Night Flying in the US

[mark_c]

Hi guys,

I'm wondering if someone here could clear something up for me. I am an EASA PPL holder travelling to Florida in the next 2 weeks to carry out some hour building. I know that there is no such thing as a Night Rating/Qualification in the US, so I presumed I would be able to fly at night after a checkout with an instructor over there, as I do not have an EASA Night Rating on my License yet.

I have been in touch with two schools about the hour building and one of them says I can rent their planes for night flights once I have completed a checkout with them.... The other school says I can't fly at night because my FAA License is strictly based on my EASA License and I must have the rating on my EASA license first.

My question is, which school is right? Has anyone been in a similar position?

Thanks!

[7of9]

Way I understand it is, if you don't have night qualification on your EASA licence then no you cannot night fly in USA.

You need the five hours training & sign off on your EASA.

Did you think that you would know it all after an hours check ride?

:ugh:

[mark_c]

When did I say I would know it all after 1 hour? I would do the check out for as long as it took for me AND the instructor to be happy I was competent to fly at night. You don't even know it all after doing your PPL... You're always learning, so go bang your head off the wall all you want.

[7of9]

No need to be like that!

Check ride implies an hour! Sorry I misunderstood your question!

You need the night qualified on your EASA licence!

Won't bother helping people in future if that is the sort of Kurt reply I would get.

Have a happy vacation. Hope you get to night fly!

[BackPacker]

It kind-of depends on what licence you're going to use to fly. You have a couple of choices.

You can get an FAA Student Pilot Licence which doubles as your FAA Class III medical. As a student, you'll fly under the oversight of your instructor, but the hours will be PIC hours anyway. If your instructor is happy with your night performance, he or she can sign you out to perform night flights. But as a student, you won't be able to carry passengers.

You can get an FAA 61.75 "piggyback" PPL, which is "based on" the validity of your EASA PPL. All limitations of the EASA PPL apply, including the "no night" restriction, which will only be lifted after you get the EASA NQ or IR. It is technically possible to add ratings, such as the IR, to a 61.75 FAA PPL, but as the FAA does not have a concept of "night rating" I don't think that's going to fly (pun intended).

You can also get a standalone FAA PPL. You will obviously need some additional training to get to the five night hours and the number of landings, and maybe some other stuff. Then you need to do the FAA written (which is a single exam) and the FAA skills test. This then gives you an independent FAA PPL to which you can add other stuff such as an IR. And obviously in this PPL the capability to fly VFR at night is implicit.

One thing to watch out for is the medical though. On an FAA 61.75 "piggyback" PPL you can either use the relevant FAA medical (class III) or use the medical associated with the underlying licence - in your case an EASA class II. But for an FAA standalone PPL you need an FAA class III medical, and the same thing applies to your student licence.

Oh, and example one and three most likely require TSA clearance, whereas example two (the FAA "piggyback") does not. It can even be argued that for example one and three you need an M-1 visa.

[Maoraigh1]

If you're flying on a 61.75 FAA licence, issued on the basis of your EASA PPL, it will have the same restrictions as your EASA PPL. If your EASA PPL includes the privelage of being exercised at night, so will your 61.75 FAA PPL. If not, your 61.75 FAA PPL will have a restriction to day only.
(My present 61.75 allows night flying - I previously had one restricted to day.)
I doubt if the US school can do anything to alter that situation in a short time.

[mark_c]

7of9, apologies, I didnt mean to come across like that.. The confusion obviously lies in our interpretation of the checkout.. In no way would I go and do anything flying related if I wasn't confident that I was competent enough to do it safely. Thanks for you help.

Backpacker thanks so much for your reply that has cleared it up completely!

[7of9]

Mark, no problem, as you said seems to have been a misunderstanding. As I said a check ride to me is an hour with an instructor.

Backpacker has given the comprehensive answer that you would need, I gave the basic quick answer on the knowledge that I was blessed with:ok:

[mary meagher]

marc, glad to see you had second thoughts about getting your back up.

As flying at night in the US is an absolute delight, it is well worth paying an instructor over there to gain the qualification and the experience. Think of all those instrument approaches you can do without extra fees. Think of turning on the airfield lighting yourself, by just pushing the PTT. Think of landing at Key West by night.

Also, night flying has the advantage of fewer idiots floating around getting in the way.... just you and an enroute controller who actually has the time to talk to you. They welcome light aircraft in controlled airspace, as they know who you are and what your intentions are.

Enjoy!

[mark_c]

Thanks guys, the school I'm going to for my hour building does not do EASA training, there is a school not too far from them that I could do the EASA night rating while over there, but will I be able to use the privileges of the NR immediately or do I have to wait until it is entered onto my license..ie after all the paperwork etc.

[hoodie]

If you plan to do an EASA Night Rating whilst in the US, you'll unfortunately need to jump through the TSA security hoops.

If you're not aware of those, the AOPA US pages (http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Flight-Instructor-Resources/AOPAs-Guide-to-TSAs-Alien-Flight-Training-Citizenship-Validation-Rule.aspx) are a good place to start.

It takes a while, so suggest you look into it early!

[mark_c]

Ah yes, I never thought of that! More hassle than it's worth I would think. I'll try get it done here before I go. Thanks

[david viewing]

One minor complication is that the US private licence requires night cross countries of 100 mi or so, something that would be difficult to do in UK when virtually every airfield is closed. I suspect this might affect the night aspect of a based on licence even with a night rating.

[BackPacker]

Ah yes, I never thought of that! More hassle than it's worth I would think. I'll try get it done here before I go. Thanks

That's probably not early enough. It takes a while before the CAA will have added your NR to the licence, and only once that's done can you initiate the 61.75 process. Which in itself might take a week or two.

I'd plan on at least four weeks between finishing the practical requirements for the EASA NR, and your flight to Florida to pick up the FAA 61.75 PPL and start hour-building.

As I said a check ride to me is an hour with an instructor.

Actually there's a bit more to it than that. It's formally called a BFR - Biennial Flight Review. It's a rolling currency requirement: You have to have done a BFR in the last two years otherwise your licence is not valid today. This applies to both 61.75 PPLs and standalone PPLs.

BFRs are conducted by regular instructors - you don't need an examiner and it's not an exam which you can fail. It consists of an hour ground school and an hour in the air minimum, and as such is typically a bit more involved than what we Europeans understand to be a "check ride". Only once the instructor is satisfied with your performance he/she will annotate your logbook, and you're good to go.

So once you've picked up your shiny new 61.75 PPL, don't expect to just fly a few circuits before you're being let loose. The rules require a full BFR (two hours total).

It's probably wise to think about what *you* want to achieve in these two hours. There are some marked differences between the US and Europe, and you may want to focus on these specifically. Especially R/T procedures ("flight following" vs. "basic service", "unicom"/"CTAF" frequencies at uncontrolled fields) are different, but you may also want to read up on stuff like "0800-WX-BRIEF" and maybe the FAA flight plan form.

[Katamarino]

"flight following" vs. "basic service"

The difference here being that flight following is actually useful :E

[dublinpilot]

That's probably not early enough. It takes a while before the CAA will have added your NR to the licence, and only once that's done can you initiate the 61.75 process. Which in itself might take a week or two.


I don't think you're correct there.

My part 61.75 licence doesn't mention anything about Day/VFR even though that would have been the restriction on my licence at the time that I got it. It simply says that all restrictions and limitations of my Irish licence apply. As I see it, once a restriction on the underlying licence is removed, then it's not caught by that phrase.

Also the poster give their location as Ireland. While they might have a CAA licence if they did their PPL in the USA, they probably have an Irish IAA licence. The IAA are actually quite helpful despite the fact that we all like to complain about them ;)

If he rings them up and explains, they most likely will add the rating while he waits if he calls into their public office. They certainly did that for me in the past on more than one occasion.

dp

[BackPacker]

DP, I certainly hope you're correct and that the IAA is indeed a lot quicker (and cheaper) than the CAA.

I've been trying to get an IMC rating added to my UK-issued JAR-FCL PPL for well over six months now. The average e-mail response time of the CAA is 40 days (based on a sample of two queries, and only after a reminder e-mail sent after 30 days on each occasion). Furthermore, everything I do seems to trigger something else at this stage, and everything costs money too.

(The IMC rating addition triggers a conversion to an EASA PPL, which triggers the need to transfer my medical from the Dutch to the UK authorities and triggers the requirement to add the aerobatics rating. So far I'm up to 7 different forms and 275 UKP in costs - and counting.)

[mark_c]

Yes, I checked it out with the FAA - the Airmen's Cert that they give me based on my Foreign License has the same restrictions as the foreign license, but if a restriction is lifted off my foreign licence (getting a night rating) then the restriction is lifted off the FAA license as well without having to reapply. In simple terms - I can get my FAA cert now while holding no night rating, but as soon as I get the night rating on my EASA license I can fly at night in the US, no need to reapply or contact the FAA.

And yes, it's an IAA license I have and I also find the licensing department to be very helpful when you need a favour done. I'm sure if I asked nicely and explained the situation they might stick the night rating onto my license quicker than normal.

Thanks for the replies :ok:

[tonyc182p]

You are doing well to get a response from the UK CAA. I have had my application in since Septermber and they dont respond to any of my emails. Even their complaints line dont respond. And if you ring, they arent at their desk and they dont call back.

Re the piggy back licence why not get a stand alone FAA licence. You can get condensed courses (I am based in Daytona) of 2-3 weeks , its alot of fun and you can rent a c172 with a gns430 for $100/hr wet !!. Once I got hooked into the USA system I gave up flying in the UK and finally moved here!.Night flying here is awesome with some many airports available, many with pilot controlled lighting. Flying up Daytona Beach at 500' is a blast.
The schools will help you sort out the TSA etc.

[Ebbie 2003]

If you have a piggyback FAA PPL it is not good for flying at night in the US unless the licdnce on which it is piggybacked allows night.

We all know someone who has flown at night without their UK licence allowing it, maybe been checked out - but it is not legit; to a US school a PPL without night makes no sense so easy to see why they get it wrong sometimes.

What is proposed it to let someone loose to fly at night with no training.

[caroberts]

One minor complication is that the US private licence requires night cross countries of 100 mi or so, something that would be difficult to do in UK when virtually every airfield is closed. I suspect this might affect the night aspect of a based on licence even with a night rating. I did check up on this and was advised that if you have night priviledges on the foreign licence, you do not need to meet the night training requirements for the FAA private certificate. If you were getting a full FAA private certificate based on flying experience, then you would have to have done the 100 mile night cross country.