Sporty autos

[John Eacott]

Hmmm. Stand by for incoming critiques...

-gYqYPV3pyw

[GoodGrief]

Third auto is a fail, they missed the spot.

[Bellrider]

What sense makes the backward move?? High risk for nothing..... i´´m shure that´s not sane for the skids....

[Wander00]

Turkish S-64 - loved the fire hose at the end - very impressive

[Tailboom]

Fantastic !

[mickjoebill]

Hmmm. Stand by for incoming critiques...
Is there a version in colour?:8
What sense makes the backward move??

If you were over forest or rocky ground where trashing the aircraft would seem to be unavoidable and were unable to reduce forward speed for some reason, is it preferable to hit the ground backwards in respect to increasing passenger survivability?

Gearbox and engine not between passengers and ground, less chance of rotors hitting passengers? passengers facing backwards?


Mickjoebill

[ShyTorque]

Hmmm. Stand by for incoming critiques...

Jeez, too right. Those guys are flying a Robbo. That's awful..

[topendtorque]

It's an extraordinarily old hat power on manoeuvre when arresting the forward speed of an aircraft to keep the tail out of the ground, ho hum. But to run it onto the ground power off, and misjudge the zero airspeed aspect by just a teensy weensy amount on most helicopters will be disastrous.

Most skids are very robust against forward run on but not the other way.

There was a graphic demo of that a while back when a few burly coppers were helping to push a B206 into a hanger at Bankstown, backwards on its wheels, one of the skid shoes picked up the hangar door rail and stooped, (aw stopped I meant, but there is the message) the rest continued on and landed on its belly.

While you are chewing on that true tale the next time you're standing beside a jetty, have a look at the size of the rivets and structure holding it together, then take a casual stroll over to an R44 and have a look at it.

[Dennis Kenyon]

Naturally I get to fly with a good selection of pilots, some mightily skilful ...

Just a few weeks back I sat alongside a highly experienced Robinson guy who demonstrated a needle-split full autorotation to the ground from 750 feet AGL. The whole manoeuvre was completed at a London GA airfield from entry to touch down tail first with idling power.

I'm not easily impressed but on that occasion ... I was. The guy's handling was exceptional and please Sir ... it wasn't me. DRK.

[Dick Sanford]

For all those who wonder why the Robinson seem to have so many accidents QED,
Not so sure about the backwards landings being power off, the disc loading does not look right.

[SASless]

I believe there should have been a "Warning".....along the lines of "Kids...do not do this at Home!" regards the rearwards Landing thing.

Having flown over a lot of forest and jungle in my time....I am not sure I buy off on the concept of going into the trees in such a manner as is suggested.

My one time doing that following an Engine Failure in a Hughes 500D turned out well using the technique I had been taught by another fellow.

It started off with the admonition to land in the "Shortest, softest, leafy place possible"....then discussed the technique on how to get there with zero groundspeed, nose up slightly, and maximum Rotor RPM available to cushion your entry into the Trees where the Tree Limbs are the smallest and softest possible.

[hillberg]

Look at the rotors in the video, Little rpm change as it lands :*(a litthe power added?)
Looks fun till some one pokes out an eye.:D

[The Night Owl]

There is also a 'highly experienced Robinson guy' from the London area who happens to do some instruction in that part of the world isn't there?

If it's the same man he's certainly more than capable of this manoeuvre, I saw him pull the mixture and do a backwards auto from a hover not so long ago...very impressive :ok:

[Dennis Kenyon]

The hover reverse auto is a POC ... but I imagine one needs to up the skill level for a standard auto from height with a 180 degree turn in the final flare prior to touch down ... especially in snow! DRK.

[Dick Sanford]

I am sorry, but what part of pulling the mixture control to the full lean position and stopping the engine in flight is Impressive? Is it the same 'impressive as flying overhead a 'London' GA airfield and turning the engine off via the ignition and throwing the keys in the back of the helicopter?

[topendtorque]

True Dick, very true. I always thought a very if not most imporant part of autorotational training whether throttle is chopped or slowly wound off, happens at the point after the collective has been lowered and aircraft stabilised with the judgement by the check pilot which is confirmed by the words and action, - "Safe to reach an area, throttle in over ride check."

I only chop the throttle on a most recalcitrant subject who has been too dim to work out - or more likely was not trained properly - in the why / how that thaing on the side must be gotten down. Or first when I am checking that the carburettor is set properly and will not cause the engine to stop at throttle chop while the aircraft is still firmly attached to the ground.

At all other times it should be a gentle wind off, especially when checking the free wheel, as the more gentle you do it, the more it proves to you it will work when the engine suddenly stops. That's my simple logic any rate.


deliberately cutting the engine could lead to hard questions from the insurer.

[Hughes500]

I think throttle chop is VERY important.
1. It shows the student how quickly RRPM decays so there is none of this practice engine failure go, put collective down etc etc. in a relaxed mode
2. Also shows in a piston why you have to put in a boot of pedal and how quickly the nose drops in all helis as you put collective down ( think disc loading etc etc )
3. Also will demonstrate why where one can ones doesn't turn down wind on take off until passing through about 350 ft. (Yes I know you can do what you want but trying to teach best practice )

As for landing on snow, very impressed would suggest that there were some markers on ground or was using the person to judge height above ground !

[Helilog56]

Ummmm....some of us have spent most of our career flying in that white stuff....:p

[Hughes500]

Helilog, over here in UK we don't see too much of it now if you were talking water that would be different:eek:

[Two's in]

Clearly the pilot in the video has some good general handling skills, but in regard to the rearward touchdown, if you ask the 2 basic questions;

1. Do I need to do this?

2. If yes, could it kill me?

...they might come up a bit short on the "thinking it all the way through" category. Any time you are travelling close to the ground in a skid equipped aircraft and the skids are not parallel to the direction of travel - and in this case, pointing in the direction of travel - you have increased your risk of an unexpected outcome. Accurate flying and good handling aren't the whole story.

[Dick Sanford]

One of the problems seems to be that teaching pilots to fly safely is seen as boring and it does not feed the egotistical needs of some. The UK has an exceptional level of safe helicopter pilot training, which is the result of sound knowledge, good instructional technique combined with a strong ethos of flight safety, what is being exported is in my opinion down right irresponsible. This is pure "look at me" flying which is paramount to teaching pilots to fly the helicopter outside of the procedures within the POH, as mentioned by topedtorque; what insures think of this type of training would be interesting. This does nothing other than increase the accident rates and increase your insurance costs.
I have been conducting training in Russia for many years and hear constantly how Russian pilots are being encouraged to ignore the HV diagram by a UK pilot.

Keep your RPM in the green

D

[Dennis Kenyon]

Dear Dick,

You know I have the utmost respect for your professional words and the superb safety training and information you bring to our industry and for what my judgement is worth, in recent years, the Robinson record has been vastly improved in no small way due to your personal involvement.

BUT ... and there's always a but! It has to be the way of humans to want to investigate and explore any difficult area of human handling. Hence we have F1 racing, the Everest climbers, the Chuck Yeagers of the world who made the first supersonic flights and made Concorde possible, or the 'Round the World' fliers, the top class Rally Drivers ... and I can go on and on as we all can. You will know I taught the skills of flying to my 18-year old son but who was later lost in a helicopter that broke up in flight. Ours is an unforgiving industry. His mother never forgave me.

I don't want to overly mention display flying, especially in view of my own record ... but that discipline (either fixed wing or rotary) is a challenging and rewarding area of aviation and adds an upward notch to pilot skill levels and as we all know, such flying is hugely enjoyable for the general public and an area of flying I enjoy absolutely.

So bearing in mind, the most important aspect in flying and the other similar disciplines, is safety ... should we seek to ban such sports. Dick, I don't have the answer. In fact I've just completed an article for FLYER that seeks to invite discussion on this very subject. Would you say F1 racing or Rally Driving is responsible in any way for the number of accidents and loss of life on our roads?

All I can say is that in my 40 years of display flying, covering over 1300 displays, I've received nothing but supportive comments from the public and also from much of the aviation industry. Having said that, I have discussed the matter with many highly professional individuals such as yourself and there are more than a few highly qualified FIs/FEs who echo your thoughts. Indeed, one FE has suggested, such display flying brings a 'Cavalier' attitude to the discipline we need to teach in flying training ... something I don't really want to hear, but I would be interested to hear the views of other experienced pilots from across the pond.

Dick, the only conclusion I have come to is ... If my Salt Lake City episode should be followed by an unreasonable number of copycat accidents in our industry, then yes, perhaps the time has come to call a halt to rotary display flying. But then, are we saying we should similarly ban a highly skilled pilot whose skill levels allow him to complete a safe reverse autorotation with a 180 degree yaw pedal turn in the final flare for a rearward touch down. Nothing in that sequence violates the PFM. I can't do that manoeuvre, but I couldn't support those who would seek to stop him doing so.

I go back to the 1972 days when that wonderful pilot KD at Fairoaks Aerodrome first demonstrated a standard Bell 47 autorotation to the ground, after which he had enough rotor inertia and handling skill to lift off again for a 360 degree turn and final skids-on touch down. I can't do that one either! But, and another but ... should we ban that manoeuvre for our future pilots?

Do novice climbers rush off to Nepal to make an ascent to the summit of Everest just because the professional can do it. Aren't we talking about a better perception of the skill levels being handed down by our flying instructors? I don't have the answer Dick, but will listen avidly to the further comments from other top professionals who inhabit this site.

Safe flying to all. Dennis K.

PS. It's a 40 knot day and I'm grounded so forgive the rambling!

[Dick Sanford]

Dennis. I am sorry to hear that you are twiddling your thumbs due to the inclement weather, BUT, and there is as you say always a 'but' it has afforded you the time to pen a very thought provoking response, thank you.
I am not even going to suggest I can comprehend the impact the loss of your son must have had. I can only say that it directly effected my thoughts on the possibility of my son becoming a helicopter pilot. We (my son and I) talked about it and I was reasonably happy to teach him to fly but I am not sure if I could have got out of the helicopter and sent him solo.
It is late here in Borneo and my glass of red is evaporating so I will just respond with a quick thought.
I agree that display flying has its place in the industry and your displays have done nothing but present the helicopter in the finest traditions of aviation and I applaud you for that. I am sure there are a lot of pilots today that are pilots because they have seen your performances.

But, display is display, what we currently have is far from that.
We have a situation where pilots of unknown skill/experience levels are being taught these manoeuvres without any checks or balances, they are being taught that the HV diagram is a nonsense, where in the POH does it talk about landing the helicopter backwards from an autorotation?
As you know a display pilot has to be checked out and the routine has to be approved and forgive me if I am wrong but the display pilot is not authorised to teach other pilots to conduct the display manoeuvres.

A display pilot requires a greater level of discipline, what is the old saying? "Do not try this at home"

I look forward to reading your article, I will add to this thread tomorrow.
Dennis before I sign off, I would like to thank you personally for your truly outstanding contribution to the helicopter world.

Take care, keep your RPM in the green

D

[Hughes500]

Dick

A lot of us spend a lot of time in the HV curve( dead man's curve when I first started) when long lining. Virtually all utility flying operates in the HV curve, our American cousins call it the money curve. While I don't disagree with you that teaching the HV curve is nonsense too much emphasis maybe put on it, as you are the first to tell us that R22 engines for example are very reliable, I am sure I have seen that 90% of crashes are pilot error. With that in mind is the HV curve a kick back to when engines failed on a regular basis ???

[hillberg]

Dick doesn't long line?:= Helicopters auto fine backwards:ok:
More people die getting out of the bath tub:DDon't drop the soap.:*

[Dick Sanford]

Correct, I do not 'do' long line and helicopters auto backwards just fine.

My error, i did not explain my point on the avoid curve very well.

The point I was making was the fact that the Russian pilots are being taught throttle chops in the avoid area and the result of this is that they are lead to assume that it is not an area with an increase in risk, which is wrong.

Helicopters autorotate backwards very well and I use to demonstrate the fact often, however, landing the thing requires the pilot to be facing the direction of travel and the curvy bits are at the front for a reason.

Hillberg, I stopped having a bath for that reason, I now have a shower and use shower gel.

Keep your RPM in the green

D

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

Dennis all I can say is holy **** , i wasn't going to post ,I have been sitting on my own replaying your story in my head and feel I have to say you have paid more than anyone I know .

As for the Russians , go hard it looks awesome regardless of a practical requirement or the you shouldn't do that approach , I take my hat off and bow .

Once again Dennis your story will remain with me always.

Just a lonely mustering pilot ,
Nathan

[timprice]

Both Dennis and Dick are Leg ends, its great to here the story from both sides.
Let's hope everyone else learns something from this!
We are in and industry that is constantly in the spotlight lets keep it safe, but we still got to have fun, because I and many others have always said if your not enjoying yourself whats the point.:ok:

[tony 1969]

Surely if the helicopter was meant to land backwards the manufacturer would turn up the rear end of the skids as well ??

[Dennis Kenyon]

Why don't they ... the Olympic snow boarders do! DRK

[timprice]

Most people Dennis have no spacial awareness!:rolleyes:

[Hughes500]

Tim
What are you saying? I am aware that it is pissing down here in The SW with rather strong winds ! Also I am aware that I am not making any money or so my bank manager says !!!!!!!!:uhoh:

[Dennis Kenyon]

Many, many thanks for your warm words Nathan ... so very much appreciated ... and to take on a more serious note.

As some pruners will know, and as I prepare to retire from helicopter aviation, I like to put my thoughts into words and see other pilots and rotary aviation people become involved in the more contentious aspects of rotary handling. But coping with the loss of my son and later his mum, became the most difficult thing I've had to tackle in my lifetime and in forty years working in this sometimes mad industry. At the time I received so much support from the guys and a few gals out there I've known and often flown with. I'm not even sure I ever formally thanked you all ... something I want to do now. In the nicest way ... I love you all.

But with glass in our hand, let's get back to the main thread ... who's for a jaunty autorotation or two? DRK.

[timprice]

Did it once Dennis by mistake, lucky to get away with it.
My student and I were completing low level engine off's in a Hughes 269 and for some reason on the last one of the day he suddenly put in full left pedal instead of right, before I knew it we were flying low level backwards and just about to touch the ground so kept the flare and just pulled up the collective.
The tail rotor was not very effective in the early 269's and I consider it a lucky escape as we did slide along a little bit on the turned up part of the skid.
I remember the student getting all excited and wanting to do another auto, but I said that was enough for me, never did find out why he just put in the wrong pedal on that auto.
So I feel been there got the T shirt, its not for me, now a days if there was an incident even if minor, dont think you would have a leg to stand on any how.
The FAA has the right idea, they do auto's to the hover and they have far fewer incidents than we do in Europe, ie a perfectly serviceable helicopter written off in an EOL practice.:ok:

[Dennis Kenyon]

Yes Tim ... I certainly understand the FAA stance on 'skid-on' practice autos.

I suppose you've got to say that any accident that occurs as a result of practicing the emergency, has to absolutely unforgiveable. In my Royal Air Force days, we had the same problem with the Canberra B2 which was notoriously difficult on a single engine 'go-around.' Called overshoot in those days! The Squadrons were losing more aircraft during practice than following actual engine failures. I think something similar was happening with the Gloster Meteor. Best wishes to all. DRK