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Chuck Ellsworth
29th Jan 2014, 21:43
There are a lot of pilots who use the wing down sideslip method to keep their airplane tracking the runway center line on the final approach to landing.

Do they fly their cross country tracks using the wing down side slip method to maintain the desired track?

3 Point
29th Jan 2014, 22:22
I shouldn't have thought so; what's your point???

Piper.Classique
29th Jan 2014, 22:22
What is an appropriate technique for one phase of flight is not necessarily so for another.
In answer to your question as far as I am concerned, I sideslip on final in a crosswind. When flying crosscountry I fly the heading that will enable me to maintain my desired track. Or follow the motorway. Whatever.

Lord Spandex Masher
29th Jan 2014, 22:38
I'd have thought that landing sideways (past a point anyway) is less desirable than flying sideways.

Chuck Ellsworth
29th Jan 2014, 22:43
I shouldn't have thought so; what's your point???

My point is really quite simple.

I am trying to understand why anyone would cross control an airplane on final approach to correct for drift when you can fly wings level correcting for drift down to the landing flare.

In another thread I asked how many times you have been a passenger in a big jet and had to suffer through a wing down sideslip during the final approach?

These flying forums can be a great method to discuss how we are taught to fly airplanes, and side slipping down the final approach is one of the issues that I could never understand why it is taught.

Over the past sixty years I have never flown an airplane that could not be comfortably flown to the flare pointed into wind in a wings level attitude.....so why would I side slip down final approach...I just find that to be unorthodox.

Remember ... I am merely expressing my own opinion on this and trying to understand why so many other pilots choose to do it the hard way.

riverrock83
29th Jan 2014, 23:01
How many times has this been asked on this forum?

Simple answer, is because wing down is easier to maintain stability right down to touching the ground.

Alternative is having to use a boot full of rudder at the last moment, then sudden use of aileron to stop the wind blowing you side ways when you straighten up.

Larger aircraft have more momentum, meaning they are less prone to being pushed sideways in the wind once you straighten. Also some large aircraft (737?) have twisting main wheels, so you don't have to straighten till you touch the ground.

jecuk
29th Jan 2014, 23:30
What a strange question. Both ways work. Why does it matter which method is employed?

Chuck Ellsworth
30th Jan 2014, 00:15
Simple answer, is because wing down is easier to maintain stability right down to touching the ground.

Objectively I find it to be more difficult to sideslip down final than fly controls neutral pointed into wind.....but of course you may find your method easier.

Alternative is having to use a boot full of rudder at the last moment, then sudden use of aileron to stop the wind blowing you side ways when you straighten up.

I have literally flown tens of thousands of approaches and never ever had any difficulty using rudder to align the airplane with the runway with co-ordinated into wind aileron as needed to land.

Larger aircraft have more momentum, meaning they are less prone to being pushed sideways in the wind once you straighten. Also some large aircraft (737?) have twisting main wheels, so you don't have to straighten till you touch the ground.

Yes, heavier aircraft have more inertia....light aircraft are designed so their flight controls will react in direct peroration to the airspeed they are deflected at to maintain control of all three axises.

And once again I have never ever flown any airplane that could not be landed using the crab/flare/ yaw the nose method for landing.

Speaking of twisting main wheels......

They are called X/ wind landing gear.

I clearly remember one approach and landing I did in a DC3 with X/wind gear on a narrow strip by Hudson Bay, the X/wind was really strong and I was crabbing about thirty degrees to the left to fly the center line and the X/wind gear worked so well I was able to touch down and roll out with the nose still pointed thirty degrees into wind....it was weird having to look so far to the right to see the runway to flare touch down and roll out..

What a strange question. Both ways work. Why does it matter which method is employed?


Why is my question strange?

Of course both ways work, in fact you could fly final approach inverted and roll upright just prior to the flare.....but any passenger would not feel comfortable......

glendalegoon
30th Jan 2014, 00:49
really everyone, just try the crab and then straighten out just over the runway.

very few planes won't do this well.

Chuck Ellsworth
30th Jan 2014, 00:59
really everyone, just try the crab and then straighten out just over the runway.


Eureka!!... Finally someone agrees with me. :O:O


very few planes won't do this well.

Exactly, there may be some back yard home built that may not have sufficient rudder effectiveness ( Authority for you younger uns. :E ) to yaw the airplane enough to align with the runway, but I have never seen a certified aircraft that did not have sufficient rudder effectiveness to use the crab/flare method for any crosswind landings that can be performed using the side slip method.

IFMU
30th Jan 2014, 01:03
Chuck,
I learned to fly in a PA12. My instructor taught me to slip on final in a crosswind. As a student it was helpful for getting my head in the game. As a PPL I continued that technique, but I got lazier as I went. Lazy for me meant to crab rather than slip. I used to tow gliders, so I did a lot of landings. I never quite kicked it out at the last minute, used to do it 5' above the runway. But I find that as I am flying less lately that I will be in the slip sooner. It probably has something to do with comfort level. I have a good 34 years less than you and I am sure many thousands of hours less. Maybe my view would be the same if I had similar experience. I am not sure how you make the leap from slip on final to slip on cross country though.
Bryan

glendalegoon
30th Jan 2014, 01:07
Yes CHUCK, I do agree with you .

Though I don't know you at all.

I've flown small planes and big planes and they all work just fine. CRAB, near the runway kick the rudder and put the other wing down.

I could spend hundreds of words explaining it in detail. But I won't.

One plane I flew, it seemed better to crab, put the wing down and THEN kick rudder. But it was sort of odd.

I use the word: KICK as a slang term for proper pressure on the rudder pedal.

Try it folks, it works, its how the big boys do it.

But you must learn your ways, the plane you are flying's ways and learn when to do it.

One poor guy was my copilot about 29 years ago. It was a regional turboprop. He had just come off B52s (which has crosswind gear). He used the wing low method from about a three mile final.

I let him do it.

He was exhausted by the time we got to the runway.

I spoke to him kindly and showed him the next day how the crab and straighten out method worked.

He thanked me. No one at the little airline had shown him. YET HE HAD BEEN FLYING ONE OF THE BIGGEST PLANES OUT THERE . He could have taught me how to fly the B52.

Hang in there Chuck. Let me know if I can be of any help.

TO the pilot who asked when you make the transition, I made the big leap of faith sometime around 150 hours. Well over 30 years ago.

You have to have faith in your ability to straighten out near the end. I just made up my mind one day to get her done. Just believe for one moment you can handle a plane like robert a bob hoover. and you can!

Chuck Ellsworth
30th Jan 2014, 01:17
I am not sure how you make the leap from slip on final to slip on cross country though.

I was being facetious. :E

The PA12 was Pipers finest moment....just loved the thing.



Hang in there Chuck. Let me know if I can be of any help.

Thanks glendalegoon I appreciate your offer.......however I have been around Pprune for a long time and I have a skin thicker than a Florida Everglades alligator. :O

Also before I get myself into these back and forth discussions I am fairly certain that I can explain whatever position I take on the subject of airplane handling skills because that was how I earned my living in aviation.

And we don't want the forum to get boring.

Big Pistons Forever
30th Jan 2014, 01:26
Both methods work, however I have found most pilots find it easier to side slip particularly for the high wing Cessna's. For the PPL I teach students to crab down to about 300 feet AGL and then transition to a wing down sideslip. This gives them enough time to get things stabilized prior to the flare.

As they gain experience they can delay the transition to lower altitudes until they can carry the crab right into the flare rolling the into wind wing down while simultaneously using the rudder to align the aircraft with the runway. Done well this provides a very graceful smooth touchdown.

foxmoth
30th Jan 2014, 01:40
really everyone, just try the crab and then straighten out just over the runway.

very few planes won't do this well.

I could just as easily say "really everyone, just try the wing down, no need to worry about getting your timing wrong, you just keep it aligned with the runway:rolleyes:" and to me that is the best thing, at ALL times the aircraft is pointing straight down the runway. I can do both, but certainly on a Tailwheel prefer wing down - though for comfort or nervous pax may just transfer from crab to wing down in the flare as per BPFs post.

I note also that this is ACTUALLY what you are doing yourself and put the other wing down:cool: rather than a true crab approach where you just kick straight and keep wings level hoping you have timed it right, but even this to me is not as good for a newish pilot as setting up the wing down at say 300', because you are then making a lot of changes at very low level.

India Four Two
30th Jan 2014, 01:47
in fact you could fly final approach inverted and roll upright just prior to the flare

It can be done, but you need to be quick-thinking and very skilled!

Zlin wing Structural Failure Report - Neil Williams (http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/repeats/zlin_wing_failure.htm)

Extract from the report which is a must read:
A slow inverted flare was made and the aircraft was levelled as near to the ground as possible.
Low, low rollout
As the speed fell to 87 m.p.h., 140 k.p.h. a full aileron rollout was made to the right, and just a trace of negative G was maintained in order to hold the left wing in place. The aircraft responded well to the controls at this stage, but as it approached level flight the left wing started to fold up again. The nose was already down as a result of the slight negative G, and subsequent examination of the impact marks showed that the left wing tip touched the ground during the roll, although this could not be felt inside the aircraft. As the wing folded the aircraft hit the ground hard in a slight nose down, left bank attitude. I released the controls and concentrated on trying to roll into a ball, knees and feet pulled up and in, and head down protected by arms. I had a blurred impression of the world going past the windscreen sideways and then with a final jolt, everything stopped.

http://www.pcbdesign007.com/articlefiles/69913-zlin.gif

Desert185
30th Jan 2014, 04:52
One more vote for crab on final. Never liked the slip method in a light aircraft, and it just isn't done on a large aircraft...at least none that I have flown.

If making a coupled approach, the autopilot will crab, not slip (and glideslope is pitch, not power). Why manually fly it differently? To each his own, I guess, but slipping isn't what I teach or practice.

Andy_P
30th Jan 2014, 05:20
I am just learning to fly crosswind, we crab pretty much until just before the flare (or during flare), then side slip.

EDIT. Sometimes side slip earlier to lose speed though, but thats only when I cock up my final!

Cows getting bigger
30th Jan 2014, 05:43
Some aircraft lend themselves to the slip (Pitts springs to mind).

I also find that some students have difficulty getting everything straight in the latter stages of the flare with the crab method.

Personally I don't mind other than the fact that the wing down can feel a little uncomfortable for passengers.

kharmael
30th Jan 2014, 07:40
Why not just fly the cocked off down the slope, then at 2-300' adopt the wing down technique to land with the wheels and aircraft straight? You don't have to be wing down from the top of drop!? It provides more stability and control when landing on narrow strips in larger aircraft.

OP: With "tens of thousands of landings" I am sure that your sentence asking whether one flies x-country in the wing-down technique is facetious, at least I hope it is. :8

Johnm
30th Jan 2014, 07:51
Flying our Trinidad on ILS to minima is much easier crabbing, indeed the autopilot won't do anything else! However I tend to disconnect the autopilot and transition to wing down once I've passed DA, got the lights and I'm sure I'm going to land, especially in very gusty conditions. So I guess I do the last 50 to 100 ft in that configuration and feel more comfortable with the aircraft stable and the nose on the centre line.

Heston
30th Jan 2014, 07:54
I'll come out of the closet too :) I always fly crabbed approaches and I teach them too.


Yes there is a moment while you're kicking it straight that the wind can get under the wing if you don't use some aileron input, but overall I find its more intuitive and easier to understand what's going on for the student.


I learnt to fly in sailplanes - their big wings make the wing down approach a bit hairy close to the ground.


Is it a macho thing? "Real pilots use side slipping". Personally I just do what works for me.

Pace
30th Jan 2014, 07:54
I fly a straight winged citation so hardly a big aeroplane and have never known anyone slip anything but singles.

I feel that with the Crab you have a better feel of the winds which will change in direction and strength down the approach as well as with gusts.

Everyone above a light single crabs so why use a method which is so limited
all to their own :ok: what works for you.

pace

mad_jock
30th Jan 2014, 07:59
They don't actually PACe a lot of BAe 146 drivers used to do wing down and also other high wing commercial types.

I am firmly in the camp of I don't care as long as it works for the pilot airframe limitations outstanding.

Pace
30th Jan 2014, 08:06
MJ

I Bow to your superior knowledge :ok: I never knew that!

One point brought up is changing methods part way down. A stable approach is in my books very important. Changing methods would not be conducive to a stable approach so probably better to stick with one or the other?

Pace

Johnm
30th Jan 2014, 08:09
If you crab you have no choice but to change at some point as the nose has to line up with centre line before touch down otherwise a lot of excitement ensues :eek:

Pace
30th Jan 2014, 08:13
If you crab you have no choice but to change at some point as the nose has to line up with centre line before touch down otherwise a lot of excitement ensues

John

obviously :ok: unless you want to land sideways but nothing is static in the air we fly in or rarely :E
This is about pilot skills and judgement all the way to touchdown and beyond in the rollout to full stop! In strong crosswinds and turbulence, up and down draughts you are still using those skills.
What if an up draft lifts the aircraft on touchdown and you are back in the air in a strong crosswind do you slip again maybe a number of times :E

It would worry me if methods were used to substitute for strong handling skills

Pace

Shaggy Sheep Driver
30th Jan 2014, 08:37
I'm with Chuck. I, too, started to fly in gliders and whether that's influenced me, I don't know. I just have never seen the point of cross-controlling down final every time there's a x-wind element (so most times, then) when one can fly the aeroplane far more 'naturally' by simply taking up a heading which results in the correct track along final approach. Kicking off the drift and transitioning into wing-low for the last few feet does take skill and practice to get right, but seems a far more natural way to do it.

The exception is a deliberate slipping approach (sometimes a slipping final turn) done with full rudder with track held with aileron in, say, the L4 Cub (no flaps) to increase the ROD on final.

PPRuNe Towers
30th Jan 2014, 08:38
It's the one that suits you, makes sense, comes more naturally for whatever type of aircraft.

I do wonder whether how much is dogma - the way you were initially trained forming a strong bias towards one method over others.

Guidance is not a strong point in light aircraft POH's but the Boeing flight crew training manual discusses three main and approved methods - all three of which have been mentioned at some point in this thread. Some airlines give a standardised preference for Chuck's favoured method but that does look a bit weak during an autoland on, say, a 757 when Boeing's autopilot system happily puts you in a slip late in the approach.

Personally I use the seat belt method.

I get my belly on the center line and manipulate the controls in any way needed to ensure my paunch remains on that extended line.

The seat belt ensures the rest of the aircraft follows.

Wing down or crab - it works every time:ok:

Rob

FANS
30th Jan 2014, 11:13
At the typical 15knts x-wind, the crab will work fine.

I think the problem comes when people start landing their SEP in double that plus a gust factor whereby kicking it out can all too easily be mistimed.

glendalegoon
30th Jan 2014, 11:20
wondering:

what does the NONCRAB crowd do when the crosswind component aloft, on final, exceeds the control capability.

as an illustrative example. 50 knot direct crosswind at 2000' and you are on a long final? Wind at surface reported within max demonstrated x wind.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
30th Jan 2014, 11:55
Or to bring it full circle to the OP, if it's logical to fly a 5 mile approach 'wing down', why isn't it logical to fly x-country for hundreds of miles 'wing down' to make ones heading the same as one's track?

Of course it'd be most illogical to do that; uncomfortable and inefficient. So why would it suddenly become logical to do it on a long final approach?

Steve6443
30th Jan 2014, 12:04
(and glideslope is pitch, not power)

At the risk of starting another "Stick and Rudder" thread, I have to ask what you mean by "glideslope is pitch, not power"? Is this something peculiar to an Autopilot approach?

I'm not an IFR pilot but am fortunate to have a large under-utilised "international" airport in the vicinity who are open enough to have spam cans practising ILS approaches without the associated fees so have occasionally taken some foggles to practice an ILS approach - "just in case".

In my experience, it's exactly the opposite - glide slope is power, not pitch: I say this because I'll adjust the pitch (and trim) for my approach speed and then look to follow the glide slope using power..... I find if I'm too high on the slope and lower my pitch, I gain speed. If I'm low and increase my pitch, I lose speed.....

PA28181
30th Jan 2014, 12:17
Quote, ""glideslope is pitch, not power"? Is this something peculiar to an Autopilot approach?"

Isn't that for "Thrust Levers" & Turbine/jet acrft?

BroomstickPilot
30th Jan 2014, 12:22
Hi Chuck,

I was taught to fly in 1960 on an Auster J1 Autocrat (taildragger) by an ex WWII bomber pilot (Wellingtons). He insisted that I must be able to use both methods equally well, so that I would be in a position to choose which method I preferred to use for any given cross-wind landing depending on the aircraft concerned and the conditions.

At that time, it seemed logical to me that if I was flying a high wing aeroplane, then either method could be used, but if flying a low wing aeroplane, (especially one with a big wing span and a short under carriage relative to span) crabbing would be essential.

When I returned to flying in 2005 after a break of 40 years the only method I recall being taught was the wing down method. And once I returned to flying taildraggers this was combined with the (in my view) grossly inadequate two point landing; (OK for light to moderate crosswinds ONLY). I asked to revise wheeler landings, but this request was brushed off.

In the latter years before giving up in 2008, I tended to use the wing down method all the time, partly because I was flying a Texas Taildragger and considered it safe for that aircraft and partly because my flying was sufficiently infrequent to make me fear that lack of currency would result in my misjudging the crabbing method either by using too much/too little rudder or by applying it too high off the runway.

Regards,

BP.

Pace
30th Jan 2014, 12:39
"glideslope is pitch, not power"? Is this something peculiar to an Autopilot approach?"

PA28

Here we go again :ugh: Neither is right neither is wrong!!!

The less powerful the aircraft, the more draggy the aircraft, the less experienced the pilot, the more pitch for speed is important.
You have two engines on a SEP :ok: The conventional one operated by the throttle and the potential energy one in the airframe operated by the column!
both are sources of energy so think energy management not that rubbish of pitch for speed or power for speed.
Not rubbish where a student is taught to pitch to keep away from stalling in a high drag low powered aircraft but not the whole picture or truth.

Pace

glendalegoon
30th Jan 2014, 13:06
my memory of ''stick and rudder'' does offer that the author has a one sentence blurb somewhere about power/pitch etc. paraphrasing, this is not for the ultra precise instrument flying where minor changes are concerned.

while this is not an exact quote, the meaning should be obvious that one can use pitch for tiny changes, but in the end, if you don't have enough power, you cannot pitch into anything but a stall

Pace
30th Jan 2014, 13:37
Glenda

In a glider on a still no lift day there is no engine other than the one available in the potential energy available in the airframe ! You can only pitch for that energy! If you do not pitch you WILL Stall :{
Add an engine to that glider and you now have two energy sources!
Tap into one, the other. Or both as part of your energy management

Pace

foxmoth
30th Jan 2014, 13:47
What if an up draft lifts the aircraft on touchdown and you are back in the air in a strong crosswind do you slip again maybe a number of times
That shows you do not understand the method - you KEEP the wing down until the other wheel settles of its own accord, if you get the updraft you have already got the drift compensated for - with crab, if an updraft lifts the aircraft you are then drifting sideways and either into an uncomfortable landing that does the aircraft no good or (preferably), a go around!:rolleyes:

Pace
30th Jan 2014, 13:54
Foxmouth

I disagree !!! You are presuming a constant which is rarely the case in strong crosswinds with gusts up draughts or down draughts !
You will have to play both to suit not just hold.the slip you had on the first touch
Also consider with crossed controls you will be carrying more drag than an aircraft in a crab! Do you really want that in strong winds?

Pace

thing
30th Jan 2014, 14:28
I'm a 'crabber' but I flew gliders for decades before going to the dark side. It's just natural for me to crab the approach. Having said that one of my club pals poles 757's as the day job and he uses wing down. Says you know if you have enough control authority that way. Never tried it other than slipping on finals to loose a bit of height. As an aside, how many times have you been in a howling xwind at 200' and by the time you are flaring it's down to a gentle breeze? I've sat beside wing down pilots on xwind approaches and it seems like a whole lot of work to me. But hey, whatever you're comfortable with.

Engine/yoke for speed on instrument approaches: an engine man myself, find it more natural to keep on the glideslope with the throttle. The aircraft is trimmed out and a trickle of extra or less power is much easier to control than chasing the needles with the yoke. IMO of course. If you're having to make power adjustments of more than 100 rpm then you haven't set yourself up properly in the first place.

scotbill
30th Jan 2014, 14:32
One more vote for crab on final. Never liked the slip method in a light aircraft, and it just isn't done on a large aircraft...at least none that I have flown.You don't tell us which they were but you might want to speculate on why the Boeing 757/67 autopilot gives a superb demonstration of a controlled slip approach (note - very little wing down with opposite rudder applied). Having been trained in the slip procedure on DC3s in winds of up to 50k early in my career I found it worked on all aeroplanes from the Tiger Moth up to said B767.

There are several drawbacks to the "Kick off Drift" school.
a) it requires a measure of fine judgement at the last minute - which has wrecked the confidence of many a budding aviator.
b) get it wrong - or forget to apply into wind aileron on a swept wing jet - and you can be left in a highly vulnerable situation as many dramatic videos testify.
c) have you ever sat in Row 40 while someone applies an agricultural amount of boot at the last minute?

The Boeing autopilot initiates its slip from about 500' and I believe has been demonstrated up to 35k or so across. The human pilot is better advised to leave the procedure to about 100' by which time the wind is more representative of that on the runway. It is vital that the into-wind aileron is maintained into the landing roll to ensure runway adhesion and lift dump deployment.

Crabbing into the flare may work for little aeroplanes in light Xwinds but have watched it go wrong too often. There is no doubt in my mind that slip in the last couple of hundred feet leads to a more consistent and polished outcome.

thing
30th Jan 2014, 14:44
Crabbing into the flare may work for little aeroplanes in light Xwinds but have watched it go wrong too often. There is no doubt in my mind that slip in the last couple of hundred feet leads to a more consistent and polished outcome. For you...:). I've flown crabbed approaches for the last 30 years in xwinds that have been very naughty at times and never had any problems at all. I sit in awe at the judgment required to do a slip approach, to me a crab approach is a no brainer, I do them without any conscious thought.

There's no right or wrong way, just the way that you prefer. The end outcome needs to be a safe landing, if you are making safe xwind landings consistently then everyone is a winner.

scotbill
30th Jan 2014, 14:56
There's no right or wrong way, just the way that you prefer.So you have mastered the fine judgement required. You do not say whether you are involved in training - or indeed what type you fly.
In my experience the slip technique is much more easily mastered than the other and is particularly suited to swept wing aircraft - although effective in all.

foxmoth
30th Jan 2014, 14:59
Foxmouth

I disagree !!! You are presuming a constant which is rarely the case in strong crosswinds with gusts up draughts or down draughts !

Again, shows lack of understanding of method, one of the beauties of wing down is that it is easy to compensate for changing conditions, you just vary the amount of wing down - how do you do that with crab? You end up either without enough crab on or within too much, either way you end up going sideways. As far as the extra drag goes, very minimal, certainly not noticeable on most aircraft. Also, if you get my name right you might realise what type of aircraft I have experience of, NOT ones to treat a crosswind lightly in!
I will say I have flown many aircraft that I have been told "very dodgy in a crosswind" (e.g. Auster/ Tiger Moth/Leopard Moth), never had a problem myself using wing down, speaking after to the pilots that told me this, most used crab!:rolleyes:

Chuck Ellsworth
30th Jan 2014, 15:23
Good morning gang....

Well, well this has turned out real well, three pages and everyone still friendly and no one has gone bonkers.

So it can be seen that thoughtful discussion about different methods of aircraft handling can be educational as we have going here.

The operative description is " Aircraft handling " which involves a broad spectrum of attitudes and manipulation of controls to produce a desired attitude.

I chose this subject because it is one which I knew every pilot here would have not only a preference for but a reason for their preference.

As we can gather from how this discussion is going either method of approach to landing will work, therefore the only difference is which method is best.......

With a bit of reflection on the subject we must come to the conclusion that generally speaking at some point in the approach, landing in a strong cross wind crossed controls will be needed.

For me I try and visualize why I don't use the side slip method of maintaining track on a cross country and from that determination I plan my use of the flight controls during my landing approach.

Anyhow ...great job gang everyone is polite and thoughtful.

I was going to start a new discussion on how to judge height height above the runway for the flare....but decided to do this subject....


...and someone here might be able to retrieve my ideas on the judging height above the runway from some years ago.

I am getting old now but I do still get pleasure from sharing the lessons I learned during my career as a pilot and should do so before I become a complete mindless idiot.

thing
30th Jan 2014, 15:29
So you have mastered the fine judgement required. You do not say whether you are involved in training - or indeed what type you fly.
In my experience the slip technique is much more easily mastered than the other and is particularly suited to swept wing aircraft - although effective in all. Not involved in any training and fly spamcans (this is the GA forum after all...:)). I'm just a common or garden club pilot. I dare say the majority of posters here are in the same category as me and do not fly exotica, much as I /we would probably like to.

As I say, one of my flying buddies flies Boeings and he swears by the slip method. It works for him. Crab works for me, although I'm easily swayed if bought beer.

As Chuck says, the last bit of a crab landing is a slip landing anyway, so what's the difference? I just hold off the slip longer than you do.

Pace
30th Jan 2014, 15:29
Foxbat

Really sorry with the typo error totally unintentional and no malice whatsoever intended :uhoh:

Pace NB I fully understand the principal but ask you if that is the case why it is not the predominant method used in GA or professional flying?
There is more than minimal extra drag cross control the problem being the upset and loss of control if you need to dump it quickly.
I have used the crab method in 40kts 90 degree winds into Denham in a twin (that was the absolute limit)

Pace

thing
30th Jan 2014, 15:36
I have used the crab method in 40kts 90 degree winds into Denham in a twin (that was the absolute limit)I feel your examples will fall on deaf ears...:)

Again, shows lack of understanding of method, one of the beauties of wing down is that it is easy to compensate for changing conditions, you just vary the amount of wing down - how do you do that with crab?

Er...vary the amount of crab? Out of interest how would you land a 25m span glider in a strong xwind? Genuine question.

Desert185
30th Jan 2014, 16:10
Steve6443

Quote:
(and glideslope is pitch, not power)
At the risk of starting another "Stick and Rudder" thread, I have to ask what you mean by "glideslope is pitch, not power"? Is this something peculiar to an Autopilot approach?

I'm not an IFR pilot but am fortunate to have a large under-utilised "international" airport in the vicinity who are open enough to have spam cans practising ILS approaches without the associated fees so have occasionally taken some foggles to practice an ILS approach - "just in case".

In my experience, it's exactly the opposite - glide slope is power, not pitch: I say this because I'll adjust the pitch (and trim) for my approach speed and then look to follow the glide slope using power..... I find if I'm too high on the slope and lower my pitch, I gain speed. If I'm low and increase my pitch, I lose speed.....


The reality is that if you change pitch, you are going to have to change power to keep the equation in balance. Since autopilots control glodeslope with pitch when coupled in approach mode, it is obviously possible for the human to do the same. It is also the recommended procedure when flying large airplanes. If autothrottle equipped, power controls airspeed.

With one exception, I use the same technique in my 185 or in the jets I fly. The one circumstance where I use power to control rate of descent is when I am slow ~1.1 or 1.2 Vso on an approach to a short strip in the 185. Power actually helps control both descent and airspeed in that circumstance, because if the tendency is to go slow, power is necessary and if the rate of descent needs adjustment, power needs an adjustment. In order for this to work, one has to be slow. I also adjust my approach speed according to my weight for a more accurate reference to actual Vso. My empty weight is 1840 compared to a 3525 GW, so adjusting approach speed can make a difference in the rollout distance.

Chuck Ellsworth
30th Jan 2014, 16:22
I have used the crab method in 40kts 90 degree winds into Denham in a twin (that was the absolute limit)


We never know what conditions may face us some day, therefore we must strive to learn to handle an airplane to the limits the airplane can be operated.

The above can and will present its self if you fly long enough.

Many years ago I was faced with an approach and landing with a cross wind of 90 degrees at fifty knots with ground visibility of zero zero in blowing snow in a DC3. The landing was successful.


I feel your examples will fall on deaf ears...

True.

But there will always be those who can hear. :ok:

Mariner9
30th Jan 2014, 16:26
I use crab by default (SEP, tricycle gear) but combine it with wing down if the crab angle is getting silly due to a large xwind component.

Was never taught to do so (nor was ever taught wing down in isolation) - its just something that has evolved in my flying over the years.

Desert185
30th Jan 2014, 16:26
Scotbill:

The 767 is fairly advanced. The 727, CE-500, Westwind 2, C-130, DC-8, Twin Otter and the Classic 747's (10 kt autoland XW limit, BTW) that I have flown didn't/don't slip on final when coupled. 767 slip is not very dramatic either, as some crab is used in combination.

Kicking it out in the flare is a fact of life with most airplanes. A crab in an approach to a gusty mountain airport makes for a much more controllable and comfortable approach compared to attempting the same with a slip. I think you'll find that most high density altitude, spam can, mountain pilots will agree with my assessment.

Chuck Ellsworth
30th Jan 2014, 16:37
Another thought.....

If we use the side slip during the final approach segment of the approach and landing and the X/wind is strong we are forced to use significant slip to track the landing path......and thus more power will be needed to maintain your glide path...

....so by slipping to early you have destabilized your approach.

packo1848
30th Jan 2014, 17:02
I was taught the crab method during my PPL, then post PPL I flew with a family member (75 skipper and GA Instructor) who can't advocate the cross-control method strongly enough. Notice I avoided the use of the words side-slip or wing-down; when I thought of the approach in these terms I found it very difficult to master and found myself hugely over controlling the aircraft both with rudder and aileron, then the approach became extremely uncomfortable!

The key to making the approach comfortable I found was a fine balance of sufficient rudder and aileron combination, which except for in very strong winds led to approaches with wings level (or very nearly so) and the nose pointing directly down the centre-line. A very comfortable position to be in if you ask me.

Feeding cross-controls in gradually throughout the final approach I find works best for me and gives me a great feel for how much control is going to be required and keeps the aircraft stabilised on the centreline of the runway from turning final to touching down and the subsequent roll-out. I find it also helps negate any nasty surprises from low-level windsheer as the control inputs required to correct it are so much smaller.

Just my humble opinion as a relatively low hour pilot.

echobeach
30th Jan 2014, 19:46
I was most pleased to see a post again from Chuck as I have both enjoyed reading his contributions and posts over the years.
To a hobby pilot, it's always seems interesting that this still a subject of much debate. In training some years ago, I was taught both methods.
In the cirrus I now fly, the poh is clear at least in advising pilots to avoid 'prolonged slips ' on final approach.
I have to admit I find crabbing in most comfortable but I start to straight with rudder and get into wing aileron down just a bit before I enter the flare. This means that I have everything just beginning to move in the right directions and I continue this into flare and hold off. I found that especially in strong crosswinds it made my landings smoother.

I think that the slip is easier when less experienced, as the final approach picture looks more familiar in the last 300 feet. At least it did for me.

I am reading stick and rudder at the moment.

sapco2
30th Jan 2014, 20:09
Making the correction before the flare starts is good echobeach!

Its trying to compensate for drift during the flare where it tends to go horribly wrong. There is loads of you-tube footage where crabbed approaches have gone horribly wrong but none that I have ever seen from pilots who make a habit of aligning the nose of the aircraft down the centreline prior to touchdown!

glendalegoon
30th Jan 2014, 20:30
sapco

you don't see many you tube videos of the slip method because usually you tube videos are in extreme conditions. extreme usually requires the crab.

use what you feel safest with. after all, in a one pilot plane you are the boss.

Armchairflyer
30th Jan 2014, 20:38
As I don't feel competent enough to comfortably handle a crosswind landing with just one of the two techniques, I tend to use a mixture (in the rare occurrences where the need arises for me). Slightly wing-down-cross-control but mostly crab in the final approach which ideally changes to more wing-down-cross-control and no crab during the flare and touchdown. Granted, not a perfect landing if I fail to complete the abovementioned transition before the airplane completes its transition from airborne to aardvark, but it has never come to an appreciable gear abuse let alone a runway excursion.

Cross-controlling all the way just feels awkward for me and doesn't suit my laziness. In addition, even with my humble experience I can second the assertion in one aviation book I've read: the wind mostly changes near the surface anyway, therefore even with the cross-control method one has to juggle with rudder and ailerons in the flare to get it right, so why labor earlier than necessary?

sapco2
30th Jan 2014, 20:38
Actually no they don't glendalegoon, you'll be in total control all the way if you fly the cross control technique correctly. Some folk here are describing it at as side slip manoeuvre but it's not as extreme as that. It works very nicely, even in extreme conditions, and this is the reason you don't see the technique going wrong!

glendalegoon
30th Jan 2014, 20:43
sapco

no one at the airline I fly for does it your way.

Piper.Classique
30th Jan 2014, 20:53
Glendalegoon, you could be construed a being just a tad patronising in your posts here. There are plenty of pilots in this forum who have more hands on time than most airline pilots. Note I say hands on......
So, I for one would appreciate a less didactic approach to what is an interesting discussion. Thank you for listening.

Oh, and I am capable of doing a crab approach. I prefer wing down. My choice.

robin
30th Jan 2014, 21:13
Right or wrong I've been using the wing-down approach on my Jodel for a long time now.

Jodels, I am informed, have an undercarriage that can't take much of a sideload and crabbing is riskier than wind-down

Happy to be corrected on this, but after all these years, my preference is clear

Pace
30th Jan 2014, 21:43
Jodels, I am informed, have an undercarriage that can't take much of a side load and crabbing is riskier than wind-down

Robin

Not wanting to be rude or personal but what has the side loading of a model got to do with the crab approach ?
Unless you are saying that the pilot does not have the skills to land straight off a crab which would side load the aircraft.
In that case its a sad reflection of basic pilot skills not the aircraft.
are we churning out aircraft drivers rather than pilots nowadays ?

Pace

IFMU
30th Jan 2014, 21:48
There is nothing more satisfying than a nicely executed one wheel touchdown in a strong crosswind. Then again, the takeoff is harder to get the exact amount of wing down to counter the crosswind as wheel friction can be a factor prior to liftoff. To rotate perfectly up on one wheel, then to lift off and set the right crab for departure all in one fluid moment is fun too. I am all for crabbing on departure.
Bryan

Chuck Ellsworth
30th Jan 2014, 21:57
Actually no they don't glendalegoon, you'll be in total control all the way if you fly the cross control technique correctly. Some folk here are describing it at as side slip manoeuvre but it's not as extreme as that.

I would like to elaborate on the above by sapco2, his use of words can only be correct you are approaching with crossed controls on final with no crosswind or straight into wind.....then it would be described as a forward slip, if there is a cross wind and you use crossed controls to maintain the center line it is side slipping....period.

Please don't feel like I am being to anal about this Sapco2, I am sort of what could be described as a purist when it comes to the art of flying and that is probably because of the environments in which I learned to fly.


Sooooo for those of you who have not read my ideas on how to fly before, here is what made me so picky about airplane handling skills....

......seven years aerial application ( both fixed and rotary wing. ) ......eight years flying DC3's in Canada's north and high Arctic, mostly off airports........fifteen years as Captain on heavy water scoopers fire bombing.....and at the end of my career eight years flying in the air show circuit in Europe.

So as one can see I probably have been programmed to be extra demanding in how to fly an aircraft.

There now I hope ya'all cut me some slack for being so anal. :ok::E:ok:

robin
30th Jan 2014, 21:59
Pace

I hear what you say. I think it is true that some super skygods are consistently good at landing whatever option they choose. Some are less good.

I learnt from an instructor with a lot of Jodel time, so his is the way I've chosen.

Chuck Ellsworth
30th Jan 2014, 22:04
are we churning out aircraft drivers rather than pilots nowadays ?

Pace

Yup...that is exactly what has happened and you can thank Cessna for what we see today because this started it.


http://i.imgur.com/Zr6AT8s.jpg

glendalegoon
30th Jan 2014, 22:06
piper classique:

the internet allows only you to perceive how you perceive a post. a statement of fact is only patronizing to those who think they are patronized.

chuck is right, there is a difference between a forward slip and a side slip.

Pace
30th Jan 2014, 22:09
Robin

You do what you are most comfortable with :ok: For me the proof of the pudding is in the eating and the vast majority of pilots from PPLs to Professional crab.
Unless its some new undiscovered technique which it is not then the vast majority would use that technique rather than crabbing and I am afraid they do not for obvious reasons to me.

Pace

Miserlou
30th Jan 2014, 22:19
Nice one Chuck!

I reckon the wing down technique is for those who can't do it properly.
Probably because their instructors couldn't either.

Drivers, pilots, artists. If you don't even know the difference, you're a driver.

3 Point
30th Jan 2014, 22:50
As a driver, pilot and artist I'd say that both techniques have their merits and a fully rounded pilot should be equally capable of using either technique as circumstances dictate.

I'm always nervous of any one in aviation who insights that only one technique is correct and appropriate for all circumstances - not so!

Happy landings

3 Point

BBK
30th Jan 2014, 23:18
3 point

I agree entirely! I've taught both, flown both. Interesting but pointless discussion - in my humble opinion.

Wing down. Works very well in high wing types. Also, bit off thread but it's what the autopilot does on the 744 on an autoland in a crosswind.

Crabbing works well but I used to tell my students it's like telling a joke. It's all about........timing. :E

Edited to add. The Jumbo uses BOTH. fancy that!

Big Pistons Forever
30th Jan 2014, 23:38
Like many things in flying there is more than one "right" way to do many manoeuvres.

Like most pilots my definition of the right way to do pretty much everything has evolved over my flying career. I have improved on things that worked for me when I was new to flying as I gained the experience to finesse my flying. Conversely things I had no problem doing when I was younger are now items I no longer want to do.

Saying you are a lesser pilot because you only land with the wing down method IMO speaks more about ego driven posturing than any real desire to have a conversation and I have never met a pilot who had nothing left to learn.

The bottom line from my POV is it doesn't matter what method you use, the important thing is to do it well. That means precise control of the airspeed, flight path and line up on the final approach. This only comes from practice and a genuine desire to strive to be better.

sapco2
31st Jan 2014, 00:17
There is no 'Chuck method', likewise there is no 'my method'. Both are recognised procedures taught by our predecessors. Fly the one that suits you best.

I do however believe there is merit in exploring both techniques. I am also aware there are pilots who can handle drift whilst crabbing in the flare. Conversely though, there are many bad examples, recorded on video where jet and light aircraft pilots have fouled up rather badly using that very technique.

I am an open minded sort of bloke, so happy to be proven wrong. However the reason I remain such a strong advocator of the cross control technique is because I have YET to witness the technique go wrong.

Happy landings everyone!

Chuck Ellsworth
31st Jan 2014, 00:31
O.K. gang this was a good discussion for quite a while but I see we are back to insults again.

So I'm out of this because nowhere have I said side slipping is not a useful method of correcting for drift during an approach and landing.

I did say that I personally do not use a side slip way out on the final approach because for me it serves no useful purpose.

To bad these conversations have to degenerate into insults to make a point.

But hey....I have another idea....those of you who feel some of us are just ego driven with no interest in constructive conversations are free to take this thread and make it more professional.

I left Avcanada because most every thread ends up with bitter comments regardless of the original intent of the person who started the thread.

Maybe the internet with its comfort zone of anonymity is not the place for me because I have this flaw of not being afraid to communicate using my real name.

foxmoth
31st Jan 2014, 00:43
Er...vary the amount of crab? Out of interest how would you land a 25m span glider in a strong xwind? Genuine question.


Yes you can vary the amount of crab - personally I have always found that doing this is a LOT less instinctive and slower than varying the wing down and leaves a low hour pilot behind the aircraft.
If you read some of my other posts on this subject (possibly another thread), you will see I have always pointed out that you use correct technique for the aircraft you are flying so yes, I would use more crab for the glider, though most gliders the wings have a fair amount of dihedral with the wings mid level so not quite the problem you seem to imply - probably less so than say a Pa28!

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
31st Jan 2014, 01:27
I've always been tempted to side slip to centreline on microlights; I did with gliders.

I've stayed with the heavy A/C crab approach nonetheless. A couple of months back, I ballooned, hesitated and stalled. I wonder if my aeroplane would have survived a side slip stall?

BEagle
31st Jan 2014, 07:04
I've used the 'crab' technique in everything I've ever flown, from Cessna 150, Chipmunk and PA-28, for example, to Buccaneer, F-4, Vulcan and VC10.

One very important point is that the approach speed must not be excessive if the aircraft is to behave as the designers intended in the flare. Use POH values, do not add an extra 5 knots for the wife and kids and all will be fine.

Otherwise, as you align the aircraft with the runway centreline during the flare, it will float and drift off downwind, which is extremely difficult to correct neatly.

There is NO 'kicking' in the flare - except afterwards by the instructor to the student if he used excessive rudder inputs! One flies with the correct drift applied to track the runway centreline, then yaws the aircraft to align it with the runway at the same rate that the flare is initiated, maintaining wings level as necessary with aileron. The VC10 had pretty heavy controls (requiring both hands on the yoke and power settings called for the flight engineer to set) and a powerful rudder system, it also had a significantly swept wing which would cause excessive roll if yawed too abruptly. Although the aircraft had a 28 kt dry crosswind limit, I once landed on the limit at RAF Mount Pleasant and found it quite demanding, but straightforward enough. I asked for the wind readout after landing and ATC advised that it had been well over 35 kt directly across the RW.....:hmm:

I've had a few demonstrations of the 'wing down' technique in light aeroplanes and found it thoroughly unnatural and unnecessary. Of course those who maintain excessive IAS during the approach and then fly one wheel onto the ground, waiting for the speed to decrease before levelling the wings, can do so if they feel so inclined - but why? A wings-level balanced approach tracking the centreline, followed by a smoothly controlled 'de-crab' and flare works every time if the correct approach speed is used.

thing
31st Jan 2014, 07:04
Yes you can vary the amount of crab - personally I have always found that doing this is a LOT less instinctive and slower than varying the wing down and leaves a low hour pilot behind the aircraft.

But again it's a lot less instinctive to you because the wing down is what you are used to and comfortable with. I don't even have to think about a crabbed approach it's so ingrained, everything is automatic and I've never landed with a side load on the u/c.

Out of interest though I'm taking up a very kind offer from an infinitely more experienced airman than me to show me the slip approach and make up my own mind as to the merits of both methods.

Johnm
31st Jan 2014, 07:48
I am an unashamed aircraft driver, as far as I'm concerned an aeroplane is a car with wings. I use whatever technique works and mostly I'm happier to transition to wing down after I switch off the autopilot on the ILS at about 150ft :E

Flyingmac
31st Jan 2014, 08:56
Robin. I'd be happy to let you land my Jodel in a crosswind.

Pace. Sorry mate. Nothing personal.:)

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 09:41
FlyingMac

Don't worry :ok: One of my most memorable flights in a Jodel was in one without wheels :E
it was on Skis on a mountain course out of Meribel in the french Alps! Amazing

Look I am not bothered what technique anyone wants to use as with women whatever lights your fire :E

Dear John classifies himself as an aeroplane driver not a pilot :E autopilot everywhere! If John buys a cirrus he will not even have to land, just pull the chute (sorry john only in jest) ;)

if the slip was soooo good it would be the majority method used across the board in aviation! sorry but it is far from the most used method which must say something especially as the stalwarts of the slip claim it is easier and safer :ugh:

My concern is anyone using a system to make up for lack of basic handling skills! If a pilot is competent in both methods and chooses the slip then fine! As I said whatever lights your fire.

We should all be confident near the ground in any winds within reason and instinctively put in the right control movements to play the aircraft like a violin.
If we use methods to cover up holes in our abilities that would worry me!

Maybe we are asking the wrong question regarding the slip? maybe that question should be that if it is better and safer why it is not the majority method of use in aviation bottom to top?

Pace

Miserlou
31st Jan 2014, 10:03
Tehe.
I second that Pace.

Except for those types which are designed to be actually landed with crab angle, the truth is that both methods are employed, the crab transitioning to the wing down before touchdown. The debate is at what point one transitions.

What Chuck was getting at was why some people would WANT to transition as early as it seems many do. This is also my suspicion, as Pace writes above, that this 'forward slip' is employed to cover up for lack of ability.

I like to use the wing down method too. But then it is an approach angle technique.

I think it is a shame that instruction does not include flying level along the runway at 10' or so, varying the amount of bank and rudder to see and feel the effects. That way the mystery and pressure of crosswind landings would be reduced and a higher level of confidence gained rather than the very short learning opportunity which exists because of the impending touchdown.
It would also demonstrate that the decision time for a baulked landing can be extended. Understand correctly. If you can't fly straight along the runway with full rudder, then the crosswind is exceeding the aircaft's actual limits, if you get my drift. Pun intended.

phiggsbroadband
31st Jan 2014, 10:44
There is a third method that no-one has mentioned yet, and that is the slight application of rudder on final, reducing the crab by about a half, then a full push on that pedal when landing.


As I find the use of rudder is counter-intuitive... i.e. you push forward on the left pedal, and the left wing goes backward. ( And perhaps because I have chosen the wrong pedal at the wrong time.) I like to have my correct foot pushing slightly on the correct pedal before the full effort is required, that way I don't use the incorrect input.


Some of this I learnt when flying gliders... For a winch take-off, whilst hooking up the cable, you look at the wind-sock and push the pedal which the wind-sock (or yaw string) is pointing to. This ensures that your run down the runway is wind corrected before the tail gets blown around.

Flyingmac
31st Jan 2014, 10:58
Maybe we are asking the wrong question regarding the slip? maybe that
question should be that if it is better and safer why it is not the majority
method of use in aviation bottom to top?



Well, in my case I don't have to worry about scraping a jet engine cowling down the runway.

Private jet
31st Jan 2014, 11:01
plus one for the crabbing technique, when i started 25 years ago my instructor said just do what was easier for me and what i felt comfortable with. Never mastered "wing down", it always felt very un-natural to me. With a bit of practice using the rudder to "kick off the drift" during the flare works fine every time and this method has the advantage that you dont need to do anything different when you get on to the big fast equipment. Its a bit risky to do wing down X-wind correction on a big aircraft with big engines under the wings...

3 Point
31st Jan 2014, 13:24
This is absolutely not an "either or" discussion and anyone who says they "never" use one of these techniques is not deploying a full range of piloting skills. Each method has its advantages and its disadvantages and so one should be equally capable to use either and should then deploy the most appropriate in any particular situation.

Beagle; I agree with most of what you say and, of course if you fly the published speed the aeroplane will behave as intended in the flare and will sit down nicely just as you align it with the landing direction. But, and it's a big but; what happens on a gusty windy sort of day? Suppose you have flared at the correct speed, aligned your low wing loading taildragger with the landing direction when along comes a gust increasing your airspeed by 5 to 10 knots? what then?

You have three options ...

1 Let the aeroplane land anyway - not recommended unless you want to demonstrate a ground loop!
2. Go around
3. Roll on some into wind bank to keep the aeroplane tracking down the centreline, use opposite rudder to keep the nose aligned with the landing direction. In other words transition to the "wing down" method!

If you don't have the skills and the confidence to adapt your only safe option is to go around and hope for kinder winds on your next landing attempt.

Private Jet; A crabbed approach and then a transition to wing down in the flare is exactly what the Airbus autoland mode does and it has pretty big engines under the wings! You can't make blanket statements about what techniques may or may not be appropriate to whole groups of aircraft; types are all different and frequently demand different techniques.

Final example. This morning I flew in a light aeroplane with significant dihedral, a low wing loading and a soft, narrow track landing gear. Crosswind was 15Kt and the wind was pretty gusty (+/- 15mph on finals). I flew the approach using the crab technique down to the flare then transitioned to wing down as the speed reduced to the appropriate number for landing. Due to the gusty headwind it was impossible to anticipate the speed reduction with sufficient accuracy to judge when to straighten and let the aeroplane land on both mainwheels together. Only option is to transition to wing down and wait for the upwind wheel to land followed by the other then the nose.

There are advantages of either technique and a fully rounded pilot is skilled and confident with either, choosing the most appropriate one in the prevailing circumstances.

Happy landings

3 Point

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 13:46
3 point with all due respect I do not think this thread was about handling in the flare close to the ground and techniques to use near the ground to deal with gusts, up and down draughts and strong crosswinds.

Yes! My point exactly that a pilot should be confident near the ground in any wind conditions within reason and be able to play that aircraft like a violin.
but that has little to do with a cross control approach and landing and smacks of changing the goal post in this discussion.:E

Due to the gusty headwind it was impossible to anticipate the speed reduction with sufficient accuracy to judge when to straighten and let the aeroplane land on both mainwheels together. Only option is to transition to wing down and wait for the upwind wheel to land followed by the other then the nose.

THAT IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION in which case what have i been doing for the past 28 years in all manner of ****e? also I would reverse your statement!
I would also stress that in some wind the conditions the last thing you want is to be holding off but would be better " flying it on" which you should know about looking at your profile? especially in jets where you want to be on the numbers and not floating halfway down the runway or off the side or off the end of the runway because you do not have enough distance to stop:ok:


Pace

3 Point
31st Jan 2014, 14:18
Hi Pace,

OK, agree that the thread started off considering the earlier part of the approach and that it may be less appropriate to use wing down too early. The discussion has however developed to include comments on how to handle the flare and touchdown in all sorts of aircraft.

The quote you picked out from my remarks is valid in the context I was using although I will concede that it would have been more complete if I had said that

"The only option, other than going around, was..."

Once again I would say that one can not generalise about a particular technique and claim that it is the best choice (or even a valid option) for all circumstances. What you have been doing for the past 28 years I hope, is choosing the best option from a range of available techniques to optimise the outcome of many dynamic and different situations. Sometimes varying those choices in response to unexpected changes outside your immediate control.

Your remark about playing a violin is exactly what I am getting at so I know you understand what I mean.

If you know that the wind conditions or perhaps your lack or familiarity with the type you are flying, will make it difficult to anticipate the exact moment to straighten the crab before touchdown, might it not be wise to transition to the wing down technique at 100 feet rather than being forced to do so in the flare? As I say, different techniques for different circumstances!

3 Point

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 14:22
3 point I know you know what you are talking about too :ok:sometimes its this faceless text ;)

Pace

Chuck Ellsworth
31st Jan 2014, 14:49
Good morning fellow Ppruners, I see the conversation has become polite again and the insulting comments have disappeared, maybe it is a time zone thing and we are back in a culture that can show some respect for others?

Anyhow this poster has correctly identified the intent of my reason for this discussion.





What Chuck was getting at was why some people would WANT to transition as early as it seems many do. This is also my suspicion, as Pace writes above, that this 'forward slip' is employed to cover up for lack of ability.

For instance why would you want to increase your workload coming up on what could be a landing that may require increased workload?

Is it runway anticipation?


This conversation is meant to be about control input during the final approach.

The flare and landing is a whole different subject.

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 15:11
Chuck

Yes I think maybe a thread on different types of landing techniques and methods for dealing with winds in the flare might be useful :ok: and will probably be equally entertaining ;) but be prepared to be called a Sky God :ugh: don't think any exist

Pace

Chuck Ellsworth
31st Jan 2014, 15:30
Yes I think maybe a thread on different types of landing techniques and methods for dealing with winds in the flare might be useful and will probably be equally entertaining

No doubt that it would. :O

Some years ago I wrote a in depth explanation of how to land, it has to be in the arcives somewhere.....if we could find it it would save me a lot of time re-writing it.

Miserlou
31st Jan 2014, 15:46
I seem to remember a King video filmed from the touchdown end of a runway where the aircraft flies level along the runway moves from side to side with the use of rudder and ailerons.

I wondered why this exercise was not included in the sillytrainingbus.

In fact, I used to demonstrate this on the ATR when cleared a long landing. Just a slight increase of power at 20' and it would fly level for ages until the speed decayed and this provided a slow motion flare and touchdown. Unsurprisingly, this technique was easier than a normal landing.
The ATR was great for crosswinds with its 45kt take-off and 38kt landing demonstrated components.

On that sideline, one can often see and feel commercial aircraft 'feeling' for the ground with one wing down and a little opposite rudder.
The reason being that the sudeen drag of all the main wheels touching down at the same time can feel like a firmer arrival than it actually was.

PS. Chuck. How to land? Isn't landing as simple as flying level with the ground with the power off until the aircraft won't? Most places require one to fly in a straight line too.

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 16:14
PS. Chuck. How to land? Isn't landing as simple as flying level with the ground with the power off until the aircraft won't? Most places require one to fly in a straight line too.

Not Chuck but just to expand the discussion :E Landing is not as closely associated to stall as imagined. Yes stall will give the slowest speed and hence the shortest landing distance but there the connection almost stops.

A Jet Jockey friend of mine landed a Citation at Edinburgh at a radar estimated speed of 200 KTS stopped on the runway with I believe the tyres intact although way over their limiting speeds. He had perceived handling problems. A typical VREF for that aircraft is 105-110 KTS. So more than double the normal touchdown speed.
I am obviously not suggesting that anyone emulates that or any way near that but use that example to disassociate stall and landing in pilots minds

Landing has little to do with stall or a VREF of 1.3 times the stall in a given configuration but obviously has when stopping to the book values.

Be precise enough and you could land at higher speeds. the determining factor here is the distance ratio between the nose wheel and mains. The bigger the distance between the nose and mains and the more likely you are to keep the nose from touching at higher speed. short coupled the harder a higher speed is possible.

Just threw that snippet in the pot as another consideration point :E and more a consideration of why you can fly it on rather than thinking you have to be hanging there in strong winds trying to land at the stall.

Pace

thing
31st Jan 2014, 16:16
How to land? Isn't landing as simple as flying level with the ground with the power off until the aircraft won't? You know I kind of go along with that. While I'm an avid reader of all the experience on here I do think that sometimes we overcomplicate issues. Flying isn't hard, landing in a crosswind isn't hard, nothing about flying is hard otherwise there would be an awful lot of dead pilots and it would no doubt have been banned by now. Plus a dullard like me wouldn't be able to do it. You wouldn't get a multipage thread on how to park a car (maybe you would I don't know).

Chuck Ellsworth
31st Jan 2014, 16:27
PS. Chuck. How to land? Isn't landing as simple as flying level with the ground with the power off until the aircraft won't? Most places require one to fly in a straight line too.

Actually before one can consistently land properly one must be able to judge the height of the wheels above the runway ( Or any landing surface ).

There are two specific heights one must be able to accurately judge.

(1) ..... the height at which you change the approach path to the flare portion that will position the airplanes path from the approach angle to parallel with the landing surface.

(2) .... the height at which the wheels will contact the landing surface in the proper attitude for the device you are flying / driving / at that moment.

Over the decades I was in the flying skills upgrading business the inability to accurately judge these heights was the most frequent issue I found across the spectrum of pilots.

It is actually quite easy to re-teach them as long as the person you are teaching has normal vision and situational awareness. ( And an IQ above room temperature. ) :ok:

thing
31st Jan 2014, 16:57
There are two specific heights one must be able to accurately judge

I admire your skill in teaching people that, I haven't a clue how I judge how high I am, I just sort of do it correctly through the grace of God I think. It works, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Miserlou
31st Jan 2014, 16:58
Thing. some might say your faith in god is misplaced what with the lack of evidence for their existance. Back to flight school with you!

Ok. 'Won't' might be an over-simplerization. Should read, 'doesn't want to'.

Thus we are all covered. If I further modify to read 'fly level over the intended landing area at an inch or so until the aircraft no longer wants to', I think we can say this goat is clipped!

Now. About this parking business. Backwards is my answer. Perhaps a new thread for this one.

thing
31st Jan 2014, 17:41
Thing. some might say your faith in god is misplaced what with the lack of evidence for their existance. Back to flight school with you!Well, if it's good enough to prop up the whole of the world economy-as I'm sure you know 'In God we trust' is writ large on the US dollar bill-then I'm sure he/she/it can keep li'l ol me up in the air...:)

Armchairflyer
31st Jan 2014, 17:51
@thing: Not sure if this comparison should really make you feel comfortable :E

Cows getting bigger
31st Jan 2014, 17:57
A half decent pilot should be able to use either technique. Does it really matter which one is used?

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 17:59
thing ;)

No God is too busy for that he has an Army of Angels looking after us lot :ok:

i often refer to the fact that I have a very good Angel looking after me :E until a Pilot friend said he hoped she did not take a day off sometime :{

Pace

thing
31st Jan 2014, 18:00
A half decent pilot should be able to use either technique. Does it really matter which one is used?

Nope. As I said earlier, even a crab approach turns into a wing down approach somewhere along the line, (well it should do if you do it proper like) even if it's at the back end of the flare.

Piper.Classique
31st Jan 2014, 18:01
A half decent pilot should be able to use either technique. Does it really matter which one is used?

Amen to that.

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 18:02
even a crab approach turns into a wing down approach somewhere along the line, (well it should do if you do it proper like) even if it's at the back end of the flare.

why? Explain ????

Pace

thing
31st Jan 2014, 18:27
why? Explain ????

Pace Can't believe I'm explaining stuff to Pace! I feel all grown up now.

So you're coming in let's say with a crosswind from the right. You are crabbing off, nose right. All is good. You come to the flare and what do you do? At the appropriate moment you gently apply left rudder and right aileron to touch down right wheel first, your controls are crossed ergo you are in the moment before touchdown doing a slip approach!

If there's anything else I can advise you on please don't hesitate to ask...:}

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 18:35
;) I need loads of things explaining and I get it wrong plenty of times too :{
I am
Just being pedantic in the sense that as the aircraft comes straight maybe nearly the point you touch, secondly if you fly it on your flair maybe more of a check than a flare! Again we are presuming hanging in the air waiting for the aircraft to sink five feet

Pace

Chuck Ellsworth
31st Jan 2014, 18:36
I admire your skill in teaching people that, I haven't a clue how I judge how high I am, I just sort of do it correctly through the grace of God I think. It works, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

There are degrees of precision in most every en devour in our lives,flying is only one example.

For sure we can fly with rather wide margins of precision and not wreck airplanes....however if it is not all that difficult to be very precise in our ability to judge closing distance to the landing area and be very precise in judging the height of the wheels from the runway then why not strive for that level of proficiency?

A good example of the ability to accurately judge height would be a skill that is mandatory for aerial applicators when applying chemicals that require an accuracy of one or two feet from the start to the finish of the application run.

How long do you think an Ag. pilot would last if thy could not judge height very accurately?

pirx
31st Jan 2014, 18:39
why? Explain ????

Think of it like this:

You fly a crabbed approach. It's easy to do, doesn't upset the passengers. At some point you need to kick it straight.

If you are a Sky God you kick it straight 5 microseconds before the mains hit the hard, but for the rest of us what happens is that you straighten up at about 6 feet and immediately begin to drift off the center-line. So a bit of into wind aileron keeps you straight. After a while this becomes instinctive - all you do is fly down the center-line ........... there has to be a bit of wing down in there or you'd be going somewhere else, but it isn't something one thinks about.

It's the same as everything else in piloting: you need to learn a method to get you started. After a while all you do is fly the thing straight at the runway and down the center while you're juggling the loss of height, aiming at the threshold, getting the speed & attitude right ............ easy after an hour or two .....

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 18:40
Chuck

Or those amazing guys who water skim their tyres on the smooth surface of a lake

Pace

Chuck Ellsworth
31st Jan 2014, 18:48
Chuck

Or those amazing guys who water skim their tyres on the smooth surface of a lake

Pace

I have to admit that I do not consider that exercise to be a mark of professionalism, in fact I personally think it is reckless disregard for safety and a display of poor airmanship.

Yes, I do feel that I do have the mechanical ability to perform such a stunt...but my personal decision making process tells me the reward is not worth the risk......and I would be uncomfortable trying to explain why I was water skiing with a wheel equipped airplane if for instance the engine quit while doing it and I survived the crash. :ok:

thing
31st Jan 2014, 18:55
For sure we can fly with rather wide margins of precision and not wreck airplanes....however if it is not all that difficult to be very precise in our ability to judge closing distance to the landing area and be very precise in judging the height of the wheels from the runway then why not strive for that level of proficiency?I agree completely, When I used to fly gliders I would hold off feeling the swish of the grass against the mainwheel, so was maybe an inch or two above the deck, and revel in the fact that I could do that. However I still don't have a clue how I do it! I just fly it so that it looks and feels right. You know when it's going tits so you just make those unconscious movements to correct.

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 19:05
Chuck

Maybe reckless but still amazing precision flying nonetheless :ok:
And an example of why landing is not just about stalling it on

Pace Nb sure someone will put a clip up here for others to see

glendalegoon
31st Jan 2014, 19:05
two questions.

1. in the C172, is there some sort of limitation about slipping with full flaps?

Ihaven't flown one in 30 plus years,

2. IF the wing low crowd is flying an ILS to minimums in a rain storm with a crosswind, how do they fly the instrument portion correcting for changing winds during the descent?


just wanting to know, not trying to Peeeee anyone off

Chuck Ellsworth
31st Jan 2014, 19:06
I agree completely, When I used to fly gliders I would hold off feeling the swish of the grass against the mainwheel, so was maybe an inch or two above the deck, and revel in the fact that I could do that. However I still don't have a clue how I do it! I just fly it so that it looks and feels right. You know when it's going tits so you just make those unconscious movements to correct.

Your ability do do that was generated by either very good instruction or from self learning of what the picture looks like....what part of the picture gives you the best accuracy and the desire for precision.

The fact that you can do it is the main issue...I would not over think the how part at this point if I were you.:O.

thing
31st Jan 2014, 19:14
The fact that you can do it is the main issue...I would not over think the how part at this point if I were youExactly my point in a previous post about if it ain't broke don't fix it!

Your ability do do that was generated by either very good instruction

Have to say Chuck that I've been incredibly lucky and had some of the best instructors around in both gliding and powered, guys who live and breathe flying. Plus I belong to a club that has some of the most experienced pilots around, ex mil FJ, ex mil CFS instructors, airline pilots, warbird pilots, you name it we got 'em. Just listening to the talk at the tea bar is worth it's weight in gold. I guess it rubs off.


1. in the C172, is there some sort of limitation about slipping with full flaps?

Ihaven't flown one in 30 plus years,

2. IF the wing low crowd is flying an ILS to minimums in a rain storm with a crosswind, how do they fly the instrument portion correcting for changing winds during the descent?



1. Yes.

2. I had been thinking along the same lines. If you're 6 miles out and flying an ILS in an interesting xwind do the 'slippers' slip it or do they allow for wind and crab it? I obviously would offset for the wind ie crab it. Can't see as you could do anything else TBH as you have no visual reference to hold the slip to.

Pace
31st Jan 2014, 23:09
water skimming stunt planes - YouTube

Chuck an example of water Skimming :E Also an example of why landing an aircraft is not only about stalling it on 6 feet above the runway in strong crosswinds :ok: Fly it on! Maybe sitting in a crosswind 6 feet up having to go cross control is not the best way at all ?

These guys are totally unprofessional. mad as hatters and an example of bad airmanship ? :ok: But somehow good for them :ok:and an excellent example of how an aircraft can land at any speed not just stalled on. Before anyone suggests it I am not talking about landing at cruise speed but flying it on at maybe 5-10 KtS above the stall speeds especially with a good headwind component. Remember too with that tiny bit extra speed in strong wind you will have better control authority than at the stall.

Pace

Chuck Ellsworth
31st Jan 2014, 23:27
Yes Pace beyond doubt one can water ski a wheel equipped airplane and they do.

However when I am asked is it professional I can not think of any time during my career that I was asked to demonstrate the ability to water ski a wheel equipped airplane.

Even when renewing my Airdisplay Authority every year in Europe they never asked me to display that skill even though there was water nearby that was quite suitable for such a demo.

When I put that activity to the risk assessment to the reward test I find it to be not worth the risk......just imagine explaining to any regulatory body why you were doing that if you wrecked the airplane and lived.

How about this for a good show?

Float Plane forgets "wheels up" when landing on water - YouTube

tecman
1st Feb 2014, 01:14
Chuck, I've been enjoying reading the thread, which I picked up on only recently. One perspective I didn't see mentioned was that of someone flying some of the new-generation VLA or LSA aircraft. I fly one of these quite a lot, as well as the usual GA stuff. It's a classic lightweight (<600 kg) low-wing, low wing loading, low stall speed design, with good demonstrated cross-wind capability (22 kt). I also fly in a windy locality, with strong gusting winds being the norm for much of the year.

The first thing in this scenario is that care is going to be needed regardless of the landing technique you choose: a little aeroplane, needing slow approach speeds in strong gusting winds means you're going to be busy. I'm happy to fly either wing-down or crabbed approaches but I find that in the worst conditions, with the x/w at maximum demonstrated or beyond, a crabbed approach works best. The crab angle is essentially instantly adjustable and I find the aircraft is particularly easy to land using a late transition to wing down and rudder as required to keep straight. That aside, with the gusts being a fair component of the stall speed, and disdaining excess approach speed, I feel safer flying final with no crossed controls (even though I know the safety margins are high in the approach and landing configuration).

Having said all that, I love flying the classic flapless taildraggers with a wing-down approach, probably just because I can. Also, being a lazy type it just seems as though when you're using some slip to adjust the approach anyway, why not use it for drift offset? Just a preference and not meant to be consistent with the LSA situation.

Finally, I only saw one other reference to a crab on final with a bit of wing down. I've flown with quite a few bush pilots who do this but I've also observed that quite a few others do it instinctively, which I think is no bad thing.

3 Point
1st Feb 2014, 08:39
Hi tecman,

An excellent post; I absolutely agree with your comments. Different techniques employed for different situations as appropriate. Not a "one size fits all" mentality!

Happy landings

3 Point

Pace
1st Feb 2014, 09:23
3 point

I agree too! you should use whatever method suits you and the aircraft but you should do that because it is a choice not because you are frightened of or feel incapable of dealing with other methods.
In that case you would be better going up with an instructor on a windy day and hammering out the approaches until you are comfortable handling the aircraft near the ground in all conditions and methods.

Only then choose which method you like best!

Pace

phiggsbroadband
1st Feb 2014, 10:10
Hi Tecman... you quote..
'with the x/w at maximum demonstrated or beyond, a crabbed approach works best. The crab angle is essentially instantly adjustable'


Whilst you probably do this instinctively, I would still like to ask...How do you instantly adjust the crab angle.. With aileron? or with rudder? Or perhaps you haven't really thought about it too deeply, and just got on with it.


I am still sitting on the fence here, and will continue to fly finals with a partial rudder input. It doesn't look as alarming as a full crab or a full side-slip. (and in a C172 you should not side-slip with flaps down.)

Pace
1st Feb 2014, 10:35
Phiggbroadband

With this discussion you would think the crab is unique to an approach to landing?
Unless you are flying on a windless day you are crabbing all the time to maintain a track from A to B usually at altitude in far stronger winds than you get on the approach.

Ok for most the autopilot does that for you on those long legs you have it in nav mode so the poor autopilot and FD does the job for you but think about it ;)
All you would do in a crab to land is what you would do for the earlier flight maintaining a track.

You would certainly not fly crossed controls leg A to B so that your heading and track are then the same regardless of a 50 kt X wind from the right at altitude!!! All the while accepting the extra drag that configuration would incur and the lower airspeed! Why change that down the approach ?

The only issue occurs when you need to change from the crab to align with the runway to land so the aircraft does not touch down sideways but really you are talking the last 10 feet that last 10 feet may require crossed controls then again if you get it right it won't.

the poor old autopilot will even do that for you down the ILS until you disconnect at maybe 200 feet.

it all smacks at an inability to deal with those last 10 feet!
I could equally ask you how do you fly on a 70 mile leg from A to B with a changing crosswind from the right while trying to maintain a track? Cross controls?

Pace

tecman
1st Feb 2014, 11:14
Phiggs,

I do it as coordinated turns but don't forget they are very small turns. Typically, you're correcting with small heading deviations about a mean offset, so talking about a coordinated turn might be a bit academic - but that's what I'm aiming for.

Incidentally, the 'crab + last minute wing down and straight with rudder' is referred to in Australia as the 'combination' method but I don't know if that's the terminology used elsewhere.

As i mentioned I'm in no way alarmed by the wing down method but just wanted to give a vote to the crab at the VLA/LSA end of the scale. I might say that while I've never found the timescales to make the requisite small crab adjustments an issue in any aircraft, the bug smasher is a delightfully responsive aircraft and demands/rewards good technique. Probably not a great IFR platform, of course.

Desert185
1st Feb 2014, 11:21
For those of you who aspire to only fly light aircraft VFR/VMC and like the slip all the way down final, regardless of turbulence or high density altitude, and if slipping works for you, don't change a thing.

For those of you who aspire to fly something larger or more sophisticated while IFR/IMC with an autopilot, you had better learn how to fly final in a crab and make the landing transition to a slip.

That's about as simple as I can put it.

dash6
1st Feb 2014, 11:55
Surely,if using the crab method,you end up transitioning to wing down in the flare you've mis-timed it? As you (smoothly) apply rudder to align with the runway,aileron is used as required to maintain wings level? Parking...front in. Easier to load from the trolley.:)

FullWings
1st Feb 2014, 12:11
I use both techniques, depending on what I'm flying and the conditions.

Landing gliders with their long spans close to the ground I crab until the last second then gently align the fuselage with the direction of landing whilst keeping the wings level. On the 777-2/300, by about 150-200' above the TDZ I'll have transitioned from crabbing to aligned with the runway in a stable sideslip. If the cross component exceeds about 25kts, I'll take c.25kts worth with wing down and get rid of the rest with a de-crab in the flare. In the Cub, there is nothing more joyous than landing on one main wheel 1/2kt above the stall and rolling out in a straight line with the wing gently coming back up - shame that it doesn't happen that way very often!

The benefits from a wing-down approach in a large/long aircraft, assuming that the airframe geometry will let you, are: a) tracking down the centreline and not having to guess how far upwind you need to place yourself to be aligned when de-crabbing and b) if you misjudge the flare and float a bit or are caught by a gust, you have time to sort it out, rather than being drifted downwind off the centreline. Having a bit of extra drag helps to keep the engines in the rapid response range, especially with a tail component.

In crosswinds, unless you just put the aircraft down on the runway with no adjustment whatsoever apart from flaring (and there are conditions where that is the right thing to do), you are using a variant of the wing down method. It might be better named the "very late wing down technique". It may not be a balanced/stable slip but a slip it is: witness the crossed controls.

Chuck Ellsworth
1st Feb 2014, 14:41
We should start a new thread on how to land as this has morphed into a how to land thread.

I started this thread to ask why so many pilots side slip all the way down the final approach. :ugh:

FullWings
1st Feb 2014, 15:02
Chuck,

Your OP:

There are a lot of pilots who use the wing down sideslip method to keep their airplane tracking the runway center line on the final approach to landing.

Which is probably correct, given circumstances and aircraft limitations.

Do they fly their cross country tracks using the wing down side slip method to maintain the desired track?

I suspect not.

I started this thread to ask why so many pilots side slip all the way down the final approach.

Not so sure about that. Never seen it myself unless they're too high, the final approach is extremely short or they are "top ruddering" round onto final where it's natural to continue with a slip?

We should start a new thread on how to land as this has morphed into a how to land thread.

Don't hold back... ;)

foxmoth
1st Feb 2014, 16:02
I started this thread to ask why so many pilots side slip all the way down the final approach.

Well, reading through the thread I would say that actually not that many DO side slip all the way down, it would seem to me that most crab to 300' or less and then either kick straight for landing (what I would describe as a FULL crab technique landing), or transition at some point to wing down, many actually doing so as they kick straight in the flare.
There are some on the thread that seem to say crab is the ONLY technique that is right and IMHO these are as wrong as those that say that wing down is the only technique, I have been flying 40 years now and never had a problem with crosswinds, personally I prefer wing down because from the time you set the aircraft up like that you point the nose straight down the runway and it stays there until you are at a speed to turn off. I CAN fly crab, and indeed teach it because I like my students to know how to do BOTH methods, I also fly LARGE (360 seat) aircraft, but still prefer wing down ON LANDING. I can accept though that others prefer crab and you should stick to what suits you and the aircraft you are flying.

Pace
1st Feb 2014, 17:18
Fox MOTH :ok:

I must admit to alway using the crab and cannot genuinely remember a bad or overly heavy landing in the past 15 years.( genuine )
Nevertheless I will try your technique when I get the jet out of maintenance ! If I mess up and blot a 15 year personal record I am going to blame you :E

Pace

Chuck Ellsworth
1st Feb 2014, 17:29
, it would seem to me that most crab to 300' or less

Not meaning to be pedantic but I am trying to remember if I was ever stabilized on an instrument approach in IMC and at three hundred feet destabilized from balanced flight controls to a sideslip in preparation for landing on a runway I still can't see. :confused:

Smokey Lomcevak
1st Feb 2014, 17:39
The ways I see it, in a x-wind condition, a landing will require a side-slip into wind if one is to avoid side-loading the landing gear. It therefore becomes simply a choice regarding when one introduces this slip angle - during the final approach ("wing down method") or during the flare ("crab method"). I would therefore suggest that a crabbed approach with a flare that aligns the aircraft with the runway, with opposite aileron to maintain wings level is only a partial solution. Any X-wind condition will then blow the aircraft downwind, creating side-load at touch down. Lowering the into wind wing, and side slipping against the relative airflow would be the only way to maintain the aircraft trajectory parallel to the runway axis. So we find ourselves in a condition that is essentially the same as our "wing down" approach.

In the real world, of course, the more mass an aircraft possesses, the less it will be influenced by that momentary crosswind during the flare. Thus less upwind wing down will be required, so long as a touchdown follows promptly. In a lighter aircraft it becomes more of an issue because the xwong component at flare time will have more of an effect.

I appreciate that I'm looking at this rather academically, and absolutely eliminating gear side loading may not be necessarym- it is simply a case of controlling it within readable levels.

The 737 has been mentioned about its ability to withstand side loaded landings with a crab angle still present. I seem to remember being told that this was as a result of its inability to lower the upwind wing sufficiently without banging the new high-bypass engines fitted to the 300 onwards whilst still maintaining the rather squat landing gear.

I suppose my point is that, whilst this topic seems to come up with some regularity, the two approaches are not that dissimilar, and ought to result in the same outcome - a landing in the slipped condition. I would also suggest that the phrase 'maintaining into wind aileron to stay wings level' is not enough. Academically speaking, it would still result in a side loaded landing, and the object of de-crabbing in the first place was to avoid that.

2 cents etc..

foxmoth
2nd Feb 2014, 00:43
Pace,
if you read my post you will see that I am NOT advocating wing down for you,as you say, you would probably screw it up and bend your aircraft!:sad: I am merely stating what most people seem to do reading the thread, what I prefer, and that you should not be so pedantic that crab is the only way!

Chuck,
Also not reading I think, I did not say that I would transition AT 300', just that most do that somewhere between 300' and roundout. Personally, including in a large aircraft, I would hold the crab until roundout, then straighten, lowering the into wind wing at the same time, the amount of wing down being dependant on wind and aircraft type, even with crab you destabilise at this point with the kick straight. Most Tailwheel vintage aircraft it would be a slipping approach anyway to see better (the forward/side slip bit I think is a North American thing, do not really get that distinction here in UK). Teaching is where I would be getting the student to set up wing down at around 300' - and actually is an argument for your original post of doing it from a long way out - you would then be flying a STABLE wing down approach all the way down, but as has been said, not comfortable and really unnecessary, in a light aircraft 300' gives plenty of time for a student to set it up and be stable for landing - and of course you do not then de stabilise in the flare with large rudder inputs!:ok:

Prop swinger
2nd Feb 2014, 06:01
dash6, Smokey,

You don't need to transition to wing down to stop any sideways drift. If you hold the crab throughout the round out & hold off the aircraft will continue to track down the runway. As the nose rises to the landing attitude you feed in rudder to align the fuselage with the runway.

Applying rudder will not change the direction of travel of the aircraft, certainly not in the couple of seconds it takes for the aircraft to run out of energy & touch down. Crosswind or not, the aircraft will continue to track down the runway after you put in the rudder. The only thing you need to do with the ailerons is keep the wings level.

BBK
2nd Feb 2014, 06:18
There seem to be broad groups contributing to this thread. There's the "I may use crab and/or wing down. What ever works on the day, is recommended by the manufacturer, whatever is mandated by SOPs. In short a flexible approach that gets the job done etc etc!".;)

versus

"Crabbing is the only way.....".:E

Fly safe y'all.

BBK

Pace
2nd Feb 2014, 08:06
Foxmoth

I never said crab was the only way! I said the wing down/crossed controls is used by a small percentage of pilots while the vast majority use the Crab.
(proof of the pudding?)
I also expressed a concern that SOME may use the crossed control method because they are insecure handling winds and transitioning from crab to landing straight. I stated that if you are confortable with all manner of landings and happen to choose the crossed controls then Fine.

I dont know what your PAX are like but mine do not like wings going up or down But can get a nice look at the runway through the sidewindows in the crab :E :ok:

Pace

foxmoth
2nd Feb 2014, 09:18
I never said crab was the only way! I said the wing down/crossed controls is used by a small percentage of pilots while the vast majority use the Crab.
(proof of the pudding?)
I also expressed a concern that SOME may use the crossed control method because they are insecure handling winds and transitioning from crab to landing straight. I stated that if you are confortable with all manner of landings and happen to choose the crossed controls then Fine.

OK Pace, well it has certainly felt at times that you were advocating crab as the only way, happy to hear otherwise! Whilst you may be correct in that a majority use crab, I would say that this is because of the trend to tricycle gear and the fact that many instructors ONLY teach crab having learnt on Pa28/38 and getting worried about touching the wing (not really a problem unless you take it to extremes) - I could of course be totally wrong!
Again if you read my posts you will see that I DO often use crab on the approach - but transition to a wing down in the flare, so my pax also get a nice sideways view!:ok:

Piper.Classique
2nd Feb 2014, 10:48
I started this thread to ask why so many pilots side slip all the way down the final approach

Well, Chuck, all the way down can be quite a short time depending on what one is flying and why one is in the air...tugging the approach is typically started at 300 feet or less, and there aren't any passengers to upset

:)

And I can do a crab or a wing down, but I happen to prefer wing down even though I have to teach crab if I am working to the French PPL syllabus.

Crash one
2nd Feb 2014, 10:55
My miserable opinion after just 250hous is that any aircraft is crabbing to some extent wherever it is going, except directly into or out of any wind. I've never flown big stuff but I can't see that size makes all that much difference apart from response time? As for this transition thing I tend to try to "square it up" as late as possible, just as the wheels start to bend the grass is best, but certainly nowhere near 300feet. Then it seems it is aileron down rather than wing down cos the wheels are on the ground.Nice to see Chuck back. Your sort of experience is in short supply.

IFMU
2nd Feb 2014, 12:43
I had switched to sitting out this one, as I am not sure I am qualified. But I do recall, years ago, discussions with the chief instructor of my first soaring club. He was an advocate of touching down in a slip. John started out in B17's during the war. His early airline experience was piston and he transitioned to jets like many of his peers. He felt he knew where the engines were and how much wing down he could do without harm. He was not big on the crab and kick method.

I did my 10 hours of acro training in a Pitts S2A. That instructor was a little younger. He was flying P51s at the end of the war but didn't make it overseas. Later he was training the young jocks who flew in Korea. We spent a bunch of time doing landings, including heading to the big airport for hardtop and crosswind. That was all wing down. I think it would take a leap of faith for either the pilot, or especially the instructor to get the timing right in the Pitts to kick it out at the last minute. This is especially true at my skill level.

I know I will not try it in the C140 I rent. I would be willing to be shown by somebody covered by insurance. Personally I like the slow motion touchdown, or takeoff, where nothing is hurried and all control inputs are slow and steady. I like to prolong the touchdown as long as possible, a slow tradeoff of wings vs wheels bearing the weight.
Bryan

Fly-by-Wife
2nd Feb 2014, 13:25
dash6, Smokey,

You don't need to transition to wing down to stop any sideways drift. If you hold the crab throughout the round out & hold off the aircraft will continue to track down the runway. As the nose rises to the landing attitude you feed in rudder to align the fuselage with the runway.

Applying rudder will not change the direction of travel of the aircraft, certainly not in the couple of seconds it takes for the aircraft to run out of energy & touch down. Crosswind or not, the aircraft will continue to track down the runway after you put in the rudder. The only thing you need to do with the ailerons is keep the wings level.

I think you are confusing track with heading. If you align the aircraft so that you are flying the runway heading, a crosswind will indeed drift the aircraft sideways while it is still airborne.

The amount of drift will be proportional to the strength of the x-wind component, the inertia of the aircraft and the length of time that the x-wind has to act on the aircraft.

In certain circumstances this may well be negligible, as you suggest, but with a light aircraft in a strong x-wind it is most assuredly not trivial!

FBW

RTN11
2nd Feb 2014, 14:16
It's just using one of the tools available to you in the later stages of the approach. Nothing wrong with side slip, it's very useful to be able to do it effectively and safely, and is a skill that should be practised regularly.

Obviously it's not appropriate in all aircraft, and even more obviously you wouldn't use it while cruising.

This video gives a nice view of the slips that are available. How many do you use?

A Sarcastic View of Pattern Flying - YouTube

tmmorris
2nd Feb 2014, 16:15
RNT11, loving that video, especially the epaulettes.

Flying as I do out of a military airfield, we don't do big circuits. Sometimes I go to other airfields, fly a circuit which avoids local villages &c, then compare it to the noise abatement diagram in the clubhouse and find I've just flown INSIDE the villages they say to go OUTSIDE.

And that's in a spamcan - it could be tighter still in something more sporty...

Desert185
2nd Feb 2014, 16:29
Boy, that needs to be said/watched everyday...by pilots of all types of aircraft. :ugh:

thing
2nd Feb 2014, 18:48
Flying as I do out of a military airfield, we don't do big circuits.

Snap. Never figured out why they go for the big square pattern at other fields, although obviously I do them because that's what's required. Oval circuits make far more sense. To me anyway.

IFMU
2nd Feb 2014, 18:51
Excellent video. I am a small pattern kind of guy. Was the cub guy a slip or crab on final advocate though? I am unsure.

Prop swinger
2nd Feb 2014, 20:31
I think you are confusing track with heading. If you align the aircraft so that you are flying the runway heading, a crosswind will indeed drift the aircraft sideways while it is still airborne.

The amount of drift will be proportional to the strength of the x-wind component, the inertia of the aircraft and the length of time that the x-wind has to act on the aircraft.

In certain circumstances this may well be negligible, as you suggest, but with a light aircraft in a strong x-wind it is most assuredly not trivial!

FBWI most certainly am not confusing track & heading. A crabbed approach is flown with the heading offset into wind so that the aircraft tracks down the extended runway centreline. You don't want to touch down like that as the side loads can damage the undercarriage so before landing you use the rudder to align the aircraft heading with it's track.

Here's the crucial bit: applying rudder does not change the direction in which the aircraft moves through the air. The direction of travel through the air will continue to be towards the windward side of the runway, add in the effect of the wind & the aircraft will continue to track down the runway centreline, even if the wings are level. It's an aircraft, not a boat. The rudder does not turn the aircraft, not at 2,000', not at 6".

(OK, if you shove in a bootful of rudder & keep the wings level, an aircraft will gradually, slowly, eventually change direction, but we're talking about the last second or two of flight here. There isn't enough time for the rudder to change the direction of travel at the end of a crabbed approach.)

Fly-by-Wife
2nd Feb 2014, 22:40
OK, propswinger, I see your point.

If you keep the crab on all the way to touch down then I agree, you would be tracking the runway centreline but touching down with side loading.

In your scenario, the facing of the aircraft is changed by rudder, which does not change the direction of travel of the aircraft, just the direction it's facing, so that you land with the aircraft aligned with the direction of travel.

All well and good, but my point is that after removing the crab angle, there's a period of time when the aircraft is now drifting sideways - pointing parallel to the runway, but developing a lateral component due to the X-wind.

Depending on the strength of the x-wind component, the inertia of the aircraft and the length of time that the x-wind has to act on the aircraft, this may be insignificant enough not to be a problem - as you suggest - but on the other hand it may be very significant indeed.

FBW

Chuck Ellsworth
2nd Feb 2014, 22:53
All well and good, but my point is that after removing the crab angle, there's a period of time when the aircraft is now drifting sideways - pointing parallel to the runway, but developing a lateral component due to the X-wind.

And that is why you now are using into wind aileron and opposite rudder to side slip into wind enough to track straight down the runway. :ok::ok::ok:

EUREKA!

Desert185
3rd Feb 2014, 00:22
All well and good, but my point is that after removing the crab angle, there's a period of time when the aircraft is now drifting sideways - pointing parallel to the runway, but developing a lateral component due to the X-wind.

As you reduce the crab the wing is lowered simultaneously, so there is no side drift. If done correctly, of course.

Chuck Ellsworth
3rd Feb 2014, 00:42
Exactly Desert185 its not black magic. :) :ugh:

Tinstaafl
3rd Feb 2014, 03:45
I see there to be 3 methods:

1. Slip final through the flare & hold off until both mainwheels are on the ground
2. Crab final through the flare & hold off, yaw in flat turn to align the aircraft a bare instant before both mainwheels touchdown.
3. Combination: Crab final until at some point a transition to a slip is made, leading to a slipped landing. Where that transition is can vary. Some start it prior to the flare - even a few hundred feet AGL - others as they flare, and yet others just prior to landing as an addition to the crab method.


My preference is a combination technique, starting the yaw & wing down as I flare. I don't like a slipped final because of the added drag (unless I want extra drag for some reason) and unpleasant side forces for my pax. I found that a pure crab method relied too much on a precision timing and if misjudged resulted in either landing still with some crab not yet removed, or a drift starting if slightly early and needing some wing down anyway to prevent the drift. A gust could also interfere with the timing and need some wing down anyway.

In Islanders in Shetland the rate of yaw just wasn't sufficient to allow a crab only method to work in the really strong winds (gale, strong gale & storm force). By the time the aircraft was part way aligned it would start to drift. Even using asymmetric power to increase the yaw rate wasn't always sufficient. The end result was that I'd yaw at max rate just before touchdown (with asymm. power if needed) while lowering a wing to counter the immediately developing drift.

Flyingmac
3rd Feb 2014, 07:44
Not me, but it could have been.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af0Ky4Xomew

Pace
3rd Feb 2014, 10:36
T

All the examples here seem to be taildraggers often flapless ones at that and I can well see the reasons why crossed controls side slips etc become far more important but!
In strong winds if you need to bring in aeleron and rudder you have got it wrong in heavier singles, twins , etc.
The perfect situation would be bringing the aircraft straight at the point the wheels touch so anything else means you are hanging mid air holding off!
Ok none of us get it right :ok: So those techniques are required to stop the aircraft being blown across the runway. Being purist though and that is not required.
The other option is to fly it on especially in strong winds and not to sit there attempting to hold off but basically to put it down.
Maybe not a chairmans landing but a firmer arrival. In such winds the last thing you want is to be hanging in there 6 feet off the runway waiting for the aircraft to sink.

Pace

phiggsbroadband
3rd Feb 2014, 15:23
Nice video but did you notice that it was dead calm? The only time the grass moved was when the plane's wing wake caused it (at time 30 sec.)


I suspect he taxies out of the hanger like that...

Chuck Ellsworth
3rd Feb 2014, 15:40
It was an excellent demonstration of an approach, landing and running down the grass with the tail in the air using the forward slip technique.

It is a very useful method of teaching airplane handling skills.

Pace
3rd Feb 2014, 17:04
Oh well if you really want a close up of how close to the runway your tyres are you could always try this new technique:ok:

Craig Hosking's Upside Down Landing and Takeoff - YouTube

Armchairflyer
3rd Feb 2014, 17:37
You just made my evening, Pace :-D Loony but cool.

treadigraph
3rd Feb 2014, 19:23
...and Craig Hosking wasn't the first - another American, Mike Murphy did it in the 1930s with a specially built aircraft named Cheek to Cheek.

Maoraigh1
4th Feb 2014, 05:28
Thread Drift. If you watch Flyingmac's video Alien Landings 1 to the end, a link to Alien Landings 2 appears at the top left. It's a DH82 Thruxton Jackeroo - C-FPHZ. G-APHZ was exported to Canada in 1970. I wonder if she's still flying. I did some of my PPL training in her in 1964.

piperboy84
4th Feb 2014, 06:12
I cross control it down every time coz wings level crabbing just does not feel right to me when on final although I do carry a few exta mph because of the x control config and the ASI being even more inaccurate on final when slipping.

On a completely different subject I,m logged in here using my new iPad and the posts that have video links just appear as large grey boxes with the video title at the top but nowhere to click the link to play it, anyone any ideas ?

Cows getting bigger
4th Feb 2014, 06:29
Pace nice video. Would he stall if he lowered the nose?

Don't worry, I'll get my own coat. :)

Flyingmac
4th Feb 2014, 07:14
It's a DH82 Thruxton Jackeroo - C-FPHZ. G-APHZ was exported to Canada in
1970. I wonder if she's still flying. I did some of my PPL training in her in
1964


Still flying. Toronto. http://wwwapps2.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/ccarcs/aspscripts/en/current.asp

C-FPHZ | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/steelhead2010/5100186950/)

Jim59
4th Feb 2014, 09:58
On a completely different subject I,m logged in here using my new iPad and the posts that have video links just appear as large grey boxes with the video title at the top but nowhere to click the link to play it, anyone any ideas ?

Blame apple and try a different browse app.

How to get Flash on iPad: Play Flash videos and games on iPad, iPad mini - How to - Macworld UK (http://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/apple/how-get-flash-ipad-3460979/)

Pace
4th Feb 2014, 14:15
Pace nice video. Would he stall if he lowered the nose?

if he lowered the nose probably not If he put in the same control inputs as flying the right way up yes.
obviously a stall is dependant on AOA not whether you push the nose up or down but in this situation if he pushed forwards he would climb and increase AOA if he pulled back the opposite.
But upside down he would get a very good view of the tyres and as such would not have to sit there waiting for the aircraft to sink onto the runway but would know when the tyres were about to touch.

so could be a new technique for precise flying it on :ok: the other option a redesign of the undercarriage so the wheels rotate automatically to align with the runway regardless of crab.
Then you could land in a crab situation with the crab :ok: :eek: Je jest

Pace

phiggsbroadband
4th Feb 2014, 15:32
Isn't it funny, all the theory of NACA Airfoil sections, a nice curve to the top of the wing, and a flat bottom section... When the thing works perfectly well upside down!


As for.. 'if he lowered the nose', I suppose you need to define what you mean by 'lowered'.... wrt what?

Chuck Ellsworth
4th Feb 2014, 16:18
To avoid confusion it is best to think of it as reducing angle of attack on the lifting surface.

Desert185
4th Feb 2014, 17:10
piperboy

On a completely different subject I,m logged in here using my new iPad and the posts that have video links just appear as large grey boxes with the video title at the top but nowhere to click the link to play it, anyone any ideas ?

Click on the title portion of the box and it will play.

Desert185
4th Feb 2014, 17:11
Isn't it funny, all the theory of NACA Airfoil sections, a nice curve to the top of the wing, and a flat bottom section... When the thing works perfectly well upside down!

But with considerably more drag.:)

thing
4th Feb 2014, 18:13
Isn't it funny, all the theory of NACA Airfoil sections, a nice curve to the top of the wing, and a flat bottom section... When the thing works perfectly well upside down!


Read somewhere recently that it might be all wrong and the flat plate effect is much more powerful than we thought. Although having said that, you would have thought that over the last hundred years they would have figured it out.

Pace
4th Feb 2014, 21:06
Chuck

going back to an earlier video on the water skimming i wonder if its as dangerous as we think?
i would be surprised if a respected aerobatic team would all do something with high risk?
I know at a certain velocity divers hitting water are faced with certain death as the water is almost solid.

I would like to know these pilots technique?

Maybe at high speed the lake becomes almost like a runway. Maybe with brakes on the tyre profile pushes the aircraft away from the surface hence stopping the wheels from digging in?

Maybe a bit like skimming a flat pebble over water it only dives in when the velocity dies.

I don't know the answer! but had the same impression as you at first that the procedure was high risk. Now not so sure? Going off topic but just interested :ok: if anyone knows?

You might get one Nutter individual out to kill himself but not an organised team and not flying it in formation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgkKP_fDsKc
Pace

Chuck Ellsworth
4th Feb 2014, 22:03
going back to an earlier video on the water skimming i wonder if its as dangerous as we think?

From what I have heard there have been a few who for whatever reason went end over end water skiing wheel equipped airplanes.


i would be surprised if a respected aerobatic team would all do something with high risk?

I can not answer that particular question as that team was in South Africa and I never held a South African Air Display Authority, mine was European and I got mine in 1997 when I was flying for the " French Flying Legends Organization " and held it until 2005 when I retired from that business.

In Europe we were restricted to a floor of 200 feet at all airshows so water skiing was a moot point for us.

The physics of such a display are quite well known, it is hydroplaning.

Hydroplaning works best with the brakes on as you can demonstrate with your car.

Is it high risk??

That is a question each pilot must answer for him / her self....for me it would have been because I needed my license to earn my living so water skiing an airplane was never really an appealing sport for me. :)

And I always felt I would rather be a live chicken than a dead duck. :ok:

david viewing
5th Feb 2014, 12:58
Sorry to come late to this well mannered and highly educational thread, but I can't help feeling that we've missed the point. This is about what happens on that day when, despite the best pre-flight planning, the crosswind goes outside 'demonstrated' limits.

I've always used crab angle right to the ground, straightening just before the wheels touch, and this has served me (and apparently my aircraft) well. This was especially true one day flying my PA-28 to a single runway airport in Sweden where the unforecast x-wind component turned out to be 30kt+. The landing was a non-event, unlike the subsequent taxi which was extremely difficult due to the aircraft constantly wanting to weathercock.

As I turned off I watched the next arrival, an ATR flying wing low, and for a moment I really thought the wing tip had touched the ground. It's the closest I've been to witnessing a CAT incident.

The PA-28 could not have held off that ferocious crosswind wing low, because there is just not the control authority, but in the crab it can defy (almost) any wind. Of course in the last few feet the wind gradient usually falls off, meaning that the 'kicking' straight is normally a gradual adjustment, not the violent manoevre described by some. Just be ready to keep straight during the roll out!

Pace
5th Feb 2014, 13:06
meaning that the 'kicking' straight is normally a gradual adjustment, not the violent manoevre described by some. Just be ready to keep straight during the roll out!

David I totally agree with your above comment kicking straight is way off the mark squeezing is probably more appropriate

Pace

Chuck Ellsworth
5th Feb 2014, 17:31
Exactly.....by aligning the aircraft straight down the runway inertia of mass will keep the airplane from drifting sideways......as long as you do not stay in the air to long. :ok::ok::ok:

Sorry to come late to this well mannered and highly educational thread,

Isn't it amazing how discussing things like adults makes for a better experience?:)

Desert185
5th Feb 2014, 19:04
Kicking is a slang term which isn't exactly accurately descriptive of the rate of rudder action required to align the longitudinal axis of the flying machine with the actual magnetic heading of the runway while using visual cues...like calling a "spot of tea" a spot. :rolleyes:

:p

Pace
5th Feb 2014, 19:35
Exactly.....by aligning the aircraft straight down the runway inertia of mass will keep the airplane from drifting sideways......as long as you do not stay in the air to long.

Chuck has it right on the nail! There is no need to go crossed control from a crab. it should be a squeeze on the rudder to bring the aircraft straight on the runway followed by the tyres touching.

if you end up poised like a constipated ballerina 6 feet up in the air pulling back trying to get the aircraft to sink, then yes you will be putting in all manner of control inputs voluntary and probably involuntary to stop yourself examining the field alongside the runway at close quarters but you got it wrong!

Ok we can all get a gust which picks us back up and have to sort it with aeleron and rudder but its usually technique which is wrong which makes you go from crab to wing down.
.
If the winds are that strong don't hang around but learn to fly the aircraft on and put it down firmly!

Pace

Chuck Ellsworth
5th Feb 2014, 20:09
With regard to the time frame between the flare and the touch down the shorter the time frame the less exposure one has to both drift caused by X/wind and height above the runway variations caused by wind gusts and thermal activity due to temperature changes.

I am cursed with the habit of using logic to help solve problems and thus have come to the conclusion that carrying power through the flare and hold off portion of any landing just exposes me to higher risk of destabilizing the flight path of the device I am flying at the time.

So I almost always reduce power to zero once the runway touch down point is assured.......generally between two hundred feet above touch down to fifty feet above touch down.....

....I find I have better control of the device using inertia as my power source rather than extending the process by using power as a crutch for poor aircraft handling skills......

If I can recall any aircraft fixed wing or rotary wing that I could not land safely and under control power off I will get back to you......:E

riverrock83
5th Feb 2014, 20:11
The PA-28 could not have held off that ferocious crosswind wing low, because there is just not the control authority, but in the crab it can defy (almost) any wind. Of course in the last few feet the wind gradient usually falls off, meaning that the 'kicking' straight is normally a gradual adjustment, not the violent manoevre described by some. Just be ready to keep straight during the roll out!

I'm surprised that that. I'd have thought to get the max possible cross wind (lets ignore demonstrated) you would need to use a combinations of both techniques (crabbed and wing down). I haven't quite got it right in my head, but if you have enough rudder authority to "kick" straight, why wouldn't you have enough authority to have a wing down approach?

I'm not sure if this helps, but this is Airbus' advice:
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/safety_library_items/AirbusSafetyLib_-FLT_OPS-LAND-SEQ05.pdf

At the top crosswind limits, it talks about crabbing on the approach, but using wing down by around 5 degrees and 5 degree crab angle when touching down.

At the moment I normally crab until not far off the runway, then transition to wing low, stabilise, then flare with wing low. This works.

I had a problem in training when I had myself sorted for a certain cross wind, then would apply the same rudder input when I had a lesser crosswind and ended up crabbed the wrong direction (low enough that was still on the centre line but the tyres didn't like it...). 2nd time - no problems as I'd learnt, that is until the next time I flew, when the crosswind component would be different and I'd have the same problem again.
Transitioning higher I found considerably easier and more stable. Over time I've transitioned lower and lower as I've gained experience, but it takes experience to know how much rudder input is needed to get yourself straight without labouring the transition so you end up drifting.

My instructors were happy to teach both techniques and discuss the advantages of each.

Yes - I was training in a 20kt crosswind at times and in a Bulldog which has a v. powerful rudder (max demonstrated = 35kt!) so lack of technique is / was magnified.

riverrock83
5th Feb 2014, 20:16
I am cursed with the habit of using logic to help solve problems and thus have come to the conclusion that carrying power through the flare and hold off portion of any landing just exposes me to higher risk of destabilizing the flight path of the device I am flying at the time.

So I almost always reduce power to zero once the runway touch down point is assured.......generally between two hundred feet above touch down to fifty feet above touch down.....


Interesting with the Airbus, that a higher approach speed reduces risk (see doc linked to above). I'm quoting airbus as I've not seen the equivalent for smaller aircraft documented like this.

No issues though in having a steeper approach with lower power settings in a small GA aircraft. 3 degree glideslopes were not designed for PA28s!

Chuck Ellsworth
5th Feb 2014, 20:22
but it takes experience to know how much rudder input is needed to get yourself straight without labouring the transition so you end up drifting.

Yes, experience is vital in performing any physical exercise accurately, however if we look at this in its most simple context we use the picture we see at the moment to determine how much control input we need to point the airplane in the correct position for touch down.

Control input is easier to determine if you have been properly taught attitudes and movements at the start of your flight training.

Chuck Ellsworth
5th Feb 2014, 20:34
Interesting with the Airbus, that a higher approach speed reduces risk (see doc linked to above). I'm quoting airbus as I've not seen the equivalent for smaller aircraft documented like this.

Hi Riverrock, time dims the memory for recalling numbers etc. of different airplanes it has been a long time since I did the simulator training at Airbus and I never had the opportunity to fly the Bus in commercial operations......but as I recall in normal law, rudder input was cancelled by the flight computers above floor alpha during the landing approach so side slipping way back in the final approach was not possible in normal law.....

.......is my recall wrong?

riverrock83
5th Feb 2014, 22:11
Chuck
As you'll know from my profile - I'm a low hours PPL. I don't pretend to be anything different. No willie waving required!

However, I understand that certainly on the newest Airbus aircraft (A380) you can command a side slip angle using the rudder pedals, with help from three vanes mounted on the nose which calculate the sideslip angle. The system will automatically put in the correct bank angle to maintain the heading. At least one article has been written which includes testing this during a simulated approach.

Not quite sure what alpha floor has got to do with it. If you hit alpha floor protection you are going around...

However, back on topic I quoted the airbus doc as it includes graphs of bank angle vs crab angle for different crosswind speeds with geometry limitations. The numbers aren't going to work for your average PA28 but it shows how these relate to approach speed and how you can reduce extremes of bank or crab angle by combining them.

Chuck Ellsworth
5th Feb 2014, 22:46
I had no idea of your real background Riverrock, I thought maybe you were an airline pilot flying the Bus because you brought the Airbus into the discussion.

Alpha floor protection in normal law is to prevent the pilots from stalling the airplane in the low speed segment of flight....remember what happened to that crew over the Atlantic in the ITCZ turbulence...the airplane was in law alternate and they stalled it.

No willie waving required!


For sure I understand that can sometimes enter these conversations and it can be difficult to separate willie wagging from someone speaking from practical experience...........quite often I get my willie slapped by posters accusing me of ego....but somewhere there has to be a benchmark from which ones opinions can be measured ...so I often use my past qualifications to reinforce an opinion on the subject under discussion.

It would not be socially acceptable for me to have to post proof of the size of my willie...but I can post proof of my qualifications without fear of the moderators binning it. :E:E:E.

VP-F__
6th Feb 2014, 01:05
speaking from a fair amount of personal experience flying the Islander in a number of years of continual crosswinds I always used the crab approach up until the last hundred meters or so when I would go wing down. The reason for switching was simple, passenger comfort for most of the approach followed by a controlled touchdown where you want with little unwanted drift at the speed I desired pretty much every time.

Forgetting demonstrated limits on the aircraft this always means that ahead of touch down you know if the aircraft is handling the crosswind OK and that you are not going to get an undue sideways load on the gear on landing.

If your runway is nice and long then it probably doesn't matter which method you are using............however if it is 300 meters of grass with 20 kts across there is only one method for me.:ok:

Pace
6th Feb 2014, 08:58
VP-F

Yours would not be my chosen way but it obviously works for you and that is important :ok:
Also you have a high wing aircraft which suits that method better.

Pace

Desert185
6th Feb 2014, 10:59
...and the asymmetric power of a wing mounted twin assists in controlling weathervaning during touchdown and rollout.

mad_jock
6th Feb 2014, 12:39
however if it is 300 meters of grass with 20 kts across there is only one method for me.

Land into wind across the runway? :p

IFMU
6th Feb 2014, 13:44
I have landed into the wind across the runway before. It was over 30kts though.
Bryan

India Four Two
6th Feb 2014, 16:55
IFMU,

I had to do that once in a towplane after a downwind cross-country tow with an IAS of 50 kts and a 50kt tailwind.

After landing, I parked on the runway, facing into wind and hoped the glider pilot (non-radio) would see me and look at the windsock. He did. :ok:

piperboy84
6th Feb 2014, 18:24
Quote:
however if it is 300 meters of grass with 20 kts across there is only one method for me.
Land into wind across the runway?

That's exactly what I do right up to 90 degrees across the runway, it's a blast pulling It up in a 150 feet right before the side fence

Maoraigh1
6th Feb 2014, 20:39
FAA on Crosswind take-off and landing.
Y14cTcn-99I

IFMU
6th Feb 2014, 21:17
My cross the runway landing was in a Schweizer 2-33. There were some small cells in the area and the lift was good. One of the small ones got large at a rate which was hard to comprehend. It was a "good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement" moment. I had a hard time getting down at redline and dive brakes out until I was able to fly out of the lift. I thought it would be fine once I was on downwind but then I realized the gust front from the storm had set up a major crosswind. I had to fly clean, 70MPH until I crossed the side threshold of the field in order to penetrate. I landed on the taxiway to the hangar, the crew grabbed us before we stopped and shoved us in the hangar before we even unstrapped.

Often when towing there (Harris Hill) the crosswind would have us at such an extreme crab on final that it was discouraging. It always seemed better near the ground.
Bryan

foxmoth
6th Feb 2014, 21:27
Interesting that even the FAA is advising what I would say is the consensus here - wing down on landing even if your approach has been crab, so to me NOT the true crab landing which is crab/kick straight and touch wings level before the drift gets chance to take you. Sorry Pace, even the FAA are against you!!

Chuck Ellsworth
6th Feb 2014, 21:48
Judging from the advice to transition from the crabbed approach to a side slip to correct for drift before the flair that video was intended for ab-initio training.

abgd
6th Feb 2014, 22:48
The water-skiing pilots I've heard of coming to grief have all been flying tricycle aircraft, where it's frankly obviously not a great idea. Have there been lots of conventional gear accidents also?

I have seen videos of bush aircraft waterskiing onto spits and the like, so there does seem to be some genuine utility to the technique though it's not something I personally hanker to learn.

Pace
6th Feb 2014, 23:02
I would like to see the FAA recommendation to start with a crab and then change to wing down / X control ? Or even suggesting wing down over crab?

Pace

Flyingmac
7th Feb 2014, 11:04
A bit more modern than the FAA clip, but essentially the same advice.

Faulty Approaches: Crosswind Considerations - YouTube

Armchairflyer
7th Feb 2014, 12:32
AFAIR one book I once read on the subject ("Takeoffs and landings" by Leighton Collins) advocates the crab (or rather just de-crabbing before touchdown) without much wing-lowering even for smaller aircraft without large engine pods, arguing that the crab is more comfortable to maintain and adjust during short final, the wind mostly changes near the surface anyway, so wing-low means more last-second-adjustments, unless the plane keeps floating no significant drift will develop after straigthening it with rudder and that two gear struts handle the impact of landing better than one.

Edit: referring to the video above, not sure about the usefulness of illustrating crosswind landings with PC sims. Whether MSFS or X-Plane, this is one aspect where they perform very poorly IMHO, especially concerning ground friction.

Pace
7th Feb 2014, 12:51
Again all high wing or tail dragger examples. I used to own a quarter share in a mooney aircraft with long wings and short undercarriage. lets see an example in one of these clips with an aircraft like that.

as stated if a pilot is sitting 6 feet up on a windy day pulling back for the chairmans landing while the runway slides sideways it his technique which is wrong and he is not carrying out a proper crab landing.
Ok even the best will be picked up on occasion but then they should smoothly and instinctively lower the wing and squeeze in rudder to adjust for that situation changing from one technique to another in smooth flowing and may i add confident control inputs.

maybe the FAA new advice is more reflective of the new breed of pilot training covering a wide span of abilities some who are more passengers to their landing on a wing and a prayer rather than being in full control regardless of conditions of the aircraft?

As stated if you are competent in all manner of landings in all conditions and choose the slip to suit you and your aircraft I have no problems with that at all.
if a technique is used to cover up shortfalls in handling techniques then that would worry me.
I noted in the video a number of references were made to low time inexperienced pilots being recommended to use the wing down method until they become more experienced.

Flying a small jet and speeds become more critical with a larger variation of speed on the approach. Normally selection of different degree of flap and undercarriage down the approach brings the speed back to VREF with a fairly constant N1 setting (more relevant to jet engines with spool times)
Change from a crab to wing low at say 300 feet and you are surely bringing in another element of drag which will de stabilise the approach without further thrust adjustment.

Pace

sapco2
7th Feb 2014, 14:06
This has turned out to be an excellent training thread and a picture is always worth a thousand words - thanks to flyingmac.

When all is said and done the message should be "let's make flying safer" so obtaining a good knowledge and understanding of all three methods is definitely the way to go. This thread has provoked a lot of interesting discussion both on line but also amongst professional colleagues and for that, I have really enjoyed the read.

Chuck Ellsworth
7th Feb 2014, 15:42
In that video they state that the crabbed approach is a factor of using thrust....

.....then obviously you can not perform a crabbed approach flying a glider.

sapco2
7th Feb 2014, 16:31
Can you expand on that statement Chuck?

vihai
7th Feb 2014, 16:57
.....then obviously you can not perform a crabbed approach flying a glider.

Oh sorry, I will stop immediately doing such an impossible thing :)

Chuck Ellsworth
7th Feb 2014, 16:59
Can you expand on that statement Chuck?

The person in the video said...

" to align with the runway the crab method relies on thrust. "

My understanding of thrust is that it is a force produced by an engine of some type that either applies the force by pushing or pulling.

Therefore in that a glider has no engine it does not have the use of thrust available.

You of course will have to give me some slack in my understanding the physics of flight as I am not a well educated bloke working for a university teaching people how to fly.

Pace
7th Feb 2014, 18:03
Chuck

Ok we have a. New term ;) first kicking straight and now thrust ! Which I presume indicates leg thrust ? Also not right can we have squeeze in regards to the rudder or maybe caress it straight ;)

Pace

sapco2
7th Feb 2014, 18:44
I would also be interested to know why commentator explained it in such terms. Maybe someone a little smarter than us can explain that one Chuck. Nevertheless he has put together an extremely useful video which should help any student pilot or PPL holder struggling with their crosswind landing technique.

Happy landings everyone!

Chuck Ellsworth
7th Feb 2014, 18:59
I would also be interested to know why commentator explained it in such terms.

My best guess is the commentator did not understand the subject he was commenting on or that so called university do not proof read their material.

Either way it does not instill confidence in these training institutions as far as I am concerned.

On a side note.....

..there was a time when I owned a flight school, after about six years of dealing with the bureaucracy that supplied my flight instructors I had a very simple decision to make.

Get a frontal lobotomy so I could think like them or get rid of the school...

As time passes I am sure glad I sold it because I see things have gone further down hill and I would now need a complete brain removal to fit in their world.

sapco2
7th Feb 2014, 19:46
Yep teaching methodology may have evolved but lets face it the basic physics/aerodynamics remain the same... Fact is, in spite of the questionable terminology his message was understood and his diagrams made everything crystal clear!

Maoraigh1
7th Feb 2014, 20:35
I used to own a quarter share in a mooney aircraft with long wings and short undercarriage. lets see an example in one of these clips with an aircraft like that.

I use wing down in a Jodel DR1050. Landing in a turbulent, gusting crosswind about 90 degrees to the runway - not a stable approach. Cockpit view. It does have wing outer sections angled up though.

Longside - YouTube

Flyingmac
7th Feb 2014, 21:15
The Mooney has quite a marked dihedral. To scrape a wingtip you'd have more bank angle than the rudder could handle. I know most of them are only demonstrated to 11kts, but the aircraft can cope with much more than that.
Wing down. You'd have to be seriously pushing the aircraft's limits, (not the pilot's), to scrape a wingtip.

The500man
8th Feb 2014, 14:23
The faulty approach video was a typically crap American if-I-say-it-loud-enough-it must-be-true type video. I don't agree there are three methods. There are only two as far as I can see. If you switch between them then you are using the other method surely, and not a third.

I don't fly gliders but I would think they are effectively using a component of gravity as thrust. Or maybe the pilot repeatedly breathes in deeply and then blows out to one side!

Chuck Ellsworth
8th Feb 2014, 15:47
The faulty approach video was a typically crap American if-I-say-it-loud-enough-it must-be-true type video.

These companies are interested in making money...period.

Much like listening to politicians one has to dig deep to find the truth when these schools put their trained seals on tape explaining anything.

We can not blame the instructors because learned ignorance will in their minds be reality.

Why have laws of flight and not understand them?

sapco2
8th Feb 2014, 16:14
Well there is certainly no harm in digging deep Chuck. We are now onto 11 pages of debate yet the first posts to even attempt an explanation are #195 and #201. I looked at your profile and its clear you have a wealth of experience to offer and bearing in mind this is a private pilots forum, why not clearly explain your method to help them.

Great debate by the way!

Chuck Ellsworth
8th Feb 2014, 16:44
Well there is certainly no harm in digging deep Chuck. We are now onto 11 pages of debate yet the first posts to even attempt an explanation are #195 and #201. I looked at your profile and its clear you have a wealth of experience to offer and bearing in mind this is a private pilots forum, why not clearly explain your method to help them.

Obviously this subject has garnered much interest as shown by how long it has gone on.

It would be self defeating for me to try and dissect every comment made here and make it look like my way is the only way.

Remember I post using my real name and therefore before I offer my suggestions I try and make sure what I am suggesting is not to badly flawed.

So.....in #195 I do not teach the method that is given at 3:45 minutes into the video. I crab to the flare and depending on the airplane I am flying my use of slip at or just after the flare will determine how much cross controls I will need to keep the airplane stable into the touch down and the roll out portion of the landing.

By the time my students got to the landing part of learning to fly they clearly understood the basics of flight...Attitudes and movements.

And I do use some American exercises early in the training such as turns around a point on windy days and pylon eights on windy days.

Three Thousand Rule
8th Feb 2014, 16:54
So.....in #195 I do not teach the method that is given at 3:45 minutes into the video. I crab to the flare and depending on the airplane I am flying my use of slip at or just after the flare will determine how much cross controls I will need to keep the airplane stable into the touch down and the roll out portion of the landing.My instructor taught me exactly this way, so I guess he agreed with you :)

sapco2
8th Feb 2014, 16:59
So exactly as expected, you do use cross controls Chuck, yet you have enough expertise to leave the cross controlling part until late in the flare right?

Chuck Ellsworth
8th Feb 2014, 17:15
My instructor taught me exactly thus way, so I guess he agreed with you

Pilots will often argue over different methods of controlling an airplane based on what they were taught...sometimes what they were taught is not always the best method to get the job done.....

......I started this thread so I am comfortable defending my method of flying the approach, flare and landing.

Lets go back in time and have a look at why we flew the way we did.

For years I flew DC3's on scheduled airline routes from northern Ontario into the arctic under the IFR rules of the time ( 1960's / 1970's ) , most of the northern landing sites in the winter were ice strips and for runway edge lights they set out flare pots which were containers with toilet paper rolls soaked in heating fuel oil.

For navigation we relied on the ADF and if we could get on top we used the astro compass for accurate heading information.

The approaches were flown using a NDB at almost all sites and our landing visibility limits were 400 feet ceiling and 1 mile vis......which could vary wildly during the approach especially if there was blowing snow at the surface.

Now just imagine the work load during the approach, why would we want to do it with crossed controls???

Flying in the Arctic we had simple rules such as don't overload yourself during critical phases of flight and don't eat the yellow snow. :E

So exactly as expected, you do use cross controls Chuck, yet you have enough expertise to leave the cross controlling part until late in the flare right?

Yes.

And taking into consideration that the above use of the flight controls is not black magic I am a firm believer in teaching new pilots how to comfortably perform these basic maneuvers right from the start.

Teach it right the first time always trumps trying to re-teach it. :ok:

sapco2
8th Feb 2014, 17:34
Chuck, your credentials are already established.
You're a 25,000 hour pilot and I have a mere 15,000 hours but the fact is, some of your readers/followers on this forum will have less than 250 hours.

We are both experienced instructors and I am now really intrigued to know:

What training criteria do you apply in teaching your students cross controlling during those critical seconds before touchdown? How do you explain managing drift in the flare? What practise do you give them?

Chuck Ellsworth
8th Feb 2014, 17:44
What training criteria do you apply in teaching your students cross controlling during those critical seconds before touchdown?


I teach them to use whatever control inputs that are needed based on the visual picture of the airplanes path at the moment.


How do you explain managing drift in the flare?

After the airplane is yawed to track the center line you manage drift by slipping into wind....the shorter the hold off after the flare the less need for side slip.

What practise do you give them?

I do not proceed to the next exercise until they master the exercise being learned.

As a side note:

When teaching a nose wheel only pilot how to fly a tail wheel airplane they do not get to fly until they can comfortably control the airplane on the runway with the tail in the air...stop and go....reverse runway use when able.

You're a 25,000 hour pilot

I passed that number some decades ago. :):)

sapco2
8th Feb 2014, 17:52
So they've got 2 seconds or less to get their act together in the flare right?

Any value whatsoever in upper air-work? If not why not?

Chuck Ellsworth
8th Feb 2014, 18:15
So they've got 2 seconds or less to get their act together in the flare right?

Yes that is quite possible.....but they will have a fair idea of what drift trend to expect if they are taught situational awareness.

Time is an interesting subject when examined in the learning to fly context...two seconds can be forever sometimes... :ok: :O :ok:


Any value whatsoever in upper air-work? If not why not?

Yes upper air-work will teach them control inputs and rate of change for each input.

However the art of directional control during the approach and landing is best taught actually doing it in various wind conditions.

Three Thousand Rule
8th Feb 2014, 19:01
Very interesting to read the dialogue of 40-50,000 hours of flying - wow.

I've a fraction of that and you guys have probably forgotten more about flying than I'll ever learn.

The crab technique is the one thing I still do just as I was taught in 1993, keep the crab on into the flare and then when you feel the sink, smartly remove it with the rudder.

I have only flown a relatively small amount of trikes, nothing complicated or hot, but it has served me well in all of them.

IIRC, my instructor was much more concerned that I recognise the sink and remove the crab smartly, than worry about drift, but I guess that fits with Chuck's comment about the later you correct, the less you need to worry about drift.

I know how to do a wing down approach (and it works just fine), but am so comfortable with the crab that I just stick with it.

Please keep the interesting posts coming gentlemen, it is a privilege to read them.

Chuck, it seems a long time since you brought a very large 4 engined prop into North Weald :D (or was it a Cat - or both?)

sapco2
8th Feb 2014, 19:10
Its been a very interesting discussion Chuck and I am bowing out now.

Suffice it to say, you have finally admitted every good pilot cross controls for landing in cross wind conditions.

Your students are required to get to grips with the technique without much if any practice, whilst the new breed of instructors see value in teaching cross controlling prior to the flare.

Chuck Ellsworth
8th Feb 2014, 20:02
Its been a very interesting discussion Chuck and I am bowing out now.

Thank you, it takes two to produce a good discussion. :O

Suffice it to say, you have finally admitted every good pilot cross controls for landing in cross wind conditions.

Just to fine tune this no where did I deny I do not use a slip in the latter part of the landing process if needed, I clearly started the thread to question why so many pilots side slip way out on final...long before the flare even.....the flare and landing just morphed into the discussion as can be expected.

Your students are required to get to grips with the technique without much if any practice, whilst the new breed of instructors see value in teaching cross controlling prior to the flare.

Yes but seeing as I introduce them to what I consider proper airplane handling techniques from the start they get all the practice they need to become competent as required for safety in every phase of flight.

Great discussion and mostly because everyone is being polite to each other.

Chuck Ellsworth
8th Feb 2014, 20:10
Chuck, it seems a long time since you brought a very large 4 engined prop into North Weald (or was it a Cat - or both?

I brought the Cat there, the one we used in the movie " Below " by Mirimax.

The two DC4"s were brought in for another movie about the Berlin airlift, but so far it has not been made....I hope they do decide to make it before I get to old to fly in it.......I said I would. :ok::ok::ok:

Three Thousand Rule
8th Feb 2014, 20:34
I hope they do decide to make it before I get to old to fly in it.......I said I would. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Me, too. I never met you, but Alan and John spoke of you, which is why I recognise your name on here.

VP-F__
8th Feb 2014, 20:57
a while since my last post but as far as going from crab to wing down on the approach for those that never have yet land wing down do you fly the entire trip wing down...........just asking. More seriously though by kicking off the drift just prior to touch down you end up with crossed controls anyway as you will need to put in some into wind aileron to prevent that wing lifting, secondary effects of controls etc etc

mad_jock
9th Feb 2014, 07:34
I have been waiting to say what I do because I haven't actually thought about it.

Over the last week I have concluded.

Up to about 10 knts x wind I just squeeze it off in the flare.

10-35knts I go to cross controls before the flare at 50-100ft.

The problem looking at others landing is that anything over 10 knts we just get to much drift with squeezing the crab out in the flare. And they end up landing skidding sideways. This is more noticeable landing with braking actions in the low 20's where even below 10knts the plane will skid away from the centreline.

And any float and you disappear off sideways at a rate of knots. Usually with the 20-35knt xwinds its gusting as well and you are picking your gust to touch the wheels down. Sitting with xcontrols you can just hold the attitude then let her drop when you want to.

Been fun thinking about it all. You may well be right chuck but I think I will stay with what works for me. I don't particularly think which way I am going to do it for each landing. The hands and feet just look after it. I suspect its a subconscious decision linked to if I am looking out the side window or not while in the crab :)

Three Thousand Rule
9th Feb 2014, 07:55
Mad Jock's post makes me realise one of the significant differences of flying for pleasure and professionally.

When a pleasure pilot, we can choose not to go with a howling cross wind component and I would rather do something else on a day like that.

Thus one of the differences in the skill level of many competent PPLs and competent ATPLs, we don't practice in those challenging conditions.

mad_jock
9th Feb 2014, 09:08
three thousand it depends what the local conditions are like where you fly.

For example where I taught PPL's the winds were reasonable most of the time ie 15-20knts weren't unusual. Thus they didn't know any different. In fact it was the still air days when you had to watch because the students just weren't used to the high ground speeds on touch down and the yaw when they took the power off.

Sending students off solo with 10knt xwind components was normal as was 20knt down the strip.

So there will be PPL's out there who regularly fly in xwinds and it being not so nice. I should imagine any PPL flying at leeds is pretty well practised at dealing with wind sheer and xwinds especially now that they shut the cross runway.

And I much prefer high winds to low viz which is just a pain in the arse but for different reasons. Highwinds to be honest is quite good fun, have to stop myself smiling when the pax can see when we are off loading.

thing
9th Feb 2014, 09:44
I don't particularly think which way I am going to do it for each landing. The hands and feet just look after it.

:D:D I always read these threads with interest and have made the comment before that we make flying sound so complicated sometimes when it's not. Flying is not difficult.

Desert185
9th Feb 2014, 13:26
With experience, anything is easy.

glendalegoon
9th Feb 2014, 13:34
hey chuck

regarding movie about berlin airlift.


I don't know anything about a new movie, but the film: "The Big Lift" was made with Montgomery Clift and Paul Douglas and was made at a time very close to the actual lift.

It is an interesting film (overlook the mushy stuff) and I am sure more accurate than anything that will be made up today with CGI and changing history.

hey thing:


playing a musical instrument is not difficult either. but playing it well IS VERY DIFFICULT and so is flying well.

thing
9th Feb 2014, 14:36
Ah well, you hit on a particular area that I know well there! I'm a professional musician/teacher and I would say playing an instrument is a damn sight harder than flying. I take your point about doing it well etc, but how well do you have to do it? I'm certainly not advocating a slack approach to flying, far from it. My own desire to be good at something makes me critical of my own flying and the desire to do it better, but if you play a bum note every man and his dog will know, if you touch down 20 ft further than you intended it may give you a 'bugger' moment but no one else will be the wiser.

Maoraigh1
9th Feb 2014, 17:01
and I would say playing an instrument is a damn sight harder than flying.

Many years ago I tried to learn to play two musical instruments. Although I had no talent for either, I never had any worries about damaging them when playing without an instructor.
(The danger was when someone else was within earshot.:E)

Pace
14th Feb 2014, 08:20
Wednesday this week we had hurricane conditions in the Uk with winds recorded at 108 mph in parts of the Uk.
I was flying back from Germany early evening and landed at a northern airport in winds 47 gusting 70 plus kts.
Luckily for me the winds were only 10 to 20 degrees off but far worse than the landing was the approach.
At one point I was holding 170 kts down the approach (crabbing) and the speed shot from 170 down to 120 kts :( exceptional conditions and not conditions that a PPL would be up in!
There was a great picture of a high wing passenger turbo prop landing at Manchester wing down with the wing inches from
Striking the runway!
We have discussed the landing bit but not what can be equally challenging and that is the approach

Pilot battles to land plane at Manchester Airport in 45mph crosswind | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2557834/Watch-crosswind-Pilot-battles-land-passenger-plane-Manchester-Airport-amid-45mph-gusts.html)

These pictures show some horrifying shots of the turboprop landing at Manchester my arrival was at an airport slightly more east than Manchester later in the dark ( he had more crosswind : ) me stronger winds in the evening but more down runway :E

Interesting if you look at the pictures is that he was wings level crabbing at 50 to 70 feet then went wing down albeit in a high wing turboprop

Pace

mad_jock
14th Feb 2014, 09:26
I think he/she went one main gear then nose then the next to be honest pace.

And you can just see his left wing aileron down which seems to me he/she had the controls crossed the wrong way.

So he/she was de-rotated with one main on the ground and lift on the wrong side which the wind got under.

To be honest in those conditions I would have been wing down for about the last 200-150ft.

And the attitude held in the flare power off and in a load voice "get down you whore" stated. Which worked for years landing in Shetland in similar conditions. Which is why for some of us all the fuss about the winds is rather amusing.

I haven't flown a Q400 but mates that have say they are a bit of a sod for tail strikes and it has the handling characteristics of a shopping trolley on the ground rollout. The weather cocking is quite pronounced in x'winds as soon as the mains touch.

Pace
14th Feb 2014, 10:17
MJ

My landing into Don that evening was lively in the Citation :E They were getting gusts up to 80 its, Even the handler got blown off his feet guiding us in.

just through interest what do you add on approach speed wise for such conditions? At one point I was holding 170 KTS and saw that drop to 120 KTS and then shoot right up again with horrendous wing drops
That makes me smile when I hear pilots state they will hold VREF on approach regardless of winds :ugh:

Must have been the worst i have had!! At least my PAX were impressed smooth touchdown more luck than anything else :ok:

Pace

mad_jock
14th Feb 2014, 10:54
I don't add anything on to be honest.

I am doing 160 to 4 anyway.

And normally the approaches are flown at 140knts once configured coming back to Vat plus 10 at 200ft and Vat over the threshold max Vat 112knts and Vref 106.

We are a completely different kettle of fish though as we take 2 seconds to go from flight idle up to 100% torque as we are a direct shaft constant speed engine.

Nothing like flying down the approach with all the control gear creaking. A lot of pilots don't understand there is a time for smooth control inputs and there is a time to grab the bitch by the neck and do what's required.


There are some that like to add the old third of the wind and half the gust up to 15 knots onto the Vref but over the years I have seen some spectacular rapes in the flare with this addition just as good as that Q400. So I gave up doing it years ago and haven't scared myself in fact I seem to have an easy time of it compared to some.

And it always works like that when you working it and meaning to plant her on the ground and get the lift dump out she decides she is going to do a smooth landing.

Icing is a different story I add on speed for that. One of the boys got caught in unforecast freezing rain in Finland and ended up landing with 100% torque on and plus 30 knts in buffet.

Pace
14th Feb 2014, 11:13
Yes agreed on the different speeds down the approach in the Citation 180 then back to 160 until 4 miles then back to roughly 105/110 vREF.
I must admit on that night not coming back to VREF but using 125 Kts and flying it on.
i wanted the control authority and a bit more speed with the down draughts especially on a long runway like DON
But as stated it peached on more by luck ;)
Taxiing and taking turns crosswind while taxiing was hell taking two of us to hold the controls:E

also agree on the icing

Pace

Shaggy Sheep Driver
14th Feb 2014, 11:57
That's the way to do it! Once the drift is removed, keep that into-wind wing down!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/GZK6NK/plane-manchester_2820433b_zps449ad469.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/GZK6NK/media/plane-manchester_2820433b_zps449ad469.jpg.html)

Pace
14th Feb 2014, 12:02
SSD

Looks good but the wing was so close to the runway and this aircraft is high wing what the heck would i do in the citation ?:E

it would have only taken a nasty gust or downdraught for that wing to have moved the extra foot and impacted the runway with disastrous results
as MJ stated the ailerons are the wrong way around for that config and suggest the pilot was trying to stop the wing impacting by lifting it up!
Better in extreme conditions to fly it on something which is rarely taught especially in light GA

Pace

mad_jock
14th Feb 2014, 12:29
For a start I don't think the drift was removed in fact I think they have over cooked it and gone for to much rudder.

The higher wing has the aileron down and the rudder is out on the same side which says to me they didn't have crossed controls.

Which to be honest is a typical error when try to kick off the drift in the flare.

The fact that they haven't kept the nose up either says that the crew were pax as well for a few moments.

At least when you go wing down at 100ft you can basically lock your leg and just deal with drift with slight amounts of roll then you can just concentrate on getting the pitch right. Saves you have to get 3 things right 6 ft off the ground. And all you have to do is increase your rudder input to keep it in a straight line and roll in some more aileron until you hit the stops to stop the wing lift once you lift dump or spoilers are out. Then keep it there to help steering on the tiller until your at taxi speed and gust locks are in.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
14th Feb 2014, 12:31
To be fair, that picture was (I'm told) taken on Tuesday when the surface wind was 60 kts gusting 68! Down the runway!

I think it's just involuntary roll in the turbulence!

FANS
14th Feb 2014, 12:53
If you knew what you were doing before reading this thread, you'd be confused to h@ll after reading it.

mad_jock
14th Feb 2014, 13:01
I think uncontrolled roll, with out controlling the pitch would be a better description.