How to log hours on a private plane

[aless85]

Hi

Technical question here..

Im about to rent a C310 in spain, I have an EASA CPL ME IR

I have never flown that plane before, I understand my license allows me to flight that plane without flying with an Instructor.

But since the plane is privately owned, if I do a checkout with the owner and he is not an FI do I still log those hours as PIC ???

And finally since is a private and not an ATO FTO, how do I put them in the logbook, just my signature on the logbook page is enough or does the owner has to sign my logbook as well??

Thank you for the replies !!

[RTN11]

If it's a qualified FI and it is a check out, I would log that as dual.

Depends what you're planning to use the time for though, will it actually be towards a licence application, or is it just general time in your book?

People get so worried about how or what to log, but you've only got to think about what it's actually for.

If it's for a revalidation, or an initial issue of a rating, you have to be pretty careful. If it's only going towards total time for either a future ATPL application, or for a potential employer to look at, I really wouldn't get that worried about it.

[aless85]

The owner is not a FI nor FE

The time is not towards a rating or licence is just to build more hours.

I was doing some reading and correct me if wrong.

Can I put the owners name as PIC, Log time as PIC and put on Remarks PIC(US) with the signature of the guy.????

[RTN11]

If it's a single pilot aircraft, you're either the PIC or you're not.

You need to discuss this with the owner before hand, and if you are insured to fly as PIC, and he isn't going to intervene during the flight, you can log PIC.

If he is PIC and you are just demonstrating your ability to fly, but on all the other aircraft paperwork he is PIC, there is nothing you can legally log. In this case, I would personally write the flight in the logbook, make it clear that it was only logged for interest's sake, and not include the time in any totals. I use an electronic logbook which makes this easier.

PICUS only applies if it's an exam, an integrated course, or a multi-pilot aircraft. On a single pilot aircraft it has no relevance.

[aless85]

Ok thank for the info ! I got the Idea!

Now as you know the hours in the logbook should be stamped or something to verify you actually flown the hours, being this a private guy not a training organization, should I include his signature in the logbook or just my signature is enough??? Since he doesnt have a company STAMP

[RTN11]

Again, why would you need to have him sign them if it isn't forming part of an application to any authority?

If you own a plane and build hours in it, you fill up your logbook and sign it to say you've been honest.

If you want him to sign it, I'm sure he will, but I really don't see what it adds. You should sign your own logbook to legally state that the hours are true, if you then get audited and they find they are not, it's you that's in trouble not this other guy.

[aless85]

Now it's all very clear!!

I do understand that when you sign the Logbook yourself you state those hours are TRUE.
Did had the doubt that needed more verification!

Thank you for your time to reply to all my question!:ok:

[FlyingStone]

According to EASA, each MEP type requires differences training (with FI/CRI) if I am not mistaken...

[OhNoCB]

FlyingStone, that is how I believe it to be also.

[BillieBob]

That is correct. If you have not flown a C310 before then you must complete differences training with a suitably qualified instructor, who must certify the training in your logbook. It is not necessary for the differences training to take place in an ATO.

[RTN11]

FCL.710 Class and type ratings – variants
(a) In order to extend his/her privileges to another variant of aeroplane within one
class or type rating, the pilot shall undertake differences or familiarisation training.
In the case of variants within a type rating, the differences or familiarisation training
shall include the relevant elements defined in the operational suitability data
established in accordance with Part-21.

Looking into CAP804, would that not also apply to an SEP rating? Surely a PA28 is a different variant to a C172?

[mad_jock]

Nope they are both single engine single pilot none complex old heaps.

Which I might add I love flying.

[aless85]

I have been Reading FCL.710

And yes as I have never flown that type of A/C before I do need training from a Qualified Instructor.

I have been in touch with a flight school already and next week I will fly 2H with an Instructor to get a Checkout on that specific A/C.

Do I need to get an Endorsement on my Logbook, or just those hours flown are enough proof to be proficient?

I have starting reading the POH and Checklist to get familiar with the plane and spend the minimum amount of money with an instructor as you all know is very expensive to fly a multi in EU...

Thank you all for the useful replies!!

[RTN11]

True Mad jock, but a duchess and a Seneca are both Multi Engine Piston, so would one need to do familiarisation training legally before they flew one for the first time?

My MEP is long expired, but looking to potentially get it back up and running.

Just the first time I've read that section of cap 804. Don't want to start another nit picking argument over each individual word used in the legal text :sad:

[mad_jock]

yep because the have a handle to get the gear up and down. And an extra couple of levers to fanny around with next to the power levers.

And a system to get the gear down if said handle doesn't work.

So yes you do now have to get signed off on each type of complex twin.


I too have looked at getting it back but apparently I have to do the whole lot again to learn how to use cowl flaps and mixture levers. Despite flying over 1000 sectors a year in a turboprop.

[RTN11]

I too have looked at getting it back but apparently I have to do the whole lot again to learn how to use cowl flaps and mixture levers. Despite flying over 1000 sectors a year in a turboprop.

Any idea what the cut off is for having to redo all the training? The renewal text just says training as required, which any sensible flight school taking in a regular turbo prop flyer would just give minimum training, and a test.

I've heard some mention 3 years, some mention 7, if it's expired longer than that you have to redo the whole MEP course? Is any of that correct, or would it just be training as required (could just be one hour).

Mine expired a year or so ago, so just thinking about the future and keeping the rating alive, if I could just renew every other year and keep it ticking over could be cheaper than a whole course if I find one day I want/need the rating.

[BillieBob]

aless85 - FCL.710(c) - The differences training shall be entered in the pilot's logbook or equivalent record and signed by the instructor as appropriate.

RTN11 - Differences training is not required between different aircraft in the SEP class except where indicated in the EASA Type Ratings and Licence Endorsement List (http://www.easa.europa.eu/certification/experts/docs/oeb-general/List_of_Aeroplanes_--_Class_and_Type_Ratings_and_Endorsement_List-13012014.pdf). Scroll down to Table 10 and you will see exactly where differences training is required. The cut-off for MEP differences training is 2 years (see FCL.710(b))

[OhNoCB]

BillieBob, that table always confuses me a bit I have to admit. To me it implies that no differences training is required between MEP aircraft, although I believe that it is.

[BillieBob]

When I queried this some years ago with EASA I was told that the 'D' against a single row, as in the case of MEP(L) and MEP(S) class ratings was meant to indicate that differences training was required between all aircraft types within the class. In any case, I notice that there is now a note in Table 1 of the list that reads "difference training is required with every MEP (land) listed in table 10", which seems to remove all doubt.

[OhNoCB]

I missed the note, thank-you for pointing it out!

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Previous posts refer to SEP....did I miss something.?


I flew many different MEP and SEP and never (in the stone age) had any formal check out, from anyone...After I passed my Twin rating test.


From Apache (for the test), even then C310, the C337 the PA31, and onwards.


Only needed a written and check ride when these were operated for hire and reward.


Biggest joke was the C172 Check ride for Aerial Work, on our AOC.


Time for bed now.