is the pre-licence test flight mandatory?

[Stanley1985]

Hi all

I will take my PPL final flight test this friday afternoon. According to my schedule, I have a pre-licence test flight before this final one.

Is the pre-licence test flight mandatory? Is it possible to go for the final test bypassing this pre-licence test?

Thank you

Stanley

[engine out]

The question should be why don't you want to do it? If you can manage the pre-licence test the real test should be a breeze.

[morno]

I'm no expert in training at all, but don't you have to be put forward by your school, as suitable to undergo the test, and that's the whole purpose of the pre-test?

morno

[tmpffisch]

Your instructor has to recommend you for the test; the pre-licence flight does this.

Generally they're much harder than the real test; which turns out to be a breeze since you've been already run through your paces.

[27/09]

I would think it's not mandatory though your school's training programme may make it a requirement.

Either way I don't see what the problem is in having to do it. It's pretty common with any organisation I've been involved with for there to be a trial run of the flight test.

It's a very very good way to prepare for the flight test, there's no pressure on the candidate and it gives a chance for the candidate to get some feedback prior to the actual test. This feedback could be invaluable on the day of the flight test.

In the unlikely event that the trial shows up some glaring deficiencies in the candidates flying then the flight test can be postponed to allow remedial training. This way the candidate wont have a failed flight test showing on their record.

[Centaurus]

Presumably your flying school has a flying training syllabus that accords with CASA published requirements. After the prerequisite dual and solo sessions are completed to a satisfactory standard, the next flight would normally be your test (GFPT, PPL, CPL, CIR etc). Does the CASA syllabus of training state a requirement for a "pre-test" dual period? I doubt it. You are either certified as ready for your test or not. A "pre-test" is more money to your flying school. Certainly it gives you more dual practice - but is it really necessary if you have already successfully completed the approved CASA syllabus prior to the test?

If your progress is unsatisfactory after the minimum required dual hours, then more training is probably needed at your expense of course. Once that remedial training is completed then you don't need yet another dual session as a "pre-test".

[lethalw]

Is this "pre-test" carried out after your last solo navigation exercise? If so, is the pre test a full navigation flight or just a brush up on general handling?

[engine out]

Most schools I have come across have a pre-test nav. It is usually just the final navigation exercise prior to the test as per their syllabus. You could call it navex 10 or whatever number but most just call it the pre-test/pre-final and check that everything is good for the test, paper work is complete and no bad habits have been picked up during solo exercises.

[VH-XXX]

This is one of the reasons I arranged to always fly with the CFI / ATO, because there's no point him recommending for you to fly with himself ! Probably saved a few $$$.

[mcgrath50]

I've done it both with instructors and the CFI/ATO himself before doing the test proper. Every time I found it pushes you way more than the actual test. Although I wouldn't bank on the test being easier, getting through the pre-test gives you the confidence to do it again a few days later!

A test is expensive when you factor in all the ATO fees, you want everything going your way on the day!

[Tee Emm]

"Most schools I have come across have a pre-test nav"


I remember one grade 3 at a Victorian flying school who was notorious for chasing PPL navigation exercises to make more money. . When the time came to put up the student to the CFi for PPL nav test, (having already flown more navex's than needed) he would say "very well flown nav trip, Bloggs. I'll book you in for one more navex with me and then you should be OK for the test." He had such an engaging manner that his students really believed him. He later became a Qantas (International) Second Officer which was always his stated career aim. Big bucks for little work.

[Homesick-Angel]

If you are doing an integrated course i.e straight through to CPL, a PPL test is not required (most schools still do them tho and their training records/syllabus are the "boss" in that particular school) , a PPL IS a bloody good idea as a checkpoint in your training and if you can't reach the standard there, you will not make the grade at CPL.

It's not the instructor that puts you up for the test, but the CFI (if the instructor/s say the candidate is up to standard in the pre licence)

There are a lot of things wrong with flight training systems in this country , but I don't think the pre licence tests are one of them.

Flight schools are required to have a certain percentage of candidates pass on first attempt, and if this goes too far the wrong way, the school will be investigated or at the very least get questions.

On the students side of things, your whole career will be built upon tests, exams, being checked, looked at, investigated, and the pre test, then test system (if done properly) is quite effective.

Your average CPL with MECIR etc may have done four major flight tests and at least four pre licenses as well as 10 subjects of theory minimum. If they have a job,they will have been checked to line, or had CP check flights. In the airlines it's possibly three major SIM checks per year and pretty much constant inquisitions in the air either from other pilots or from systems monitoring from a central control. Why were you out of tolerance for this or that etc.


If you wanna work as a pilot, may as well get used to tests...

[Centaurus]

pretty much constant inquisitions in the air either from other pilots or from systems monitoring from a central control. Why were you out of tolerance for this or that etc.



Interesting point made on the last sentence. Apparently some operators still use the FOQA system to haul in pilots for an inquisition. I understand that was never the original purpose behind the introduction of FOQA. Ideally FOQA is to identify flight safety trends and where necessary amend procedures. Or am I being too naïve?:ooh:

[Nomde plume]

It is the school, the CFI and your instructor(s) who must recommend you for the test (just read the test forms!!!). If they say you need to do a pre licence, then you need to do a pre licence!

[dubbleyew eight]

I dont think that you are wrong centaurus.

look at the history of the bienniel flight review.
it started out as just a check ride and was probably $100

now it is a full blown reassessment requiring cross country nav and lots of crap. my last one was $680 in a flying school aircraft incapable of climbing above 2700ft. total bull****.

like most things CASA it starts out simple and then is made into a total rort.

[Homesick-Angel]

The problem is , that statistically speaking, if you are between 40-65, own your own aircraft, and have a PPL, you are probably going to be the next one to die.

If your aircraft falls into experimental cat, raise the odds against you again.

Who you kill is up to.

Private pilots have a gross statistical trail that spans decades, and a number of beliefs that because you own your own plane, post on pprune and read Australian flying, that you are an expert - if you've invested time and money into your aircraft, you think you are entitled to do it how you please and that CASA are just there to create problems for you (In many cases, CASA get it wrong, but not always), but in my experience of conducting flight reviews, this group is the most concerning group in the air both in terms of actual skill vs own belief in skill, and the knowledge of and adherence to current rules.

Other issues I saw far too regularly were : can't do(or don't do) w+b or take off and landing charts correctly! can't read WX, don't read notams, don't know where to find rules and regs, don't do lookouts! Talk when other radio calls are being made, look at instruments for attitude.. Have no organized plan for a PFL, are not current on emergencies in their particular aircraft and don't know the airspeed a for a glide!!! or other basic POH information.... Every single thing bar one or two I have previously mentioned are things that can be practiced driving a car, or sitting at home on the couch..!

That statistical group stays just un current enough to be a danger to everyone.

You only have to witness one fatal accident, to see and smell the devestation, and the pain caused to the families involved to see that there has to be some pretty solid and continuous checks along the way.

You cannot fail a flight review, but if you're taking longer times than you think to get though, then it's possible, as hard as it is to admit to yourself and others, you need extra work on something. I'm sure there are some instructors out there who may stretch it out, but I've not heard of it before at any of the schools I worked at.

[tecman]

So, Stanley, did you pass the PPL test? And did the pre-licence test help?

Regarding AFRs, of all the cash I outlay to fly, this is the component I grudge least. It's a bit like project management - nothing magic about the process but the thinking and planning are very worthwhile in forcing currency with contemporary documents and procedures. I'd be worried if I ever got to the point of not trying, and not succeeding, in turning in a good performance. And even if everything goes well, a good instructor can usually find areas for improvement. (Under the hood in an LSA on a bumpy day comes to mind!).

I know there are places which do overcook the whole business but you don't have to be particularly well informed to avoid them. No doubt it varies between individuals and the type of flying they do but occasionally I've opted for a more complete session mainly, I think, as a confidence builder after major changes.

If I can drift into another recent topic, I think that spending the money saved on annually pulling apart perfectly good, moderate utilization aircraft could be well spent on owner PPL recurrent training.

[Tinstaafl]

The school, via the CFI, has to recommend you for a test. For many schools, their first time pass rate is a factor in whether they may keep their Air Operator's Certificate's flying school licence. No school is going to recommend you for a test unless they have a reasonable belief that you will pass.

When I was a CFI, the best way I found to assess that likelyhood was a pre-licence test ie a ground & flight exercise that, as much as possible, replicated the real thing. It didn't cost the student any extra $ because I included the pre-licence tests within the minimum hour requirements for each course.

[VH-XXX]

The problem is , that statistically speaking, if you are between 40-65, own your own aircraft, and have a PPL, you are probably going to be the next one to die.

If your aircraft falls into experimental cat, raise the odds against you again.

Nice generalisation, because charter pilots under 40 have never crashed before :ugh:

[Homesick-Angel]

I was of course being purposefully inflammatory , but the stats confirm what I'm saying. In pure numbers, commercial operations are far safer than any other with RPT being the safest.

2003-2012 CHTR 24 fatalities
2003-2012 flight training 19 fatalities
2003-2012 PVT 170 fatalities.

(From aviation occurrence statistics CASA)

The types of incidents also cover a huge range of ways to get into trouble,but almost an even split between power plant, loss of separation,and loss of control for the front runners.

[MikeTangoEcho]

Well said Homesick-Angel.. All you have to do is spend a half day (probably less) listening to any CTAF to hear the absolute crap that some people pass off as RT. If they can't put the effort into those, imagine the flying? An AFR should be something to look forward to, not a 'my way against their way' approach. You might learn something!

[Stanley1985]

Oh yes I got my wings!

And it was helpful.

Anyway, have you guys had any experience converting a casa ppl to a dca Malaysian ppl?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Have a chat with Capt Siva (Malaysian Airlines Skipper) at the FAS aero club at Subang (WMSA).:ok: