Aeros Nottingham prices going up.

[Cenus_]

Anyone here learning at Aeros in notts?

I'm about 15 hours in to my PPL learning in a PA 38. Currently paying £136ph. After the end of feb this is going up to £168ph! I'm looking at other schools in the area specifically sherwood flying club, based also at Nottingham and donair out of east midlands whose prices are more in line with what I'm used to paying.

I do really like the club at Nottingham, everyone is very friendly and professional but that doesn't feel enough to justify th additional expense.

A couple of questions though for anyone on the know:

1) is there something aeros will provide me with that other schools won't i.e. will I get something there to justify the extra £30 an hour?

2) as I'm currently tantalisingly close to going solo am I going to set myself back significantly by switching schools at this time?

I'm really interested in as many views/opinions as possible (not usually a problem here! ;))

[petes1s]

I learned at Sherwood in the 80's and they were good

So flying lessons are a long time ago
Down south at white waltham lessons are £200!

[mad_jock]

you will have to do a few extra hours just so the FI can suss you out before sending you solo. But in theory changing school isn't a big exercise.

I would say stay where you are until going solo.

As for the cost increase I suspect you might find a lot of places going up in price as the EASA changes mean they have quite a bit more admin costs. Linked in as well there may be an increase in the pay for the instructors and also the airfield costs maybe increasing at the same time.

I don't have a clue about school economics these days they won't be making much profit what ever the reasons for the increase.

[mad_jock]

Actually looking at a couple of other PA38 schools the price seems to be the current gong rate with in 5 quid which is easily swallowed by regional differences.

[xrayalpha]

£32 an hour more....... dump the b@stards!!

(After all, another 30 hours at that to get your 45 and you are talking just under £1,000 more.)

Of course, the staff might be friendly and professional because they get paid 1p an hour more than the competition pays, the aircraft might be a little cleaner and "better" maintained than the competition's, and they are about to entrust you with taking up one of the precious aircraft all by yourself!

Perhaps that implies a little bonding and loyalty by their staff.

Personally, flying is like buying food. You get what you pay for and sometimes you pay a little more just to be sure you are getting what you pay for (ie no horse!). In other words, you get the same, but you pay a little extra for the certainty.

Yes, eat cheap ****. It saves you cash, and who cares about longevity. That's for old folks!

But flying..... well, every flying school that competes on price is doomed!

So if you are happy with the other factors, stick with them.

[gooddaysir]

They seem to be charging everyone different prices there at the moment. Im at 10 hours doing circuits in a tomahawk and they charge me £158.80 per hour, and I overheard the bloke on the phone the other day trying to work out whether to charge some old retiree ppl student the 'old truman' prices, or the new aeros prices.


Im sure they'll get it worked out eventually, and the staff and people who work in the café at tollerton are great

[mad_jock]

I suspect anyone charging under 145 an hour is burning there engine fund and setting themselves up for bankruptcy and just getting the cash out of the aircraft.

Sometimes cheap is to cheap.


25 quid for the instructor

57 quid an hour for fuel.

Leaves 63

10 quid an hour on maint

8 quid an hour on engine fund.

leaving 45 ish for school buildings, heating, approvals, insurance, salarys, landing fee's etc etc. And a bit of profit.

[Bob Upanddown]

...... leaving nothing to pay for the financing or leasing of the aircraft. Is that why they are still using sh1tty 40 year old aircraft at many flying schools instead of looking at newer kit?

I saw a comparison in one of the magazines of Avgas price in the US against EU. If you could reduce the cost of Avgas by 50% or more, it would make a huge difference to the cost of flying and learning to fly and might give enough of a profit to clubs to be able to invest in new aircraft.

[mad_jock]

leaving nothing to pay for the financing or leasing of the aircraft. Is that why they are still using sh1tty 40 year old aircraft at many flying schools instead of looking at newer kit?

To be honest there is nothing which really steps up to the mark and can cover all the bases like a C152/150 or PA38. And survive everything that students can throw at them.

It has been tried with Katana's, liberty X's and the new kid on the block which a lot of schools have their fingers crossed about the sports cruiser.

There really isn't anything really to replace these training aircraft with. And if you did and required financing as can be seen by this thread a large majority of your customers would go to the school with the cheaper old kit.
A lot of schools find the same problem with IMC kitted machines, nobody wants to pay for the premium of flying them.

[worldpilot]

I'd look at it from a different perspective.:=

Are you gaining the awareness and confidence that will enable you to attain the proficiency level that you are striving to achieve?:confused:
If that is the case, my advice would be to stay where you are and achieve the goal.

There is no guarantee that prices would remain constant at the other training facilities. And, you will have to start all over again and there is no assurance that you will become comfortable in the other training facility environment.

I went through the same experiencing while training with an FTO, but decided to stay there and accomplished my goal. In retrospect, that was the right decision, even though I spent little more than I budgeted.

WP

[gooddaysir]

jock we should go into business.

[RTN11]

Definitely sounds like they were charging under the market rate before, which isn't sustainable, and have now had to bring their prices more in line to making a profit.

I wouldn't look elsewhere though, at your point in the course it would cause a massive disruption to your training when you really don't need it. If you get on well with the instructor and the aircraft, there really isn't any reason to change, either pay the going rate, or stop now.

The prices are only ever going to go up, and unfortunately most people seem to get their licences then after the two years of the rating never renew as they haven't flown much in that two year period, usually because of the cost. So if you're struggling to afford it now, perhaps have a think about what you're planning to do once you get the licence, and reassess whether you want to complete the PPL at all, could save an awful lot of money.

[gooddaysir]

cencus which instructor do you use?

[Cenus_]

Thanks all for the responses. I don't mind paying the market rate and if that's what it's going to be then that's ok I guess but I can't help but notice that pretty much every other school in the midlands is offering lessons around the £135 mark(with the exception of derby at £145) in either a PA38 or a C150/2. maybe that will all change in the next few months...?

I just don't want it feel like I'm being taken for a ride!

[gooddaysir]

if its any consolation I just paid 180ish for 1.0 in a pa38, so yes the prices are definitely going up.


Depending on where you live derby or Leicester are your other options - don't go for the one at east midlands, you'll just burn the hobbs meter up waiting for 737s and get about 20 mins instruction


it costs what it costs

[mad_jock]

cenus I suspect everyone is going to have to sort their rates out in the next 6 months there is a raft of EASA stuff coming through which involves a lot of manual writing and increased admin burden along with costs of inspections etc.

Tollerton is great for PPL training busy but not to busy and no commercials to fit round.

It might be worth to ask your instructor the reason why the price has gone up. It could be very logical.

The main thing is actually your instructor and if you are getting on with them and you feel you are getting good quality instruction. Any saving you get by moving is very quickly eaten up first by the new instructor getting to know you before solo and then if you have to swap again because you don't liked where you have moved to its the same again.

If you really want to change though stick with them until you go solo and then have a look about finishing the whole lot off over in FL in a couple of weeks.

[worldpilot]

@Jock,

Factoring in the other costs (airline, leaving costs, training costs, etc), is FL still an option these days?

Which facility are you looking at?

WP

[mad_jock]

me none of them with 6k hours under my belt :D

It was just a suggestion I don't know what the price difference is these days if any at all as you point out.

[worldpilot]

Well, your 6k hours is irrelevant for this issue.:=

I was just wondering why you suggested FL as an alternative without the relevant pointers and qualification (e.g. which facilities could be of considerations).

Florida (.e.g Ormond Beach) use to be an alternative in terms of costs, but not any more.:{

WP

[Local Variation]

Depending on where you live derby or Leicester are your other options - don't go for the one at east midlands, you'll just burn the hobbs meter up waiting for 737s and get about 20 mins instruction

I'd like you to substantiate that quote. Whilst we do have to give way to local commercial traffic, your statement is a sweeping exageration.

[taybird]

Depending on where you live derby or Leicester are your other options - don't go for the one at east midlands, you'll just burn the hobbs meter up waiting for 737s and get about 20 mins instruction

Derby's surface is struggling with all this rain at the moment. Another option might be Tatenhill. I have personal experience of training at Leicester, Donair and Tatenhill, and all were good training experiences. The comments above about waiting for commercial traffic at EMA Aare very much dependent on when you fly.

That said, the advice to stay put if you are getting on well, is good advice. Tollerton is as good a place as any to learn and the instructors I know there are a good bunch.

[mad_jock]

Well that number was meant to say I am not really up to speed on the PPL training market schools and costs apart from the couple of schools I am still in touch with way way up north.

And there are a lot of us that were immensely happy when OBA got its approval pulled.

There are still quite a few EASA approved schools left. And its always an option if your local wx is causing issues with the NAV side of things.

I would also say that having a look at Inverness is worth it as well. I never really had to much problems when I taught up there with getting Nav ex's done due to the local microclimate in the Moray Firth

[Big Pistons Forever]

My experience after 28 years of full and part time instruction is the bare hourly cost of the aircraft had the least impact on the total cost of getting the license.

IMO The main cost drivers in descending order of importance are as follows.

1) How good your instructor is

2) How hard you work

3) How busy the airport is (ie average delay waiting for takeoff) and how far away the practice area is

4) The hourly rate of the aircraft

Getting instruction from a keen and efficient instructor and showing up for every lesson really well prepared could easily wipe out a 20/30 pound an hour cost differential.......

[fireflybob]

Surely what matters more than anything else is the quality of instruction.

Do the instructors have the time and inclination to do a proper pre flight brief? Likewise a post flight brief?

Do they decline to take you flying if the weather is not suitable for a meaningful instructional sortie?

Ask yourself these questions before getting too worked up about what you are paying - really there are no short cuts to training a proficient and safe pilot.

[fireflybob]

One more! Ask your (potential) instructor how to recover from a stall.

If he/she says (inter alia) "lower the nose" run for the hills!

[Big Pistons Forever]

One more! Ask your (potential) instructor how to recover from a stall.

If he/she says (inter alia) "lower the nose" run for the hills!

I am confused. What is the instructor supposed to say ?

[gooddaysir]

im no expert but to my knowledge the standard stall recovery is lower the nose, level the wings and add full power

why would an instructor tell you not to lower the nose in the event of a stall?

[mad_jock]

reduce the angle of attack should be the instruction.

[gooddaysir]

lowering the nose does reduce the angle of attack. what other suggestions do you have for reducing the angle of attack?

[flybmi]

Let's bite...

We (should) know that the correct and only way to recover from a stall is to reduce the angle of attack to below the critical / stalling angle of attack.

In all examples trained for in the PPL syllabus the physical action to accomplish this is lowering the nose. The devil's advocate card that I suspect Firefly is going to play is that this would not be the correct recovery action when inverted - in fact, quite the opposite.

However, a degree of common sense and practicality has to be applied. A good thorough stalling brief should be covered for every student and cover in understandable and practical depth the theory behind stalling. A quick SSR brief on the board and then blasting off is not acceptable in my opinion.

Combining the most common situations where an average PPL might need to recover from a stall with the ability of your average PPL there is a good percentage chance that lowering the nose (reducing the angle of attack) will solve the situation. We can argue all day as to whether it is good teaching practice to say 'lower the nose' or 'reduce the angle of attack' (the latter obviously being technically correct.) but a lot of students do struggle with anything over and above clear, concise and simple instructions.

I do, however, believe that spins should be taught in the PPL syllabus, even if only for awareness, and an understanding of the recovery actions imparted. Firefly, out of curiosity, what recovery actions would you teach for a wing drop in a stall?

If we really want to bite we can talk about going inverted or even the recovery actions in some underslung jet aircraft which might involve closing the thrust levers and applying bank to generate a recovery - although it's not directly relevant to Bloggs in their 152.

As instructors we have a duty to transfer working knowledge and and skills to students that they can use in their flying and prevent them from making errors. We do need to be careful how we do this and sometimes being too clever can have an undesired outcome.

[gooddaysir]

in my opinion if you get into a stall while flying inverted then you don't deserve to have a plane licence in fact you don't even deserve to have basic human rights

[mad_jock]

The problem is that if you go for the lower the nose you have missed the vital bit of application of knowledge.

The fact is a large number of pilots including Instructors think and operate in the assumption that the stall speed is one number and it is the speed that matters and nothing else.

The lower then nose from the instructor is a fairly good indicator that they are a chase the needles type of pilot who won't teach you properly how to attitude fly.

[gooddaysir]

'missed the vital bit of application of knowledge'?!!? in that case why is it that in the EFATO section of my check list does it say 'maintain airspeed above stall speed'?


presumably the people who wrote my checklist were all 'needle-chasers' as well are they? lowering the nose unstalls the wing/s and also adds some knots without necessarily losing much height in my experience.


why are people saying that the SSR is wrong? and more importantly implying our instructors don't know what theyre doing?

[RTN11]

'missed the vital bit of application of knowledge'?!!? in that case why is it that in the EFATO section of my check list does it say 'maintain airspeed above stall speed'?


presumably the people who wrote my checklist were all 'needle-chasers' as well are they? lowering the nose unstalls the wing/s and also adds some knots without necessarily losing much height in my experience.


why are people saying that the SSR is wrong? and more importantly implying our instructors don't know what theyre doing?

Yes, from the sounds of it the EFATO section of the check list was written by 'needle chasers'. Is this a school specific checklist, a AFE or Pooleys type, or have you actually checked the POH to see what guidance that offers?

I don't think that anyone is saying that the SSR is wrong, simply that in the early stages of training it is important to emphasise how you recover from a stall. You need to lower the angle of attack of the wing, nothing else matters. In many cases lowering the nose is the action that gives this result, but it is still important for a student to understand how they are recovering from the stall.

There was a load of training bulletins doing the rounds years ago, as a lot of test candidates (particularly on IR) were simply holding an attitude and powering out of an incipient stall situation, without any lowering of the angle of attack. These candidates were poorly taught at the PPL stage.

Lastly, many instructors don't know what they're doing. Many are afraid of stalls themselves, particularly in the PA38 due to all the ridiculous horror stories, so will not give a student a decent chance to experience slow flight and understand it's dangers, and how to effectively recover with minimum height loss.

[worldpilot]

Lowering the nose does not prevent you from stalling though.:=

The aircraft wings must be maneuvered into a position (proper angle of attack) to act as a downward deflector of air and generate lift. If that's not the case, the aircraft will fall out the sky and that's what you want to prevent in the first place.

I understand that many factors manifest in such a flight envelope, but the key is the relation of the wings with the air in terms of lift generation.

WP

[DeeCee]

Great advice from some of you. The next time I hear the stall warner I will hit 'pause' and log on to PPrune to check through what everyone suggests.

The next time I'm flying a real aeroplane I'll just lower the nose........

Meanwhile, going back to the original question; the latest price that you have been quoted is competitive with some of the schools that I know in the south. I'd stay with it if I were you rather than going through a new experience.

Good luck!

[worldpilot]

Cenus,

15 hours into flight training, you should be soloing by now.

Make sure you are getting there though. Flying is very difficult to learn and you need to understand what you are dealing with.

Getting a pilot licence is one thing, but maintaining the right proficiency level is another thing. The accident records (at least in GA environment) proves this.

I know a number of pilots who have attained a pilot licence and are only focused on going through a flight review to stay current. That's a risky undertaking and a waste of resources.

You can only reduce your risk profile by flying experience, and that is very costly.

WP

[Big Pistons Forever]

The lower then nose from the instructor is a fairly good indicator that they are a chase the needles type of pilot who won't teach you properly how to attitude fly.

Well I teach aerobatics and routinely fly several high performance warbirds, One with a Vne of 340 kts and I am pretty sure that I am not a "chase the needles type of pilot".

I also do the occasional PPL. My students are not a "chase the needles type of pilot" for the simple reason that for a good part of the pre solo flying the airspeed indicator will be covered up with a post it note.:ok:

I spend a lot of time on the recognition of slow flight and impending stalls and effective recovery regardless of what the airplane is doing. Central to that is teaching them to lower the nose, apply full power and control yaw.

And yes I tell them to "lower the nose" because that is should be the first automatic and instinctive reaction to the airplane entering a stall.

Sorry for the thread drift but the suggestion that somebody should "run for the hills" because an instructor says "lower the nose" instead of "reduce the AOA" is just plain silly.

[A and C]

One of the reasons for the price increase is the rise in the price of parts with the likes of Cessna charging £ 900 for six small pressed metal rudder fittings and the fall in quality of engine parts to the point at which engines now make only 50% of TBO.

[DeeCee]

"15 hours into flight training, you should be soloing by now"

Never listen to this type of comment. I work at an Aero Club and I can assure you that people go solo at different stages, BUT, only when they are ready. This comment is very unhelpful.

[mad_jock]

I am not disputing that BPF once the student gets the point about AoA you can say what you like. During the first 20 hours you should say what your actually doing then they might have a clue.

[worldpilot]

That's right, "SHOULD".

Otherwise, he/she might be wasting money accumulating flight time with an instructor, without getting it right.

With a good home work and use of the flight simulator, you could accelerate the flight training and optimize the cost structure.

WP

[Big Pistons Forever]

900 EX

The original poster is a presolo PPL student. Please describe a situation where during PPl training you would stall the airplane by lowering the nose ?

For that matter describe any plausible scenario where this scenario could occur in a typical club SEP ?

[Maoraigh1]

in my opinion if you get into a stall while flying inverted then you don't deserve to have a plane licence in fact you don't even deserve to have basic human rights
Why? I did that, accidentally, with an instructor on aerobatics at Las Vegas.
The Zlin flipped 180 before I caught it, and I was flying normal way up, wondering what had happened.

[Big Pistons Forever]

An agressive stall/spin recovery.

I can think of no possible scenario where pitching nose down during a stall/spin recovery, aggressive or not will cause the aircraft to stall.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am not disputing that BPF once the student gets the point about AoA you can say what you like. During the first 20 hours you should say what your actually doing then they might have a clue.

I do not agree. Theory should be taught on the ground, actions should be taught in the air. The concept of AoA and its role in the stall and stall recovery is theory. What you need to do in the airplane is lower the nose in order to unstall the aircraft therefor that is what I believe instructors should be telling presolo students when teaching ex 12.

Why should the stall be any different then all the other practical aspect of presolo ab intitio training. For example when you want the student to increase power do you tell them to "open the carburetor throttle valve" or "push the throttle in" ?

[Cows getting bigger]

Common terminology is 'advance the throttle' :)

[mad_jock]

Well personally i never say lower the nose, be it with low hours or thousands being instructed.

Maybe comes from my driving heavy goods vehicle instructor instructor course for the uk army.

I said straight ahead at the round about and thats what happened 27 tons of off road recovery lorry straight ahead over the top of the round about.

I am pretty sure if the stall warner went off in a steep turn with a RAF QFI instructor flying and you had instructed lower the nose all you would get is a boot full of rudder to pull the nose towards the ground.

And I use advance the ..... power levers/rpms or throttle on sep types

[RTN11]

I am pretty sure if the stall warner went off in a steep turn with a RAF QFI instructor flying and you had instructed lower the nose all you would get is a boot full of rudder to pull the nose towards the ground.

This is what a few people here seem to be missing. Saying "lower the angle of attack" isn't just classroom based theory, it's what you need to do to recover from the stall.

In a busy aircraft working in three dimensions, you need to be clear and concise with your instructions. Saying lower the nose is all well and good, but lower relative to what? Mad jock has given the example of a steep turn, lower relative to the horizon would be achieved by yaw, and would not help lowering the angle of attack to get you out of a stall.

[Cows getting bigger]

.... and the standard terminology for reducing AoA is "centrally forward".

Anyway, back to pricing. I think many of us will be increasing prices in the coming weeks. Most have been absorbing the pain for the last few years but with growth on the horizon.........

[Cenus_]

Thank you all once again for the comments, you've certainly given me a lot to think about! I think I'm going to stick to where I am at the minute but maybe visit one or two of the other clubs in the area anyway (can't hurt to just have a nose about). I really don't want to do anything to knock me off course at the minute.

Just FYI, before my first lesson on stalling I was give a full 1 hour brief on the theory of the stall. Learned about (amongst other things) the AOA, lift coefficient, lift formula as well as the signs of approaching and developed stall etc. When out on the lesson the recovery instruction was reduce AOA with control column centrally forward.

To answer an earlier questions my instructor at Tollerton was Ben but unfortunately he moved on just before Xmas. I'm still getting to know the new chap but all seems good so far.

[strollerweb]

I would avoid Donair they don't seem to know what they are doing with the EASA changes and do not have an examiner on hand to assist.

[Sir George Cayley]

Gamston. There's a school there. Worth a gander?

SGC

[GBEBZ]

The CAA issued a safety notice about this, just this month!

http://f.cl.ly/items/3w2v3u3L1w1p1P1M0S1R/Screen%20Shot%202014-03-19%20at%2023.55.31.png

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Safety%20Notice%202014_003v2.pdf

[Big Pistons Forever]

I guess I am a bad instructor because all of my students get sent on their first solo with a firm understanding on how to recognize an impending stall and take immediate action by lowering the nose if they get into one.

They will however be blissfully unaware of the effects of compressability, reduced thrust at high altitudes, stalls with the autopilot engaged and the correct response to a stick pusher activation :rolleyes:

[A and C]

A lot of interesting stuff above but most of it nothing whatsoever to do with the original subject of the thread.

It seems to reflect the fact that most of the inhabitants of GA would much rather head off in some theoretical direction rather than address the day to day problems such as why a flying club has to hike the price so much.

A bit like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic !