VOR and NDB intercepting questions

[newbiepilot84]

Hi all,
I am about to commence my instrument rating training soon and I am trying to fully understand the concept of how to intercept outbound and inbound track(NDB) and radial(VOR). Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect.
For example, (VOR)
I am on an outbound radial of 250 and I wish to intercept and inbound radial of 120 (300 from), this means that I have to turn right to intercept the 120 radial, I changed my heading to 040 to intercept, is this correct?
Example 2,
I am on an inbound radial of 100 and wish to intercept an outbound radial of 150, a left is required to intercept.
Example 3,
I am on inbound radial of 180 and wish to intercept inbound radial 160 (340 from), in this case a left turn is required?
I am just having a bit difficulty with visualizing in my head.
Cheers

[OhNoCB]

These things always seem to be confusing (at least to me) because of the terminology used, specifically the radial term.

I find it easier to say for example;

I am tracking 250 from a VOR and I want to track 120 to a VOR. This (to me anyway) clears it up to either use the numbers or visualise a picture in the head which shows that a right turn is required. What heading you turn on to intercept depends on how quickly you want to intercept and your distance from the VOR.

[Going_Manual]

Honestly buddy, prune is not the best place to get sound advice on things like your IR training, I have experienced this first hand, the pilots on here seem to have limited knowledge of real flying skills but the tragedy is they think they actually know it all because they dont know any better! Its worrying! I certainly dont take the site too seriously in terms of real flying tips.

Its more of a place to have a bitch and a moan with a aviation flavour.

For genuine advice ask your CFI or read the many books available.

Sorry buddy but this site was once pretty good back in the 90's but now its just a bitch fest with a load of sim pilots, student pilots & unemployed incompetent pilots

[maxed-out]

I'm going to be a little more constructive than the above poster.

Get RANT XL software before your IR course.

[RTN11]

As above really, a lot of the advice here (including mine) is only worth what you paid for it.

None of the examples you've given are particularly realistic to real life, and the same goes with any textbook trying to explain it, you just need to get out and understand what the instrument is telling you, and use the RMI effectively to help you build a mental picture.

A realistic example is taking off on runway 27, then trying to establish on a specific radial. Any radial, doesn't matter, lets just say 300. All I'm going to do is steer initially in the rough direction, then taking the wind into account I'll stick my heading 20-30 degrees to the relevant side of the radial in order to intercept it, lets say 320. As soon as I then see the VOR needle twitch into life I'm going to steer onto a wind corrected heading to track and hold that radial.

When you are very close to the beacon, you can use a small intercept angle, say 20-30 degrees, but you will need to be quite quick with a lead in turn to establish on the radial, otherwise you shoot through the other side and have to turn back onto it.

When you are far away from the beacon, say 30 miles or more, you may end up using a 60 degree, or in some cases 80-90 degree intercept to get onto the radial, but as you're so far away the needle is less sensitive, so you will wait until the VOR needle is almost in the middle before you start turning to track and hold it.

The whole "I'm on this radial and need to be on that radial" type question doesn't happen in real life line flying, it's only IR instructors trying to prove a point who will throw it at you, and while it does have some training value, it's not the only focus, and you just need to be aware of where the aircraft is in relation the beacon, and visualise how to establish on the radial you desire.

[glendalegoon]

newbiepilot

you are already starting off on the wrong foot. do take the advice and talk to a CFII.

but I will GIVE you this:

words are important. you cannot properly understand VOR or NDB tracking without understanding the words.

A radial only exists FROM a station. You already have the 300 degree radial and the 120 degree radial confused.

You must know the following:

Course

Radial

Bearing

Heading.

They are not interchangeable, so, start at square one.



I think you should also try to understand in your example you are on the 250 degree radial flying outbound away from the station.

You want to track TO or inbound to the station on the 120 degree radial.

Well you are really lost.

But if you meant that you wanted to track inbound to the station on the 300 degree radial, your course will be 120 degrees. BUT YOU WILL BE ON THE 300 degree radial until you pass the station and then and only then could you do anything on the 120 degree radial.

So get your terminology right. Take the time to draw things BY HAND on to a piece of paper.

I won't' even talk about your second example because you need to start at square one.


think of a radial as the name of a road and you can go one of two ways upon it.

and right now I don't want you to leave the parking lot!

PAY for a CFII to draw things out for you.

[biggi]

Im gonna go with the VOR:

(TIPS: If using traditional VOR, center needle with TO flag if going to, or FROM flag if going from).

Follow these steps in a sim/draw on paper:
1) Where are you (what radial)? (CENTER NEEDLE)
2) What is the angular difference between the radial you are ON and the radial you're going to intercept?
3) Is the angular difference less than 90 degrees? Double it. Still less than 90? Use that number; (ex. 30 degrees in between, x 2 = 60). Lets say it is 50 degrees in between; doubble it = 100. Any number above 90, use 90. This only works if it initally is less than 90 degrees in between your location and the radial you are going to intercept (which is also the most likely scenario!!!)

4) (lets use ex. nr 1 with 30 degrees angular difference): Now that you got 2 x 30=60, we'll use that number. Here it comes; Lets say you're on the 180 radial. Your instruction is to intercept the 210 radial to a station. You centered the needle with a TO flag (reading 180 at the bottom). You find it to be 30 degrees in between your current location and the radial you want to intercept. Double it = 60. Now, twist the OBS so that you have 210 at the bottom (TO), look at where the needle deflects (left/right?). Now, add 60 degrees (2x30=60) in the direction of deflection from the COURSE you'll fly (number on the top/reciprocal of radial to intercept)... = this will be the initally heading to fly to put you on a proper course. The heading may be adjusted so to more quickly pick it up (depending on angle of interception/distance).

SA is key in working the VOR's/NDB's.

This always works! Same concept with NDB's (with a twist).

[Fostex]

Agree with maxed-out, get RANT XL, it is excellent and has tutorials which you can then set up in the simulator.

There are also a few iPhone/iPad apps that do similar but without the tutorial parts included in RANT XL.

[RTN11]

Follow these steps in a sim/draw on paper:
1) Where are you (what radial)? (CENTER NEEDLE)
2) What is the angular difference between the radial you are ON and the radial you're going to intercept?
3) Is the angular difference less than 90 degrees? Double it. Still less than 90? Use that number; (ex. 30 degrees in between, x 2 = 60). Lets say it is 50 degrees in between; doubble it = 100. Any number above 90, use 90. This only works if it initally is less than 90 degrees in between your location and the radial you are going to intercept (which is also the most likely scenario!!!)

4) (lets use ex. nr 1 with 30 degrees angular difference): Now that you got 2 x 30=60, we'll use that number. Here it comes; Lets say you're on the 180 radial. Your instruction is to intercept the 210 radial to a station. You centered the needle with a TO flag (reading 180 at the bottom). You find it to be 30 degrees in between your current location and the radial you want to intercept. Double it = 60. Now, twist the OBS so that you have 210 at the bottom (TO), look at where the needle deflects (left/right?). Now, add 60 degrees (2x30=60) in the direction of deflection from the COURSE you'll fly (number on the top/reciprocal of radial to intercept)... = this will be the initally heading to fly to put you on a proper course. The heading may be adjusted so to more quickly pick it up (depending on angle of interception/distance).

A typical example of over complicating something which is very simple.

Who wants to be doing all this maths? doubling things, then doubling them again, then subtract the day of the month, add 5 for mum and go with that.

KISS - Keep It Simple - SUPID.

Just look at the instrument, visualise where you are, and take appropriate steps, try a 30 degree intercept, if that doesn't seem to do much, increase it. If close to the beacon, use common sense and judgement.

This really isn't rocket science guys. :ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0173]

how about downloading the bcft IR training manual from the pplir website (google bcft ir training manual). Then read the appropriate pages relating to your question.........simples!

[Gaylord Fokker]

Maybe try this app for the iphone to practice radial interceptions and holding patterns: VOR Tracker

[sgenie]

Try this - once you cross navaid, follow R250 for 50 seconds, then turn right to intercept R300