CPL-H +IR+ATPL Exams

[TimTooWindy]

In Nov 2004 I completed my JAA ATPL-H theory examinations and qualified as a CPL-H in June 2005{No IR}. To date I have been a VFR pilot but would like to aim for a career in the North Sea{Min Req- CPL-H +IR+ATPL exams}.

Firstly, I need to pass the 4 exams below so I can qualify for my IR training.

CAP 804-Section 4-Part L Appendices: 4.2 states the following:

4.2 An applicant for an IR(H) having passed the relevant theoretical examinations for an

ATPL(H) VFR is required to pass the following examination subjects:

– Air Law

– Flight Planning and Flight Monitoring

– Radio Navigation

– IFR Communications

However, after contacting the UK CAA to verify my course of action I was quoted Section 4 Part L 3.6.

3.6 An applicant for an ATPL(H) with an IR(H), having passed the relevant theoretical

examinations for a CPL(H) is credited towards the theoretical knowledge requirements

in the following subjects:

– Principles of Flight (Helicopter)

– VFR Communications

I have passed the 13 ATPL-H exams rather than the CPL-H exams?. Does the CAA response mean that if I want to pursue a North Sea career I will need to resit all of the ATPL-H theory except P of F and VFR Comms?.:ugh:

Any feedback is much appreciated. Thanks in advance

TTW

[Bravo73]

Paco is probably the best person to ask.

Essentially, your ATPL exam credits have now expired (it being 9 years ago, without an IR). Under the old JAR system, the number of exams that you would've had to retake would have depended upon the JAR Amendment that was currently in force when you first say your exams. I suspect that you might have got away with just retaking the IR exams.

However, under EASA, I think that has all changed. In order to get ATPL credits (which, basically, there's little point flying on the NS without), you will have to resit most of the ATPL exams again. Your only consolation is that they are much easier the second time around. (As long as you have kept all of your old notes!)

[Martin1234]

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/529010-exams-needed-easa-ir-h.html

[paco]

That's actually not coreect - here is how we see it:

After the introduction of the new reduced CPL(H) theory course, the combination no longer equates to ATPL(H) theory. To gain the ATPL(H) with IR if you have a post-Amendment 3 JAA/EASA CPL(H), you must take 12 exams out of the 14 required - you will be exempt POF(H) and VFR Comms. If you just want the ATPL(H), you are exempt air law as well.

However, it is our opinion that, if you have a CPL(H) issued under JAR FCL Amendment 3, that is the equivalent of the ATPL(H)(VFR) in terms of theoretical knowledge - paragraph 2.050(b)(10) refers. This credit was carried over into Part FCL. In addition, Article 4(1) of Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 refers to JAR compliant licences being deemed to be Part FCL licences. The legal definition of "JAR Compliant" licence is in Article 2, which refers to licences, ratings, certificates, authorisations and other qualifications issued or recognised by a State, reflecting "JAR and procedures". We interpret this to include ATPL(H) TK credit.


Phil

[TimTooWindy]

Bravo 73- Thanks for the feedback......I hope you are wrong.

Martin- Yes I did research that thread before contacting the UK CAA, that gave me the information to submit to the CAA to verify my course of action re exams.

Paco- Thank you for the detailed explanation. What's my next move please?. Contact the CAA and quote your explanation so that I can have it verified?.
I do not want to gain and IR-H to be then informed I have no ATPL-H exam credits.

Regards.
TTW

[apb]

You have to know if your course was done under the amendment 3. I don't know how is in UK but in my country that information is provided by your school.

I think Bravo 73 is wrong too...I think that ATPL (H) VFR don't expire.

Best regards.

[Bravo73]

Bravo 73- Thanks for the feedback......I hope you are wrong.

I probably am. I am a long way outside of that loop these days.

[paco]

Exams lasted for 7 years in those days <fx: swings lamp :)>

But - you have a CPL issued, which, based on the length of time looks to be an amendment 3 licence, which is now an ATPL(H)(VFR). Your next step would certainly be to contact the CAA quoting the rules above. You need their answer in writing to guard against the very circumstance you mention.

I believe you need to speak to Barry Mooney.

Phil

[TimTooWindy]

Phil

Many thanks again. I will reply to the CAA's last correspondence and detail the information you have kindly supplied and wait on a reply after "10 working days".

Regards.
TTW

Ps- Using the FCLWEB address and for the Att Barry Mooney.....will that be enough or use another address for this chap?.

[Martin1234]

But - you have a CPL issued, which, based on the length of time looks to be an amendment 3 licence, which is now an ATPL(H)(VFR).

I understand that if you took the CPL exams, depending on which amendment, that might mean that the theory will equal to ATPL(H) VFR.

However, if you took the ATPL(H) exams and made sure to have had a valid type rating at least once every 7 years, doesn't that always give you at least the ATPL(H) VFR credits?

[paco]

It does - and the exams are valid as long as you have a type rating (helicopters only)

Phil

[Martin1234]

It does - and the exams are valid as long as you have a type rating (helicopters only)

So in TTW's case, I assume that it doesn't matter under which amendment he did his ATPL exams.

[paco]

Yes, it does. If he has a post-amendment 3 CPL(H) he has to take 11 exams. This is because the new CPL(H) has a lower academic standard

phil

[Martin1234]

Yes, it does. If he has a post-amendment 3 CPL(H) he has to take 11 exams. This is because the new CPL(H) has a lower academic standard

Cpl(h)? He wrote that he took the ATPL(H) exams, not CPL(H) exams. I know that they lowered the standard for the cpl(h) exams but he never took them, he took the atpl(h) exams..

Or are you trying to say that ATPL(H) theory with lapsed ir could be worth much less than CPL(H) theory that was taken at or before amendment 3? Sounds strange.. I believe that I read somewhere that ATPL(H) with lapsed ir equals ATPL(H) VFR theory if a valid type rating has been held at least every 7 years.

[Martin1234]

This has been discussed before. I don't think that TTW has to worry about under which amendment he took his exams as he took the ATPL(H) exams. Have a read through this.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/514812-uk-ir-exams-running-out.html

[paco]

If he took the Amendment 3 exams for the ATPL(H) without doing the IR, type rating or multi crew or didn't have the hours, he gets issued with a CPL(H). It is not an ATPL(H) with lapsed IR. It is only an ATPL(H) VFR because the Amendment 3 CPL(H) has been granted equivalency under the rules stated above.

phil

[Marc123]

Hi

Interesting read, I'm in the same position though not going to do my EASA in the near future as quite happy in the Gulf...however here is my position:

JAA CPL(H) issued under JAR-FCL in 2010 - at the time, I did 14 ATPL JAA Exams.

4 years down the line, I haven't done the IR(H)....Hence exam credits expired. JAA CPL(H) will expire in 2015 (not converted it to EASA).

If I want to get my EASA ATPL down the road...what will it take, i.e which exams??

Also, I have Qatari ATPL and intended to transfer this to EASA ATPL under LASORS G3.5 and previously JAR-FCL 2.280. I.e ICAO ATPL to EASA ATPL..all requirements other than the exams have been met with my current flight experience.

Thanks whoever can advise

[paco]

If it is an amendment 3 licence you should just be able to refresh it with 4 exams for the IR. If not, 11 exams :(

In doing that you should be able to convert the JAA one to an EASA one in one swift stroke (of course, money will be involved).

The Qatari licence will only really give you the ability to self-certify for the 14 exams - but you would be very unwise to do that given the state of the question bank.

LASORS is not valid any more.

phil

[TimTooWindy]

Paco- Thanks.Although not doing an LPC every year due to overseas commitments, I never went more than 3 years between keeping my type rating current in the UK, well within the 7 years max.

Martin- Thanks for the recent link. During my thread searches prior to my first posting, I never encountered that particular one which certainly answers all of my questions.

Regards.

TTW

[chester2005]

@ Paco, a silly question, but how do you know / where can you find out what amendment your exams were taken under/ licence issued under?

Chester:ok:

[paco]

generally speaking anything over a year or so ago, but the best people to ask are the caa

phil

[RVR800]

The IR Exam requirement for CPLs wil change soon see

http://aopano.files.wordpress.com/20..._ir_v1-4-1.pdf

[RVR800]

Apologies see this link inctead - see flow charts

http://www.pplir.org/images/stories/pplir_files/GA_IR_v1.4.pdf

[apb]

Paco, the "reduced" CPL(H) arrived to UK with the PART-FCL or with the amendment 6 JAR-FCL?

[paco]

No idea - all I know is that Amendment 6 changed everything

phil

[TimTooWindy]

PACO

I'm very relieved to have had a response from the UK CAA, which confirms I was initially wrongly quoted CAP804 Section 4 L 3.6 instead of confirming 4.2 {4 exams to complete for IR-H}which caused the confusion. However, Mr B Mooney's reply was both very prompt and detailed and he explained my current status regarding my ATPL theory credits. I'm very pleased with this outcome.:D

Below is an extract from Mr Mooney's letter, hopefully this may help a fellow pilot in a similar situation in the future:


I have reviewed your personnel licensing records and can confirm that you completed the ATPL(H)IR theoretical knowledge examination under UK CAA interim arrangements (JAR-FCL 2 amendment 3). The information in your email is almost correct, however I should clarify a couple of points. Since the of JAR-FCL 2 Amendment 6 and subsequent implementation of the EASA Aircrew Regulations, the IR(H) is no longer implicit in an ATPL(H), with the introduction of the ATPL(H) VFR only. This has had a beneficial consequence for pilots such as you. This means that the IR(H) and the ATPL(H) theory credits have been separated and each has its own validity period. These validity periods are set out in Part-FCL.025(c), which I have highlighted below in clarification:

FCL.025 Theoretical knowledge examinations for the issue of licences

(c) Validity period
(1) The successful completion of the theoretical knowledge examinations will be valid:
*************
(ii) for the issue of a commercial pilot licence or instrument rating (IR), for a period of 36 months;
(iii) the periods in (i) and (ii) shall be counted from the day when the pilot successfully completes the theoretical knowledge examination, in accordance with (b)(2).

(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that licence.


Therefore, while your IR(H) theory credits have expired, your ATPL(H) theory credits remain valid for 7 years from the most recent type rating on your licence. This would permit you to upgrade to an ATPL(H), conditional on satisfying all the ATPL(H) experience and testing requirements, however you would be restricted to VFR only.

Regards.
TTW

[paco]

Result!! :)

phil

[apb]

Glad to know that you got a positive solution in less than a week, I've been fighting with my CAA for three months now and I didn't get a solution yet to a very similar problem...maybe I should change mi CPL(H) to your country to get a solution :ugh:

[paco]

You wouldn't be the only one....

Phil

[apb]

I know my case is not exactly the same as this but I'd like to write down it here because maybe there are someone in the same situation or similar that could help me.

I did my JAR CPL(H) in Spain, I started it in november 2009 under amendment 3 (the course was aproved by our CAA as a CPL(H) amendment 3 and I have a written certificate from the school with this information). In January 2010 started the amendment 6 in Spain and I did my CPL(H) theory exams in 2010, after my six months theory clases, and finished my CPL(H) course in 2011.

Four months ago I sent a letter to my CAA to get a written certificate, I want to have in paper that I have the ATPL (H) VFR because I am a CPL(H) amendment 3 so in my case is aplicable the JAR FCL 2.050. The answer was negative, they told me that I did my exams under amendment 6 so the JAR FCL 2.050 is not applicable to me.

I have sent another letter explaining that my CPL course is an amendment 3 course and I fulfill all the requirements, both theoretical and practical, for an amendment 3 course but the answer was negative again, they told me JAR FCL 2.050 is not applicable to me again.

I don't know what I could do, maybe if I change my license to another country it could be easier to resolve?, or my CAA is correct and the JAR FCL 2.050 is not applicabe to me due to I did my exams under the amendment 6?. If I don't get a positive answer to my problem I have to pass all the exams again (less two) to get the ATPL (H) VFR and this is a lot of money and time!

Sorry for my English is not my native language.

Best regards

[paco]

Did you not finish the exams under Amendment 3? If not, then they would appear to be correct.

Phil

[apb]

Here comes the problem Phil, I think I finished my exams under amendment 3 but they don't think like me.

One of the big changes, at least here in Spain, with the amendment 6 was the general navigation exam. Under amendment 3 the general navigation and radio navigation exams are together (two parts in the same exam and the result is an average between both) and under amendmet 6 the general navigation and radio navigation are separate exams for a CPL(H). I only did one exam like in the amendment 3' exams.

I have a certificate from my CAA with the results of my exams and the exams that I passed to get my CPL(H) if you are interested.

Regards.

[paco]

It is confusing when you say you took the exams again in 2010, or was that the first set?

If you did indeed take the exams for amendment 3, then they are wrong, but Spain didn't really get JAA compatible let alone EASA.

Sounds like it might be a good idea to change authorities. The vital bit would be the date on which you to9ok the exams and when they changed over to amendment 6.

Phil

[apb]

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I started my ICPL( Integrated) in november 2009 (under amendment 3) and after 6 theory months I took the exams, in june and september 2010. The amendment 6 started in Spain in january 2010 but my course and sillabus were approved under amendment 3 in 2009.

Regards.

[paco]

In that case, they would appear to be right.

phil

[apb]

Thanks a lot for your answer Phil, I'm not glad to hear It but seems I have to start all over again to get my ATPL(H). :ugh:

Regards.

[paco]

At least you are exempt POF and VFR Comms

phil

[apb]

Phil, could you tell me how many exams you have to take for a CPL(H) amendment 3 and for a CPL(H) amendment 6?, I couldn't find it.

I have seen the JAR- FCL 2.470 was modified with the amendment 6 so for an ATPL(H)VFR you have to take 13 exams and for a CPL(H) you have to take 9 exams. I did 12 exams because general navigation and radio navigation was together as you can see in the Apendix 1 JAR-FCL 2.470 amendment 3.

I think that here is the key, if I can prove that I did amendment 3 exams they should give me te ATPL(H) VFR, or maybe if I was under the amendment 6 the exams taken by me are the same as you can see in the (a) JAR-FCL 2.470 amendment 6.

Regards.

[paco]

It was 9 for Amendment 3 and 13 for Amendment 6.

The regulations I posted above detail how they are transferred.

Phil

[Ready2Fly]

The 'funny' part of this ATPL(H) theory crediting is (or was), that -in germany- even those received a written confirmation of ATPL(H) theory credit from their local CAA (LBA) when the exams were taken pre JAR-FCL (in germany that was 01.05.2003).

I.e., eventhough they obviously did not meet the criteria of JAR-FCL 2.050 (b)(10) but rather 2.050 (b)(8), they were credited with ATPL(H) theory.

LBA reasoning: Pre JAR-FCL there was no distinction between CPL and ATPL exams. So: One fits all. Others call it grandfathering rights.

I wonder whether other countries did the same... :rolleyes:

[TimTooWindy]

Phil
One more question please: In my situation with 4 IR exams to complete, do I need to use a training organisation that has IR-H approval?. The exams I will sit are IR-H rather than ATPL. My previous training provider does not have the IR-H stamp.
Second time around for the exams, is there an exemption from an approved course?. Is it best to ask Mr Mooney for advice?.
My question is regarding the theory only.....not the practical part of the IR.
Thanks in advance.
Regards.
TTW

[paco]

You still need an IR provider, and there are no exemptions from an approved course.

Ready2Fly: LBA reasoning: Pre JAR-FCL there was no distinction between CPL and ATPL exams

That's correct - the only difference between the CPL and ATPL was the amount of hours involved

Phil

[chopperchap]

If you already hold an icao atpl you can get an exemption from doing an approved course as far as I'm aware!!!

[paco]

With 1000 hours multi-crew, I believe, but you would be very unwise to take the exams without preparation

Phil

[chopperchap]

All you need to do is hit the question banks, no need to spend a couple of grand on a needless course that teaches stuff you don't need to know, also don't think you need that much time!!!

[paco]

Rubbish.

The CAA have changed the answers and/or text of at least 5000 questions, so the banks are pretty much useless for anything but revision, except for one or two subjects that they haven't got round to yet, such as law and ops.

Ask anyone who has tried to take POF(H) over the last 6 months.

And it's not the course or the provider that is responsible for stuff you don't need to know, take that up with the twits who set the syllabuses. For an IR-H TK course he will only need £795.

Phil

[TimTooWindy]

Phil

Thanks for the info: "For an IR-H TK course he will only need £795". That's a distance learning course plus a 3 day brush up course before the exams?.

I am aware of the question banks value but I would not risk attempting the exam based only on their revision. No doubt I will need a signature from my approved training provider on my exam paper to confirm I attended an approved course....right?.

Regards.
TTW

[paco]

Exactly right, especially as the IR exam contains some FW questions in the Flight planning.

PM me for further details

phil

[SARWannabe]

Apb - under an integrated course did you not take the ATPL exams instead of the CPL? If not, why not if you wanted to eventually gain an ATPL?

[apb]

when I got my CPL integrated course in Spain you only could do:

-CPL integrated (if you did this under amendment 3 or before you got ATPL VFR theory).
-CPL + IR integrated (no ATPL theory).
-ATPL/IR integrated (it included ATPL + IR + MCC...too much money for me at that moment).

The problem came now because I want to do my IR course and get the complete ATPL/IR theory but it seems I have to take twelve exams instead the four if you have a CPL amendment 3 (I have a CPL integrated approved under amendment 3 but in the midle of my course arrived the fu:mad:ng amendment 6).

[wolverine1]

Hi guys

Am new to this so hope I'm not jumping into the wrong thread as I am in a similar position to apb.

I'm hoping Paco is the man to help me out.
I need to upgrade my JAR CPL H to EASA ATPL H.

I hold a JAR CPL H + IR, plus all ATPL H theory credits and have done since 2012. I fulfilled all the hours requirements at the time to get an ATPL H, apart from the multi pilot hours.

I now have the multi pilot hours, from working abroad.
I know I need an ATPL H skills test, which I can source but what I don't understand is the following:

FCL.515 Training Course and Theoretical Knowledge Examinations
(a) Course. Applicants for an ATPL(H) shall have completed a training course at an ATO. The course shall be either an integrated training course or a modular course, in accordance with Appendix 3 to this Part. (Refer to 1.5 Additional Information.)Section 4 Part F, Subpart 2 Page 2

Is this for the course for the exams that I have already sat ?

That is the question.

Paco, if you're the man, do your stuff !!!

Many thanks in advance.

[helimutt]

just to throw the fuel on the fire, do you still require the 100 night hours before being eligible for atpl(h) attempt and issue?

I just remember the hassle I had, having to resit 7 exams because of the old 36 month validity thing, and then night hours which were impossible to get at the time, because of the nature of the job I did.

[paco]

An amendment 3 CPL(H) is the equivalent of the ATPL(H) (VFR) under FCL-3 as adopted by Part FCL, but it depends who you get in the CAA. Some have only taken 4 exams, some have to take 12. It would appear that the CAA have not adopted the EASA ruling about amendment 3 licences.

phil

[SMOKESKI]

Hi, sorry I know this is an old thread....

So I am just about to take my Mod 2 ATPL (H,IR) exams, the last 6 of a total of 14. Presuming I pass these like I did Mod 1 (August 2014) am I right in saying that I will then have 36 months to complete my IR training?

And if I do NOT gain my IR within that time my theory exam credits last for 7 years after the date of my last type rating, but will only be under ATPL (H) VFR?

Am I right that once I have passed the theory exams and completed and passed my CPL (H) training and Skills test this summer, even after the 36 month IR deadline lapses I will have CPL (H) indefinitely.

The reason I am wondering is when I decided to go ahead with the theory exam I thought I might aswell do the ATPL (H,IR) so if I either get the opportunity or have the money to pay for an IR I can go ahead and do the training. Paying for it myself is looking highly unlikely and getting a company as a low air time pilot to pay for it is never going to happen. I obviously still want to work as much I as can (Charter, Instructing and so on) to gain hours.

Essentially what I need to know is if my IR 36 month deadline lapses will I have to retake any of the theory exams to continue working in a CPL (H) VFR capacity?

Sorry for the long reply

Thanks for advance any help....

[ersa]

You will always have a cpl you passed a skills test, your expired exams IR will have to be taken again to allow you to sit a IR skills test

You realise you have 18 months to complete the 14 exams from the start of the first exam( end of the month of the start of the first exam)

[SMOKESKI]

Thanks Ersa, good to know.

Yes I am aware of the 18 month time frame. All being well I will pass these last 6 in 2 weeks, so done in under a year.. juggling a full time job has meant a lot of late nights... nearly there, or at least this the theory part, then the real hard work starts :)