Blogger needs help on article from pilots

[CactusLand]

Hi,

I am a blogger and novelist, and have been published in Lew Rockwell, Inforwars and Pravda among others. I am currently working on a piece that specifically deals with how Hani Hanjour performed his final maneuver into the Pentagon. I want the piece to specifically cover the time from which he walks into the cockpit until the final impact. Interspersed with this will be flashbacks to his aviation training in order to compare what his skills were and what he supposedly accomplished.

I sent an email to the webmaster, Rob, and he told me I could post the question in this section (I believe this is the section he was referring to)

I want to make clear that I am not entering this with an agenda, I am an agnostic on this topic, but want to dig into it and write something that will clear up some things with me, and hopefully for others.

Some of the things I am interested in really understanding are:

How difficult would it have been for Hanjour to use the autopilot, did he use the autopilot for the final maneuver? What would it be like for someone who had never flown a jet, but had practiced on a simulator? Would it be overwhelming, or more or less the same? What type of procedures would he have had to accomplish, and could he have learned them well enough on a simulator to carry them out effectively?

I know some will say this has been gone over too much, but I don't believe that there is an article written yet for the layman, and written well, that goes over this in detail. I want to stick the facts, and let the reader make his conclusions. I realize this will be a long article, in the 10,000 word range, long form, so I am willing to go into a lot of detail.

Ideally, I would like to be able to interview, by email, chat or Skype, a pilot with extensive experience flying a 757 and someone very familiar with Hani Hanjour's training and the actual maneuvers of that day. I understand this is asking quite a lot, but I feel that with the right sources, I can write an important piece that could help clarify, at least somewhat, this still very confusing episode.

Since this is a forum, maybe it would be better to just ask the questions here and create a discussion. I will not need names, I will just refer to pilots experienced with the 757.

I really want to stress that I am not looking to cause a stir, I really just want to write a good piece on something that has been gnawing at me for a long time, and keep focused just on this episode. I don't know much about planes or flying, but am very willing to spend months on this, as I did on my financial articles, to really create something worthwhile.

You can see more about me on my blog, This is the Dead Land, this is Cactus Land (http://www.thecactusland.com/)

Thanks very much for you help.

Best,

Robert

[CactusLand]

Maybe just clarify a bit my questions as the research progresses. According to the NTSB report, the autopilot was turned on and off several times, but the final maneuver was performed without the autopilot. How difficult would it be to learn how to use the autopilot? Since he had never been on a 757 simulator, could he have learned it from text books, etc? He had been on a 737 simulator, is there much difference in using the two, or are they basically the same?

Since he did fly the final portion of flight, the big question I have is, if by all accounts he was not a good pilot, and had never flown a jet before, could he have practiced this on some kind of computer program? Maybe he just practiced this final part over and over and was able to perform it correctly, in spite of the difficulty?

The final approach, at a very low altitude and high speed (460 knots) apparently is beyond the VMO, how would this effect his ability to reach the Pentagon at that low an altitude?

Finally, what would the feeling be like when he turned off the auto pilot and took the controls, if he had never flown a jet before? What would be an apt comparison?


Thanks again for any help.

[PPL Hobbyist]

Hello CactusLand,

I have searched for final reports on NTSB and FBI websites for years and I cant find a thing.

No data could be extracted from either CVR or FDR, so this leaves us pretty much guessng what really happened on the flight deck: Conversation, speed, control inputs and other useful information, as far as I know.

The best information I could find are at: American Airlines Flight 77 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77#Cockpit_voice_recorder)
The only other information that I could find about it was a national Geographic documentary here: Seconds From Disaster S01E13 Pentagon 9/11 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tzg-tJY5YY)

I am not an airline pilot, but I am a pilot, and I will tell you this; IMO Flying into a building at high speed is a lot easier than lining up a plane, slowing the plane down and landing softly on a runway. I think somebody with very little flight experience could have hit the Pentagon.

I have my doubts that Hanjour learned how to fly just on a computer game. He must have taken some lessons on a real plane, a training plane like a Cessna 152, 172, Piper PA38 or something like that to get familiar with how a plane really handles and feels. MS Flightsim can't teach you that. How else would he have known how to identify the transponder or how to turn it off or put it into standby? MS Flightsim doesn't have that functionality to the best of my knowledge. Maybe other flight simms do? I don't know.

I think, thanks to our beloved internet, he could have found a photo on one of many web sites that show photos of the centre radio stacks behind the throttle quadrant on a 757/767, and figured from those where it is, and how to turn it off/standby. He might have even found a tutorial on how to do it! All I know for sure about this crash is what is in the links I posted above.

Since there is no data from the plane, I can only guess that he would have flown the plane manually.

Happy researching :)

[CactusLand]

Thanks for the links, I did find the NTSB Report,,

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc02.pdf

http://intelfiles.egoplex.com/2001-09-16-FBI-Penttbomb-Hanjour.pdf

There is another FBI pdf that fills this out, but I only have the pdf.

And the FBI report on Hanjour's training

Here is a review of his training condensed from the FBI report and the trial of Moussaoui

Hani Hanjour - Training and Planes

Total Flying Hours
As of August 17, 2001 - 600 hours logged.

Planes Flown
Cessna 172 (single engine)
Piper PA-28 Cherokee (single engine)
Piper Apache PA-23 (twin engine)

Simulators
AST 3000 30 hours
737 – 70 hours
Sawyer Aviation Simulator – Max. 5 hours

Schools
Sierra Aeronautical Academy Airline Training Center fSAAATC)
Oakland, CA 94614
12 hours in 1996

Cockpit Resources Management CCRM)
Scottsdale, AZ
9/29/96 - 11/26/96 - 4 months
12/12/97 - 12/19/1997 - 5 days
Arizona Aviation
Mesa, AZ
12/29/1997 - 04/15/1999 - (1.5 years) Received – FAA issued Commercial Pilot certificate #2576802
12/13/2000 – 12/15/2000 – 2 days

Pan Am International Flight Academy,
aka Jet Tech International
Phoenix, AZ
737 Training
02/01/2001 - 03/28/2001 - 2 months
02/21/2001 - Jet Tech International issued a certificate certifying that HANJOUR had
Completed 60 hours of Boeing737-200S systems Ground Training.
70 hours in 737 simulator

Final Evaluation

“student [Hanjour] made numerous errors during his performance and displayed a lack of understanding of some basic concepts. The same was true during review of systems knowledge….I doubt his ability to pass an FAA [Boeing 737] oral at this time or in the near future.” The 737 instructor concluded his evaluation with a final entry: “He [Hanjour] will need much more experience flying smaller A/C [aircraft] before he is ready to master large jets.”

Air Fleet
Teterboro, NJ
05/29/2001 - 05/31/2001
One flight with instructor, after which instructor refused to allow him to repeat the Hudson flight solo. Somehow, according to FBI, he does fly later with one of their planes, but accompanied by someone, not a pilot, in a Cessna 172 “HANJOUR made an error
taxing the airplane upon his return. That was the last time {they} saw him”

Sawyer Aviation
Chandler, AZ 85226
6/23/01-7/29/01 Member of simulator club (not clear if he actually did use the simulator during this period, or whether his name was put on the log by another student)

Caldwell Flight Academy
Fairfield, NJ
06/6/2001 – 7/20/2001
Rented Piper Apache PA-23 (twin Engine) on four occasions
and a Piper PA-28 Cherokee (single engine) on one occasion

Freeway Airport
Bowie, MD
08/16/2001 – One flight class
08/17/2001 – One flight class

Instructors evaluation (from FBI report):
..reviewed Hanjour's flight log and interviewed him extensively about his flight training and experience. She then refused to approve a current license rating until Hanjour returned for more training. Interestingly, both Ms. Baxter and Mr. Connor considered Hanjour to be a poor pilot, while Mr. Shalev considered Hanjour to be a "good" pilot. (only Mr. Shalev testified for the 9/11 commision)

Congressional Air Charters
Gaithersburg, MD
08/20/2001 One flight class on a Cessna 172 with EDDY SHALEV , Isreali citizen, who testified at for 9/11 commission, stated that ““Hanjour successfully conducted a challenging certification flight supervised by an instructor at Congressional Air Charter of Gaithersburg, Maryland, landing at a small airport with a difficult approach. The instructor thought Hanjour may have had training from a military pilot because he used a terrain recognition system for navigation. Eddie Shalev interview. (Apr. 9, 2004)”
08/26/2001 1 hour and 50 minute solo flight, presumably in a Cessna 172
08/28/2001 2 hour flight lesson in a Cessna 172 (last time he flies before AA 77 on 9/11)

[CactusLand]

Thinking about this part of the story, one very basic question comes to mind, and so far, it is the one that most bothers me, but maybe that is simply due to lack of understanding of flying. I should stress that I will use the NTSB info here, my goal is the present the official version as they present it, and let the reader decide how possible it is.

At 9.34 AM Hanjour is at 7,000 feet 3.5 miles south south west of the Pentagon, and he begins a 330 descending turn to the right, three minutes later, he is at about 2000 feet 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon For a large portion of this descending turn, he is blind to the target, moving at speed of 350? 400? knots? I have never flown a plane, but I used to survey, so here is the dilemma I have, how did he turn the angle, as we used to say. Could he have used instruments to accomplish this, or did he have to 'feel' it while at at least a minute blind to the target? This part is extremely confusing for me.

Once again, thanks so much for you patience and help.

[Intruder]

Somebody likely provided him with the Lat/Long and altitude of the Pentagon, and he put them into the FMS as a navigation waypoint... Then he follows the flight director. Might even be on autopilot!

[PPL Hobbyist]

Only a pleasure, Cactusland.

I am afraid, I have to disagree with Intruder that somebody gave him co ordinates to the Pentagon and he programmed them into the FMC as a way-point on these grounds:

1. It has been said earlier that he had very few hours flying and found to be incompetent to fly solo by 2 out of 3 instructorsafter a total of 4 hours flight? (In South Africa, you need at least 20 hours flying with an instructor before you go solo). Laws in other countries may be different. I don't understand how they were testing him for solo after 3 or 4 hours flight.

2. He had only flown small single engined training planes like the ones other people and I described in earlier posts. They don't have auto pilot, and they certainly don't have FMC. At least not the ones I have flown and currently fly.

3. Having no training on anything like a Boeing 757 I doubt that he would have had any idea how to program co-ordinates into an FMC. With all the years I have flown small aircraft recreationally, I wouldn't have a clue where to find the FMC, let alone program it on any commercial airliner.

This is what I think: In the few flight training sessions he had, he must have had some situational awareness training and doing co-ordinated turns. IE: finding a location on the ground, then doing a 360 degree turn, and putting the nose of the plane on the same spot again.

If you look at the flight path in the NTSB report you can see that he was flying pretty much south east. To line up and hit the Pentagon, He must have seen it on his right hand side, and then started his 330 degree turn and descent to almost south. That would have had to have been done manually, but an NDB or VOR beakon might have helped if they had one there.

That is worth researching! Did the Pentagon have a VOR/DME, NDB there???? Can anybody answer that? All he would need to do is tune in VOR, NDB and hello Pentagon, or should I rather say, bye bye Pentagon! All he needs to know is what the frequency is. Every plane I have flown has VOR/DME, NDB and CAT1 ILS capability. (Instruments, not autopilot) He might have known how to do that.

[Intruder]

With 20 hours of systems training in the 737 and 70 hours in a 737 simulator, I am confident he'd be able to enter a simple Lat/Long waypoint into the CDU. Just because he couldn't fly an airplane or pass the Systems oral exam, doesn't mean he couldn't do the ONE thing he HAD to do to put the airplane into a spot...

[PPL Hobbyist]

Please tell me then Intruder, where would he have learned to enter the co-ordinates into the CDU? Where would he have got anywhere near a 737 simulator, let alone the real thing with only 4 hours flight to his name? Yes, he put it in the spot alright, I just don't think he would have or could have used the FMC to do it as you said.

Pentagon 9/11 - Google Books (http://books.google.co.za/books?id=wfhI5oc41sMC&pg=PT269&lpg=PT269&dq=VOR+Pentagon&source=bl&ots=1GdPUDKIkZ&sig=7A0M194KR5VMO9WAJ3Hxk2oaPE8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CezhUojnOfGf7gbqlYDwDQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=VOR%20Pentagon&f=false)

The above document seems to indicate that he was using VOR, which I think I think he would have been more familiar with. Incidentally, I did a little digging around to see if the Pentagon had a VOR based there, and to my horror, I found that it has. AirNav: KJPN - Pentagon Army Heliport (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KJPN) . The above NTSB report however, doesn't indicate that he used it if it existed at the time. Regardless, with DCA (Which he did use) being only 1.3nm from the Pentagon, that was more than enough to guide him almost streight to it.

[MrSnuggles]

Dear CactusLand.

Your blog seems a bit concerning to me. What is your incentive to these questions?

Anyway. From a material/design perspective the Boeing 757 is designed for loads much above the stated maximum loads in the data sheets. This is common practice for any fast moving object, including cars and elevators. Thus, the airplane in question could very well have withstood fast and tight maneuvres during short periods of time. And this is enough for any suicide hijacker - they don't care about safe landings, they care about hitting the target.

I do agree about some instrument confusion though. Per the FBI report (to be downloaded from FBI official homepage FBI ? September 11th (9-11) Commission Report (http://vault.fbi.gov/9-11%20Commission%20Report) ) it seems Mr Hijacker wasn't that proficient in his 737 training and notes from his instructor makes it clear Mr Instructor was not impressed with either aviation English nor airplane handling and recommended much more experience in small airplanes before returning to the 737. While that may be the case for a serious aircraft devotee, Mr Hijacker might very well have learned enough to turn off a transponder and wiggle the yoke enough to crash a plane.

I am impressed that Mr Hijacker managed to actually crash it into the Pentagon at all. From the few pictures of the impact the aircraft is coming in fast and low. Mr Hijacker had to fight some serious ground effect for keeping the plane in the correct attitude all the way through the lightposts (lightposts have been known to make serious damage to aircraft, see Southwest 255 for an example...). Or maybe he was inadvertently using ground effect. I don't know. Anyone knows about the ground effect on fast and low 757's?