Cost sharing

[GMavrick]

Hi guys,


Frist post so be nice I've read a lot on here about cost sharing but need some info off you kind peope...If I have my PPL and type rated on a R44 if you take up some friends on a self fly hire rate of £340 p/h and they give me half toward the cost of the flight I know that's legal and most people do .
But If I have a friend who has an events company and has say 40 guest and as part of the event offered 10 minuet helicopter flights for £50 per person (keep it simple)60 minuets = 6 flights, minimum of 2 people per flight = £600 for the events company.

If I was to hire a R44 for 2 hours (est 30 min travel time each way) @ £340 p/h = £680 and did these 10 minuet fights.And if personally paid for 1 hour of that flight which leaves £340 and that was paid to myself from the events company to cover the helicopter costs Does that count as cost sharing? or is that operating as a commercial pilot? due to members of the public are paying for a service?


Thanks guys, all advice useful.

[206Fan]

GMavrick,

Your first suggestion is fine I believe. If your friends are happy chipping in towards the cost of the flight then happy days!

Your second suggestion is a no go as this requires a Commercial Pilot and a Company who holds an Air Operator Certificate (AOC) to carry out the Commercial Operations!

[Hughes500]

Basically cost sharing is that, but you cant advertise it except within the confines of a flying club.
Also cost sharing means a share so if 4 people in R44 you have to pay 25% if only one you have to pay 50%

[GMavrick]

Thanks I was just thinking of ways to try and get Cheaper hours to build up to CPL ect.


with regards to normal cost sharing if you self hire a R44 are you allowed to fly from the airfield, land (Where you have permission) and then take up 3 friends and they pay there share cash to you is that allowed?
or have they got to come to the airfield pay their share to the flying school then return them to the airfield and that a flight done.


if that's allowed then I could just post on facebook "I have my PPL blah, blah, Need to build up my hours Blah,Blah Can cost share 3 people want to come for a flight £50 each. organise time an place, I hire 44 leave airfield, land pick up friends, fly them round, land and then return to the airfield.


I'm not trying to find loophole...Honnest

[Bravo73]

if that's allowed then I could just post on facebook "I have my PPL blah, blah, Need to build up my hours Blah,Blah Can cost share 3 people want to come for a flight £50 each. organise time an place, I hire 44 leave airfield, land pick up friends, fly them round, land and then return to the airfield.


Nope, that's not allowed because the advertising isn't 'within the confines of a flying club'.



I'm not trying to find loophole...Honnest

Don't worry, you're not the first. The cheapest way to hour build, believe it or not, is probably to buy a cheap* R22, fly the hours that you require and then sell it on again. That does, however, come with other responsibilities and risks though.






* 'Cheap' is a relative term. There isn't really anything cheap in aviation, especially when you're dealing with helicopters.

[Pittsextra]

Why not charge them £100 for a lunch? You all are good friends and at some point go for a ride in a helicopter?

[GMavrick]

Bravo73


What if I was to advertise on a Flying club website/Facebook page and I just happened to share the address/page with people who are not members of club.


I do like the sound of buying my own R22 and then maybe letting my flying school use it for free storage in return (maybe some sort of deal) but then I would need:
£80 - 110K to buy it
insurance
Hangar
Maintenance costs
Fuel


I would keep it to hour build all the way up to FI then I would have my own helicopter to teach or rent out so seems a waste to sell it on.


I do know that if a company was to buy a Aircraft and if someone was employed by that company, if they are employed to be the company Cleaner and are paid for being the company's cleaner if they happen to have a PPL they can fly "for and be paid by the company" for flying.

[Bravo73]

Why not charge them £100 for a lunch? You all are good friends and at some point go for a ride in a helicopter?

Because, under the ANO, that would be illegal.

And, he has already stated that he isn't looking for a loophole.

[chopjock]

Start up a flying club and charge membership fees.
You can then advertise within the club for the flying. :}

[MikeNYC]

In the USA, this would also not fly because you lack a "common purpose" for the flight with each of the paying passengers. Would you happen to do 10 flights of 10mins each, without the passengers? You're not sharing the common purpose of getting to a football game, or visiting friends. A sightseeing flight might fly...but not 10x in a row.

[Pittsextra]

Because, under the ANO, that would be illegal.

And, he has already stated that he isn't looking for a loophole

??? why is having a dinner with some friends and then going for a flight afterwards illegal? and what is the loophole?

So I meet my mother, father and girlfriend.... they buy me lunch, maybe we even stay over in a hotel...at some point we go flying... all illegal?

Edited to add : common purpose might include enjoying the view and as I didn't own a 10 seat aircraft we had to make a few flights. Seriously you've never taken your mates for a short flight???

[Bravo73]

??? why is having a dinner with some friends and then going for a flight afterwards illegal? and what is the loophole?

So I meet my mother, father and girlfriend.... they buy me lunch, maybe we even stay over in a hotel...at some point we go flying... all illegal?

Edited to add : common purpose might include enjoying the view and as I didn't own a 10 seat aircraft we had to make a few flights. Seriously you've never taken your mates for a short flight???

I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

You really know a thread is going somewhere when Pittsextra and chopjock get involved. :rolleyes:

[Pittsextra]

still waiting for the loophole and how the flight is illegal.

[GMavrick]

I think the loophole is like this


"want some lunch? only cost you £100 and afterwards if you want I just happen to have a helicopter with me if you want to come for a flight? but its not related to a £100 lunch at all"


I tried to post ealyier and it said "you will have to wait to see your post" and this post appeared straight away what that about?

[Pittsextra]

Oh in which case if it isn't related to the lunch at all then its legal.

I guess the point is this. If you want to have a big advert suggesting you can pay £X for a 10min flight then that is not legal. However firstly its not the pilot advertising the flights is it - its a 3rd party corporate entity and thus remote from the pilot.

Look at it another way.. what about a wealthy guy in the city with an Augusta 109... he trades equities lets say... and his clients (i.e. people he trades for) give him this business because they like to go shooting/horse racing/watching Formula 1/J Palmer's driving days... They like going shooting with him because he has said 109 and its a jolly good fun...

[GMavrick]

Another way to look at is.


As you said the events company are advertising the flights not me, all I do is rent a helicopter, and my friend says "hey can you take me & some of friends for some short 10 minuet flights at blah blah where he happens to be holding an event and he cost shares the helicopter with me...?

[206Fan]

Augusta 109

You just stung my eyes Pitt!

GMav,

If costs are an issue, why not just hire out the R22?

[GMavrick]

Yes an R22 is good to hire, but if I wanted to Cost Share with friends you more likely to have a group of friends/people who would go for flight rather than just one person on their own.

[Pittsextra]

sorry typo.. although at least its lightened the mood :-)

They went to watch some golf at Augusta in an Agusta...

[Bravo73]

Bravo73


What if I was to advertise on a Flying club website/Facebook page and I just happened to share the address/page with people who are not members of club.



Nope, all the participants have to be members of the Flying Club (for starters). Here's the paragraph out of the ANO (Air Navigation Order):



(c) no information has been published or advertised before the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over must be members of that flying club; and







I do like the sound of buying my own R22 and then maybe letting my flying school use it for free storage in return (maybe some sort of deal) but then I would need:
£80 - 110K to buy it
insurance
Hangar
Maintenance costs
Fuel


I would keep it to hour build all the way up to FI then I would have my own helicopter to teach or rent out so seems a waste to sell it on.

Yep, like I said: "other responsibilities and risks". Although you could probably find an R22 with sufficient hours left for £50-70k.




I do know that if a company was to buy a Aircraft and if someone was employed by that company, if they are employed to be the company Cleaner and are paid for being the company's cleaner if they happen to have a PPL they can fly "for and be paid by the company" for flying.

You're confusing the issue slightly. In that scenario, the aircraft is a private aircraft. The same company would get into a lot of bother if they tried charging passengers for flights.

[thechopper]

If that's a forum for professionals, what is a bunch of numpties doing here?:ugh:

[GMavrick]

I know what you mean bravo about the private aircraft I kind of went off topic, I didn't even see that post was posted it kept saying that the moderator was doing something so I didn't edit it.


and the ANO have the rules pretty much solid. I'm just trying to push those rules to the limit because anyone would run out of friends eventually for cost sharing.
I just want to hour build as economically as possible


but in the "lunch scenario" that could be a work around the rules if it was worded correctly.

[Pittsextra]

GM, whilst not wishing to encourage anyone into dodgy activity it is naïve of some posters to think that pilots are not working around things.

Basically if you take money it isn't and hasn't got anything to do with the flying.

As the legendary Dennis K said on the 500 thread to the effect... you can go flying but its for fun....

[GMavrick]

I don't want to make the impression that I want to EARN money its just re-coupe the cost.


Is not all flying fun?

[Gordy]

I do not know the UK rules, but whenever I look at a situation as to its legality and morality, I ask myself:

"What will the accident report say, and what will the news media say?"

[misterbonkers]

Perhaps the best thing to do here would be just to do the flights - then find out whats happens afterwards? Oh and let us know!

Seriously - I think you're trying to push your luck.

Secondly - Don't buy a 'cheap R22' to hour build on - it might bite you in the backside by the time you've had it for a year, paid for the annual, struggled to sell it, fuelled it, paid for the 50hr service, paid for the insurance, paid for the unscheduled maintenance, paid for hangarage etc. Damage limitation - pay by the hour.

Of course the definition of flight time is 'rotor start' to 'rotor stop' so if you're paying on the Datcon which only works on the lever (such as an R44) you can do quite nicely out of shorter 'airborne' flights and not bothering to slow the rotors quickly with the rotor brake... 0.3 Datcon can quite easily be 0.5 - 0.6 rotors turning. The Bell 47 is another great ship for this as the blades spin for ages and there is often no rotor brake!

[GMavrick]

Gordy,
I had thought about a worst case scenario and the consequences would not be good.


misterb
I'll stay away from the cheap R22 seams like more hassle then its worth, I haven't been asked or asked to do these flight, just came up in convocation about hour building and wanted to know what you folk thought.

[206Fan]

I haven't been asked or asked to do these flight, just came up in convocation about hour building and wanted to know what you folk thought. 11th Feb 2014 16:21Forget about the Events Company. That's not going to work. As I already said, if there's going to be a high number of people at the event, an authorized company with a valid AOC is the only ones able to carry out the flights with a Commercial Pilot!

[Flying-dutch]

If you want to make it cheap and legal in a R44, then become a member of a R44 share, there are a few across the UK.
Compared to self fly hire prices, the R44 share is a cheaper option.
And to make it a bit more cheaper, you can let your friends pay for their part of the fuel (not 100% sure if you can let them pay for their part of the total cost).

Don't know how many hours you need, but if it's from basic PPL to CPL, then it's cheaper to get a R22 rating and go to the USA for a month and build your hours there.
Then come back to the UK with still 10h left and fly your friends around in the R44.
Lots of options but I wouldn't fly on the edge of the CAA rules :=

[SuperF]

Hey Gordy, I read your post and thought that it was my own....

Although the pessimist in my head makes me think how I will explain it to the judge.... Or my Dad and their mum, at their funeral.

If you have to think about it for more than a couple of seconds, it's normally not a very good idea.

[thechopper]

GMavrick

two further options to get someone else to pay are either marry rich or join the military. :suspect:

[thechopper]

GMavrick

I'm just trying to push those rules to the limit

Make sure that doesn't become a habit when you start earning a living in aviation. People with that attitude don't usually last very long.
Best of luck with your cost saving efforts.:E

[Pittsextra]

The best way to help cost wise is to create a corporate entity and register for VAT.

The whole hospitality gig isn't going to last as they will stuggle to market it. However registering for VAT will at least reduce things by 20%.

[Senior Pilot]

This thread has become a Hamster Wheel: for further discussion the posts have been moved to Can you reclaim VAT and/or tax on training costs? (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/198314-can-you-reclaim-vat-tax-training-costs.html)