You just thought you where the PIC

[noneya]

Chew on this one for awhile. The ground monkeys are now going to tell you when you do and don't need de-icing! " they are trained in this decision making":ugh:




Dear Sirs,

Lately we have faced a number of PIC refusals to the de-icing procedures and agreement for carrying out such a procedure only upon Vnukovo flight safely inspector’s arrival.
We’d like to closely draw your attention to the fact that in the circumstances when parking time of transit aircraft is 1-1.5 hours after the flight corridors at temperatures up to - 50 C, under these weather conditions, the discreet transparent ice crust can form on the cold wing, disruption of which can lead to the ice hit into the engine air intakes, damage to the engine blades and their failure during the aircraft takeoff. And this is also one of the factors which reduce the flight security level.
From our side we kindly ask you to inform the crews on the responsibility for making decisions on the aircraft departure which condition does not comply with ICAO Doc.9640-AN/940, and on the need to fulfill the requirements of the aeronautical authorities of the Russian Federation:
- Letter of instruction of Rosaviation dated 05.02.2013g № 03.10-7 (Recommendations for the protection of aircraft from ground icing, section 3.4) "If there are snow and ice deposits on the aircraft critical surfaces, and the crew abandons de-icing procedure, the responsible person for the aircraft departure must immediately inform the safety inspection.
The PIC should not make a decision on the aircraft departure without anti-icing procedure in case there is a report from the responsible person, that there are snow and ice deposits on the aircraft critical surfaces, except when it is allowed according to the aircraft manual.
-The Guideline of Rosaviation from 31.05.2013g. № 03.9-26, p.3.7.5 "To exclude the practice of aircraft de-icing procedure refusals based solely on the decision of the crew not to conduct such a procedure."
The specialists of the Center of Business Aviation Vnukovo-3 Ground service are all certified for the de-icing procedure conduction including decision making for aircraft de-icing procedure in case of non-conformity of the critical surfaces with the clean aircraft concept.


Best Regards,

Natalia Shelegeda

Clients relations manager

"CCAS "RusAero", PJSC



mob.:+ 7 903 523 82 42

tel., fax + 7 495 7555604 (ext.153)

[FrankR]

A whole lot of staff time went into writing that one, and perhaps they get promoted based on the number of words they use. That said, it looks like they are saying "play it safe out there, when in doubt, deice".

Just may save an aircraft or two from crashing on takeoff. Have you ever seen the video of the 4" of snow blowing off the wing of a 'bus on takeoff....

- Happy that I'm in Turks this month!!

FR

[His dudeness]

Not mentioned is, how much the responsible, trained person will get for every liter of fluid sold to you.

To exclude the practice of aircraft de-icing procedure refusals based solely on the decision of the crew not to conduct such a procedure."

All well intended. I guess.

But then I´d like to have personell doing the deicing as I order it, and - e.g. - NOT fill my APU intake to the brim with their stuff after spending 10 minutes with diagrams, hand and feet explaining that this is the APU intake and should not be sprayed...

[CaptainProp]

The PIC should not make a decision on the aircraft departure without anti-icing procedure in case there is a report from the responsible person, that there are snow and ice deposits on the aircraft critical surfaces, except when it is allowed according to the aircraft manual.

It's called DE-ICING when "there are snow and ice deposits on the aircraft", not anti-icing.

This is nothing but BS. If we don't need de-icing and I'm told by a "responsible person" that we do, then he is paying for it as well.

CP

[Big Pistons Forever]

As I read this the intent is that pilots who refuse to deice can now be overuled by flight ops and be forced to get the airplane sprayed before takeoff

Given the cowboy culture of Russian airline ops. remember the video of the A320 taking off with a foot of snow on the wing :rolleyes:; If I was a passenger on a Russian jet (although for me that will never happen), I would be happy that ground crew could force the pilot to deice as the Russian pilots have demonstrated on numerous occasions that they do not have the personal discipline to operate safely.

[EatMyShorts!]

Wow, that happened to me recently at VKO 3! Our plane had been parked in the hangar. I had asked them to tow us out just before we would go to prevent any accumulation of snow on our wings. When we were ready for startup I made a final outside check and also touched both wings. As it was snowing really, really slightly we had a few tiny frozen droplets on our outer wings, the rest was clear and clean. As we were about to flip the engine start switch a guy from the ground staff came waving and made some gestures that we would have to de-ice. I denied that and even disembarked quickly to talk to him. He did not speak a single word of English. I told him that we are the flight crew and that we are ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight and that it is not his decision, but ours. He would not give up. They would not let us go, they were keen to make some money. Our handling agent finally came by and translated. He told us that they had orders to not let anyone go without de-icing in active snowfall. To cut this nonsense short I agreed to a Type I only de-icing, but they also refused it and insisted on a 2 step de-icing/anti-icing with Type IV. There's nothing you can do, in Russia you don't have any power to decide in Russia, it was shocking. Bloody bastards.

[Empty Cruise]

Well, with the taxi-times VKO 3 has on offer, especially for 19 departures, declining an anti-ice doesn't strike me as the smartest move in the business. Hell, we've even de-iced - and then, with snow being forecast, added Type IV as the taxi-time at that point was hovering around the 40-min mark.

A lot of weather can change in 40 min, and having to taxi back will make you look like a douche to the punters...

...but somehow I suspect that this wouldn't have been a problem.

It's their train set, folks - if you want to fly there, you play by their rules. If this comes as a surprise and infringes on budgets... well :rolleyes:

[EatMyShorts!]

It is not about the budged, at least not in my outfit. It is simply about being necessary or not. Actually our taxi-time was 9 minutes until we set take-off thrust on runway 01!

[Empty Cruise]

EMS,

Point taken - although I must admit to subscribing to "clean-means-clean" and "any precip = anti-ice". Cannot be bovvered to be the one that has to decide exactly how much light snow is too much light snow. Call me lazy :(

[CaptainProp]

It is simply about being necessary or not.

Exactly, and together with my colleague I decide if its necessary or not! Its not about the costs as such, if we need de-icing we request it.
At the same time its also my job to make sure we are not wasting money just because some "responsible person" comes along and tells me to.

CP

[EMB170]

When you turned up 10 years ago, had 20cm of snow on the wing and you asked for deicing, they looked at you with bewilderment and asked, what you want deicing, why???
I guess i prefer it the way it is now to be honest!!

[FrankR]

Are you including your "ground based colleagues" in the deice process? This is all that is happening here...

If you get defensive when you explain your decisions, or when others "check your work" then perhaps you need to evaluate if your standards are high enough, and if your motivations are pure.

>just sayin'

FR

[CaptainProp]

For me the decision to de-ice or not is a matter of the survival of my colleagues, passengers, and more importantly, myself. That's pure enough for me....
These people in Moscow don't check our work because they have any standards or because they actually know what they are doing. You can take my word for it.

CP

[Deep and fast]

Actually I have found the guys at VKO3 fairly good over the last 2 years I have been based there.
Russia, if you try to fight it you will lose.


I think winter is late this year.

[EatMyShorts!]

Don't get me wrong there: when they de-ice, the VKO-crews always do a professional job on my plane, no question about that! It's simply about the decision to de-ice or not. In the situation I felt that verbal fighting was not getting us anywhere, but I cannot just give up, I had to argue at least a little bit.

[3 Point]

Well, to me this seems to say that if the ground crew think a pilot has declined de-icing when he should not they have a safety mechanism in place to do something about it.

With pilots who say "As it was snowing really, really slightly we had a few tiny frozen droplets on our outer wings..." but they still don't want to de-ice, I'd say they are quite right right to introduce this new policy.

How does "a few tiny frozen droplets" meet a clean wing concept?!?

How does light snow fit with a decision not to anti-ice.

If that's typical of the pilots they see in Vnukovo then it sounds like their new policy is spot on!

[EatMyShorts!]

Hey Mr. 3 Point. You were not there, so you cannot judge the weather conditions and you don't know the type of aircraft that I fly. So please refrain from judging our decision.

[Pace]

3 point

Somehow I smell a rat. And its called money? i had about 9 feet of ice and snow on a Citation wing from the roots out so yes we required deice!

When the truck arrived I was told they had a minimum deployment amount so by the time they finished we had the aircraft dripping tip to tip and nose to tail and about 2/3 more deicing fluid than we wanted or needed with a large bill!

My guess is this regulation is being used to generate work for the deicers! no gripe if its a genuine requirement but sometimes more a genuine requirement for cash in the tills.

Pace

[AN2 Driver]

Maybe they had just too many accidents and close shaves and now decided to make de-icing sort of compulsory. Clearly, most crews will have enough common sense and self preservance to de-ice in any case of the slightest doubts, never the less in recent years there have been too many who did not. So I reckon, while it is a measure which rightly offends those who always did the right thing in this regard, it might safe a few others from their own stinginess or stupidity.

[redsnail]

Let's hope Aeroflot and Transaero at Domodedovo also have their a/c de-iced too. :ugh:

[EatMyShorts!]

We is biiiiig airline from the Russia, we do not need the de-icing: ????? ?? ??????????? ??? ????????? ???????? - YouTube

[Deep and fast]

I have flown tranaero many times and can't fault the service and operation so far.

D and F

[3 Point]

Hi Eat My Shorts

You say "You were not there, so you cannot judge the weather conditions" which is true but, in the previous post you said " it was snowing really, really slightly we had a few tiny frozen droplets on our outer wings". I based my remarks on your statement!

You also say "you don't know the type of aircraft that I fly" however I see from previous posts that you mention Excell, EMB145 and Falcon 2000. I don't know which of those you were flying on the day of course but I do know that aircraft of this class typically mandate "clean wings" before departure!

My question was simply to ask how you can consider falling snow and frozen droplets on the wing as meeting a "clean wing" policy. Based on the information you have given us and assuming that you are flying an aeroplane which requires a "clean wing" on departure, my judgement is that your decision was flawed. If you don''t want others to judge your decision then don't include it in a public discussion!

Pace,

I agree that there is a cost motivation but, I guess it's just the cost of doing business in Vnukovo!

3 Point

[Pace]

Pace,

I agree that there is a cost motivation but, I guess it's just the cost of doing business in Vnukovo!

3 Point

Never been to Vnukovo ;) my three times what I need was elsewhere with the excuse that they were geared up to Airlines and had a minimum dispense quantity which would do half an A320 not a tiny little Citation.

looking at the A320 they deiced before me I was tempted to park under the wing and catch the deicing fluid free :E
As it was I was dripping so much deice fluid that on the takeoff roll I am sure i deiced half the runway :E

Pace

[FrankR]

Aside from the "clean wing" issue, which I believe is mandated on all aircraft, the other issue I see that disturbs me is a few pilots here advancing the cost containment argument.

Now sure, I can hear pilots screeching like an old turbojet, but the truth is gentlemen, that we need to always stand up and say "this is what it costs".

Cutting corners on training, operations, salaries, and maintenance is a losing game. After a few rounds, you'll be staying in a Accor hotel, eating crackers, getting minimal training, and then someone will call and ask "can't you guys buy a broom and get that frozen snow off".

Our catering bills most often exceed the daily rate of our flight attendant. While we most often toss 80% of the salmon pate, we are always asked to shave off the pay rates, but no one ever says cut back on caviar.

Accountants hate you already, you'll never change that, so do your job and sleep well.

FR

[g450cpt]

I don't think the real issue is about the budget. I think most pilots that are in the position to fly $50 million+ biz jets are more worried about self preservation than they are about saving a few thousand dollars. The real issue here is taking away our decision making authority. Let me ask you, do you want the ground handler looking over the weather and second guessing your fuel load, your alternate, or the route you filed? The most important person on the airplane to me is me. If I need to deice, I will make the decision to deice and what type to use. I don't want someone that may be getting a commission the amount of deice fluid they sell, trying to tell me that I need to deice. That is what my principal pays me for. Yes there may be a few inept pilots out there that are too scared of getting an a$$ chewing for spending a few bucks, but don't punish the rest of us for their mistakes. To the pilots that think this a good policy, let me know how you feel when the government tells you where to live, what to do for a living, whom to marry, how many babies to have because you are not intelligent enough to make those decisions on your own. Let the bombardment begin.

g450cpt

[Kelly Hopper]

Ooooo the irony! Russian authorities forcing western crews to de-ice? :confused:

In the meantime I have lost count of the number of times I have witnessed Aeroflot fly with ice contaminated surfaces when everyone else is being de-iced!

Get your own house in order Russia before you try to fix ours. :=

[3 Point]

"Ooooo the irony! Russian authorities forcing western crews to de-ice? "

Well, maybe they are forcing everybody to de-ice as a mechanism to catch all the non-professional crews; everybody tarred with the same brush!?!

I thought the old fashioned "I'm the captain and I'm right, don't want to listen to you" attitude had gone from 21st century professional aviation; looks like it has survived in the dark reaches of our community somewhere!

If a de-icing crew in a cold and frost country recommends to me that I should de-ice I'm going to think long and hard before I override that recommendation. Even if I think I don't need it, I have to allow the possibility that I might be wrong.

If he's wrong and I'm right then I de-ice when it wasn't necessary; if I'm wrong and he's right then we just avoided an accident. I prefer to err on the safe side.

3 Point

[3 Point]

FrankR,

Right on the money! We have to guard against incremental erosion of standards; if it's not right it's not right, end of story!

3 Point

[redsnail]

Transaero in summer? No issues and until that flight two winters ago I had no issue with them in winter either. However, they took off with ice on the wings. I did alert the FA and well... the flight crew just told her to tell me that the controls are ok and roared off... :ugh:

[His dudeness]

We have to guard against incremental erosion of standards; if it's not right it's not right, end of story!

And how do you guard against being ripped off ?


I´m all for deicing a frozen airplane, even though 'my' Cessna contraption just cost 17m$ I want to come home unhurt, but I still use some brain cells. And that has NOTHING to do whatsoever with:

the old fashioned "I'm the captain and I'm right, don't want to listen to you" attitude

[Empty Cruise]

You guard against eroding standards as follows: What does the book say?

1) Is there a 'few frozen drops' on the wings? What does your book say? De-ice, no??

2) Is it 'snowing very, very lightly'? What does your book say? Anti-ice, no??

This issue far, far far outweighs being ripped off. We're professionals, that means abiding by a certain ethic, upholding standards and doing things not only in a safe, but also approved and legal manner.

How do you guard against being ripped off? Simple - when you have applied your safe, approved and legal decision making - i.e. no contamination on the wings, and no precipitation falling - then you tell them that a de-ice is not necessary. If they persist, you call your supervisor over, ask for the resident safety inspector to attend as well and inform your handling agent that you will accept the de-ice under duress and that an official complaint will follow. Record names, times, what was said when and by whom, the lot.

However, have never been asked to de-ice / anti-ice when it was not required, neither in VKO or elsewhere. Have, however, on several occasions had to struggle to get the aircraft de-iced when the crews in their wisdom couldn't be bovverd to heat the rig up for a single departure at oh-christ-hundred in the morning.

As long as the minimum standard of being able to understanding and following the rules to the letter hasn't been met, I cannot take seriously complaints about wiser (or at least more compliant) people overriding your decision-making. Yes, I am absolutely 99.9% sure that departing in the conditions described without de- and anti-icing would have been safe - and thank eff we'll now never find out if that 0.1% chance would have left you with any change.

When you have done it all by the book and they still charge you - then start complaining!

[3 Point]

Very well put Empty Cruise!

It can never be a "cost or safety?" debate; only safety first then economy.

3 Point

[Pace]

Now sure, I can hear pilots screeching like an old turbojet, but the truth is gentlemen, that we need to always stand up and say "this is what it costs".

Frank R

I take the point you are making but with a concern. Its all very well if you fly some very expensive hardware with a budget to suit but some of us fly bottom of the pile business jets where the owners are cost aware and loading too many costs could get to the point that the jet is considered too expensive to keep.
i feel that yes it costs what it costs but you have to deal with things as if they are your own and your own money.
do you catch peak time trains or try and schedule for off peak or do you think your going first class because in the scale of things first class is a drop in the ocean? I am sure you get what I am saying.
Yes safety is paramount but it bugs me when three times the deicing fluid needed is poured over the aircraft and charged for because they claim to have a minimum dispense volume or if you feel as an experienced pilot that the jet does not need deicing but someone sees £££s and tells you it does.
Should that determination be judged by a non pilot or by a qualified Captain?
Its a bit like hospital administration staff telling a consultant surgeon how to operate ?

Pace

[doubleu-anker]

Do not underestimate the effects of contamination on flying surfaces on aircraft.

"Attempting to get airborne with any contamination on the flying surfaces of the aircraft, you immediately become a test pilot"

As no two cases of contamination are the same, then watch out.

Someone has mentioned cost of deicing. Well I call that commercial pressure creeping in, right there. The old story, if you have to think about costs in this business you shouldn't be in it as an owner. You as Captain must be certain one way or another, all surfaces have been deiced. That is your job.

So if the authorities of the country you are a guest in, decides to hit your aircraft with deicing fluid, then it cant be all bad can it?

At least if you do prang on t/o you can't be blamed for attempting to get airborne with a contaminated a/c.

"Aerodynamics is a highly developed science, so don't pioneer"

[BizJetJock]

Yes, it amazes me how many captains think that their authority runs to overruling the laws of physics. :ugh:

[3 Point]

BizJetJock,

That made me laugh; I may use it in some of my future classes.

3 Point

[172_driver]

How about if the "snow" is actually somewhere in between rain and snow, and turns into aqua as soon as it hits the wing because OAT is +2 and the wing might be even warmer from having been in the hangar all night. Don't fall for the commercial pressure, but surely captain's discretion would be appropriate in such a scenario rather than blindly listen to what some ass-covering de-icing crew is trying to tell you?

Same discretion that's being used when HOT table says 20-40 min and after 23 min you have to decide whether to accept take-off clearance or not.

[FrankR]

The short answer is that I blindly de-ice (your term) if there is anything slush like, slurpee like, or frosty like on the wing, or if I think something may develop. Some of my considerations are temp, trends, wind, moisture on runway, fuel tank temp, and time from closing the door to takeoff. I especially deice if I have done a quick turn and it is below 10c, as the fuel will almost always be colder than -10.

The law for the G550 is as follows:

01-30-10: General
Icing conditions exist when the Static Air Temperature (SAT) on the ground
and for takeoff, or SAT in flight is 10°C (50°F) or below, and visible
moisture in any form is present (such as clouds, fog with visibility of one
mile or less, rain, snow, sleet and ice crystals).

Icing conditions also exist when the SAT on the ground and for takeoff is
10°C (50°F) or below when operating on ramps, taxiways or runways
where surface snow, ice, standing water or slush may be ingested by the
engines or freeze on the engines, nacelles or engine sensor probes.

Takeoff is prohibited with frost, ice, snow, or slush adhering to the wings,
control surfaces, engine inlets, or other critical surfaces.

A visual and tactile (hand on surface) check of the wing leading edge and
the wing upper surface must be performed to ensure the wing is free from
frost, ice, snow, or slush when the outside air temperature is less than
42°F (6°C), or if it cannot be ascertained that the wing fuel temperature is
above 32°F (0°C); and

· There is visible moisture (rain, drizzle, sleet, snow, fog, etc.) present;
or
· Water is present on the wing; or
· The difference between the dew point and the outside air
temperature is 5°F (3°C) or less; or
· The atmospheric conditions have been conducive to frost formation.

[172_driver]

FrankR,

Yes, I agree with all you say and the conditions are the same for my type. But even considering temp, trends, wind, moisture on runway, fuel tank temp, time till T/O, the assessment can vary considerably from pilot to pilot based on previous experience.

A friend of mine (first officer) and his captain was failed on a line check for not de-icing when in the opinion of the checker they should've de-iced. Interestingly they were told they'd failed first after landing at destination, meaning the checker did not intervene and ordered de-icing himself. Apparently not fearing for the safety of the ship. This for a well known European carrier, no dodgy Russian carrier in darkest Siberia.

Edit: wording, story

[doubleu-anker]

Also a good idea to remember that approximately 2/3's of lift produced by the wings of an a/c comes from the top surface of the wings. So, as we all know there is a huge pressure therefore temperature differential between wing top surface and ambient. That temperature drop has a marked influence on whether visible moisture blows or runs off or sticks. That change can happen within the blink of an eye.

The more experience we get in this or any other business, teaches us we don't know all the answers and never will.

Properly applied deicing fluid of the correct mixture and observing the limitations, never killed anyone to my knowledge. Lack of deicing under the influence of commercial pressure for e.g., has killed a lot of people. Had to prove in post accident investigation i'm afraid.

If we are honest we have all been influenced by commercial pressure sometime in our careers. It is also one of the biggest killers in aviation and air experience is one of the few weapons we have to make a stand against it.

[Pace]

How about if the "snow" is actually somewhere in between rain and snow,

Snow forms around a speck of carbon in the atmosphere and is a specific frozen formation! There is not such a thing as between rain or snow. Sleet is not snow ;)

Snow in its true form will not stick to an airframe it will compact if blocked by an intake etc but will not stick to a wing. If it hits a surface which no longer retains its structure as snow IE melts and refreezes that is a different matter.

Me just being pedantic :E

Pace