Achtung Typhoon!

[CoffmanStarter]

Now that's an interesting image :ok:

Shame the Typhoon didn't have Roundels :E

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/faaca8c0-3dd9-4e19-bd2f-39e2117bccd1_zps611889f6.jpg

Gen 1 v Gen 4 ... What odds would you give the ME262 for the kill (just guns) ?

[Courtney Mil]

Nice question, Coff. The 262 wasn't truly much of a dog fighter. It was a great bomber killer and hard for the escorts to engage because of its speed and its thumping great 30mm cannons. But it had a very high wing loading so its turn rate/radius wasn't that great; that said it notched up a good few Mustangs on its bedpost, mainly high speed fly through shots rather than a turning fight.

Sadly for nostalgia and without using any hard figures, I'm afraid Typhoon has it. If flown by a RAF pilot, of course. :ok:

[Dash8driver1312]

None whatsoever unless the Tiffy was parked and chocked.

[TomJoad]

Less than 0 and I suspect that is too much. Cracking picture.:ok:

[NutherA2]

On behalf of all us pedants, should it not be "Achtung Taifun"?

[dagenham]

Actually as it's a continuation me262 with modern jet engines, overcoming the biggest issue with the original and if the fadec was altered has massively more thrust than the original it would put up a bit of a fight

Out of interest Howard Hughes bought one to race at the Cleveland races against the p80 shooting star and the us government stopped him. Only bad point was poor engines, the fuselage and wings are excellent. Those wings fathered the sabre and hunter. While focke wolfs wing design heavily influenced soviet fighter development

[sitigeltfel]

Video footage here..

URyKMUKlXAc

Stormbirds project (http://www.stormbirds.com/project/)

[Violet Club]

This is probably the most useful thing a Luftwaffe Typhoon will ever do.

[E-Spy]

On behalf of all us pedants, should it not be "Achtung Taifun"?

Even more pedantic, ze Germans would never call it a 'Typhoon', no matter how much I insisted :E it is still the Eurofighter over there

[GeeRam]

Cracking photo :ok:


Shame the 262 isn't painted as Heinz Bar's Red 13.

[Buster Hyman]

What odds would you give the ME262 for the kill?

Odds on the ME262 would kill the ME262 pilot. :uhoh:

[Hangarshuffle]

The 262 looks such an awesome, fearsome aircraft for its time. Cant imagine how frightening it must have been for those US and RAF daylight bomber crews to face. Years ago I read Chuck Yeager's book, there's a bit about how he faced up to them, and I think shot one down (dived on it as it came into land).


All of Nazi Germany military equipment seems tremendous in comparison to Britain's- all seems a "first" in military design, they seemed to get everything right first time, the list is almost endless. Their concepts seem to have been followed on for what 70 years+.
The 262 v the Meteor (did they ever meet in combat, did the Meteor fly over Germany?).
The 88mm V. the 2 or 6Ib anti tank gun.
The first cruise missile, the first ballistic missile.
The first purpose built close support aircraft (Ju87).
The first purpose built main battle tank (Tiger 1).


It just goes on and on. Could never give enough credit to our people who faced up and beat them down.

[dragartist]

Coff, do you think we should tell our fellow PPRuNers that we have a bloke who flew the 262 coming to talk to us at Cambridge RAeS in April. Not sure if the details are up on the web site yet but it will be announced at Sir Arthurs lecture next week.


Capt Eric Brown CBE, DSC, AFC - Flying captured German Aircraft during WW2- Lecture Room O Cambridge University Engineering Dept. 3rd April 2014 - 19:30 Hrs Visitors welcome.


Don't tell everyone. I could not get a seat when Andy Green came. had to sit on the hard concrete step. Not good for the farmers.

[NITRO104]

Even more pedantic, ze Germans would never call it a 'Typhoon', no matter how much I insisted http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif it is still the Eurofighter over there
It's 'EuFi' in Luftwaffe...such a gentle nick, until it roars past you.

A comment on OP...if you ditch those two JuMos and replace them with EJ200s (looks they may even fit original gondolas), well...

[CoffmanStarter]

Dragartist old chap ... Should be a good one ... Hope all goes well. You've certainly got a cracking line up of lectures this year :ok:

[Buster Hyman]

The 262 v the Meteor (did they ever meet in combat, did the Meteor fly over Germany?).
Pretty sure they didn't meet in combat.

I think a fair assumption of the 262 was Looks like a fish, moves like a fish, steers like a Cow! dragartist...Could you ask him about maneuverability please? Love to hear it from a pilot & not "researchers".

[Navaleye]

Wasn't the 30mm ADEN a copy of the weapon in the 262?

[dragartist]

Roger that Buster, I think what I will do is start a new thread, say a fortnight before (that's two weeks in English money) as others may treasure the warning order.


Those guys at Cambridge must be well connected as they have put on some real good lectures this year. They have an Air Marshall talking F35 next week. Then Skylon in March. all very topical stuff.


Can someone save me digging out the books. Is the Typhoon in the foreground in the picture? it looks so small in comparison with the 262.


I did read an interesting quote about these engines. I think the design life was 25 hrs due to the limitations of the blade materials. When Winkle flew it he did not know if it was a 1 hr or 24 and a half hour engine (It may have been one of the other German jets. I do like his story on the rocket fuels and the German ground crew.

[GeeRam]

Odds on the ME262 would kill the ME262 pilot.

Quite.

There maybe one or two members on here that may well have met a famous 262 pilot that was forever scarred after barely surviving a crash that hospitalised him for 2 years.....but later went on to fly the F-104 in the West German Airforce.

Battle of Britain veteran, as well as Me262 'ace', 'Macky' Steinhoff in later years showing the result of the burns suffered in his 262 crash.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm41/jager1961/bomber%20aces%20of%20WW2/fighter%20pilots%20of%20WW2/JohannesSteinhoffpostwarsignedphoto-1.jpg

[The Helpful Stacker]

Wasn't the 30mm ADEN a copy of the weapon in the 262?

Nope.

The ADEN (and I believe the US M39) were based on the experimental and unfielded Mauser MG213C.

[rjtjrt]

Interesting to compare what has happened to the size of fighter aircraft in the intervening 70 years.

[TBM-Legend]

a good read about a great machine remembering how and when it was conceived, built and flown in combat...
The Me 262 Stormbird: From the Pilots Who Flew, Fought, and Survived It - Colin D. Heaton - Google Books (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=l8aSAi70md0C&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=Flying+the+Me-262&source=bl&ots=145-mES9cH&sig=_Bm62nTNcnovjaiBxnaY1FjdoOg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ss7yUra8G7ChiAfByIHYAQ&ved=0CGwQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=Flying%20the%20Me-262&f=false)

[GreenKnight121]

Actually as it's a continuation me262 with modern jet engines, overcoming the biggest issue with the original and if the fadec was altered has massively more thrust than the original it would put up a bit of a fight

Specifically, it is powered by non-afterburning J85s (CJ610) producing 2,850 lb.s.t. each, as opposed to the 1,980 lb.s.t. of the Jumo. The reduction of the J85's thrust to ~2,400-2,500 lb.s.t. was due to the intake/exhaust shaping, not to any engine-control setup. Additionally, there was a placarded speed limitation, as the higher thrust of the J85 could cause the Me-262 replica to exceed its safe airframe speed.

As the J85 first flew in September 1958, I don't consider it a "modern jet engine"... and I question the assertion that it has fadec (full-authority digital engine controls) - the technical section on the project's website makes no mention of fadec, and J85/CJ610s don't have that in their normal installation.

Me 262 PROJECT TECHNICAL DATA (http://www.stormbirds.com/project/technical/technical_3.htm)

[Whenurhappy]

Great photo - presumably the Me-262 from the Historic Colelction at EADS/Cassidian at Manching? I have a rather triumphal photo of me in my No 1s standing by the cockpit of a Me-109 there....Oh well, they shouldn't have invaded Poland.

I think there are few observers who would not agree that the Me-262 was a beautiful looking aircraft (a feature in common with most German designs, past and present, I have to say) but the greatest contribution of German designers was the investigation and development nof wing sweep-back, to reduce the affects of compressibility at higher speeds. Allied invesitgators found something like 80 supersonic wind tunnels in western Germany at theend of the war; at that time the fastes in the UK and the US was the one at RAE Bedford, capable of a rather pedestrian Mach 0.85. At Oberammergau (a location familiar with many RAF personnel) a Mach 10 wind tunnel was believed to be there, but removed by Bell Aircraft Corporation. The impact of these discoveries - especially advanced projects such as P1101 and P1110 (both variable geometry designs) - was enormous. the Ministry of Aircraft Production issued immediate instructions fro aircraft designers to stop research on all non-swept wing fast aircraft designs.


Here's an extract on further developments of the Me-262:
A secret Me-262 Performance Report from Oberammergau, issued in February 1945 by HerrA Degel,[1] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftn1)analysed performance improvements and development opportunities for the Schwalbe. The Critical Mach number at altitude waspredicted against the production variant of the Me-262 and 4 design modifications.[2] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftn2)These modifications ranged from relatively minor aerodynamic changes, to aradical rebuild of the Schwalbe, thelatter modification retaining only the fuselage, but installing 45° Pfeilflügel (swept wings), two ductedwing-root HeS 011A engines, and a heavily modified empennage (tail) includingthe option of a V tail. Based on acombination of arithmetic calculations, flight testing of existing models and‘values of an altitude test facility’ (possibly a hypersonic wind tunnel), itwas predicted that True Air Speed (TAS) at sea level would be c 960 km/h (518 knots) against a currentin-service speed of c 835 km/h (450knots). Performance was predicted topeak at an altitude of 6500 m – at a staggering 1000 km/h (539 knots) –equating to Mach 0.92 – compared with the in-service never-exceed speed of Me-262A-1aof Mach 0.82. By comparison, the fastestpiston-powered Allied fighter in service was the Mk XXII Supermarine Spitfire,could achieve a relatively pedestrian 454 miles per hour (Mach 0.65) at 7900 m(26,000 feet).[3] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftn3)

The report focussed on how to improve the performance ofthe Me-262, noting that minor changes to the canopy design, reduction of formdrag through better filleting (smoothing the joints between the wings andfuselage) and recessing elevator and aileron links would produce significantperformance improvements. It also notedthat by ‘improving the surface quality [smoothness and finish of the wings andfuselage]…better production [quality] and elimination of constructionimperfections…the installation of more powerful engines in the current 262 body definitely still worth it.’ Themore radical design ‘5 Zustand’ would require a ‘large rebuilding effort [ofthe existing Me-262 fuselage] … for raising the critical Mach number afurther increase in speed makes it impossible, despite increasing the engineperformance…therefore a highly swept wing, installation of engines in the wingroot and tail [modifications] are used as key features [to improve overallperformance].’ The report further notesthat ‘[by the use of a] two-engined heavy fighter…the expected opponent’sdevelopment can be countered successfully.[4] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftn4)

[1] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftnref1) Boyne,p 180, lists Herr Degel as the ‘Project Type Engineer’.

[2] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftnref2)Critical MachNumber. In aerodynamics, the critical Mach Number(Mcr) of an aircraft is the lowest Mach number (of the aircraft) at which theairflow over any part of the aircraft reaches the speed of sound.

[3] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftnref3) William Green (1961) Fighters Vol 2 pp 96-116

[4] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftnref4)Me-262 Leistungssteigerung, Oberammergau23 Feb 1945.




The final in-service variant had a pretty good selection of armamment, principally to get around the age-old issue of delivering sufficient weight of fire on an increasingly fleeting target. According to William Green nand my own research:

The Me-262A-1a carried 4 x 30 mm canon plus 24 x5 cm R4M air to air rockets (unguided with 4 kg warhead and effective range of600 – 1000 m). Maximum performance was538 mph (460 knots/860 km/h) at 29,500 feet (9000 m), with a range of 526 miles(842 km) at a typical combat altitude of 20,000 feet (7000 m).[1] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftn1)

Although an aerodynamically clean and elegant single-seat,twin-engined fighter, it was plagued by engine performance and materiél supplyproblems, as well as political interference with the insistence that itcombined air-superiority, close-air support roles and ‘vengeance’ (high-speedretaliatory bomber) roles. Nonetheless,it was effective in combat against Allied bomber formations, as it could engagebombers with its rockets outside their defensive arcs, and generally its speedand height-climbing performance outstripped Allied fighters. As an example, on 18 March 1945, AdolfGalland’s 20 Scwhalbe shot down 20USAAF bombers and 5 fighters, with no loss.[2] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftn1) About 1443 were produced between March 1944and April 1945, however 497 were lost due to Allied bombing and only 200-300entered service, with chronic fuel and engine shortages, disruption to aircraftproduction and lack of skilled pilots limiting their overalleffectiveness. By the end of the war,the Me-262 accounted for about 550 allied aircraft against a loss of about 100in combat – though most of these were ‘bounced’ on take-off or landing. Moreover, the Me-262 had little impact on theRAF heavy bomber force that operated at night, because a night-fighter variant– fitted with Air Interception radar – entered service very late in the war andhad no impact.

[1] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftnref1)Green, William (1968): War Planes of theSecond World War: Fighters Volume 1. p 189.
[2] (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8303296&noquote=1#_ftnref1)Galland, Adolf (1954): The First and Last. p 148. Most combat losses of Me-262s occurred when taking off or landing, when they were bounced by Allied fighters.


In spite of the dire situation for Nazi Germany, considerable research on missiles and advanced guns continued. At Oberammergau:

According to one US Intelligence report, modelsand plans for the Me-163C rocket-powered interceptor were found, as well asexperimental installations and mounts for the R4M air-to-air unguided rocket.[1] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftn1) In addition to the largely-completed P.1101,other discoveries included the installation of the electrically-driven MauserMG 213 30mm revolving cannon on a Me-262A-1a designed to deliver a greaterweight of fire at a greater rate to compensate for the higher aircraftoperating speeds. The end of the warprevented this weapon from being used operationally; however the gun design wasadopted post-war in British and French aircraft gun designs, principally in theADEN cannon.[2] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftn2)
[1] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftnref1) Rakete– 4 kg – Minen Geschoss (Rocket – 8.8 lb - Thin-walled shell) contained17.6 ounces of Hexogen explosive andhad a considerable blast effect. TheMe-262 could carry 24 (with plans for 48) of these R4M, which were designed tobe launched from wooden rails over 0.03 s, and spreading to cover the area of a4-engined bomber at 600 yards/m.
[2] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftnref2)Green, William & Punnett, Ian(1970): Warplanes of the Third Reich,p 628.
However, let's not get too excited about the Me-262. Apart from a few models built in Czechoslovakia after the war, the design did not progress. And let's not get into the 'what if' scenario. After my notes, there is a rather good quote taken from a USAF research paper (subsequently recycled in several other publications):


Irrespectiveof the output of these facilities, the Luftwaffenow lacked experienced pilots to lead the fighter squadrons[1] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftn1)and coupled with the chronic shortage of fuel – amongst other things,drastically reducing the training time for new pilots and requiring aircraft tobe towed out to the runways by horses to reduce fuel consumption – theseadditional aircraft would have been unlikely to change the outcome of the war,given that the Allies had begun to introduce more reliable jet fighters, suchas the Gloster Meteor and theLockheed P-80 Shooting Star, intoservice.[2] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftn2)
‘[I]The romance of the Me-262 is enhanced by thelong standing myth that but for Hitler’s bumbling incompetence, it would havebeen in service a year earlier that its 1944 operational debut, and that itwould have swept Allied bombers from the sky, possibly changing the course ofthe war, or at least permitting exhausted Germany a negotiated peace. Such speculation is profitless, for theentire force of the Me-262 program was but a dust mote in the furious avalancheof Allied power.’[B][3] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftn3)



[1] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftnref1) Williamson Murray (2002) Strategy for Defeat – the Luftwaffe 1933 –1945 Eagle Editions/Quantum, London,p 189. (originally published in 1983 by the Air Power Research Institute,Maxwell Air Force Base).



[2] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftnref2) Only 3 YP-80A got to Europe before the end of the war, and did not seecombat. Boyne,p 139.


[3] (http://www.pprune.org/#_ftnref3) Walter J Boyne (1980) Messerschmit Me 262, National Air and Space Museum, WashingtonDC p 5.



If PPruners are interested, I have a paper on the Messerschmitt Research facilities in Oberammergau - plus the history of the present NATO School there. Just PM me.


Edited to add: sorry that some line and paragraph breaks have not cut'n'pasted particularly well.

[Martin the Martian]

Typhoon and Me 262? Meh.

From Kemble Air Show in 2007:

http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/merlin824/2007/2007-06-17%20Kemble%20Airfield/2007-06-17165.jpg (http://s572.photobucket.com/user/merlin824/media/2007/2007-06-17%20Kemble%20Airfield/2007-06-17165.jpg.html)

[Whenurhappy]

Although I'm a loyalist, the Me-262 wins against the Meteor hands-down in the looks department. Think Morris Minor vs BMW (choose any model) to see what I mean about German design. Except their clothes. Lederhosen anyone?

[TBM-Legend]

Me-262 = Claudia Schiffer
Meatbox = Sarah Fergie:ouch:

[ericferret]

Hangar shuffle

The Nazis had nothing to do with the first purpose built close support aircraft.
It was German and dates back to to a specification drawn up in 1916. One of the production aircraft being the Junkers J1. So correct country, correct manufacturer, wrong era.

[Martin the Martian]

It is unfair to compare a night fighter Meatbox to the Me 262, I guess. Now the PR.10, with its long span wings, rounded tail and bubble canopy... well, that's another matter.

[CoffmanStarter]

Courtney ... my question was really a bit "tongue-in-cheek" :ok:

But I guess if you got in the right place with one of these you could do some serious damage :eek:

The Me262A-1/U4 or "Pulkzerstörer" (Formation or Pack Destroyer)

http://www.wwiiaircraftphotos.com/LCBW/Me262-Mk214-41.jpg

Apparently only two prototypes of this model were constructed and flown, featuring the 50 mm Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk 214 cannon.

The fitting of the Mk214 to the Me 262 was an effort to create an effective bomber-killer that could attack enemy formations from long range without being subjected to the bomber's defensive fire. The gun fired 1.5-kg shells at a muzzle velocity of 1100 meters/second, with the 2400kg recoil of the weapon being absorbed by a hydraulic damper. It was estimated that a single hit would be sufficient to cripple an Allied bomber. This development was designated the Me262A-1/U4 and was known as the "Pulkzerstörer" (formation or pack destroyer).

[althenick]

Except their clothes. Lederhosen anyone?

Not aviation related but a light hearted moment in my Life

While working in Darmstadt as Telecoms Consultant for a very well known Mobile Phone provider. Poured over my PC and Muttering oaths to my Pagan gods about how shight the design of the Network was I was tapped on the shoulder by a Jovial Beer-barreled teutonic Gent who said to me in perfect German
"Good day to you Al, I am Deiter, I Hear you are from Scotland I beleive you should be wearing a skirt" (Cue Guffaw from all present)
"Hello Deiter" Says I "Yes - I find them more Comfortable than Leather Hot Pants" (Cue Silence except for My English counterpart trying stiffle a snigger)
:\

[racedo]

Coff

Looks like an early version of the A-10 Warthog.........

[27mm]

If you look closely at the roundels on the fin of the Me-109 at Manching, you'll see one annotated Mossie!

[GeeRam]

But I guess if you got in the right place with one of these you could do some serious damage

The Me262A-1/U4 or "Pulkzerstörer" (Formation or Pack Destroyer)

Apparently only two prototypes of this model were constructed and flown, featuring the 50 mm Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk 214 cannon.

Me262 ace Willie Herget attempted to use one of the 50mm Mk214 equipped 262 in combat on a couple of occasions while with JV44, but both times the cannon jammed upon first attempt at firing....against a formation of B-26's IIRC.

There was also at least one 6 x cannon equipped Me262, with a pair of 20mm cannon installed in the nose in addition to the 4 x 30mm.
Heinz Bar scored one of his 16 victories while flying the Me262 with this 6 x cannon Me262.

[Bernoulli]

I'd imagine that firing all that lot at once would bring you to a juddering halt in mid-air! Tricky.

[brokenlink]

Dragartist, you may have to find a nice warm step for again for April methinks if the reaction from some of the local cadets/staff is anything to go by when I mentioned it yesterday evening! However if the farmers really are playing up come and find us and I'll "ask" a cadet to surrender their seat. Regards.

BL.

[dagenham]

Story reminds me of another tale.

Meeting in early eighties, with a us multinational at the Berlin office. One of the guys there " langsdale " was a approaching the big gold clock moment so the German team invited him out for a few beers to celebrate.

Over dinner youngest German said to langsdale.... Have you been to Berlin often? Langsdale replied yes many times in a previous position, but never stopped before.

Young Wolfgang then asked why, who did you work for he replied " the royal air force, I was a bomb aimer"

It went quite then and we got our coats. At break fast the next day one of the older Germans volunteered they might have meet in the past, as he was a German night fighter pilot. Small world, the next nights beers where much more fun

[mr fish]

Which climbs faster, typhoon or me163?........at takeoff of course!!!

[gr4techie]

Which climbs faster, typhoon or me163?........at takeoff of course!!!

The Me163 Komet was literally a rocket ship. 0 to 30,000ft in 2 to 3 minutes. But didn't have the range of a Typhoon.

Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet - YouTube

[Courtney Mil]

An early Lightning concept?

[dat581]

People like to waffle on about how far advanced German aircraft were but forget the Allies had advanced aircraft under development too. The dH Vampire first flew in 1943 and would have eaten the Me262 for breakfast.

[TBM-Legend]

The dH Vampire first flew in 1943 and would have eaten the Me262 for breakfast.


Prove it!:hmm:

[Haraka]

The impact of these discoveries - especially advanced projects such as P1101 and P1110 (both variable geometry designs) - was enormous

I think you will find that the prototype P.1101 was intended to investigate the best wing sweep angle and as such was ground adjustable between 35 and 43 deg.
(The Bell X-5 was a totally new aircraft, indeed using VG , but based upon the P.1101 as a start point only)

The P.1110 was not a VG concept IIRC.

[Haraka]

The dH Vampire first flew in 1943 and would have eaten the Me262 for breakfast.
But the Vampire didn't arrive in Squadron service until after the end of the war.
Hardly a fair comparison.

[Fat Magpie]

I dont think it would have been a major step to offer the P1101 with variable geometry in flight.