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View Full Version : Hold at DESDI/BUBIN but then short cut arrival?!


Voodoo 3
20th Jan 2014, 10:50
Far more often than not over recent weeks, months even, when asked to route to Desdi or Bubin and take up the hold, why is it that when handed over to approach on 124.9 do they almost always short cut the arrival from around Girgo (30R/L). You have to base your diversion fuel on flying the whole arrival. If sent to the hold I can not shortcut the arrival because of what usually happens to give me more fuel to hold because possibly ATC may ask to fly the whole arrival and then it could lead to a very uncomfortable situation.

So the question is, why do aircraft have to hold if DXB atc do not use the whole arrival procedure? Surely if the whole STAR is not full then there is no reason to hold? I think I recall that UAE now has this fancy arrival computer system so why do we have to hold when we often get shortcuts, can't we just follow the looooooooong arrival instead?

If no holding then I will expect at the most to fly the whole procedure and if not busy then a nice shortcut around girgo, happy days!

Also while I'm here, why are the shortcut arrivals not being used? It would kinda make more sense if being sent to the hold and then expect a shorter procedure as opposed to holding, expecting and planning for the longer trombone one and then getting a shortcut in the end which you can not forecast while going round in circles?!

Thanks all.:ok:

10 DME ARC
20th Jan 2014, 11:08
Voodoo - I guess you are not EK?? As most based airlines use a 'fuel star' for planning?? The full star or trombone as it gets called is for over flow as the system we have for sequencing aircraft off the holds is not that accurate, especially if you have strong upper winds or high surface wind.
Under normal ops base leg will be given around GIRGO(30), busy nights ops about 10nm after.
Hope that helps, most pilots like getting a short cut!?!?:\

skysod
20th Jan 2014, 11:29
I'm with Voodoo on this one.......if ATC started instructing aircraft to take up the hold ONLY after the long arrival route is "full", then this makes fuel planning for holding/diverting much easier/more accurate.
As it is, whilst in the hold it is impossible to know how many track miles you will be required to fly once instructed to continue on the STAR.

single chime
20th Jan 2014, 11:46
I like the turn at GIRGO. Lately, the 124.9 controller has been really good at telling people where to expect their base turn (can't you figure the track miles yourself?).
I hate flying at 185kts, flaps 15 and 4000' to a 30 NM final. 1 or 2 spins at DESDI at FL180 will burn waaaay less fuel.
And I leave DESDI with the fuel for the worst, hoping the best (8 NM final).

Plazbot
20th Jan 2014, 11:55
Usually it is because of where the first few aircraft in the arrival sequence come from before holding is required. For example, if it is rwy 30 and the first few are from BUBIN, the get short cut to Sedpo. The arrivals manager computer works out the landing times not taking this into account so this means that there is a effective 3-4 minute gap that gets created and it will mean everyone gets short cut from that side. It can be averted by doing what is called 'taking extras' but this means the Dubai guys have to see it about to happen and ask for it. Darax guys for 30 when sent on a southerly heading from PUVAL cause the same issue. Reverse all of the above for 12 arrivals.

Voodoo 3
20th Jan 2014, 12:06
10DME, you're right not EK.

It's just I don't get doing circles at Desdi and then not doing the full arrival. If the arrival ain't full then why hold us. I am sure there are many variables that we pilots don't get to see but it's just a curious situation that we have to plan for the whole STAR and then don't end up flying it having been holding.:confused:

Thanks for other replies.

Any idea why the shorter arrivals are not in use yet?

Lately, the 124.9 controller has been really good at telling people where to expect their base turn (can't you figure the track miles yourself?)..

SC, I hope that wasn't aimed at me. I can work out miles quite well thanks but am staggered by the amount of people who seem less able to…..:*

single chime
20th Jan 2014, 12:22
Voodoo, no, it was not for you. I get to fly with people who can't, that's all.

falconeasydriver
20th Jan 2014, 12:24
The guys that generally ask for track miles (myself included) have generally flown previously in Europe or the UK. The reason we ask is that we are trying as best we can to fly a CDA...of course I can work out track miles, but it's impossible to do so when you don't know when you are turning base.

single chime
20th Jan 2014, 12:39
Yes Falcon, it would be much easier for everyone if on first contact with DXB the controller would tell us "... and expect base turn at (position ABC)".

Plazbot
20th Jan 2014, 13:27
Further to my above, the short cuts will continue until there is a fairly even number of arrivals from both sides. If you come in at say 4am local from BUBIN side, the seventh or eighth aircraft will likely be the first to hold and assuming all the African traffic does not come through MIADA almost everybody will get short cut. The short cuts will stop when the traffic from the other side builds and hits abeam the field.

10 DME ARC
20th Jan 2014, 13:46
Every one doing the full trombone leaves no leeway for spacing on final(4nm -8nm norm vortex) or any problems like, AMAN timings, go-arounds etc etc.
The shorter STAR is purely a fuel planning STAR as it recognised that you won't fly the full star most of the time!

Whilst on subject of spacing please don't slow below given speed without telling us! Most of the time the ones who do slow end up sending the one behind around and don't even notice any thing but an ATC Bollocking! Mean while some one behind is going around and doing an extra 40 track miles!! An example; un-named Super the other night given 160kts to 5nm gets transferred to tower next seen at eight miles doing 137kt ground!! 2xB777 behind back to min safe and just make vortex as do the two B737's behind them. The one decrease in speed effected at least four other aircraft!!
Thank you off soap box;)

Plazbot
20th Jan 2014, 15:16
[quote]It's just I don't get doing circles at Desdi and then not doing the full arrival. If the arrival ain't full then why hold us. [\quote]

Holding is not for now but what is going to happen in 19 minutes at the runway. Keep in mind basic maths that with effectively a two minute landing sequence, if four aircraft have an estimated landing time of exactly the same and are coming through 4 different gates someone gets 2 mins delay, someone 4 and someone 6. Simple. You can have noone on your arrival between yourself and the airport yet to avoid raining bags all over Mirdif, you need to hold.

allrounder99
8th Feb 2014, 10:15
It's just I don't get doing circles at Desdi and then not doing the full arrival. If the arrival ain't full then why hold us.

Our fandangle arrival manager, as Plazbot has just said, plans the traffic to LAND in sequence evenly spaced through 4 separate gates as if there were no approach (in theory).

The system isn't perfect so approach gets to "optimise:ok:" the flow once in the TMA.

It's not like the rest of the world where its due to capacity.

captainsmiffy
8th Feb 2014, 11:49
10 DME Arc.....not wishing to teach you to suck eggs or anything but when you say that the super was given 160 to 5 but was subsequently seen doing 137 ground....are you factoring the wind into that comment? 160 is an AIRSPEED and, given a 23 kt HW component will show up as 137 GROUNDSPEED on your readouts. Just saying.....

10 DME ARC
8th Feb 2014, 12:15
captainsmiffy - After thirty three years in Air Traffic I think I might have got hang of ground speed!! The 2/3&4000ft winds were virtually calm! 160 looked like around 167kts ground that night!

captainsmiffy
8th Feb 2014, 15:37
Had hoped that, as a professional controller, you might say that...!!! However, from your earlier post it wasnt clear with the way that you wrote it. At least we have cleared that bit up! As I said, didnt wish to teach you to suck eggs....!! And, yes, from a pilots perspective it always beggas belief if I see a colleague blatantly not following speed control. It IS, however, a very dynamic environment with a VERY unforgiving management if you do screw up so this might go some way in explaining why the chaps slow down earlier to guarantee stabilisation criteria. Granted though, some blokes do take the p*ss.....not excusing nor condoning their behaviour.

10 DME ARC
8th Feb 2014, 16:05
captsmiffy - totally understandable people people not wanting to screw up but please tell us before you do it!! We like you 'do not want to screw up' and are under considerable pressure to balance safety and still meet landing rates!

Guy D'ageradar
9th Feb 2014, 10:57
But the office bods keep on saying "there's no pressure" so surely it must be so?! :E

jack schidt
9th Feb 2014, 12:33
STAR's are used to sequence traffic onto the final approach and keep an organised flow. Would you expect to fly the whole STAR / Trombone because it's published and if you were the only aircraft inbound to Dubai....No you wouldn't?


It's a tool that aids sequencing, not a mandatory path to follow.

falconeasydriver
9th Feb 2014, 12:48
10 DME, I've been on the receiving end of slower aircraft ahead in recent weeks (guys, if your light on the 777, use F25 fer fecks sake, it keeps the speed up!) as both 380 and 330 traffic has slowed down to just stoopid slowness.
My question is, if you guys see this, and to me it's blatant at times.....do you send the transgressors around? or do you do what you've done to me twice in recent months and send us off to GINKI for doing exactly 210-190-160kts as requested...:ugh:

10 DME ARC
9th Feb 2014, 15:43
Falconeasydriver - I am glad it is as obvious to you as it looks to us, unfortunately it tends to be the following aircraft who are sent around as if you send first one round by the time starts the go-around you very likely have lost vortex and the following still likely to fly through wake!
The visual maintaining own separation is a useful aid if the following aircraft is able to see and accept. In most cases its the same 'company' effected!!

glofish
9th Feb 2014, 16:35
@ 10 DME and falcon:

Please don't send the slow fraction around. They will only slow down some more airspace!

The holding with subsequent shortcuts from the trombone make sense if you listen to the controllers. It gives them flexibility with all the astronauts flying in this region.

(rant on)
It is appalling to see some inability of compliance with speed instructions and the absence of path awareness with shortcuts. If you need the full trombone because your ability stops at managed flying, then tell the poor controllers already in the hold.
Oh, and by the way please refrain from asking if the opposite runway is available due to 5kts tailwind at peak times. It only makes your lack of situational awareness apparent .....
(rant off)

Capn Rex Havoc
10th Feb 2014, 04:11
Falcon- Please don't start a 777 vs airbus debate here. I have seen both 777s and airbus 380s and littleleruns, stuff around with the speed control. It certainly isn't just the purvey of airbus to not comply.

On a side issue- Please Ladies and Gentlemen- when you first contact Arrivals on 124.9 please just say your call sign altitude passing and aircraft type as per the CCI/AOI.

When you start saying emirates x passing x descending to x received atis x qnh x "boeing 777" (or "Airbus 343") with the associated arrhs and ums, you invariably block radio transmissions and cause more confusion on a busy frequency.
:sad:

falconeasydriver
10th Feb 2014, 04:51
No need to be so sensitive REX, certainly NOT my intention, I'm only speaking of my own experience in the last couple of months.
Anecdotally it would appear that the 380 fleet are the biggest constituent part of the problem given the amazing wing on the thing and its consequently lower Vref.
That being said, I've had some sideways glances when briefing an approach in a light 777 to use F25 so as to better fit into the sequence, not withstanding landing perf considerations, which would suggest their are a few 777 drivers also guilty. For me flying an approach at 145-150 kts fits in much better when everyone else is, as opposed to being the only one doing 130 and getting a 160/4 instruction then struggling to "reasonably expect" being on speed at 500 AAL.

I should also add re: CCI and AOI info radio calls etc, do that and you have a better than even chance of being queried "confirm you have ATIS * ?"

Capn Rex Havoc
10th Feb 2014, 06:01
I should also add re: CCI and AOI info radio calls etc, do that and you have a better than even chance of being queried "confirm you have ATIS * ?"

Falcon- u should try making the correct call sometime. Atc never say confirm u have atis x.

falconeasydriver
10th Feb 2014, 07:13
Falcon- u should try making the correct call sometime. Atc never say confirm u have atis x.

Then I must be imagining things, as I heard it verbatim directed to myself, the aircraft behind me, and the one behind that as we all approached GIRGO, perhaps the CC are putting magic mushrooms in my coffee….and besides, why on earth would I bother to post it if I hadn't heard it? Do things actually happen in this world Rex without your knowledge, does this set a precedent? should I alert the authorities:ugh:
Maybe we should all bow down to the Oracle that is your goodself…you have spoken so thus twas nout uttered...

Capn Rex Havoc
10th Feb 2014, 08:29
Falcon- sounds like you should take your own advice and stop being so sensitive.

Your assertion that you say the atis because you don't want to be asked by Atc if you have received it may be true- but the fact is - you are not meant to say what atis you have received. It is laid out in black and white re what you are supposed to say on first contact- so just do it.

(Ps from the sounds of you I'd be very worried what the cc put on your coffee);)

Jihad Jim
10th Feb 2014, 08:38
Falcon the only self appointed oracle on here is you. Once again you are letting your undeserved high opinion of yourself cloud the issue.

The call is as mentioned above.Its been around here longer than you and your tiresome opinions have. Gradually the word is getting around and the RT is improving in this area. The fact that the odd variation occurs does not detract from that. The fact that opinionated insecure underachievers like yourself continue to embellish the call with some misguided sense of superior airmanship also does not alter the requirement. It only exacerbates the congestion and highlights your actual lack of airmanship.:ugh:
So which is it? An inability to read or willful non compliance . Whatever it doesnt help.

You have a lot of patronising opinions about all things aviation, colleagues et al.None of them complimentary unless it concerns your input, knowledge,skills and attitude. That is a normal trait for an underachieving, chippy ex military and self confessed career f/o.

I am also pretty sure you get lots of sideways glances as you give forth from the right seat, but probably not for the reasons your ego imagines.:ok:

falconeasydriver
10th Feb 2014, 08:48
Your assertion that you say the atis because you don't want to be asked by Atc if you have received it may be true- but the fact is - you are not meant to say what atis you have received. It is laid out in black and white re what you are supposed to say on first contact- so just do it.

Where did I assert what I said? I merely passed on what I've heard :D I haven't yet offered what I transmit on initial contact, BTW, what part of Oz are you from Rex?

Jim Touché, I also smell, and most likely have interpersonal issues when I put on my leather flying gloves.
To be honest I'm barely able to pass wind these days, let alone a PPC.

Capn Rex Havoc
10th Feb 2014, 10:11
re: CCI and AOI info radio calls etc, do that and you have a better than even chance of being queried "confirm you have ATIS * ?"

I guess that is where I got it from.

It says where I am from in Australia in my profile.

I'm sorry Falcon, I was just pointing out the correct thing to say on first contact to approach, and that the entire spectrum of operators tend to not comply with the assigned final speeds. Too bad you feel the need to insult and belittle others on here.:hmm:

1Charlie
10th Feb 2014, 10:29
Arrival managers are able to give a sequence accurate down to about +\- 1 or 2 minutes unless aircraft are being flowed through the same gate. This is due to inaccuracies in the forecast vs system winds, aircraft profiles, and just the inability of some aircraft to hit the fix accurately. Obviously in a 2 minute sequence, +\- 1 or 2 minutes is not good enough. So there will either be a Radar vector to final or some sort of track stretching star like the trombone or point merge to refine the flow.

In normal operations you wouldn't expect to fly the full star, it's designed so you can be short cut or stretched to hit the slot bang on.

This more a general point on stars and AMAN Not specifically related to DXB.

falconeasydriver
10th Feb 2014, 10:37
I guess that is where I got it from.

It says where I am from in Australia in my profile.

I'm sorry Falcon, I was just pointing out the correct thing to say on first contact to approach, and that the entire spectrum of operators tend to not comply with the assigned final speeds. Too bad you feel the need to insult and belittle others on here.

Rex, let me offer my apologies if I caused offense with my caustic remarks, I am merely as others have pointed out a career F/O with little or no hope of upgrade.
I am a product of the environment I operate in, in as much when Captains want my opinion, they give it to me, so in that respect treat my comments/observations on that basis i.e. I'm embittered and have a limited intellectual capability/vocabulary.
Jihad gets no such apology…but only because he's right.

Megaton
10th Feb 2014, 11:04
I'm not a frequent visitor to DXB so please bear with me. Last week we held for 20 minutes, were then vectored outbound for approx further 5-10 mins then turned back onto the full RNAV STAR before finally becoming established on the RNAV approach behind (I think) a medium jet. We complied with speed instructions as quickly and as accurately as we could and yet we still ended up catching up the aircraft in front. We were broken off the approach and dog-legged back onto it again before finally the aircraft in front had its approach broken off.

Is this normal for DXB these days? We had, IIRC, 22 mins contingency, RNAV STAR fuel plus a bit extra and we were starting to discuss our fuel options in the event of a G/A. Planning is manageable if holding was just 20 mins as advised by ATC but to then vector us around for a further 10 mins then fly the full STAR starts to make fuel planning for DXB tyros more challenging. The weather was CAVOK and the winds were, IIRC, light at all levels so can we expect these sort of delays for every arrival? Our company fuel planning program gave us increased contingency so statistically I believe that these delays are becoming the norm but can someone with better local knowledge confirm or deny my instincts.

Incidentally, some indication of track miles would have helped. Again, not being familiar with the environment did leave us wondering when we were going to be turned back in - it did feel like a long way out (before anyone asks we were watching the aircraft in front to see when they were turning base).

Thanks

10 DME ARC
10th Feb 2014, 12:48
Ham Phisted - The vector after the hold seems to be the way area achieve AMAN timings, your delay probably equated in time to less than another trip round the hold! 20min would have been peak wave times or during single runway ops.
Two go-arounds?? My watch were not on shift, well I cannot remember it so?? Track miles should be given or approx base leg point so you can work it out so apologies there!