramp worker would be proud to own!

Seeing as any actual help to individuals and operators seems to not be forthcoming from the government or the regulators, I believe it is, once again, up to the industry to help itself. It is my belief that ultimately, if every operator across the broad spectrum that is Australian aviation takes a small hit for the future of aviation, it will spread the load and lessen that monetary hit accordingly.

And just think: the cost of the industry NOT doing something now could be catastrophic. In 10 years, it will already be too late.

I welcome your thoughts.

Cheers,
John

[Horatio Leafblower]

if every operator across the broad spectrum that is Australian aviation takes a small hit for the future of aviation, it will spread the load and lessen that monetary hit accordingly.

I am not sure how the little guys can take that hit?

Mate the small operators all rely on MROs to do maintenance for them and frankly its a struggle to get the aeroplanes out the door and back into the air, legally and on time, with less squarks than they went in with. We don't exactly have time to concern ourselves with anything beyond the next 100 hourly.

I have seen our MRO hire several guys and try to train them up, pay their tech fees, pay them to attend tech, give them cheap use of aeroplanes and then watch them bugger off to the next highest bidder.

The shortage of LAMEs is already biting hard in country areas :ugh:

[mattyj]

Does an AME not do any productive work during the 5 year training period to ameliorate his/her training costs/salary?

[Wunwing]

I was an apprentice at Qantas in the 60s.Like many others I graduated from my apprenticeship as a B707 LAME.

Many years later I was involved in preparing a submission to the Productivity Commission enquiry on Airline Deregulation. One of the questions was what do airlines produce? At the time I was unpopular with the "powers" when our submission included tradesmen and LAMEs. My point being that once the airlines became deregulated, unless Government put in place alternative training methods, the deregulated airlines would cut cost including staff training.

Like many things mentioned at the time our submission was ignored and our forecast has come to pass.

Wunwing

[dubbleyew eight]

to become a licenced mechanic you complete a schedule of experience and pass a bundle of casa exams.

why in all the time you have been working haven't you done any of that?????

only large organisations can have AME's working under a Licenced AME.
out in the boonies it is all single man setups working on small aeroplanes.
obviously you can only employ licenced people in the typical small setup.

so it is time YOU got off your arse and got licenced.

what are you? a slow learner?

the future for you guys is CASA's EASA synchronisation allowing people like Qantas to use cheap east european maintenance shops for all their work and australian guys all going out the door.
I'd be pissed too.

[Fantome]

EMERG . . .. . that's a very good summation you have written of a desperate and worsening situation. Full marks. It is an appeal from the heart, and could do with the widest circulation throughout the industry and to those with an in to the
buggers who are supposed to be steering the ship of state out of shoal waters.

Hope Phelan, Sandilands , Stackhouse et al, get to read it.

[Oktas8]

At a ballpark figure of $50-60,000 per year wages and say an average of 5 years to gain a license

Why is an unlicensed apprentice (albeit an intelligent and motivated one) being paid $50 to $60k p.a.?

Something is out of kilter here.

Possibly wages might play a part in the decision whether to hire an AME for vocational training...

[Horatio Leafblower]

I would echo W8's question: Why after 5 years do you not have a licence yourself?

I have LAMEs telling me they are worth $3000/week to work in GA (they obviously don't want the job...) :hmm:

[Wunwing]

My understanding of how it goes now in airlines is that to get a license you have to meet a schedule of experience. That means your employer has to move you around the whole engineering system over the apprenticeship to meet the schedule. If your employer doesn't do this or wont do this then you can't meet the criteria.

As well, you have to pass the exams.For heavy/complex aircraft at least that now requires a formal process. No private study allowed by CASA. If your employer doesnt cooperate with suitable time off, not to mention financial contribution, then how is that done?

It seems to me that the whole process over the last few years in the airline side of things is to discourage or outright prevent AMEs obtaining LAME status.All they want and encourage is A qualifications from ex baggage drivers etc.

Wunwing

[Old Akro]

I have LAMEs telling me they are worth $3000/week to work in GA

These guys have the same dose of reality coming at them like a freight train that the Holden & Toyota guys are now discovering.

[Wunwing]

Old Akro.
Who are you referring to,LAMEs in general,or Qantas AMEs?

Wunwing

[emergency000]

dubbleyew_eight and Horatio: I'm not sure what gave you blokes the idea that I've been a qualified AME for 5 years or even that I've been in the industry for 5 years! I completed my apprenticeship in August last year having started it in Feb 2010, so I'm only just completing my 4th year in the industry now and have been a qualified AME (ie. not an apprentice) for almost 6 months.

I'm also not sure how familiar you are with the way licensing works. First, you start your apprenticeship and have to complete a bunch of theory subjects and exams (in my case, it was a total of 30 subjects) and complete a Journal of Experience that takes you through all the areas of the aircraft systems, as well as core skills. Once you complete that, you've passed your Certificate IV and hold a trade certificate, making you an AME (not a LAME).

Under the Part 66 system, to become a LAME you then have to sit another bunch of exams (around 5) plus complete another bunch of Journal sheets to gain a Diploma. This can then allow you to get a non-type rated license. Then, if you want to get a Group 20 (ie. type rated license), you have to complete ANOTHER journal of experience called an OJT book for each aircraft type, as well as a type course for that aircraft.

So it's not something that one can exactly knock over in 6 months. I am currently making my way though the Diploma pathway with a view to obtaining a non type rated license within the next 6 months. But the way the current system works, it's next to impossible to complete your apprenticeship and already have a license of any type, especially if you've done your apprenticeship with an airline, where you're railroaded through the course with no opportunity for extra studies (because that's extra cost to the airline).

[emergency000]

Horatio: in regards to your first reply, I hear what you're saying about small operators using MROs. The reality is though that most small MROs and operators that conduct their own engineering are only taking on LAMEs, not AMEs. But my question is this: when the airlines start losing their LAMEs to retirement, where will they turn for "ready made" LAMEs? 2 places: overseas or the bush. What outback LAME could resist $100k plus wages and all the perks of working for an airline?

mattyj: certainly an AME does productive work. However, none of the spanner work he/she does is work that can't be carried out by a LAME. And the AME can't certify the work, so the MRO needs a LAME, regardless of whether they have an AME or not.

Oktas8: apprentices don't tend to be on $50-60k unless they're an adult apprentice working for a major airline (and getting some overtime). However, I'd guesstimate the going rate for a qualified AME is somewhere in the region of $45-55k or a bit higher, depending on the work and shifts, etc.

[Old Akro]

Who are you referring to,LAMEs in general,or Qantas AMEs?

I was really referring to airline LAME's that think they are worth $150k in GA. The truth is that they are above the international market for airline LAME's at that figure and above the price (salary) of comparable other fields of endeavor.

But, it probably applies to all of the above

Guys at Holden & Toyota are now discovering that now that they have killed the goose that laid the golden egg they can't command the rates they have been getting at Elizabeth & Altona in ordinary industry.

Historically, Australia was more productive than moist of the world because we tend to make do with less by being innovative and covering a wider range of skills. This meant that we could pay people more. But now that the full enterprise agreements of Holden & Toyota have become public, we can see exactly how many inefficiencies and hidden costs have worked themselves into the system. If we are going to have the same (or worse) work productivity as the rest of the world, we must accept the same pay rates as the rest of the world. We are no longer an isolated Island.

[Wunwing]

I don't think LAMEs are worth that in your average GA outfit but in airlines thats a different story.The Swissair MD11 final bill was about $4 billion. Who knows what the Airfrance crash in the Atlantic will finally cost? Both of these accidents had a major engineering component to the end result.

One of the problems with non airline trained management when they find themselves in Aviation is that they are confronted (by their standards) with a large number of staff,pilots and engineers who are well paid.
However the same managers expect to be well paid for responsibilities that in many cases are no where as onerous as those who fly and certify aircraft. A good case of double standards.

I have a number of Australian friends who are working overseas who are very well paid and I'm not convinced that airline engineering costs are cheaper overseas if you assume the same standard of overhaul which by definition includes the same level of LAME supervision.

All this is right off the original topic. How are we to provide qualified LAMEs for GA in general and regional GA specifically,articularly when mining is soaking up so many qualified people?The situation is made worse by the B1,B2 thing which is really downgrading B2 LAMEs. Why would a B2 LAME go into GA when they can earn far more with less responsibility in medical technology,communications etc? Yet another area that our Governments of both colours having created the problems,have failed to recognise let alone sort out.

Wunwing

[dubbleyew eight]

you have my sympathies mate.

CASA licensing is a total utter cluster****.

about a decade ago I worked with my LAME to build a schedule of experience.
after about 5 years we both independently came to the conclusion that it was an impossibility. the schedule items age out after 4 years.
it matters what not a zot what the quality of the work is, it just matters that the volume of work is completed in the time of a typical apprenticeship.

we gave it all up as a bad joke since it was physically impossible to achieve.
then my LAME died in front of the telly one night.

I have had some, shall we say, rather poor experiences with LAME's since and I maintain my own aircraft. have done for 10 years now.
so I know your problem from the inside.

trouble is that with casa synchronising the regs with easa so that qantas can get rid of all its australian maintenance in favour of cheap east european shops we are all on a hiding to nothing with an idiot regulator doing its best to stuff us all up.
I am told by 3 separate industry sources that qantas is the reason for the easa bollocks.

in an easa synchronised world AME's have absolutely no future unless they can get licenced.

you could not make this any worse if you deliberately tried.
with 40 years experience I can tell you definitively that CASA's incompetence must be put to an end. there is no future otherwise.

[emergency000]

Here's something that the pilots among us may be able to answer: do GA operators have any schemes that give pilots an endorsement or some kind of career advancement and then bonds the pilot to the operator for a period of time?

It's well known that the regions are the place where many pilots will work and build up flight hours, while studying for their ATPL, MECIR, etc. and getting PIC time, NVFR time, etc., then heading off for a job with an airline once they've logged enough minimum hours.

Where pilots have an advantage over engineers is that a freshly minted CPL doesn't (legally) require the supervision and sign-off of a "more licensed" pilot after he flies a leg. Whereas a freshly minted AME has just done 4 years of TAFE and work and STILL is supposed to be supervised and have all his work signed off by a LAME.

My idea is of a kind of "advanced apprenticeship" where a qualified AME is contracted by an MRO for a period of time (say 4-5 years) with the contract stating that by the end of the contract the AME is to have fulfilled all requirements to hold a license. This could then lead to the new LAME being bonded to the organisation for a few more years, logging experience and possibly gaining a type rated license. The question is: would any MRO actually go for that kind of system? Is it something that the aviation industry needs to look into? Or are we, as an industry, simply resigned to importing 457 Visa LAMEs, just like we import pretty much everything else now?

Cheers,
John

[dubbleyew eight]

John you should go and have a serious talk to the regulator about your problems.
Only the regulator can give you a way forward.

one can only hope that you find someone competent in CASA to talk to.

[emergency000]

one can only hope that you find someone competent in CASA to talk to.

Hence why I haven't bothered talking to the regulator yet! :p :ugh:

[Hasherucf]

Is there always one of these threads running on PPrune? Seems to be a lot of LAME haters out there.

Do us GA LAMEs fear EASA coming in ? No we aren't scared of out maintenance being outsourced to Europe or Asia. Do you think are we scared of Toyota/Holden workers. Or a bunch of coffee drinkers from Qantas stealing our jobs?

$3000 a week? Yes I've been paid that and I worked my ass off for it. That was back when I was B1 and now I gained my B2 I expect much more :ok:

Is the apprenticeship scheme screwed ? Sure I don't know anyone in GA that has been licensed under it in the past 3 years (beside the conversion) . In the end I guess I will benefit more and more from this ;)

There was a reference to new stats on the LAME work force in the magazine that comes with the Av trader. Anyone know where this can be found ?

[emergency000]

Not sure who you're referring to as LAME haters, Hasherucf. I'm certainly not hating on the LAMEs, in fact I'm aspiring to become a LAME myself. The trouble is, it's the old catch-22: everyone wants LAMEs and no one want to train AMEs up to become LAMEs. So where am I expected to get SOE/OJT from to get my license?

The point you made about not being worried about GA work being outsourced or ex-QF LAMEs taking your jobs is a pertinent one and one reason why I'm trying to get out of the airlines and into a gig with a GA/ag/regional operator. But, you guessed it! They all want/need LAMEs, not AMEs.

[Hasherucf]

Well emergency000 my best advice is be prepared to move. I was lucky enough to have a great apprenticeship in a country town under the old system .Since then I have moved for experience and made some great friends along the way .

Never had an issue filling a SOE.If you are willing to throw yourself into the work.



dubbleyew eight wrote:

about a decade ago I worked with my LAME to build a schedule of experience.
after about 5 years we both independently came to the conclusion that it was an impossibility. the schedule items age out after 4 years.
it matters what not a zot what the quality of the work is, it just matters that the volume of work is completed in the time of a typical apprenticeship.


I don't get that dubbleyew_eight . Sure people sometimes struggle to get SOE in some category's and I don't know many AME's that have had a complete SOE at the end of four years. Regardless if its volume or quality you still work the four years ! If you are spending more time on quality you can log that ......simple.

You can log anytime working on aircraft. So if its a production environment is very easy to get .If is a restoration workshop you might struggle on areas like scheduled maintenance.

Hardest part i find is getting apprentices to fill out SOE.Most are left with a back log at the end of 4 years and that results in a day of signing for me :-(

[dubbleyew eight]

the addition to the trader is called Airwaves.
if all else fails find a private owner.
we all get one sent to us.



how can you not understand the SOE problem?

the problem is that entries older than 4 years are no longer counted.
you must accumulate all the experience in a 4 year period.
but of course very soon now all this will be irrelevant.

[hiwaytohell]

W8 entries older than 4 years are no longer counted.
you must accumulate all the experience in a 4 year periodWhere do you get this???

There is no such limitation for a CAR 31 licence. Actually you need a minimum of 4 years with at least 2 years on category (AAC9.91)

And for a Part 66 licence your SOEs must be converted to licence privileges by 27 June 2015. Even so your SOEs are still good for RPL after 27 June 2015 with one of the Part 147 organisations, which is where you will need to go after June 2015.

[Hasherucf]

The JOE is more about collecting competencies and not so much about getting "hours". The assessors seem to like to see at least 3 entries in each competency.

It does seem a little over complex but seen 4 apprentices deal with it now.

The old SOE system had some quirks . Like gaining 100 hours in turbochargers, 50 hours in radar system or 50 hours in Rad Alt . Almost impossible!

The four year restriction I haven't heard about?

[emergency000]

The issue I have is that I started my apprenticeship right around the time CASA started transitioning from SOE to OJT/JOE. So I have a Journal which I had to complete to get my Cert IV, however I don't know that it counts for licensing as it's not an OJT book. Otherwise, I'd likely have a completed OJT book already and simply have to complete my diploma exams.

Unless you know any different, Hasherucf? Does the Journal count towards OJT for licensing? I can't find any mention of JOE in the Part 66 MOS.

Cheers,
John

[Aviater]

emergency000

I do think that the current system for getting licensed is ridiculous, a joke, a fas, so far up itself that no one can see where they're going. Not to mention the fact that you speak to 3 different CASA staff and you'll get 3 different versions of how to become a LAME and what that LAME's privileges are. But also speak to 3 different 147 schools and you'll get 3 different sets of criteria with 3 different prices!

I have the emails that can show as fact, CASA's part 66 team have little to no understanding of part 66 licenses, and when they don't know they make it up and when you ask again, they pass it on to the next person, who doesn't know and subsequently takes a guess.

CASA is negligent in regards to AME licensing in Australia and I truly believe that in 3 or 4 weeks with a hand picked team of LAME's and AME's I could easily come up with an AME licensing framework far superior to what is now a massive irreversible shamozzle. I also thought the old system was fine, it just needed updating, not throwing out.

However I have to disagree with some of your other points. I was one of those fools who finished my apprenticeship with a draw full of worksheets and couldn't be bothered doing my SOE. It seemed so painful at the time, but compared to today's criteria it was a walk in the park.

Despite being an AME only, I worked at many different shops over a 10 year period and when I walked in the front door the first thing manager/owner would say was "What licenses have you got?"

BUT, when I explained my experience, my background and my skillsets, they always gave me a shot. I never had a problem getting a job as an AME. The industry needs AME's. Experienced labour that can get work done without the high cost of a LAME.

Getting licensed in GA was easy. Do the work, put in the time and it was an eventuality.

Getting licensed in the airlines in today's environment however, is near on impossible. That my friend is a very long and narrow pathway that is often difficult to follow.

I'm booked on another type course this year for an airline in Australia and in my opinion it's a case of right place, right time, right attitude.

Unless of course you buy your way in. Somehow build enough SOE and or pay for your own type course and buy the PCT. Even then, it'd be hard to find an airline that's actually hiring where there's not a list of people who know people that would be better suited to the job.

[Arnold E]

the schedule items age out after 4 years

You absolutely 100% sure about that, I know of people that have had licences granted on SOE older that 4 years.:confused:

[emergency000]

Aviater: I agree and also believe that, with a bit of tweaking and polishing, the CAR 30/SOE system would have worked perfectly fine. Sadly we're stuck with this Part 66 :mad: for the foreseeable future, so I've just got to deal with it now.

Despite working in the airlines, I'm not currently planning to pursue a type-rated license at this stage, as it's difficult enough for guys in heavy or base maintenance. For someone like me who works in a line station on foreign carriers, it's all but impossible. I'm actually aiming to get out of the airlines and into GA or something similar but that is extremely difficult, it seems, without a license. I've spoken to a number of operators so far and all of them say the same thing: "We'd like to take you on but what we really need is a LAME." So the "walk up start" thing seems to be a thing of the past. Either that of I've got to start looking in rural NSW or QLD. If you know of any shops that are after a young AME, please PM me to let me know who to call.

As for getting licensed in GA, I'm sure it is easy especially compared to the airlines. I'd be more than happy to do the work, if someone would give me somewhere to do the work!

Cheers,
John

[hiwaytohell]

John; There is quite a bit of misleading information in this thread.

If you are in Melbourne then I suggest you go and talk to the folks at AITC / Kangan TAFE to map you out a plan to get licenced. Take your JOE/SOE's and everything also you have with you.

Don't waste your time with CASA, they can only quote you the regs, it is the Part 147 you need to talk to.

The Part 66 is not as bad as some would have you believe (OK it is badly drafted and was badly executed by CASA)'. But it can be achieved in much shorter time although is more costly than getting a CAR31 licence.

Before you go knocking on any doors you need to know the actions, sequence, cost and time to get licenced. And if you can knock over the easy ones.

If you came to my office looking for a job, sure the first question I would ask is "what licences do you have". If you are only an AME, and if you seemed to have a decent attitude, then the second question would be "how soon can you get licenced". That answer would determine if there were more questions.

Don't be put off that the various Part 147 schools might give you slightly different answers, in the end they can all get you licenced, just for various reasons they have slightly different methods.

[emergency000]

G'day hiwaytohell,

I spoke to one of the LAMEs at work yesterday and before getting his type-rated B1/B2, he held both as non type-rated licenses and had gotten them under the Part 66 system. Basically, he said exactly what you just said: don't deal with CASA, deal with the 147 MTO, they'll do all the admin for you, you just complete your diploma and that's it.

So in terms of how far off getting a license: I've got 2 exams, 2 essays and one competency to fill out. Then wait for CASA to issue the license. So maybe 2 months on my side and who knows how long on CASA's side.

One operator I spoke to recently would have taken me on except that they'd recently lost 1 or 2 LAMEs and were right on the threshold for the LAME:AME ratio.
Cheers,
John

[dubbleyew eight]

arnold e
that is why the LAME and I stopped.
the entries older than 4 years were no longer counted.

if it changed since then ...good.

[emergency000]

So I figured I should provide an update: since my last post, I have attained a non-type rated B2 license. It went reasonably smoothly once I was given a clear pathway to ow from Kangan. I got my Form 465 sent to me just a few weeks before Kangan closed its doors for good.

Now for the fun of getting an initial type rating!

I was told that I Can send my journal that I used in my apprenticeship to somewhere with an approved OJT book like QAC. They then migrate the entries into their OJT book and send through lot back to me. If I have more than the minimminimum required OJT for an initial type, I then sit the type course and get the type added to my license.

BUT I was then told by QAC that there was a question raised with CASA along the lines of any OJT book being approved by the Part 145 AMO, even though the book is produced, checked and approved for the Part 147 MTO! The whole thing seems like a complete lot of skullbuggery as usual. I'm due to call QAC back sometime in the next few days to see of CASA came through with an answer.

I'll keep you posted.
Cheers