Replacement for a Falcon 7X

[Arkwright]

As the title really, we have an 18 month old 7X and the owner is looking to order the next jet to allow for the waiting list and delivery times.

I've convinced him to vist Ebace this May, but I'd appreciate input, either positive or negative for the G650 Vs. Global 6000.

I appreciate that it is highly unlikely that anyone will have first hand experience of both, and I don't want this to descend into a Gulfstream Vs. Bombardier slanging match, but personal experience is welcomed.

I have heard that if you want customer service, then the market leader is Gulfstream??

I personally think he needs, (purely from a space/seating perspective), to order a Global 7000, but that won't be flying for a couple of years, and I don't think I could recommend having one of the first 50 or so serial numbers of a new aircraft type, meaning we'd have the 7X for probably 4-5 years.

[FlyMD]

Let me just start by saying I know nothing about Bombardier products. At all..

Had an interesting conversation with a G650 jockey the other day, and he said that contrary to rumors, the airplane works just fine, and does what the book says, same as previous Gulfstreams. No AOGs in 1 year of ops, which is a lot more than i can say for our 7x, and even for our fairly new 550..

The g650's bad rep stems only from its dismal cabin management system, and the not-so-smart decision to automate and electrify everything in the back, down to the fresh-air gaspers (!)..

So providing they sort their cabin out in the next couple years, the G650 should be the top performer on the market for a while to come, and will have it's dispatch reliability above 99% before the first Global 7000 even leaves the production line..

[galaxy flyer]

If ordered now, it's pretty certain that it wouldn't be in the first 50 G7000s, unless he buys a position.

GF

[Arkwright]

"Dismal cabin management system" Oh dear! Thats been our experience of the Falcon 7X!

We've had one AOG/failure to dispatch due to a MAU failure so the boss isn't too unhappy with the aircraft in general, but needs longer range. The advertised 5950NM isn't achievable in the real world.

I suspect that purchasing an option may well be the way we will have to go. The owner really should have started to think about the 7X replacement the moment we took delivery!

The Global 7000 would be preferred simply due to its size. The three cabin layout does appeal to the owner as it will be the biggest biz jet around without going down the airliner route. We still need access to airports that the BBJ/ACJ can't even think about.

[Klimax]

Order the G650 now and take delivery in 2017. That's apparently the current timeframe - unless he's willing to pay more than the current catalogue value - which most rich people are not, unless they are Russians.


Good luck with the project. Either way - you're likely to wait a couple of years for any of it!

[BizJetJock]

I have heard that if you want customer service, then the market leader is Gulfstream??
I think they are resting on their laurels on this one. It may have been true a few years ago, but certainly my experience is that they are no better that Bombardier, and if you are not FAA reg then considerably worse at supporting other certification standards.

(currently involved in operating aircraft from both manufacturers)

[Arkwright]

Thanks for all the replies so far. Interested to hear that the Gulfstream reputation for excellent customer service has slipped a little. To be honest that would have been the major reason for me to recommend them to my boss.

I suspect we will need a G6000 in the next 2 years, and maybe order a G7000 for 2018-19.

I've also had some PM's from pilots in Asia operating the G650 who tell me that it can't make the advertised range, as well as the (to be expected) "teething issues" of operating a new aircraft and a new type.

[south coast]

Your boss sounds like a good owner to work for, does he need another pilot? Am 7x rated and a G650 sounds great! ;-)

[Tray Surfer]

Your boss sounds like a good owner to work for, does he need another pilot? Am 7x rated and a G650 sounds great! ;-)

I am quite happy to be your galley slave too! ;)

[I.R.PIRATE]

If you would like to have a sincere chat about Gulfstream customer service, drop me a PM. Especially if you are EU based.

Don't fall for all the smoke and mirrors.

[FrankR]

Hi Pirate, why can't you comment where others can review?

We operate all three, and it's true that they all have their moments, and none of them will roll over for your request for a high dollar item, but Falcon and Globals are rungs down the ladder when you call with a question, or need a part.

What exactly don't you like about the G, and where has Bombardier and Dassault shown brilliance?

FR

[I.R.PIRATE]

I can only comment on our experience. And I will only do so with someone who is sincere about hearing our story. I'm not here to lambaste any company, but if he wants the straight shoot on the last few years of having to deal with GAC , drop me a pm. I could write a long anonymous post wingeing about a company or I could answer the OP's concerns specifically. That's the difference. And we never want anything for free, but the minimum we expect is when you stuff up, you admit it. I'm the first to say there are no better machines than the G's. But we are moving over to the dark side as result of the service, and purely the service.

[g450cpt]

Hello Guys

I can't comment first hand on the Global line but I have plenty of experience on the Gulfstream. We have had nothing but exceptional customer service support from Gulfstream. We operate a legacy GIVSP that is no longer in production and a GV series aircraft with great support from GAC. When we purchased our new GV series aircraft with the elite interior it had plenty of growing pains. GAC rectified any and all items either through a service center or at their expense flew in a MX tech to wherever in the world the plane may have been. That being said, we did have some communication issues with a certain Gulfstream service center on the European side of the Atlantic. That particular service center could do with some lessons from GAC in Savannah. However one call to our service rep in the States usually got the ball rolling in the right direction. If anyone has any specific questions that cannot be discussed on an open forum, send me PM and I will explain in detail.

g450cpt

[Arkwright]

Hi all,

Firstly the recruitment request……sorry, but we have just taken on a second Cabin Attendant, and the final member of the flight deck team starts on the 1st April.

Pirate I will PM you shortly. A frank discussion on the plus's and minus's of these manufacturers is exactly what I need. What I don't want to start is a brand loyalty thread….I fully understand that everyone can be defensive toward their current aircraft.

All I can say is that I doubt either of the North American manufacturers can be any worse than our experience of Dassault.

[FrankR]

Perhaps the best insight other than your own experiences is to attend an "operators forum". GAC offers 5-7 of these a year around the world. Each time I attend, I learn something. However, one constant is that there are always 1-2-3 guys there who are wound up beyond belief. When it comes time for the Q/A, they explode. ... it happens every time! So just make sure you are learning about systemic problems, not individual biases.

FR

[ReverseFlight]

I have operated both Gulfstreams and Globals and I must say it is the luck of the draw.

Brand new Gulfstreams could be temperamental coming out of the completion centre (ask the guys at Long Beach !) but tend to settle down well during most of their working lives.

The Globals tend to be painful with frequent avionics glitches. Also, their cabin trim is cause for many owner complaints. I'm no Bombardier basher - maybe it's just my bad luck.

7Xs are not spared either. I heard of both gems and dogs.

[Astra driver]

Been flying Gulfstreams for 10 years now, GII, GIII, G550 and now G650 and I can say their dispatch reliability is excellent, in all that time I've only had 2 failures that grounded the plane and interrupted a trip.

The new G650 is exceeding it's range predictions; Originally predicted to fly 7,000nm at M0.85 and 5,000 at M0.90, now reportedly achieving 7,000nm at M0.87 and 6,000nm at M0.90.

The cabin issues with the GCMS system on the first 50 or so planes has deffinitely been a problem but seems to be settling in now and more and more crews that I talk to say they are having very few if any problems with the cabin. The first 650 our company took delivery of was in the first 40 and did have a lot of issues, but are all worked out now. We are now taking delivery of two more this month which we have been monitoring closely through completion in Savannah and so far everything is indicating that the delivery of these two should be a lot smoother.

I know that completions at the Long Beach facility are not going as well, indeed I have an associate who's aircraft is 10 serial numbers ahead of ours but won't be finished by Long Beach until May.

As with any new aircraft design there is a lot to be said for avoiding the first 50 (or 100) off the production line.

In my personal experience Gulfstreams product support has been excellent albeit not cheap.

I personally don't have any experience with Bombardier products but a good friend who I attended G650 initial training with flew a Global for 10 years and stated that he was not happy with the reliability of the aircraft, but others I have spoke with have nothing but praise for the aircraft. It all comes down to what best suits your mission in the end.

That being said, when it comes to new aircraft designs, it appears to me that Gufstream has a habit of
"Under promising and over delivering" and that Bombardier seems to do the opposite as evidenced by the Global Express entry into service.

[mutt]

The new G650 is exceeding it's range predictions; Originally predicted to fly 7,000nm at M0.85 and 5,000 at M0.90, now reportedly achieving 7,000nm at M0.87 and 6,000nm at M0.90.
With what sort of payloads?

Mutt

[solent]

My experience with Gulfstream is limited to the G200 and all I can say if the support is anything like we get then do not buy a G650 as it has truly been an eye opener just how bad it is.

2 caveats though, 1 the G200 is not a true Gulfstream and 2 this in Europe only so no idea how good it is in Savannah!

[Astra driver]

Mutt, These range numbers are all based on a full fuel load of 44,200lbs. Typical BOW numbers for a G650 are in the 54,500 to 54,700lb range, subtract that from the 100,000lb max ramp wt and you get a payload of 1,100 to 1,300 lbs.
The 650 can carry up to a 6,500 lb payload at lower fuel loads and lower BOW's (Max zero fuel wt is 60,500lbs)

If you really wanted to fill all the seats (typically 16 to 19) then one could still loft over 42,000 lbs of fuel which would shave off about 1 hours worth of cruise time at M0.87 or roughly 500nm (typically see fuel flows of 2,000 pph or less at the lower weights), so it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect around 6,500 nm in that case.

Solent, sorry to hear you had a bad experience with the G200, I flew an Astra for a few years and found that Gulfstreams support of that "Bastard step child" was also very good.

The majority of my flying is between Japan and Europe and I have found the response of GAC in Luton and Basel to be very good, dispatching techs to make on site repairs when we needed them in Frankfurt and Nice first thing the next morning. About the only gripe I can make about support in Europe is the apparent reluctance of personel at Luton to work overtime. (Something to do with that British "Got to have my 5 O'clock cup of tea" mentality?)

[I.R.PIRATE]

Savannah is awesome. No complaints there. But not all of us can hop down to good 'ole SAV from the EU when things go t/u.

Although we are considering sea-freighting the machine over in future when AOG, rather than having to put up with LTN.

Basel is where you want MX done if EU based.

[grimwl]

Quote,
Your boss sounds like a good owner to work for, does he need another pilot? Am 7x rated and a G650 sounds great! ;-)

I am quite happy to be your flying spanner too!!

[muntisk]

" The advertised 5950NM isn't achievable in the real world.

How much is realistic range? Is it possible fly Tel aviv NY?

[noneya]

It is very realistic!

I just did KPBI to UAAA (12:36) the other day and landed with 8K onboard. (.88-.90 the whole way) and we are doing UAAA-KTEB (12:02) tomorrow (.88 because the burn is cheaper/very compatible to the same fuel burn as our previous G450).

Dont listen to the guys who have never flown the plane.

[muntisk]

Actually i am interested in 7X range.

[noneya]

My apologies.. I can not speak to that. Only Falcon time I have is in a Falcon 50 when I was in my early 20's.

J

[FLEXJET]

It is very realistic!

I just did KPBI to UAAA (12:36) the other day.

This was 22 April :)

[Lucky8888]

Actually i am interested in 7X range.

By the book, it's around 6000 NM. We have an 8X on order to replace our 900LX.

[Amadis of Gaul]

It is very realistic!

I just did KPBI to UAAA (12:36) the other day and landed with 8K onboard.

Holy Catfish!

[galaxy flyer]

That is impressive! My longest Global flight was KPIE-LLBG, 12+26 at M.81 and landed with 4K. UAAA is 700 nm farther in pretty much the same time.

GF

[FlyMD]

It's horses for courses, really...
My boss wants to do Singapore to London City, park there for a while, leave London City for White Plains. On the way back, stop at St-Tropez or maybe Saanen (LSGK), then home to SIN (leaving from a longer runway than either Saanen or St-Tropez). So there is really only the 8X for him, and up to now we did this trip with the 7X, with a fuel stop on leg 1.

On the other hand, if you substitute Northolt for City, Toulon for St-tropez and Bern for Saanen, the G650 can do it faster (total time saving in the air about 2 hours!), with more cabin options, and possibly with a slight edge in dispatch reliability...

[noneya]

FlyMD..

Just FYI, London City cert is coming to the G650.


---

UAAA - KTEB yesterday.. 12:39 with crazy headwinds, vectoring and slowing for weather in NY/NJ.... All without toping off to full fuel in UAAA and flying .88 the whole way. 5K remaining KTEB...

[space-shuttle-driver]

well, looks like the threadstarter IS flying the Gee 650 now...

[FlyMD]

Noneya, have your tried PARKING a G650 in London City (for more than 20 minutes, say....)?

[noneya]

I have not... We do not use London City, and to be honest we are only in London with the G650 maybe 5 times a year.

[FlyMD]

The problem is that anything with a wider wingspan that the 7x will not be able to use the parking stands at the GA center, therefore you have to compete with the airliners for short-term parking, and assuming you get one, it will be limited to one hour maximum, after which you will have to re-position. Also, because you will then be parked at the main terminal, your pax will have to screen an clear immigration at that same main terminal, which is a bit of a hassle...

So the LCY cert for Globals and Gulfstreams is a bit of a non-starter in my opinion...