Weight Cessna or Piper

[uniandpilot]

Want to go for my first lesson tomorrow

i weigh 15.5 stones
which aircraft will be suitable

the cessna 152
or the piper pa28

[RTN11]

PA28.

some words to make it 10 characters.

[uniandpilot]

thanks for your quick reply

:ok:

[Big Pistons Forever]

Depends on the weight of the instructor. If you get some slip of a girl you could still use a C 152.

BUT and this is a message for everyone starting out to learn to fly, just be wary of the dirty little secret of flight training. Flight school C 152's are frequently flown at weights above their legal maximum with every one turning a blind eye.

If you do decide on a C 152, which is a fine training aircraft and cheaper than a PA28, I would insist that on your first lesson you ask the instructor to show you how to calculate the takeoff weight for your flight. If the number is bigger than 1670 pounds, the maximum certified takeoff weight for this airplane, the plane is not legal or safe to fly.

If as is quite likely to happen, your instructor tells you "not to worry about it" than it is time to find another school.

[uniandpilot]

thanks for the that. will ask the instructor that

[garrya100]

The PA28 will give you some more shoulder room. Two regular guys in a 152 is cosy....

[Vitesse]

PA28 is cosy enough, mind.

And I've got a petite lady instructor.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yes PA28.

Once you have your licence, it will actually give you the ability to legally take other people flying, with reasonable elbow / baggage space. You may as well therefore learn in it.

The C172 (basically a 4 seat C152) would also be fine. Even better the much nicer C182, although you're unlikely to find one in many flying schools.

G

[TractorBoy]

Personally I'd go for a 152 as it's a lot cheaper. You can convert to a PA28 after learning in about 2 hours - this can save you as much as £1000 over the course.

I was a similar weight when I did my PPL, and I was given a very slightly built instructor. The only problem I had was when doing my test, the examiner was heavier and there were only a few 152s I could use (out of a fleet of about 15).

[Exiled Martian]

Personally I'd go for a 152 as it's a lot cheaper. You can convert to a PA28 after learning in about 2 hours - this can save you as much as £1000 over the course.


^^^ Me too mate, from a fiscal point of view that approach made total sense. I endured the wrath of a very cosy C152 cockpit (at one point was sharing this confined space with a tall 6'5 instructor in crappy weather doing windy circuits :eek:) for the better part of ~50 hours during my PPL training. Decided to checkout on every SEP that my school had to offer after though as I needed something roomier to accommodate PAX & those lengthy Nav exes that you will need to be doing in order to fatten up the log book post PPL :ok:

Hope the lesson was a good one today ? & by good I mean you remained feeling puke free throughout your hour? I remember my first lesson ever was quite scary in the sense of serious self doubt i.e basically, the instructor who took me up was very 'WWF' like in his handling/ controls input in the flimsy C152....as a result I was naturally left in a sickly state when we landed. From there I naturally began to seriously question my ability to learn to fly & kept thinking how long till I bloody get 'accustomed' to the rougness of flight training :( Turns out I wasn't the only one who couldn't 'stomach' his flying & things felt/got much smoother after (did my first 6-8 hours with him) his absence from the RHS:)

[The_Pink_Panther]

Would anyone like to offer their opinion on how much consolidation should take place, post test, for a 152 pilot to do the conversion to a Warrior, then an Arrow?

I say "then an Arrow" in terms of stepping up in terms of cruise speed, a wobbly prop and retracts.

(Just in case someone goes there, I specificly wrote "how much consolidation", as I believe it's about what you do in the hours, not just the hours you do)

TPP

[uniandpilot]

Went with the C152 overall

weather was good but then clouds came in half way though the lesson

instructor was very good gave me a lot of control

Exiled Martian

puke free but very scary, need to get use to the contorls

will be going for a piper lesson to see how good it is

[OhNoCB]

TPP,

I think this really depends on the instructor/school/club. Back when I did this they were happy with a good discussion on the ground about systems and procedures (and gotchas for someone coming from a C172 as it was) followed by a flight consisting of a small amount of general handling, some slow flight and stalls, 1 PFL I believe (to see the difference for field selection in low wing) and then into the circuit for a couple of normal circuits, 1 without flaps and a glide approach. This was all done in 1 day (after having spent some time reading the POH previously).

[Genghis the Engineer]

Would anyone like to offer their opinion on how much consolidation should take place, post test, for a 152 pilot to do the conversion to a Warrior, then an Arrow?

I say "then an Arrow" in terms of stepping up in terms of cruise speed, a wobbly prop and retracts.

(Just in case someone goes there, I specificly wrote "how much consolidation", as I believe it's about what you do in the hours, not just the hours you do)

TPP

A lot of it will depend upon the qualities of the pilot.

I agree that 2ish hours to turn an okay C152 new PPL into an okay PA26-161 pilot. If they have poor flying skills more, if they are very good, less.

An Arrow has three major differences - (1) speed, (2) VP prop, (3) retractable gear. None of those are difficult as such, but take acclimatisation time to be routinely managing them without making a mess of things. I'd hope as an instructor I could cover all that and get an "okay" PPL up to speed on the Arrow in half a dozen hours, but as I've not actually tried, and it'll depend massively upon the student, I'm guessing.

G

[garrya100]

About 5 hours is required to turn a competent PA28 driver into a P28R driver. Generally about 2 hours dual then 2 hours solo circuits followed by a checkout.

The VP and gear systems aren't difficult to master, it's really only the differences between the types that need to be mastered.

The greater performance of the Arrow means that you need to be aware of your circuit position as you can be at circuit height long before you need to turn downwind. Also with the gear up the Arrow gains speed much quicker than a PA28 if you let the nose drop, so you need to be aware of the correct attitude.

You need to put power in as the gear comes down to stay flying level, otherwise she starts to come down at 500ft min. On the other hand if you're doing a straight in approach you can set up straight and level at 80knts, drop the gear and you're on the descent profile.

Glide approaches with gear out and prop full fine come as a surprise to first timers, in this configuration the Arrow has the glide performance of a brick! With the prop full coarse glides are just like a PA28.

Flapless approaches are easier when you realise that with a VP prop you can pull the power back and it acts like a speed brake.

Apart from being a little busier in the circuit everything else is standard PA28. If you fly it to the numbers it's very easy and makes you look good. If you don't fly the numbers it lets you know it's not happy but it doesn't bite unless you get it seriously wrong.

[glendalegoon]

garry, some nice points about the arrow.

one thing often missed in a checkout is how to get into trouble during cruise. your cruise speed is faster, you are often higher and going farther. good to review oxygen requirements esp in the turbocharged arrows.

also to recall the gear over ride for short field takeoff efforts, you can really make her jump! especially if you calculate the short field numbers/speeds.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Noting that the OP is in England - turbocharged Arrows are incredibly rare over here, and opportunities or reasons to fly over FL100 pretty much as rare. A reasonable concern in some parts of the world, but rarely so here in Blighty - more's the pity.

Coming back to the original question - the C152 is an excellent training aeroplane, in some ways better than the PA28, but I'd still maintain that somebody who learns in something as close as possible to what they'll then be flying as a PPL, will probably fly it better.

G

[garrya100]

Good points,

Mine is a non-turbo so is most efficient at 8500-9000 feet, the turbos critical height is 14000 feet standard or 17000 feet with an auto waste gate fitted. A turbo arrow can cruise at 20000 feet which is well into oxygen territory.

My auto extender has been removed (thank goodness), but there are many reports of the gear falling out at the wrong time, well worth covering if the Arrow you are converting to has this "feature".

The other thing I forgot for first timers is the need to carry with a trickle of power through the round out, otherwise it tends to arrive nose first. Hold the attitude as you close the throttle, and she'll stop flying at 60knts and gently touch down.

On the other hand if you're too high as you go through 60knts, you end up with a firm arrival!

And I agree with Genghis, did all my training in the Arrow as that was the aircraft I was going to fly.

[glendalegoon]

IF you plan to fly a cherokee (of any kind) after you get your ppl, it is a wonderful idea to learn from day one in that type of plane.

Having taught in both, I've noticed that people progress faster in the cherokee series for the following reasons:

1. comfort. it can get quite hot during summer flying and the cherokees have optional air conditioning.

2. fewer bangings of head on wing while doing the walk around inspection.

3. Almost never having a fuel shortage problem as it is very easy to visually inspect the fuel on a cherokee without having to climb up on a wing strut like the 152.

4. Checking the stall warner is much nicer on the cherokee.

5. Very little chance of pilot falling out of plane in the cherokee.

6. More payload in cherokee vs 152.

:-)

[Maoraigh1]

1. comfort. it can get quite hot during summer flying and the cherokees have optional air conditioning.

3. Almost never having a fuel shortage problem as it is very easy to visually inspect the fuel on a cherokee without having to climb up on a wing strut like the 152.

4. Checking the stall warner is much nicer on the cherokee.

5. Very little chance of pilot falling out of plane in the cherokee.



1. I've never seen a Pa28 with air conditioning for rent even in the SW USA
3. At 72 I've no problem checking fuel in a C152 - if you're that unfit you'll have a problem climbing across to the LHS in a Pa28 - one door.
4. Not a problem for me - and the C152 warner will still work with total electrical faiure, while the Pa28 won't.
5. I've never heard of a pilot - or anyone else - falling out of a C152. For a suicidal pax it would be as easy to do from a Pa28.

[uniandpilot]

im planning to stick with one aircraft through and after my ppl.

will try the piper next and see which one i like and i will stick with that

[glendalegoon]

maorigh1

if we want to nitpick, if there is an electrical failure in the PA28, you don't lose the flaps.

IF we have an electrical failure in the C152, you are flapless.

I've rented many cherokees with air conditioning. They are quite nice.

UNI: good luck, happy landings, and I think you will like the cherokee better.

Its easier to do the walkaround check of the engine too!