Advocating RAFAT trip to New Zealand. [Archive]

Al R

20th Jan 2014, 08:51

I have a mate down there who wants to try and get the Reds to visit. He tells me they have never visited, which really surprised me. Has it been considered before and rejected out of hand?

Assuming the idea gets some traction, what should he be looking for when proposing the event, what is going to sell the idea, what would the MoD be looking for and who would be the best points of contact (Air Attache in the first instance etc?). I imagine that the lead in time is a few years by which time of course..

.. I know that the Reds are on the cusp of disbanding and that we can't even afford the fuel anymore anyway!

Genstabler

20th Jan 2014, 09:05

They would need a drop tank fit, a refuelling probe or an aircraft carrier. The Hawk doesn't have the legs.

They have done their best to redress the omission by selecting a stream of NZ pilots in the last few years!

500N

20th Jan 2014, 09:31

If they flew to NZ to do a display, wouldn't they then do other displays
like in Aus and other countries along the way ?

Middle East ? Get some rich Sheik to pay for the trip ?

Re the anniversary of the end of WWI, can't see the relevance of the Red Arrows to it.

Genstabler

20th Jan 2014, 10:04

They have displayed in Australia and they came back just before Christmas from a busy tour of the Middle East. A year ago they went to Russia. About six years ago they went as far as Malaysia. They fly the flag right across the globe.

Brisbane to Norfolk Island is 790 NM. Too far. NI to North Island is just about achievable.

sbdorset

20th Jan 2014, 11:10

All, or mostly all, overseas tours have had some significant levels of industry support to cover costs. Having sponsored several times (on behalf of my shareholders you understand) I can attest to the fact that it a most expensive exercise, but if the destination is a large customer or potential customer then shareholders will wear it. NZ, even in range, would not be on any industry list.

Sevarg

20th Jan 2014, 11:38

Genstabler,
Try via Lord Howe Is then Norfolk Is, that should be doable.

Wycombe

20th Jan 2014, 11:55

IIRC there is actually a statement on the RAFAT website that specifically calls out NZ as being out of reach.

Which is a great pity as I cant think of many other places on Earth where a few displays would be more warmly welcomed.

Red Arrows over Wanaka - now that would be worth seeing :-)

Genstabler

20th Jan 2014, 12:16

Lord Howe Island Airport, Australia (YLHI)

Runways: One asphalt, 2,908ft (886m)

Air Traffic: Commuter aircraft and light aircraft

Hazards: Short runway, high terrain on both sides, water at both ends, frequently poor weather.

Excerpt from an article about the world's most dangerous airports.
Don't think the Reds would be happy staging through there!

Bob Viking

20th Jan 2014, 12:43

I would just like to add that 790NM is not too far for a Hawk to fly. However, operating under a 'point of no return' scenario in a single engine jet is not most people's idea of fun. Plus the sea down there has lots of sharks in it. Sharks are scary.
BV

Roadster280

20th Jan 2014, 13:24

Put a/c on a boat. How long would it take to cross the Tasman Sea? A couple of days? Where's the issue?

just another jocky

20th Jan 2014, 13:27

Roadster280 - do you have a spare boat? :}

Al R

20th Jan 2014, 13:31

I think the logistics are fair enough and the fish food aspects are understandable. But what about a limited presence.. say, 3 jets doing a limited display? It's the thought that counts. I can't think of a more deserving bunch who would be more appreciative. I know the variables and other factors remain the same but they might make the thing more do-able.

Roadster280

20th Jan 2014, 13:42

Good point JAJ!

vascodegama

20th Jan 2014, 13:54

It was one of the harder pub quiz question ie which is the only capital city that the Red Arrows couldn't display at ? Ans Wellington -of course the use of a boat etc would make it possible but the question is aimed at the range of the Hawk. A quick look at great circle planner puts the range from the closest mainland Australian airfield to the nearest NZ one as about 1100 nm. Even if it was possible one way , the wind component would preclude the recovery. Doesn't matter if it 3 or 9/10 ac it is just too far unless as stated above the drop tank fit becomes an option.

Al R

20th Jan 2014, 17:38

Said mate understands the logistics but has pointed out that it didn't stop Jean Batten. :ok:

old10ge

20th Jan 2014, 17:53

Surely it would be cheaper to bring the interested parties to the UK. Hopefully when those north of the border get their independence then we won't be sending the Reds there either

Danny42C

20th Jan 2014, 18:15

(Sciolist hat jammed firmly over ears)

Take wings off, stick 'em in containers (would tail fit in 9ft wth u/c up ? - and there must be a container port in NZ, surely), take out at other end and put wings back on.

Do shows, come back same way.

Hangarshuffle

20th Jan 2014, 18:31

How much would it cost? What happens to RAF Scampton when they are away-is it mothballed?
What are the total costs of having the Red Arrows for one FY anyway? I'm interested.

p.s. they're about to close the last remaining Fire Station in my old town. From now on the good people of XX will be relying upon a life saving service from a station over a dozen miles away. Great Britain is FUBAR>we have had a town fire service for over 100+ years. But let them eat cake, yes?
Moneys tight lads, all I'm saying.

Roadster280

20th Jan 2014, 18:34

It's all but mothballed now isn't it? Drove past it last week. Sorry state of blocks facing the A15.

Cows getting bigger

20th Jan 2014, 19:00

If we sent them there would they have to come back? :E

Inshala

20th Jan 2014, 19:30

I was wondering how long it would take you Hangar. Well done.

Hangarshuffle

20th Jan 2014, 19:35

A fair question by me, go on RAF how much is it? I'm interested. How many threads are running about missing MPA/ fighters/MANPADS because of reduced budgets and yet the fig leaf, the sacred cow of the RAF is never ever threatened with the stun gun!

BUCCANEER SCAMP

20th Jan 2014, 19:37

We could send these.. http://m.youtube.com/results?q=red%20arrows%20rc%20&sm=3 no one would know the difference!

As for Scampton being bothballed isnt there some Tornados moving in, in the near future to hanger 3?

Hangarshuffle

20th Jan 2014, 19:58

My source here> BBC News - Scrap Red Arrows, says Plaid Cymru MP Jonathan Edwards (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-10927410)

I suspect its a lot higher than that if its even calculable.
Cost against prestige. Pride against practicality.
But I concede 8.8 million was probably good value, comparatively. If true.

Buccaneer that is quality....fly them higher...buy up motorheads sound system and play jet engine noises!!

Roadster280

20th Jan 2014, 20:18

What does provision of a fire station in town "X" have to do with how the RAF spends its budget?

Surely you are not so naive as to believe that if the RAF realised the perils in "X", the CAS would offer up RAFAT for disbandment, the budget would flow back to the Treasury, and hence onward to town "X"'s county to spend on its fire stations?

If this were the case, perhaps the inhabitants of "X" might realise the perils of not having an MPA, take the lack of fire cover on risk, and volunteer the cash for MPA provision?

Or not.

Hangarshuffle

20th Jan 2014, 20:37

One way or another. An obvious sign we haven't got our national finances in order? I was only using town X as one immediate example that happened today - this sort of cutback is going on everywhere at many levels all over the British Isles, weekly. Could have come closer to home, or further away..
(If the RAF has money to spend within its budget on a display in New Zealand (!!) when it hasn't got...you tell me- it needs to look at how it spends its budget. And who is in charge of its budget.

* If it really is "only" 8.8 million pa get British Industry/Commercial sponsorship? RR,BAE and other aviation/arms dealers to pay for it....plenty of them.

bobward

20th Jan 2014, 20:55

1 The Aussie cousins have Hawks (similar to our T2-?)
2 Paint nine in water based paint;
3 Send the Reds out by airliner to fly them.

Would that work?

Give me half an hour to dig the slit trench outside, please......:ok::oh:

Bob Viking

20th Jan 2014, 22:26

If, and it's one hell of a big if, the Reds were to display in NZ why the hell do you think the RAF would be picking up the tab? Do you think the RAF paid for the recent tour of the Middle East? Do you actually inwardly digest anything that is written on this forum? Foreign tours are funded by industry, plain and simple.
I don't know you from Adam but right now you appear to be either very naive or you just deliberately ignore factual inputs to push your own, incorrect, agenda.
BV:=

Al R

20th Jan 2014, 22:42

Give me half an hour to dig the slit trench outside, please......

Bob,

If you can dig in, in 30 minutes, you have NOTHING to fear from a bunch of internet crabs (other arms, branches, services, nations and nicknames are available).

Clockwork Mouse

20th Jan 2014, 22:52

Bob Viking

Well said Sir! Especially your second paragraph. I think it is very much the second option. He has form.

gr4techie

20th Jan 2014, 23:45

NutLoose

21st Jan 2014, 00:02

One just wonders were the funding would come from, we can't all have Christmas every day you know...... Well unless you live in Derby of course :O

typerated

21st Jan 2014, 06:48

Obviously the RAFAT will never visit NZ. The poster is just dreaming.

I was appalled that the RAF didn't see fit to send anything to the RNZAF's 75th anniversary do at Ohakea the other year though. Very poor treatment to a loyal ally I thought.

Heliport

21st Jan 2014, 10:47

They have done their best to redress the omission by selecting a stream of NZ pilots in the last few years!

And the man who transformed the Red Arrows and earned the team worldwide acclaim …… A New Zealander (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/200715-sqd-ldr-ray-hanna-afc.html)

H.

piesupper

21st Jan 2014, 11:23

old10ge - What makes you think anyone in Scotland would want to invite the Reds for a show?
One of the many benefits of independence will be a serious reduction in the number of low-flying military jets over our territory and too often sadly colliding with each other or a hill.
Why we would want to see a bunch of foreign training jets doing pretty things in the sky?
Might be _slightly_ more impressed if they were actual combat jets instead of Hawks.
Yanks use F/A18 and IIRC (and I'm sure I'll be corrected) have always used current front-line aircraft. Russian Knights use SU-27s of various marks and the Swifts fly Mig-29s. Is the Typhoon not maneuverable enough? Or is it second-best Britain again? Trying to kid on that somehow the UK is relevant and is still a major player...

"Fur coat and nae knickers" is a phrase that springs to mind. You can't afford fire stations or coastguards or a viable MPA so don't kid yourself on you can afford an ego-polishing aerobatic display team.
And if the RAF can't recruit without the Reds then it says a lot more about the RAF than it does about the Reds (whose personal skill and professionalism is not in doubt, despite the tone of the foregoing)

Piesupper

Jimlad1

21st Jan 2014, 11:33

I used to be a bit cynical about the Reds value, but having worked in areas where you see the value of what they bring, then I am now a huge convert. The Reds provide something which is intangible - its that demonstration of British values, skills and capability which wows audiences and impresses rulers. Its fair to say that their Mid East tour was a rousing success, and very markedly improved UK standing in a region built on gestures, demonstration and presence - sticking RAFAT in made a real difference and I would aruge indirectly helps UK win export orders in a range of sectors and keeps people in jobs. Why - because the people there want to be impressed, they want to see UK commitment and they want to see something that stands out from the crowd.
Secondly, the Reds presence provides diplomatic access, its on the front pages of all the main papers and it is something which is an easy 'in' to begin talking about more difficult matters with. If you dont believe me, try watching the Ambassadors with Prince Mark and the President to see how business is really done.
Just because you cannot put a direct value on it doesnt mean it isnt worth its weight in gold. One of the worst things this country could do is scrap the Reds - they provide diplomatic influence that other nations can only dream of.
Having just come back from the Bahrain Air Show and seen how well a small UK presence is received, I am a huge supporter of this sort of thing. It may not kill bad guys, but it helps set the conditions to help UK as a whole acheive so much more.

Heathrow Harry

21st Jan 2014, 11:52

The best -as in the most entertaining - display teams normally use trainers

A large supersonic jet makes a hell of a racket and can't stay within sight most of the time - remember when the RAF flew Lightnings in displays?

You need to emulate someone like the Snowbirds in fact.......

Jimlad1

21st Jan 2014, 11:56

To back up H-H - at Bahrain last week, the F22 and B1 displays were absolutely pants. Fast flypast then off. By contrast the Typhoon display was absolutely superb and stole the show. Maybe Typhoon should be a trainer... :ok:

piesupper

21st Jan 2014, 12:05

A reasonable point, HH. In fact looking at List of aerobatic teams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aerobatic_teams) proves you are correct.
For those who have seen the F-18s and the Russian Knights, how does the spectator experience compare to the Reds (or other teams using trainer aircraft)?

From a national willy-waving PoV, I'd still be inclined (were it my decision) to showcase the latest front-line aircraft but showing off to sheiks is a different gig from enthusing the holidaymakers at Torquay etc.

Either way, don't go holding your breath for an invite to the Reds to fly over Independence celebrations in Edinburgh in 2016.

Whenurhappy

21st Jan 2014, 12:08

Jimlad1 - well said, as usual. Then Ambassadors was a frighteningly accurate portrayal of life in a mission is a slightly hostile Receiving State, so I'm told. There are numerous in-jokes (qv Prince Mark) and accurate details - right down to the emergency destruction kit in the screened area.

The arguments against RAFAT are very similar to those touted about the service careers of Princes William and Harry - based either on Class Envy and zero-sum economics (or both). The recent announcement of Capt Wales taking up an Engagements post in London District makes eminent sense from a soft-power perspective. Both RAFAT and Harry are engagement tools (so to speak) and both have massive street currency, and in the case of Capt Wales, operational credibility.

Back to the OP, it is a great pity that RAFAT can't make it out to NZ, given that there is the 80th Anniversary of the founding of the RNZAF in 2017, but the practicalities are sadly clear. For anyone mildly interested in history of the RAF, it is instructive to see the involvement of early RAF aviators such as Salmond and Cochrane in shaping the RNZAF.

Heathrow Harry

21st Jan 2014, 12:12

No one has suggested that if the New Zealanders really want to see the Red Arrows they could pay for them to come..............

Squirrel 41

21st Jan 2014, 12:42

Back to the possibility of actually doing it...

Is Lord Howe definitively out? If not, then RAAF Williamtown - Lord Howe - Norfolk Island - Whangarei (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ntl-LDH-NLK-WRE) has no stage length above 600nm.

Reds over Wanaka? Love to see it! :E

S41

Samuel

22nd Jan 2014, 11:48

RNZAF 75th Anniversary Air Show - YouTube

Back to the OP, it is a great pity that RAFAT can't make it out to NZ, given that there is the 80th Anniversary of the founding of the RNZAF in 2017, but the practicalities are sadly clear. For anyone mildly interested in history of the RAF, it is instructive to see the involvement of early RAF aviators such as Salmond and Cochrane in shaping the RNZAF.

Nice sentiment, but it won't fly [sic]. The RAF couldn't make it to the RNZAF 75th Anniversary in 2012, so highly unlikely to give any consideration to the Reds! [Personally I would prefer a Typhoon display team anyway!]

Besides, the UK having discarded Australia and New Zealand in 1973 in favour of the EU, there simply isn't the will to do it.