Alcohol Dependence Syndrome

[glengarry]

Does anyone have any experience (first hand or otherwise!) they would be willing to share about whether it's possible to rebuild a flying career following a diagnosis of ADS, successful treatment and re-certification?

I'm sure the answer varies with the individual but would like to try to get a feel for what may (or may not) be possible.

Thanks.

[cavortingcheetah]

On my weavy way between the Rivoli Bar and the Palm Court at the Ritz in London when the question caught my eye on the old iPad There's the problem with the thing really, the name of the beast. In the old days, if you suffered from the drink, you were called an alcoholic or even a dipsomaniac and alcoholism was regarded as a disease. Then along came the World Health Organization in 1979 and decided that alcoholics were no such things but instead and in reality were afflicted with Alcohol Dependence Syndrome (ADS). Now everyone knows that a disease can be cured but no one is quite sure whether a syndrome can be treated successfully or whether it will just recur. So the answer to the question, as we're trolling along in an otherwise way, is that, with so many pilots unemployed, why should an employer knowingly land himself with an asymptomatic pilot suffering from a syndrome? If, on the other hand, the aviator were a remitted alcoholic, then the situation might honestly be brighter for that state of equilibrium is a known quantity and many pilots have faced the problem with courage and fortitude. This sort of question has been raised on this website before. There have been some very noble responses on the topic of aviating while dreaming of a dry martini. Which reminds me, there's a special on rum tea and fruit cake with almond topping here at The Ritz Hotel this afternoon.

[Ulster]

whether it's possible to rebuild a flying career following a diagnosis of ADS, successful treatment and re-certification ?

The short answer to that question is "yes" . . . . . I've known several over many years, some of whom initially appeared pretty hopeless ! It's also a very common problem, as is evidenced by the fact that there is a separate "Alcohol Clinic" held fairly regularly at the hallowed Belgrano !

As our friend CC eloquently and humorously reminds us, the ramifications of this "condition", nay, even its name, have varied quite considerably over the years. So, too, has the level of stigma attached.

Treatment and support is pretty good nowadays, and my experience is that MOST class 1 holders get their medical back again, and keep it after the initial fall from grace. Needless to say, it may be a very different story actually getting a flying job back. If an application form is filled in truthfully, and the HR department spots the word "alcohol" in the history . . . . . . . . . well, need I say more ! But good luck anyway ! :ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

If you've been through the tender hands of the Belgrano Booze Boys might you not have a multi crew restriction on your license? That would act as a little flag if anyone ever bothered to notice it at an airline inquisitorial panel.
An eye tinged with the shades of yellow Chartreuse regards he who claims to have been successfully treated for alcoholism. No alcoholic I'ver ever known who has given up the booze would claim to have been successfully treated, for that implies that a return to the bottle, even in moderation, is a perfectly fine option. The one who wishes to be in recovery knows full well that there's more of a battle in one day at a time than carpe diem ever intended.

[Ulster]

If you've been through the tender hands of the Belgrano Booze Boys might you not have a multi crew restriction on your license?

CC - you are absolutely correct. On first being returned to class 1 fitness after an ethanol-fuelled fall from grace the medical certificate will definitely carry the multi-crew limitation ( OML ). A combination of good behaviour, abstinence, clinic reviews and satisfactory blood tests will result in the OML being removed; in my experience this is usually after about two to three years. So it won't necessarily be apparent to future employers for ever and ever after !

By the way, it's not right to refer to the "Booze Boys" at the Belgrano ! The consultant who runs the alcohol clinic there is a very attractive lady, as indeed is the CAA's present Chief Medical Officer ! Ladies rule ! :ok:

[Phororhacos]

Just in case anyone is looking, the UK CAA medical department current guidance on this is here...

Psychiatry Guidance Material | Medical | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2499&pagetype=90&pageid=13853#AlcSub)

and here

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2499/Alcohol%20and%20Substance%20Misuse%20FC.pdf

Doesn't really answer OP's question about whether companies will choose to employ or not though once re-certified.

[Private jet]

I dont have any direct experience, but i was told once that the important point to remember for anyone with alcohol "issues" is if they go to their employer and "fess up" before they get caught out or fall down on the job then the employer is duty bound by employment legislation (UK possibly Euro) to allow that employee to go on sick leave, get treatment, and within a reasonable time period, if successful, return to work. i.e it should be treated like any other illness and is not automatically a case for dismissal or termination of employment.
I'm not 100% certain of it, it just came up in conversation one time, but i'm sure the more informed on these matters can comment.

[cavortingcheetah]

Ladies rule in alcohol?
Rum Babas!

[glengarry]

Thanks for the replies.

the important point to remember for anyone with alcohol "issues" is if they go to their employer and "fess up" before they get caught out or fall down on the job Aye, there's the rub for a disease/syndrome/condition that has "denial" as one of its major symptoms.

[gingernut]

It's easy to make a joke out of the matter, but I'm guessing it's a major problem in "high stress" environments.

Bottom line is that this is a chronic disease, without an obvious "cure" but have witnessed lots of people coming out ok at the other end :)

[homonculus]

Denial is the key word. My wife died of alcoholism so I am well aware of how insidious the disease can be. Sufferers seem to be able to hide it from even close friends let alone employees for so long. It destroys families let alone individuals and the health service seems unable to do anything if the individual lacks insight and refuses help.

But I am always surprised Gingernut when people tell me how many alcoholics exist. We see ridiculous figures bandied around about the number of NHS admissions from alcoholism which I simply don't see. Some of my friends do indeed drink, and on occasions binge, but there is a massive gulf between those who drink heavily but can stop, can carry out a job and lead a normal family life and those at are truly addicted.

[cavortingcheetah]

(Some of my friends do indeed drink, and on occasions binge, but there is a massive gulf between those who drink heavily but can stop, can carry out a job and lead a normal family life and those at are truly addicted.)

That's a sentence upon which any self respecting alcoholic would seize with trembling fingers of delight as proof that he (or she perhaps) was not an alcoholic. It quite takes one's breath away.

[Ulster]

It quite takes one's breath away

Not only breath ! The sentence to which that refers would probably take away a considerable proportion of one's Liver Functions too ! :ugh:

[homonculus]

Cavorting cheetah

I am no longer allowed to post as a professional but did put up this rather personal post as I hoped my insight as a relative of an alcoholic would be helpful. I am well aware from reading your posts that they tend to be insensitive in the extreme. This one is no exception.

If you have personal experience of alcoholism I am sure we would all welcome your input, but otherwise I for one don't.

An alcoholic is somebody who does more than drink heavily. Their entire life is ruled by alcohol. They cannot function in the morning until they have had several drinks. They tend to mislead and deceive causing massive harm to those around them. Many alcoholics rapidly obtain a criminal record. Almost any job would be unsafe. Their life expectancy is poor.

Heavy drinking on the other hand may only be for some periods in ones life - in my day the majority of medical students drank perhaps ten pints a night most nights but all as far as I know cut back to a level where they could legally drive 24/7 as soon as they qualified. They drink such that they have minimal blood alcohol levels at work although I accept some take risks with driving. They do not have criminal records and in general have a normal life expectancy and family relationships.

Whether heavy drinking is bad for you isn't the issue. It isn't a mental health issue which alcoholism certainly is. That IMHO is the issue with returning to flying and the mountain any alcoholic pilot has to climb and the question the OP put.

[cavortingcheetah]

Hi homonculus,

Just to digress into the realms of seriousness for a moment or two, may I tender my sympathies at your loss and the pain and distress it has so obviously caused.
You may rest assured that my personal experience in dealing with alcoholics would be sufficient to meet any of your minimum requirements for participation in these pickled plum pages.

Perhaps as an hypothesis might one say that alcohol, alcoholism and alcoholics have a similar relationship to bowel cancer and adenomatous polyps. Nearly all bowel cancers start from adenomas but not all adenomas are cancerous? Coincidental too is that denial in seeking treatment for the symptoms of bowel cancer leads to such early morbidity. So much distress could be avoided by symptomatic recognition at an early stage of the development of the disease.

I think, by the way, that what the op wanted to know was whether an employer would discriminate against him for having suffered from ADS. That's somewhat distinct as having received treatment as an alcoholic.
That of course presumes that the op isn't a troll in the first place. (Here I extend apologies to the op if he is not a flesh eating nocturnal giant cave dweller.)

In parting then and with previously expressed sympathies,
To your very good and I hope continued health,
Toodle Pip.
cc

[MrSnuggles]

Quote from homonculus.

Heavy drinking on the other hand may only be for some periods in ones life - in my day the majority of medical students drank perhaps ten pints a night most nights but all as far as I know cut back to a level where they could legally drive 24/7 as soon as they qualified. They drink such that they have minimal blood alcohol levels at work although I accept some take risks with driving.

I am scared to know that medical personnel have even "minimal blood alcohol levels". I would prefer them to have "no blood alcohol levels".

Agreed that normal digestion produces a miniscule amount of ethanol as a byproduct, but anything more than that when operating - be it heavy machinery of any kind or on any living person anywhere - would make me cringe.

I know that during university studies I could get totally wasted and black out on a Tuesday but since my university days I take stuff seriously and never drink before a work day. Doing so would be incomprehensibly irresponsible. And I am just working in front of the computer, with no responsibility over human life at all.

I find it mind boggling that any responsible professional with lives in their hands would consider doing things under the influence. Please, stop that.

Rant over. Continue thread as before.

[MrSnuggles]

cavortingcheetah

I find your posts very funny. Thank you for brightening this thread.

[Ulster]

cavortingcheetah

I find your posts very funny. Thank you for brightening this thread

As, indeed, we all do ! See my comment in post # 3, second para ! :ok:

[homonculus]

As someone totally unqualified in ADS I can see the attraction of a comparison with polyps and bowel cancer but beg to differ. Normal drinking, even of large amounts, in the absence of dependency or mental illness does not necessarily lead to ADS

I have been fortunate to subsequently meet and been confided in by many sufferers on a personal level. Many were not previously heavy drinkers. Most cases had an identifiable trigger such as a personal tragedy or stress event, and others had pre existing mental health problems. It seems to me that this is a mental illness with alcohol involved not alcohol leading to illness.

That is why I as an employer would have such difficulty accepting an employee with this history even though I do have employees with other issues in the past.

My experience is that the medical profession has very little insight into this disease which further hinders recovery. I hope that by a more frank discussion we can educate, bring it into the open, and perhaps make people realise it isn't an individual's fault for drinking in the past

[gingernut]

It's sometimes a question about "labeling."

I guess the point I'm trying to get across (unsuccessfully), is that we need to take "victim blaming" out of the equation.:\

[Pace]

There is an easy solution!
I saw a programme on the Japanese rail network. Every time the train drivers signed in for work they had to blow into an Alcohol detector.

Surely the same could happen with pilots? it does not matter whether you are dry, an alcoholic, or recovered alcoholic.

If you don't pass the test you don't climb into the aircraft.

Simple really follow the rail network system at least you will be clean for the duration of the flight!
it would be quite easy passing airside through security for crews to blow into such a device as used on the railway system in Japan.
That only took less than a minute showing they were clear of Alcohol and fit to drive the trains.

Then it would not matter if the pilot had a drink problem as it would eliminate any pilot taking the controls of an aircraft while still under the influence and eliminate any worries for airlines employing recovered alcoholics that they may lapse into their old ways.

Pace

[Ulster]

If you don't pass the test you don't climb into the aircraft.

Simple really follow the rail network system at least you will be clean for the duration of the flight!

Two comments on that suggestion, on the face of it a very reasonable one.

Firstly (the flippant one ! ) - what about the booze on board ? The bar or duty-free trolley. More responsibility for the number one to balance the books !

Secondly (and more seriously) many people who have a genuine alcohol problem will NOT necessarily be completely fit to fly simply because their blood (and therefore breath) concentration has fallen to zero. Performance factors such as alertness, memory, reaction time, concentration, to name but a few, may all remain impaired for much longer than ethanol is actually detectable.

I do agree, though, that this suggestion should NOT be opposed by the vast majority of crews who have no problem. As the old saying goes : "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear". :=

[cavortingcheetah]

Suffer the Synapse.

One dark and stormy night as you as you slog through the rain and hail to the airliner, carrying your Captain's flight bag and maintaining a respectful distance behind him, you might notice that your Skipper has a rolling sort of gait. His passage across the tarmac reminds you that he is a hearty sailor and owns a small but ship shape yacht which he keeps in the Southampton Solent. The boat's a refuge from the ogre that is his wife and her husband abusing techniques of sleep deprivation for no useful purpose and fragrant Spotted Dick spiked with Senokot. His wide based walk reminds you that here is your Commander, master of both seas and skies and you reflect, with a warm glow of tremulous anticipation, upon his promise that, at the end of your last sector, you'll have a glass or two of something really warming with him and the girls on their backs. He'd be a first class fellow then would he not, a paragon amongst role models? Well perhaps he might be but then again he could, it's not likely I'll admit but, Nystagmus notwithstanding, be suffering from Cerebellar Atrophy which manifests the symptom of Ataxia as well as a shifty eyed weasel look.
Alcohol and candles have similarities in that they can be burnt at both ends.
Grog might be the refuge into which a traumatised individual launches himself, the physical manifestation of a mental torment but it can also be the agent that has the most disastrous effects upon the delicate chemistry of the body and eventually the mind itself. The delights of Bacchus have a toxic effect upon the central nervous system and ingestion in circumstances favourable to its development can, over time and many pleasurable evenings, lead to Alcohol Related Brain Injury (ARBI) and Cerebral Degeneration. Is such damage more permanent than Cirrhosis of the Liver? That depends upon how many brain cells have been destroyed and how well the individual concerned has learnt to compensate for the impairment.
As Euripides had Promethius say, those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad.

[MrSnuggles]

Sorry for repeating myself but cavortingcheetah, it is an absolute delight to read your posts in this thread.

[Ulster]

cavortingcheetah, it is an absolute delight to read your posts in this thread

I'm repeating myself too, but only to say that I wholeheartedly concur ! :)

[cavortingcheetah]

That's very kind of you and thank you for the compliments.

[deptrai]

Glengarry, there's a lot of success stories out there, also some old threads here, one in particular, I'm trying to find it.

Meanwhile, have a look at this: http://www.instituteforaddictionstudy.com/PDF/Addiction%20Treatment%20in%20Aviators.pdf

Edit: found it, here http://www.pprune.org/3028059-post52.html - remarkable story, few go to jail, and it's really not necessary, if the person concerned (possibly even with some help from colleagues) takes early action. Few of these cases go that far, the vast majority involve much less drama, and are successfully resolved at a much earlier stage, quietly, with professional intervention. A lot of aviation is about tried and tested SOP's, and there is one for alcoholism too.

Aviation pioneer and Aviator Extraordinaire Antoine de Saint-Exupéry once observed this:

http://s24.postimg.org/ex2gpyv91/image.jpg

A lot has changed since he was flying, yet some things remain the same, alcohol is still there, and the short answer to your question is, yes, it can be fixed, it's been done countless times.