China Southern trainee bangs up a Grob - Merredin

[onetrack]

Well, I guess it's better that he bangs up a Grob, and learns what he did wrong, rather than banging up a heavy full of pax. :)

No-one hurt - just another Grob needed - it doesn't look like this one will be flying again for a while.
Meeja reports "extensive wing and tail damage" - however, the wing and tail look like they sustained minimal damage to me - but the Meeja apparently overlooked the minor nose damage .... :( :ugh:

I'm utterly amazed no-ones been out there with the black spray paint on the rego, already .... :E

Pilot survives Merredin plane crash (http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/pilot-survives-merredin-plane-crash-20140204-31yck.html)

http://images.watoday.com.au/2014/02/04/5130574/crash320-620x349.jpg

[ChaseIt]

And to think they will be jumping in the right seat with 200-300 hrs :uhoh: cough cadetships :E

[aroa]

short of the runway?? engine failure someplace in the GAFA..??

Anything specific..??

[waren9]

what was wrong with the road, also in pic?

[Jack Ranga]

He was probably aiming for the road :ok:

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

They NEVER "...jump into the right seat with 200 - 300 hours...".

Please don't let the facts get in the way of a good lark. They may well be promised a job with their sponsor-carrier, but they won't be doing any take-offs of landings with punters in the back for a few years.

Fact is, they will sit in the jumpseat working the radio while a couple of other pilots sit in the front seat (both of whom will have been with the airline for a good few years).

Progression is from jumpseat of narrowbody, to jumpseat of widebody (although they might be allowed into the front seat of either earlier, they won't be PF for the actual T/O or LDG with pax onboard - not even when TCs or CCs are in the left seat ((always some few exceptions to the rule, but...)), then back to narrowbody to learn how to fly airliners before being promoted to Captain on narrowbody. The whole schlemiel takes about 5 to 8 years.

This poor beggar will probably be washed-out by CSA as a result of his 'embarrassing performance'. I feel a bit sorry for him.

[Chocks Away]

Sad to see... at least they walked away so that's a win! :ok:

Going on further, some DO go straight into the right seat after their condensed training in Oz/NZ etc... India, Indonesia, Singapore crew to name just a few.
The big issue that really needs to be tackled fiercely, given this lack of co-ordination skills* is "The Magenta Generation". Further reference and discussion is here on Pprune (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/514927-children-magenta-rage-against-machine.html) also.

*:Having seen it first hand and with accidents such as Asiana/SFO & other occurrences (many which escape media attention such as hard landings etc) it is becoming a real issue.
Discussing this with colleagues from other parts of the world one night together it was interesting what came about. Parallels in life were used, from different cultures and a consensus came about, that sadly many in the Asian & other cultures simply don't have the same depth perception, motor skills and co-ordination due to their protected upbringing... ie they have never climbed a ladder/tree to get off the ground; never driven a car/operated machinery; never been active in team sports/large groups which rely on peripheral vision and open team feedback/co-ordination...

I could go on but won't but just hope that this reply of mine gives some of you something to chew on and motivates some at least, to look at themselves in a room full of mirrors (as we all do, regularly, in this industry!) and adapt accordingly, in this knowledge.

Happy landings :ok:

[Mail-man]

Chocks, sounds the same as how the WW2 Japs would be terrible pilots because their mothers carried them too long as toddlers and had underdeveloped proprioception, utter rubbish....

[Chocks Away]

Proprioception is the word thanks Mail-man but not "utter rubbish"... unless you wish to go against consensus of those that live and deal with it on a daily basis... of course, there are those that deny the studies and the existence of it but that's where the accidents are about to happen. :ugh:

[Robssupra]

Our company is somewhere around 30% SO/MPL and this guys fly, narrow/wide body, right seat, from day one once they come out of sim. Bare in mind MPL guys are in the sim with 20-30Hrs total Cessna time.

:ugh:


:mad:

[C441]

Bare in mind...

Is that the same as inexperienced? :cool:

[The Bullwinkle]

sounds the same as how the WW2 Japs would be terrible pilots because their mothers carried them too long as toddlers and had underdeveloped proprioception, utter rubbish....


I guess that's how the Kamikaze pilot's came to be. Really good at take-offs but just couldn't get the landings right! :}

[onetrack]

Of course, we've all seen how Asians drive and park their cars! - so we'd naturally expect they'd be pretty bad at driving aircraft, too! :E

Seriously; there are people with natural skills - and those who can't handle a rubber sword without injuring themselves.
The trick is having instructors who can determine fairly rapidly whether a person has the innate ability to handle what he's being taught to drive - and whether that person has the good judgement to match.
In this case, this trainee looks to be falling short on ability to judge an unstable approach in gusty conditions.
He'd better work on improving that judgement - because I'd hate to see him make a serious error of judgement later on, when he's driving a bus-load of pax onto the ground.

[VH-XXX]

All pretty quick to come to a conclusion as per normal...

Why is only 1 prop blade bent?
Where is the TAF?
Where is the pre-crash picture from airliners.net?
Where is Planky?
Where are the "lets wait for the ATSB" comments?

[Fratemate]

XXX, that made me laugh. You have got a few of the inane comments though, including some who can't even be bothered to read the article and wonder what caused the crash, those who think that the shape of someone's eyes or where they were born determines their piloting skills (no matter that they were trained by Australian instructors in Australia) and even somebody trotting out that tedious diatribe about the Children Of Magenta :hmm:

I'm just glad the fantastic training, skill and superiority of being Australian means we never f*#k up :ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Where is the TAF?
Will a METAR do? (http://www.wunderground.com/history/station/95624/2014/2/4/DailyHistory.html?HideSpecis=0)

[Jack Ranga]

Fratemate, rather simplistic view there mate! Do you reckon the 777 accident at San Fran would have happened to any American airline? Or any Australian airline?

[Fratemate]

Jack,

I appreciate the SFO crash was a c o c k up of the very highest order (it comes out with 'dog' if I don't insert spaces), entirely preventable and the causes of it were greatly influenced by Asian 'culture' issues. Being based in Asia I am also very aware of those types of issues.

However, while everyone carps on about the abilities of Asian pilots on the basis of that accident we ignore some pretty big screw ups by non-Asian carriers. It has been very fortunate that no deaths have occurred but that has been more luck than judgement: SWA landing at the wrong airport and, just prior to that, the 748 doing the same thing. Both good operators, both screwed up royally and were just lucky the concrete was long enough in both incidents or the results could have been very different and there would be baying for blood of all American pilots because they can't get basic stuff like that right. What of BA that managed to hit a dirty great building? Unlikely to result in deaths, I know, but still a good example of a non-Asian carrier, with well trained pilots, damaging a perfectly good aircraft on a gin-clear day/night.

Mine might be a rather simplistic view but the Grob incident raised such idiotic suggestions that I couldn't let it pass without comment. Kamikaze pilots, idiotic video regarding modern flight decks etc; would these same topics been aired if the pilot was an Australian student who crashed a Jandakot trainer in the same weather or will that simply never happen because he's not Asian?

[Jack Ranga]

Fair enough, all good points :ok: and yes the generalisations are a bit broad.

[Chocks Away]

...would these same topics been aired if the pilot was an Australian student who crashed a Jandakot trainer in the same weather...

Yes, to put it frankly they would because it's not only an issue of cultural background but relevant to certain younger generations now too.

The SFO B777 Asiana accident was caused by the fact that he (they, in the cockpit) lack skills flying visual approaches PLUS a huge lack of mode awareness... i.e. the Autothrottle was off when he was depending on automation to recover i.e. he was expectant on and wanting to "follow the magenta" flight director bars. No basic stick and rudder skils or left-to-right-to-left scan of IAS/Att/Alt-sink rate. Crickey, the green trend arrow below Vref on the B777 speed tape is a warning there also.

Oh how easy to "call the race card" to try and divert the discussion... (something Labour and the Greens are brilliant at!).
Facts are, regardless of what race/colour you wish to tag/pigeon-hole people: we have (like Sth Africa etc) a G.A environment with alot of smaller aircraft where experience is gained. China etc don't. Many of us here as kids climbed trees, played fast & strong team sports where height; depth perception; peripheral vision and speaking up were learnt (often from broken bones)... we drove cars early and learnt to deal with the sensation of speed and depth perception early on... many others in China/Singapore etc simply don't or haven't. They travel on mass public transport or taxis which someone else is co-ordinating while their heads are buried in their smartphones; they don't own let alone drive a car etc etc.

The same accidents are occurring elswhere, yes Fratemate, such as Turkey, India... such as heavy landings but on bigger aircraft!

My comments served only to try and broaden the discussion, from personal experiences of myself and many other experienced airline crew mates, over what is a very real and growing safety issue. The comments were meant to entice further discussion. They were general in nature and not specific on the Grob itself. If you wish to call it bollocks, well you scratch the surface of the younger Generational issue I alluded to earlier, where they are dismissive, egocentric and reluctant to learn from history.
I won't go on, just run for the bunker now :}

[Jack Ranga]

No chocks, would prefer you kept posting :ok:

[tecman]

So do you have anything constructive to offer Chocks, short of confining piloting to white Anglo Saxon males over 50 who have billy-cart tickets, and who don't vote for lefties? You're welcome to your rant but you could actually have cited some very respectable work where open-minded aviation professionals have attempted to recognize and address in training some of the more common cultural biases. The 'power distance' study to which some Asian and Hispanic operators paid particular attention comes to mind.

I look forward to your next exposure of the failings of ham-fisted, pig-headed, impulsive, red-neck bogans in the cockpit. Not like we don't have the odd cultural issue of our own.

[airdualbleedfault]

Sorry to rain on your parade, these guys do go straight to the right seat of a widebody, depending on their parents standing in the communist party, Dragonair used to do same but now they start right seat 320. Sure, they might not all do that, but some do.
If their parents are really important, they could have a widebody command in 2 years, welcome to China.
(reference : I worked there for 5 years)

[LeadSled]

If their parents are really important, they could have a widebody command in 2 years, welcome to China.

airdualbleedfault,
Would you like to back up that statement, in my opinion, and based on my experience in China, I say that is utter rubbish.
Tootle pip!!

[Jack Ranga]

Love it when a person who has experienced the factors we're discussing but hasn't obtained his PHD & written several papers on the topic gets howled down for having the arrogance to have an opinion. Love it :ok:

Where do you reckon researchers get their material from nob?

And the good ole rascist card, yeahhhh! Rascist for having a fact based opinion :D

[peterc005]

The problem is, Jack, you don't understand the difference between a fact and an anecdote.

[Global Aviator]

Cadets it's the way of the future and has been the way of the past in Europe for years.

Cadets are training specifically for the multi crew environment and airline world. Yes problem is that then all of their experience is gained in the RHS, so then it's up to the line captains not to be dicks and empart personal knowledge. I have never had a problem with a cadet, never had an issue going for a piss and leaving him to drive the bird, that's what he trained for. Yes experience can't be bought but it can in ways be taught.

Be honest had any of us had the opportunity in there early 20's to grab a cadetship and get in the RHS, who wouldn't of???

I'm glad I didn't have the opportunity as the best 15 years of my flying life was GA. I feel sorry for cadets missing out on this chunk of aviation. Love showing them ole pics of Barons on dirt strips, a 206 in the middle of no where...

It sickens me to see the racist bull**** on here and life in general. We all screw up, I watched a grog crash in Jandakot, not Asian not cadet, so why did he crash? According some here he shouldn't have cause he's white.

Now what would be said on here if one of the white virgin cadets had something similar during traing?

[Chocks Away]

GlobalA, yes I agree with your first part regarding cadets and such courses do take time to improve or change where weaknesses are evident. It's a very fluid environment as we as pilots, are continually learning and grappling with newer technologies... but you fall down when you "pull out the race card" again, just like Tecman.

Yes, other "white cadets" (your words) have had incidents and accidents in their training... just read the safety journals. The info's out there, you've just gotta find it (instead of being spoon fed on here!)

Tecman... something to offer? Realising, discussing and understanding the problem is the first step, before any progress can be made. Denial and saying people are racist only stunts the progress. The fact is we are all different and all with our own strengths and weaknesses. Better people than I are already well onto it and have implemented scenarios into Airline Cyclic checks and regular CRM courses, to try and streamline cultural differences. A great example close to home maybe Garuda with their regaining EU approval after their big improvements in training, safety management and oversight. Their own Indonesia is very culturally diverse, without even taking into account the expats. EK is another where cultural diversity had to be accounted for. Simplifying checklists back to basic Boeing checklists, instead of combined Boeing/Airbus (and abit more) checklists (aka SQ) was one way it was easier for multiple cultures to adapt and streamline into safer ops (given eaches strengths & weaknesses).

"I'm proud of being black" said the African... to which the Asian replied "I'm also proud of being yellow and strong". The Middle Eastern fellow also spoke up saying "I'm also very proud to be an Arab"... and "I'm also proud to be a white Anglo-saxon" said the racist... !

Happy landings:ok:

[Jack Ranga]

The problem is Pete you don't know sh!t from clay ;) back to your jetstar PR thread mate :D

[Capn Bloggs]

Tecman, pull your head in and get off whatever that stuff is you're sniffing. CA's posts are hardly racist.

[tecman]

Chocks, I read your last posting with interest and found it informative. No problem with accounting for cultural biases in training or operations, as I noted before. I'm simply contending that your other post added nothing, and taking your position to its conclusion, would (a) dry up the pilot supply in short order and (b) ignore cultural biases close to hand.

So far as I'm aware there's no column-inch limit here and no censoring of viewpoints. You're welcome to your space, but expect those whom you offend to respond.

[Jack Ranga]

His entirely valid views offended you? It looked a well reasoned argument based on experience to me.

[smiling monkey]

There are a few commercial pilots of Asian descent, born and raised in Australia and thereby adhering to the Australian way of life and culture. They seem to be able to keep the blue side up and not bend too many planes. With that in mind what Chocks Away posted seems to be pretty much on the ball. It's not so much the genes you were born with, but the safety culture that you've been brought up with that makes the difference.

[Jack Ranga]

Now, now. We must avoid offending sensibilities by posting anecdotes.

[airdualbleedfault]

Leadsled, by your naivety, not believing that sort of thing could happen in China, is pretty much proof positive you've never worked for a Chinese airline and probably never been to China. How on earth would I prove it to you even if I wanted to?
And yes, a colleague of mine taught a cadet for a Chinese airline who was a widebody captain in a little over 2 years

[LeadSled]

and probably never been to China

airdualbleedfault,
The above will come as a surprise to my colleagues and the people I deal with in China, even more of a surprise to some of the China Southern Sky Pearl Club staff, who seem to have come to know me quite well.

Just to further confirm your views of my naivety, I guess I only imagined the last 20 years of so of involvement with one particular airline in China and its training policies, and the consequent (in my opinion) very high standard of cadet graduates.

What you really mean is you are retelling third or fourth hand stories and you don't actually have direct evidence of your claims.

Tootle pip!!

[Virtually There]

Many of us here as kids climbed trees, played fast & strong team sports where height; depth perception; peripheral vision and speaking up were learnt (often from broken bones)... we drove cars early and learnt to deal with the sensation of speed and depth perception early on... many others in China/Singapore etc simply don't or haven't. They travel on mass public transport or taxis which someone else is co-ordinating while their heads are buried in their smartphones; they don't own let alone drive a car etc etc
What a load of ill-informed crap.

While you were riding around in mummy's car, sleeping on your soft mattresss and waking up each morning to watch cartoons and eat your sugar cereal, a lot of Chinese kids - especially in the north and more remote parts - were trekking or riding their bikes to school through humid summers, snow blizzards and Siberian winds. They came home from school and worked in the fields or went hunting on foot or horseback with their fathers. They played team sports and practiced martial arts. They learned to shoot rifles and tackle obstacle courses and other drills as part of their compulsory military training. In later years, they learned to ride scooters and motorcycles - weaving in and out of dense, at times fast-flowing traffic - better than I've seen most Aussies drive to the shops, slowing down in their massive 4WDs to go over speed-humps. They studied to all hours while supporting their extended families as the pressure mounted to school and fight their way out of poverty - while all most Aussie kids had to worry about was what brand cricket bat they were getting for Christmas.

And you reckon they don't speak up? Do you think Australia would ever see the likes of Tiananmen Square and its fearless students facing down tanks and guns as they called for socio-political change in one of the oldest civilisations on earth? The only time most Aussies "speak up" is to complain about not getting enough middle-class welfare or tax breaks. And they only vote (when they can be arsed!) for the nastiest, most selfish right-wing politicians who make the biggest promises to keep them soft and rich in the comfort of their over-inflated 5x3 homes!

Mobile phones and public transport? How long have you been paying attention to China? 10 years? 15? I lived there longer than that and saw things in the 80s and 90s you obviously have never imagined. Long before there were mobile phones or modern commuter trains.

The SFO pilots you are talking about were Koreans - completely different paternalistic culture to the Chinese, bordering on almost feudalistic societal structures.

The Japanese grow up with cars - probably have the best "depth perception" and spatial awareness on the road I've ever seen; and have lightning reflexes honed on video games your kids are yet to even see! The Japanese live and breathe motorsport.

Some of those Chinese pilots, meanwhile, will have been amongst the best and brightest from a population of 1.5 billion. They may have started a long way behind in terms of capitalist trimmings and air transport, but they are catching up so fast that people like you are going to wonder where they all went in a decade or two from now.

In fact, people like you will still be wondering in 20 years time where the hell it all went wrong for Australia when we have no industry, a buggered economy and why China owns and sells our souls.

Think I'm spinning a yarn? Middle-class white Australia never saw the Japs coming until they were almost on our doorstep. And if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour . . .

But hey, that kind of thing could never happen to we superior white people again. Could it? :rolleyes:

[WJAPilot]

Great Post !!


WJP

[Capn Bloggs]

China owns and sells our souls.
Dictatorships and controlled currencies are like that...

[Virtually There]

Sure. But it's also reality. And complaining about it is simply the metaphorical equivalent of lying on the ground, crying about getting kicked in the nuts in a street fight instead of getting up and fighting back. All's fair in love, war and economics, after all . . .

Likewise, we could probably have a good old debate about the structural benefits of a quasi-benign single-party system (bearing in mind China is not - technically - a dictatorship) and how central planning gets things done through collective foresight and tough socio-economic decisions without having to pander to whimsical voters, monied interest groups and lobbyists every three years (never mind the impact on individual freedoms - the nation as a whole advances). But that's not the point.

The point is, argue the merits of a lack of GA culture in Asia, argue the merits of the system of selection, argue the training methods, or even argue about the commitment of the pilots being put up (as you know, quite a number of Chinese pilots don't even want to be pilots, but have been cajoled by parents or singled out by other institutions for training - not so different to the Western world wanting all its sons and daughters to be doctors, laywers, and accountants), but don't start talking crap about "depth perception", "peripheral vision" and perceived cultural character flaws - because it's just wrong.

Generalising about something (or someone) you plainly don't understand or have little experience with is not only embarrassing, it obscures the real debate. Annecdotes are not facts - as someone else has already pointed out - so why perpetuate the "myopic little Chinaman with the funny walk and talk" stereotype of the 19th Century in this day and age, where that same "Chinaman" is now rivaling the US as a superpower? That just shows there must be some very capable people in China and that maybe - just maybe - they are not as culturally and physically inferior as some of us would wish to believe. That type of thinking simply works to benefit our economic rivals to our own detriment.

Rant over.

[Chocks Away]

Yeh, yuh finished yet?
Damn, have a Valium pal! :ugh:
You have some big chips on your shoulder and skepticism over a place you apparently call home -Australia. You have read what you wanted to read or what you THOUGHT I was saying and gone on a tantrum... falling into the same trap as those earlier in the piece saying I was racist over Chinese... you are "calling the racist card"!
Lets get things straight:

The SFO pilots you are talking about were Koreans - completely different paternalistic culture to the Chinese, blah blah blah DER:ugh: ...since when did I say they were Chinese?

Middle-class white Australia never saw the Japs coming...
...and saw things in the 80s and 90s you obviously have never imagined. Long before there were mobile phones or modern commuter trains. etc etc. Relevance? We're discussing current times please.

...so why perpetuate the "myopic little Chinaman with the funny walk and talk" stereotype... you're doing a good job of this not me! Reread my posts and note references to other countries and the use of "etc"!

The Japanese I've flown with have been good... "honed on video games (and motorsport)... but younger generations seem too reliant on the "magenta line", like many other countries.

Generalising about something (or someone) you plainly don't understand or have little experience with is not only embarrassing, it obscures the real debate. Annecdotes are not facts ...just like you're generalising about me pal eh? Anecdotes? Fine, if that's your opinion but these are facts littered all through the crash mags and the potential bain of many a Training Dept, if not already onto it. Here's one recent effort (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20140201-0) already attributed to handling skills.

To finish, I'll re-iterate:"My comments served only to try and broaden the discussion. Thanks for your input.

[Virtually There]

I was born and raised here - as were six generations of my family (if that makes any difference). But I also studied Chinese and lived there for many years, so I'm at least in a decent position to compare the two cultures you raised in your first post:

Discussing this with colleagues from other parts of the world one night together it was interesting what came about. Parallels in life were used, from different cultures and a consensus came about, that sadly many in the Asian & other cultures simply don't have the same depth perception, motor skills and co-ordination due to their protected upbringing... ie they have never climbed a ladder/tree to get off the ground; never driven a car/operated machinery; never been active in team sports/large groups which rely on peripheral vision and open team feedback/co-ordination...

I'm in no position to argue with experienced airline pilots about topics that are way beyond my simple GA experience.

Nor am I going to argue there isn't currency in coming up through GA ranks in terms of practical experience and motor-skills development - though I do note most military pilots (who make up a large percentage of airline pilots around the world) don't spend 15 years in Cessnas, either.

What I object to is the sterotyping of people who have "never climbed a ladder/tree to get off the ground; never driven a car/operated machinery; never been active in team sports/large groups which rely on peripheral vision and open team feedback/co-ordination" etc.

Mate, have you not - at the very least - been to Hong Kong/Beijing/Shangahi and seen the way those guys hang off bamboo scaffolding hundreds of meters in the air? Have you seen how tall those buildings are? You wouldn't get me up there for quids!

Have you never seen Asians playing soccer - arguably one of the most demanding sports there is in terms of "proprioception" and team coordination? (Let's not even talk about how well China did in the last Olympics.)

As for "protected upbringings", nothing could be further from the truth for most Chinese kids - especially those living outside the major cities.

With respect, you are stereotyping and - even if there is evidence to back your claims (and I concede that in some cases there will be) - the issue is more complex than that.

Statistically, most Chinese cadets come from well-to-do families and likely have had privileged upbringings. But they're just the first wave and, as China develops, the industry will open up to more and more young Chinese kids who want to be pilots but wouldn't have had the means in the past. It's already happening.

The point is, it's a bit of a long bow to suggest that culture is the primary cause of safety issues in aviation when in fact it is likely a socio-economic issue that is fast being addressed.

Indeed, I would argue that any decent instructor should be able spot a student's strengths and weaknesses and play to one while addressing the other.

If Asian pilots lack stick and rudder skills, then why isn't that being addressed here, where they train? I certainly don't believe they're automatically behind the eight-ball because they've "never climbed a tree" - which, again, is patently wrong.

I'm sorry if I appear to be unfairly hammering you over this, but it's something I hear time and time again - "Asians can't fly/drive/park etc because they're all uncoordinated wall flowers" - based on outdated notions of cultural upbringing.

It's simply a red herring to say Asians - especially Chinese - lack coordination, depth perception and motor skills when they are some of the most skilled sportsmen/gymnasts/acrobats/jugglers/martial artists/whatever in the world!

And please, don't get me wrong: I very much respect your aviation experience and knowledge. But on this particular topic, I believe you and others are barking up the wrong tree.

Good thing I know how to climb one! ;)

[boxerpilot]

Well said.

[Jack Ranga]

Well, I thought both were good posts. On the one hand you have a professional pilot with his observations on the other someone who has lived amongst the Chinese.

The difference is tone: One is measured, calm. The other 'you're a d!ckhead, don't know what you're talking about'

Pity really, interesting viewpoints & good arguments.

[dubbleyew eight]

I'll bet the chinese can't play ping pong.
too uncoordinated. :E

[Virtually There]

I'm happy to apologise for the tone of my first post. I'll certainly admit it went a little over the top (hey, late night, a few bevvies and a bee in my bonnet - waddayaknow?).

But I don't recall telling anyone they were a d!ckhead. And I highlighted only the parts which I thought were ill-informed. I don't believe it was an open-slather attack on everything he wrote.

[Jack Ranga]

You didn't use the d!ckhead word, just came across a bit that way! Great post by the way, made me have a think about the argument :D

[Virtually There]

I agree. Which is why I apologised and made a point of respecting his position and experience.

I think the whole "proprioceptive" issue did a disservice to his original argument. Regardless, he's entitled to his opinion - as we all are. Which is one good thing about living in a free country! :p

[Ozgrade3]

As someone who has been training Chinese cadets for the last 7 years, I find some of the comments on here breathtakingly ill-informed and naive. Let me put the peripheral vision thing to rest immediately. Theirs is as good if not better than mine or any other 'westerner".

The main problem is social cultural. The one child policy has bred a generation of spoiled "emperors". Their parents naturally dote on them, and having the parents and often the extended family as well living in the same house lends itself to having a child being spoiled and never having to do anything for itself. This has been told to me by some of the more worldly cadets them selves. Indeed, some cadets are quite open in their criticism of China, their government and their own culture.

The cadets are universally talented, way smarter than I ever could hope to be, and great guys (mostly). They are sociable, engaging, mostly respectful, at times lazy, but will produce staggering work when pushed. They know how to throw a great party without the agro found in Aussie parties. I count a vast number of ex cadets as personal friends and correspond with them regularly. Indeed many still write to me for advice. As I'm not a "jet" driver, I can only offer encouragement and an ear. My first is about to make 777 Captain so I guess I must have done something right.

Skills wise they can match anything we do, however immaturity and lack of experience at thinking for ones self is their biggest negative. Some blossom in the training environment far from home, some struggle. The best would be more than competitive with any Australian.

China will not match America as a superpower at least in military terms for a couple of generations. Their social structure is far too rigid, and most of the flash military hardware is more for show. But as China absorbs more western influences, that will be a whole new ball game in the future. It's quite ironic that they adore USA basketball and call their college years Freshman, sophomore years etc.

Yes, China and it's cadets have some issues, but they have a single minded focus that we in the west have lost.

As for me, I count it as a blessing to have had this experience.

P.s. The cadet who beat me at table tennis, 21-Zot...3 games in a row, most certainly had nothing with his vision, peripheral or otherwise.

[Jack Ranga]

Now that would have to be the most outstanding thing I've read in what? Years.........

On the one hand:

I find some of the comments on here breathtakingly ill informed and naive.

Then:

The main problem is social cultural. The one child policy has bred a generation of spoiled "emperors". Their parents naturally dote on them, and having the parents and often the extended family as well living in the same house lends itself to having a child being spoiled and never having to do anything for itself.

Criticizing others for their 'anecdotes' then posting a gold standard one of your own. Absolute bloody gold :D

[zanthrus]

Maybe so Jack but he is absolutely correct.

Obviously you have never worked as CSWAFC or you would understand.
Z!

[Jack Ranga]

I'm not saying he's incorrect, far from it. What I am saying is that there's plenty of points of view on here that probably have the basis of fact. For one person to put their hand up and say, 'I'm right, I know what factors caused the prang, the rest of you don't know what you're talking about' is a bit rich eh.

[Virtually There]

Little Emporer Syndrome: Little Emperor Syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Emperor_Syndrome)

I don't think it's annecdotal - it has been documented for some time, now. The Chinese themselves were the first to recognise it.

Regardless, Ozgrade3's observations are aligned with my own experience (not the instructing part, just the socio-cultural observations).

[43Inches]

One thing I've seen a lot of at various flying schools that deal with international students is instructors that lack experience/aptitude blaming the students for various things. Laziness, racial and cultural background, lil emporers etc... Generally it comes from teachers that have one set of tricks and if the student can't understand then it must be something wrong with them. The only real problem is the barrier of English comprehension, once you have a bridge for that you just adjust your techniques for the individuals personality. There will always be some that excel and others that fall behind but that has nothing to do with their race, creed or culture.

I have found the majority of Chinese students to be very hard working and intelligent individuals that can work together to achieve. The biggest problem is miss-understanding of instructions due to language, they may carry the wrong idea for hours of training due to this and it can be frustrating.

Of course there is always a few students of any background that are hard work and need to be pushed to achieve or persuaded to find other lines of work.

[mattyj]

They should all study the movie flight and learn by rote several quotes from the legendary captain "Whip" Whittaker before they begin cadet training..

Flight Movie Trailer (2012) - YouTube

"no one could've landed that plane like I did.."