What's the future of the Red Arrows?

[P6 Driver]

With points raised in the recent SI, what's the way forward for the operation of the Red Arrows?


Business as usual?
A safety stand-down until things are in order?
Other options?
If, as someone suggested on the thread regarding the death of Flt Lt Cunningham, charges may be considered against personnel falsifying records, would it be feasible for those concerned to continue flying with the team (if aircrew, of course) while the pressure of a Court Martial was hanging over them?

The Blue Angels had a safety stand-down in 2011 (for very different reasons) and they have since resumed normal operations and put it behind them. Should the Reds do this, it would certainly have an impact on their repututaion but this has recently been tarnished anyway, so would it make anything worse?

Not their finest hour - or in their terms, perhaps 1.5 hours.

[FJJP]

Here we go again...

The Arrows will just get on with it and put the tragic events of last season behind them, inc the stupid headline grabbing publicity surrounding 2 team members who fell in love.

If no-one bothers to fuel the speculation of their future, the Reds will continue to sell GB and its industry world-wide.

Long live the Red Arrows, special ambassadors for the UK...

FJJP

[Pontius Navigator]

With points raised in the recent SI, what's the way forward for the operation of the Red Arrows?

A safety stand-down until things are in order?

Safety stand-downs are usually called after an accident. What is the relevance of calling a safety stand-down 2 1/2 years after the event?

It would also be naïve to assume that the evidence of improper seat maintenance procedures only emerged during the inquest. Problems revealed during the inquest will have been addressed as soon as they were discovered, had that not been the case do you imagine the Reds would have flown 2 season since?

would it be feasible for those concerned to continue flying with the team

Regardless of the inquest, how many of the 2011 team are still with the Reds in 2014, or even still in the RAF?

[Biggus]

Any sensible question surrounding the future of the Red Arrows must surely be based on how much longer the RAF will continue to operate the Hawk T1, and what will happen to the Reds when these are finally retired, i.e. will replacement aircraft be purchased purely for a display team - rather than on the recent events the OP refers to.

[CoffmanStarter]

Biggus ... Shush don't tell anyone ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/F407_F35A_Red_Arrows.jpg

[glad rag]

Well a 5g display should wow the crowds :E:E:E:E:E

[Daysleeper]

What's the future of the Red Arrows?

Given the SI report perhaps the real question is why do they still exist?

It must have been very tempting for whoever is signing off on their risk to shut the organisation down completely in 2012.

[Tiger_mate]

As I cannot see any economic 'boom' in the forseeable and slowly but surely human longevity v pensions and the NHS is coming home to roost, I reckon the Reds are already on borrowed time and will probably survive until the Centenary in 2018. After which they will either require investing in by way of new aircraft or monetary input to keep the tired T1 flying or they will be axed. Whats that MP doing with a sharpening stone??

I am no fan of this as a suggestion, but the old cliche of British Industry etc etc does not wash anymore. Take the rose tinted ones off people and get your photographs whilst you still can.

[mikip]

The Red Arrows bashing has started early this year!

[Hangarshuffle]

Can't see a feasible replacement aircraft? if there is what, what is it?
Only way forward is major sponsorship? Big Tesco, Shell logos? Like Formula 1 cars perhaps?

[daylyt]

A very sad, ill informed and mindless piece of Reds bashing with a thinly disguised attempt at reputational tarnishing - in whose eyes, the sensationalist tabloids? If you cannot devise a constructive critical argument don't 'bash' out of spite OR jealousy.

[Lockstock]

Given the SI report perhaps the real question is why do they still exist?

The Red Arrows cost £9m a year to run.

What do YOU think they bring in income..? I'm interested to know why you question their existence Daysleeper..?

[Daysleeper]

I'm interested to know why you question their existence Daysleeper..?

Because I have read the latest Service Inquiry report. If you haven't then I suggest you do.

By the way does that £9 million a year cost include the 2 killed, 1 serious injury, 2 minor injuries and 4 aircraft destroyed in 3 years?

[Genstabler]

Daysleeper
Because I have read the latest Service Inquiry report.
Then to widen your understanding of the case perhaps you would also like to read the posts giving the other side of the story before you pass judgement. I take it from your profile that you are not military?

[goudie]

Do other Air Force aerobatic teams have to put up with all this negative support I wonder, or is it just a few RAFAT knockers on PPRuNe?

Can't imagine it happening to 'The Blue Angels', 'Thunderbirds' or "Patrouille de France"

[Flight_Idle]

I think the red arrows give a 'Feel good' factor to the nation, quite apart from trade etc.


I first saw them at Filton airfield when they were flying Gnats & a few months later, I had my first flight in a Chipmunk from the same airfield.


Everything costs money, including 'Deal or no deal & Eastenders' but the red arrows are a British institution now. Beware of public reaction if anyone tries to get rid of them.

[Rigga]

I see lots of heads buried deep in sand here.

I'm pretty certain the issues listed in the MAAIB report may be of concern to the CAA as they allow RAFAT to fly over the public's heads. Surely, if there is a safety culture concern, the CAA could stop them flying in UK air shows and probably the EU ones too?

[A A Gruntpuddock]

"Can't see a feasible replacement aircraft? if there is what, what is it?"

There is only one, the Folland Gnat.

No disrespect to any of the pilots, but the Hawk simply cannot provide the same sort of display.

[Genstabler]

Riggs
I see lots of heads buried deep in sand here.
I think it is your own head that is buried deep in the sand.
The SI report is of an incident that happened two and a half years ago. Much of its findings in respect of "culture" are based on theory, without supporting fact, and have been refuted. Since the incident nearly all personnel on the RAFAT, pilots and supporting personnel have changed. The team has a new chain of command and updated procedures. They have been inspected umpteen times and received glowing reports. They have had two excellent display seasons and several foreign display tours. The RAF clearly believes that they are fit for purpose.
So on what grounds do you think the CAA should now intervene to stop them displaying?

[dervish]

Problems revealed during the inquest will have been addressed as soon as they were discovered,

If they'd been addressed as soon as they were discovered the accident probably wouldn't have happened. As soon as "reluctantly acknowledged by MoD" might be more accurate.

[Flying Lawyer]

The only threat to the Arrows is financial, given the ageing T1 airframes. I am not qualified to assess how serious that threat is.
IMHO the current cost, about £9 million per annum, is worth every penny - and more.

In the meantime:
The Red Arrows will put the tragedies behind them and carry on with the job they do so well.
They will continue to be one of the world’s premier aerobatic teams.
They will continue to enthral crowds all over the world with their magnificent displays.
They will continue to be excellent ambassadors for this country.

Arrows bashers, axe-grinders and tall poppy syndrome sufferers will continue to revel in the criticisms of the team and make tabloid-style comments on PPRuNe, dismissing contrary opinions as a failure to understand.

I read literally hundreds of accident reports during my career as an aviation specialist and still read many out of interest. Having read this report very carefully, I sincerely hope the SI process itself will be reviewed.
Those parts of the report which deal with the seat issue are significantly more impressive than the sections which deal with 'other factors' which did not cause the accident and are not alleged to have contributed to it.
In particular, but not exhaustively, the suggested falsification of records needs to be looked at very carefully to determine if that suggestion is actually justified by the evidence.


FL

[Fareastdriver]

dervish


Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: W. Scotland
Posts: 325

If Scotland gets its independence this problem wont worry you anymore and you can then ban them from Scottish skies.

[dervish]

Ban who? The MoD? The Red Arrows? The people who caused all this carry on in the first place (which was the subject of my post)? The first two, no. The last, yes.

Good to know you're more interested in the independence debate than aircraft safety. :ok:

[Linedog]

Surely the future of the Reds will be unmanned, and controlled from a portaloo at Scampton. :)

[Hangarshuffle]

Price of a couple of ordinary Premiership football players, in Britain in the 21st Century.
I don't believe that figure - Scampton alone must cost an awful lot of money to maintain as a base.


This morning - with hundreds of acres of farmland flooded, urgent rebuilding work on railway lines, fire and police stations closing nationally.... put your hand on your heart and look in the mirror - do we need to spend hard earned UK resident taxpayers money on a flying display team?


Needs to be put to the public.
Or get get it privatised. Everything else is.

[Genstabler]

I don't believe that figure - Scampton alone must cost an awful lot of money to maintain as a base.

The Station acts as parent organisation to 3 resident units, namely the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team (RAFAT), No 1 Air Control Centre (1ACC) and the Mobile Meteorological Unit (MMU). As independent units each have a specific mission to fulfill, which when taken together result in the delivery of a significant defence diplomacy and operational output for this station.

[Tashengurt]

I am intrigued to know what the Reds will fly next. I'm guessing we don't have the spare T2 airframes?
There must be some serious proposals out there. Any ideas?


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[ProSentia]

...There must be some serious proposals out there...

That's a bit optimistic. Do you really think that anyone in the MoD with both cash and influence is seriously looking at this problem?

[Eul0gy]

Why can't they go down the RAF falcons route and be used as part of fast jet training requirements?

[thing]

Put the Blades back in uniform as reservists and contract them to do the flying? They're all ex RAFAT anyway and put up a pretty damn good display, doesn't have to be FJ although I can see the point that they fly Walter's which aren't British.

I thought Big Dave has already said that the RAFAT were staying anyway? Mind you, probably more worrying than him saying nothing at all.

[newt]

I just love this thread! In the last few years we have given up so much capability ie Nimrod, Jaguar and Harrier! Now we are arguing about keeping the Reds! Fast jet pilots must be at a premium these days and should only be deployed on the frontline.

In my book there is no argument that can justify a nine man team in this day and age! Tough I know,but fact!

[Eul0gy]

Exactly newt so paint some hawks mrk 2 red and have it as final trainung before ocu or go down the reservist route as stated above

[thing]

What about the BofB flight, would you disband that as well?

[Roland Pulfrew]

In my book there is no argument that can justify a nine man team in this day and age! Tough I know,but fact!

Really? That's "fact" is it?? With counties like Switzerland, Indonesia; Saudi; Italy France able to maintain a display team, you think the UK should be relegated to a 3rd rate Air Force??

[thing]

With counties like Switzerland, Indonesia; Saudi; Italy France and Yorkshire.

Joking aside, I was having the same thought but you beat me to it.

[Biggus]

RP

I thought here on pprune we had already collectively decided that the UK now has a "3rd rate Air Force". :(


http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/512694-you-know-you-have-become-third-rate-air-force-when.html

[GeeRam]

Or get get it privatised. Everything else is.



:E



http://www.airshows.co.uk/features/2011/top-ten-moments/photos/hawker-hunter-anniversary-01.jpg

[Wander00]

Are there 22 airworthy Hunters - well I only asked......................

[Hangarshuffle]

Who owns them? Seriously, I don't know.
Look, I know people hate us refusniks on this issue, but could not the money saved from the RA be better used purely for defence......by the RAF?
The RN had to give up the Field Gun (this was using up too many skilled people to justify), Royal Tournament (same), the bloody Display Team (same), the whining Sharks (Gazelles).
The country is totally bankrupt, people are simply in denial about it.
If we are going to take peoples hard, hard earned then spend it really wisely.

[thing]

Are there 22 airworthy Hunters - well I only asked......................

Well there are about 10 in a hangar a Scampton, there's at least one at North Weald and I think the rest are at Exeter. So could be done I reckon. Assuming you mean The Loop.

[500N]

"The country is totally bankrupt, people are simply in denial about it.

If the country was totally bankrupt, the UK would not be giving
Foreign Aid to other countries.

[Wrathmonk]

Hangarshuffle

You missed off HMS Victory ..... although the MOD did bung the new owners (HMS Victory Preservation Trust) £25 million as part of the transfer deal.

Curious how this now works given it is still a commissioned ship of the RN.

[Hangarshuffle]

The Govt. are in denial we are bankrupt (it suits them to as they need to be re-elected), the whole country is. The whole country is living on tick, and eventually the bill will have to be paid off.
True about the civil aid bit its something the PM very strongly seems to believe in because he thinks its morally correct to do so and it buys us kudos for the future, and he sees it as an investment for the future but he is still giving away money we do not have.


A compromise from me then. Make the arrows a defensive squadron with proven capability to do something useful in time of national crisis (i.e. shoot down or attack whoever does harm towards us). Bring in some commercial sponsorship for the display days.


You've got to show or make some sort of concession or compromise or you will be squashed. And no-one will care.

[Hangarshuffle]

Wrathmonk fair comment. Only thing I would say Victory is what now having staff paid by private commercial firms, not public sector servants? This was a pay off sweetner then? Must have been. A 25 million kiss off? Perhaps that is what it sees as the future for the reds then, similar arrangement to say, Virgin or something? I could see that happening.


Im not being clear. I mean the Govt would see the future of paying a kiss off to a private venture who take on the RA? Keep the name and the airframes, use ex RAF air and ground crew?


I couldn't see that working to be honest.

[airpolice]

Hangarshuffle, your point, whatever it may be, might have more chance of reaching the desired audience if you used the correct words.

The UK is not in fact Bankrupt, but that would certainly be a good option for the state of our finances.

Imagine, if you can, what being bankrupt would mean.

Let's start with the aircraft carriers. We can't afford them, so cancel the deal. No penalty payments to anyone as the contract was with HMG who have gone under.

No massive shortfall in pensions, that was an arrangement that all you retired civil servants, NHS staff & members of the armed forces, had with the old HMG.

No pension pot to fill, no shortage of money.

New contracts all round. The PFI mess can be sorted out overnight by bankruptcy. Just don't pay.

Let the companies take HMG (2014 Ltd) to court. They can say it's nothing to do with them.

After all, the government choose the Judges, so we are sure to see a decision go in favour of whoever is in power.

In civvy street you see this all the time. Companies go bust leaving a string of debt to HMRC & others. same people start a new company, doing the same stuff, from the same offices next week, without the burden of old debts.

As it works so well for private industry, why not for government?

[GeeRam]

Are there 22 airworthy Hunters - well I only asked......................
Well there are about 10 in a hangar a Scampton, there's at least one at North Weald and I think the rest are at Exeter. So could be done I reckon. Assuming you mean The Loop.

I think the airworthy total for the UK currently stands at 12.

But, with an additional 14 airworthy examples based in Europe (2 in Holland, 2 in France, 7 in Switzerland & 3 in Sweden) it could be done :ok:

[thing]

it could be done http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Then it should be done!

[Wander00]

Look bl@@dy good, wouldn't it

[idle bystander]

Really? That's "fact" is it?? With counties like Switzerland, Indonesia; Saudi; Italy France able to maintain a display team, you think the UK should be relegated to a 3rd rate Air Force??

So, that's the defining characteristic of a 2nd rate air force, is it? The possession of a "crack" display team that whose members are so much better than anyone else that they think they can break all the (flying and engineering) rules. :D

More seriously, this thread is reflecting some real truths. We can't, actually, afford the luxury of the "World's best aerobatic team" (or whatever hype you want to put on it). The recent SI illustrates how, as well as the aforementioned arrogance, undermanning and lack of funds has created an organisation that is a danger to its own members and the general public.

[Genstabler]

The recent SI illustrates how, as well as the aforementioned arrogance, undermanning and lack of funds has created an organisation that is a danger to its own members and the general public.

Your real name is Sharky and I claim my reward!

[Roland Pulfrew]

More seriously, this thread is reflecting some real truths. We can't, actually, afford the luxury of the "World's best aerobatic team" (or whatever hype you want to put on it). The recent SI illustrates how, as well as the aforementioned arrogance, undermanning and lack of funds has created an organisation that is a danger to its own members and the general public.

Well that's really insightful! An SI has been completed and recommendations made, into an incident some time ago. Obviously you believe that the RAF is so arrogant that it would not act upon any recommendations? Despite the prevelance of HSAW and corporate manslaughter laws?? You believe that the Air Force hierarchy would just allow or be allowed to put team members and the general public in "danger"? How naive is that?:ugh:

I haven't read the full SI, so I would be intrigued to get your view on which "rules" were broken?

Now as for undermanning and lack of funds, there I have to agree with you, but that applies to almost every aircraft type across all 3 services. That's what comes of salami slicing manpower, taking "savings measures" against servicing and spares, moving to a "just-in-time" spares policy regardless of how much additional stress that places on those that have to implement it and hollowing out Defence generally through contractorization and use of "business practice" across key areas.

[johnnypaveway]

In my last 3 years in the Service - I had to write (Draft for ACOS) annually the case for retaining RAFAT.

- RAFAT contribute more to defence diplomacy than all of the other Display Teams/events mentioned on this or an other similar threads.

[tucumseh]

Obviously you believe that the RAF is so arrogant that it would not act upon any recommendations?

Of course they are. Demonstrated time and time again. How many of the CHART recommendations were implemented (Aug 92)? The fact they had to be repeated by the Hercules, Tornado, Puma, Nimrod ARTs (1996-98) speaks volumes. And still weren't implemented.

How many of the Director Internal Audit's 19 recommendations were implemented (June 1996)? None. #13 alone would have prevented the need for Haddon-Cave. Two or three others would have avoided the financial black hole.


You believe that the Air Force hierarchy would just allow or be allowed to put team members and the general public in "danger"?

Yes. Proven fact. See Mull of Kintyre Review. ACAS's illegal RTS. And Hercules. And Nimrod. And so on.


All very repetitive and unpalatable, but simple fact. I suggest you not only read the full SI report, but also compare the recommendations with (a) mandated policy and (b) previous reports.

Why make 56 recommendations that are mandated policy? What does that tell you? What does the need to repeat recommendations from previous reports say about the MoD's ability to learn lessons and adhere to its own regulations? It says it cannot be trusted to police itself, and the system is not fit for purpose.

[Bollotom]

Terrible demise for such a young lad. Let's just hope the RAF/MoD/UKGov get all the "Should have beens" sorted so that this can never happen again. I dread to think what may have happened had the accidental ejection taken place amid close formation flying or, God forbid, over a city. :cool:

[Roland Pulfrew]

So lots of stuff from the 90s. Have things changed since then? The hassle over Voyager, Tutor and RJ would suggest something has!

Tuc, check your PMs

[vascodegama]

HS -I thought they were.

[Tiger_mate]

In my last 3 years in the Service - I had to write (Draft for ACOS) annually the case for retaining RAFAT.

- RAFAT contribute more to defence diplomacy than all of the other Display Teams/events mentioned on this or an other similar threads.


A job which I dare say gets more difficult in each passing year. Though with respect, this sounds like parliamentary speak. What exactly does an albeit outstanding aerobatic team equipped with 32 year old jets contribute to defence diplomacy, or even, what is defence diplomacy?

The Wiki answer:
The United Kingdom identified defence diplomacy as one of the military’s eight defence missions, and aims to “dispel hostility, build and maintain trust and assist in the development of democratically accountable armed forces” to make a “significant contribution to conflict prevention and resolution.”[5] Defence diplomacy is often developed and implemented in close coordination with the foreign and development ministries to ensure coherence and focus across government.


FWIW, I too believe the Govt is writing cheques in the name of international kudos that there is no money in the bank to sustain. ...... And sooner or later, innocent bystanders will fall in order to try and balance the books. Desirable items are the first to go for as long as some assets retain an Essential classification. It should be all foreign financial aid to go first.... But it wont be.

[OafOrfUxAche]

Have things changed since then? The hassle over Voyager, Tutor and RJ would
suggest something has!


Or is the hassle of these 'new' platforms simply because they don't work properly?

[Navaleye]

Lets keep it common between all the services. There is no justification for keeping an dedicated (FULL TIME) aerobatic display team. Only part time/volunteer will do. Historic flights are different, they exist for heritage reasons. The Reds have no heritage and exist entirely to serve their own needs. This ancient dinosaur should be finally put to rest and the money spent on the front line

[Clockwork Mouse]

The Reds have no heritage and exist entirely to serve their own needs.

They must have incredible lobbying power then if they've managed to survive all this time while just serving their own needs! The political parties must be queuing up to discover their secret for such success.

On a slightly more serious note, it is not the Red Arrows' own heritage that is at stake. They represent to the world the best of the RAF, the British military and our country. If you don't believe me, ask the UK ambassadors to the countries they are invited to display in. They don't just do Defence diplomacy.

[CoffmanStarter]

Now that could be interesting :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/BgItbK0IQAALnwd_zpse4369b07.jpg

Image Credit : SAC Graham Taylor MOD

[idle bystander]

Your real name is Sharky and I claim my reward!


How nice!

Well, I did join the Navy with the feller, and later serve in Ark with (sorry, at the same time as) him, but that is the sum total of the connection. :p

[Yozzer]

Cross pollinated from the AFPRB thread:

The country has been living beyond its means for many years and even now the government is borrowing about £25 per week per person to fund its spending. If it's to balance the books it still needs to cut a £100bn a year from its budget...nearly 3 times the entire defence spending.

...about sums it up nicely I think. £11 Billion to countries that don't really need it anymore instead anyone.

[chopper2004]

Back to the future? :cool:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/1604492_649531121785873_555458912_n_zpse7c3627a.jpg

Cheers

[Wander00]

How many of them could we muster - the Gnats, I mean

[WH904]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/Shefftim/Redarrows-1inv.jpg

The Red Arrows have always been (and still are) a great asset. A national treasure of which we're all proud. Okay, a few people will always raise silly questions of value-for-money, but a proper analysis of the team's value always illustrates that they have always been worth every penny.

But it seems pretty certain that their future is dictated by the remaining fatigue lives on their Hawks. There's no realistic prospect of replacing the Hawks so once they've reached the end of their useful lives in jut a few years from now, that must be the end of the team too. It will be an incredibly sad day when they go, but it seems inevitable.

As for BBMF, I think there will always be far too emotion connected with this issue. Realistically, all of the BBMF fleet would inevitably continue to fly if they were sold to civilian owners, therefore it does seem slightly absurd that spending is still allocated to them when they could all continue to fly in civilian hands.

Ultimately, both units are politically-touchy subjects and nobody has any appetite for "killing-off" either of them. Who would want to be painted as the man who destroyed the Red Arrows and the BBMF? However, when the RAFAT no longer have any Hawks, it's obviously easier to claim that disbandment is an inevitable consequence. Finding a similarly plausible excuse to dump the BBMF is rather more difficult!

[Stitchbitch]

BBMFs OSD is somewhere near 2035..:eek:

[GeeRam]

How many of them could we muster - the Gnats, I mean

I think it's 5 flyers here in the UK currently, with at least another one currently on rebuild to fly.

Loads in the USA though, I think at least 15 odd are flyers over there.

[cuefaye]

WH904


Said it all http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[typerated]

I would have thought once the Hawks are time expired it might be an idea to change to say a part time 4 ship Typhoon team under the OCU (of course with extra funding and people)


Develop a display that has a bit close formation work but lots of high speed full burner passes would more than make up for the lack of aircraft and not need to much of a work up to achieve.


Curtail the amount of displays they appear at so they can get some real work done and that sounds like a good compromise to me.


The tranche 1 jets are supposed to be getting the boot anyway so would make a perfect mount.

[teeteringhead]

... my (usually well-informed) spies tell me the plan is to try and run the Reds on to 2018 and then do a farewell season for the RAF's centenary .......

........ always assuming the RAF lasts that long....... ... from my previous post ......


....... of 21st January 2007. :eek:

Some discussions never change or move on...

[Roland Pulfrew]

BBMFs OSD is somewhere near 2035

Does BBMF actually have an OSD? I always thought that BBMF's OSD only went as far as the last date in the Management Plan, until it was replaced with the newest MP which extended the OSD to the last date in the new MP. :ok:

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I would have thought once the Hawks are time expired it might be an idea to change to say a part time 4 ship Typhoon team under the OCU (of course with extra funding and people)

... wasn't the existence of such teams, their accident rate, and issue of fitting in display flying alongside their "day jobs" the exact reason for the formation of a dedicated team when the Reds first came along....?

[Flying Lawyer]

5 Forward 6 Back

As far as I'm aware, "accident rate" wasn't a factor.

There were several squadron and FTS teams in the 1950s and early 1960s. However, because of the time and money being spent on them and the loss of fighter squadrons because of budget constraints – plus ça change – the RAF disbanded them all in 1964 and tasked CFS to form one official full-time RAF team - the Red Pelicans.

Also in 1964, a team of 5 five yellow Gnats led by Flt Lt Lee Jones was formed at Valley to demonstrate the abilities of the new UK built Folland Gnat at Farnborough Airshow: the Yellowjacks.

The RAF decided to make them an official full-time team and, in 1965, posted Flt Lt Jones to Fairford, then an outpost of CFS, to form what became the Red Arrows. (The name was a combination of the very successful Black Arrows of Treble One and the CFS Red Pelicans.)

Flt Lt Ray Hanna, then a QFI at CFS, was selected for the team and flew as Red 3. Within a year, he was made Leader and promoted to Sqn Ldr.
His philosophy changed formation display flying for ever. Under his leadership, the Red Arrows almost instantly became a star attraction across the world and have remained one of the world's premier teams to this day.
Ray Hanna was a member of the team for 5 years and Leader for 4 – a record which I believe remains unbroken.


Tudor Owen

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Thanks for filling in the knowledge gaps! I did recall that we used to have numerous display teams (Black Arrows et al), but they were all disbanded when a formal RAF-wide team was formed.

I just found it ironic that after a decision being taken decades ago to have a single, full-time display team for various good reasons, we have people on this thread advocating we now get rid of the full-time team for one of part-timers again...

[Clockwork Mouse]

I don't think I shall ever be surprised at anything some people on this and other threads advocate.

[GeeRam]

Quote:
BBMFs OSD is somewhere near 2035
Does BBMF actually have an OSD?

Probably be determined by the availability, or lack of, AVGAS at some point.....

[TomJoad]

WH904


Said it all http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

what cuefaye said :ok:

[kintyred]

The only manoeuvre that the Reds did that ever really impressed me was that start of their display about 20 years ago called "Piccadilly Circus" where they approached the display from all points of the compass and joined up in a vertical diamond 9. The ability to coordinate individual arrivals into such a neat formation filled me with awe.
Maybe I'm just old and cynical now but the Reds just don't quite have the appeal they once had...perhaps it's time for total rethink about where we should go with a display team.
Taking cover now!

[typerated]

I think things have changed from the 60s a bit!


A few less Sqns around these days!


With units like the RAFAT it will soon it will be a case of trying to hang onto something (anything) or lose it completely I would suggest.


I suggest many are reading the wrong lesson from history WRT part time teams.

[spekesoftly]

There were several squadron and FTS teams in the 1950s and early 1960s....... the RAF disbanded them all in 1964 ...............


A number of FTS display teams lasted well into the 1970s. Linton Gin/Blades, Manby Macaws, Cranwell Poachers, Red Pelicans etc.

[Flying Lawyer]

spekesoftly

You are of course correct.
I meant to say that the squadron (not FTS) teams were disbanded but, on reflection, I'm reluctant to repeat that because I'm not 100% sure it's correct.

Two friends of mine would be less than impressed by my mistake. One led the Poachers for a few years and the other was Poacher 3.

Part of the 1971 brochure:

http://www.airdisplaymuseum.com/siteimages/123133.jpg

http://www.airdisplaymuseum.com/siteimages/123134.jpg


FL

[cuefaye]

And perhaps the last FTS team was the Dragons from Valley; short-lived, about to have smoke mods, and given the chop just as the fuel crisis bit!

[dragartist]

231 the Canberra OCU had the Green Marrows in the 80s about the time of the 40th Anniversary.


Is Ian Macfadyen, mentioned above in the Poachers the same AVM who may be talking to Air Britain in London next month about RAF Stanley in 1982?

[wiggy]

It would make sense.

The likes of Courtney will know for certain, but as I recall it IM was OC 29 Sqn when they deployed (in part) to Stanley post the "conflict".

[X767]

I don't know whether it is the same IM at Air Britain, but the one from the Poachers is an Air Marshal and Governor of Windsor Castle.

[Wander00]

FL - I remember three of the four from my time as a cadet at The Towers

[thing]

Thought I recognised the name, just had a look at my logbook and I've flown with him. He was an AVM at the time so must be the same bloke.

[Courtney Mil]

Absolutely correct. That is indeed the same Ian Macfadyen that was OC29 in 1982 and Governor of Windsor Castle. Plus many impressive posts in between. A true gent and a fine officer.

[CoffmanStarter]

The Macaws were regular visitors to RAF Manston in the early 70's in their JP4's ...

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q137/DavidLayne/Macaws2.jpg

Image Credit : MOD RAF Publication : D Layne

Here are a couple of links concerning the various JP Teams mentioned ...

RAF JP Teams 1 (http://www.jetprovostheaven.com/jpteams/)

RAF JP Team Brochures (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?69383-RAF-Jet-Provost-Aerobatic-Teams/page2)

PPRuNe JP Teams 2007 Thread (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/271666-raf-jet-provost-aerobatic-teams.html)

[Courtney Mil]

Goodness, Coff. John Aldington there. Another gent from way back.

[Clockwork Mouse]

50th Anniversary tail now revealed. Very striking. It'll look great on all nine displaying jets.

[teeteringhead]

Goodness, Coff. John Aldington there. Another gent from way back. Small world innit - I shared a room at Headley Court with John A in '73/'74-ish - ISTR he'd badly broken a leg slipping off an icy JP wing! Counts as an aircraft accident I suppose.

And don't forget the Vipers from 2 FTS @ Syerston. (oops - ought to read the links!)

[P6 Driver]

50th Anniversary tail now revealed. Very striking. It'll look great on all nine
displaying jets. And here's the link to their web page.
RAF Red Arrows Unveil New Tail Fin Design for 50th Display Season (http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/index.cfm?storyid=87462142-5056-A318-A8A61044D59939C1)

[Wander00]

John Aldington I recall from Binbrook early 80s and Peter Diggance from 360 mid to late 60s!

[GeeRam]

John Aldington I recall from Binbrook early 80s

IIRC, he was the 1986 Lightning solo aero's DP.

He also has the distinction of being one of the two pilots to make the final Lightning flights in RAF service when along with Paul Cooper, they flew the last two F.6's out of Binbrook on 30th June '88, delivering them to Cranfield.

[Nige321]

For those that knock the Red Arrows and think their demise won't be noticed.

It appears that this years display in Torbay has been pulled for scheduling reasons. Torbay residents 'aint happy... (http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/GROUNDED-Red-Arrows-won-t-fly-Torquay-year/story-20675949-detail/story.html)

[WH904]

...part time 4 ship Typhoon team under the OCU (of course with extra funding and people)

It's not a new idea. I discussed this with the team many years ago when some people had suggested a small team using Tornado F3. The logistics of using combat aircraft just doesn't add up. The cost of personnel and support would evidently be no less that for the whole team of Hawks, and naturally a team of four Typhoons wouldn't have the same public appeal, so the whole idea was/is a non-starter as far as RAFAT were concerned. The ugly notion of using Tucanos was also thrown-around but as far as I could determine, nobody took the idea seriously - thankfully!

I guess that post-Reds, the best that could be hoped-for is perhaps a four-ship Typhoon display sometime, as part of a major show or something like that, but certainly not a full 15-20 minute aerobatics sequence repeated every summer weekend. Nine-ship jet aerobatics will probably be a relic from history before too long, and I'm sure the same will apply to overseas teams too.

[Haraka]

Have we all forgotten the beautiful co-ordinated display sequence between a BBMF Spitfire and a Tornado F3 ? ( Rick P-E flying the latter).

Two birds with one stone?

[MPN11]

Once upon a foggy distant memory, many sqns had display teams of course. But I have to accept it's neither economic nor realistic these days, dammit.

[Flying Lawyer]

Further to post 82 …..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/1673m109G284copy_zps4a7d5fc7.jpg
Poacher 1 (John Robinson) and Poacher 3 (Ian Macfadyen) with their wives

Taken at The Honourable Company of Air Pilots (http://www.airpilots.org) Royal Charter Banquet held at Guildhall on 19 Feb.