Senior Officers and UK Senior politicians may face accusations from Iraqi prisoners.

[Hangarshuffle]

The Guardian today.
British politicians and generals targeted in Iraq abuse case | Law | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jan/12/iraq-war-crimes)


Seems like this has been going on for ages, but the lawyers at PIL aren't letting go, and seem determined to bring people to book or to answer their accusations. The trail goes up the ladder (for a change).
Concede this concerns the Iraqi abuse claims in UK custody etc. and is of limited interest to flyers (I suppose).
But its pretty unprecedented for the UK. Only in Britain do these things seem to happen*.


* By that I mean how police and military are put under the microscope so much now, more now than ever in my lifetime. Or maybe we aren't as decent, as compassionate or as honest as we think we are?

[Rosevidney1]

The fine upstanding British lawyers smell money...........

[Hangarshuffle]

PIL seem a small scale operation. Not big time charlies by lawyer standards.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Isn't this how small parasites get to be bigger parasites, though. I wonder if the Shiner clan considers itself to be of the small Charlies.

[BEagle]

The dossier says "those who bear the greatest responsibility" for alleged war crimes "include individuals at the highest levels" of the British army and political system.

Highest level of the political system? Wouldn't that include Bliar?

[Pontius Navigator]

Teflon Tone?

[brakedwell]

No way will that treacherous swine be called to account!

[Hangarshuffle]

Well I think Blair's star is in the descent. I believe one day the truth will out, in the course of time. I'm sure we will see him in the dock one day - I hope so.Perhaps this action by PIL and others will be part of a system of coming to terms with the full truth, of what's occurred these last 13 years. Two wrongs never made a right.

[Courtney Mil]

I'm not entirely sure why anyone would dignify this rubbish by posting it here. Read "The Fist of God". It's a great book and might help you understand what terror and torture is all about. Get it in perspective before dragging our guys down into the gutter.

Just saying.

[Hangarshuffle]

The gaols certainly existed, I saw them and bet you did to if you knew where to look-horrible looking places. The war happened. Only white people tell the truth? Half witted cowed brown people always lie? Perhaps we should see.
Just watched a brilliant film tonight called Zero Dark Thirty, with graphic torture scenes used by the CIA -those film producers didn't shy away from it - we shouldn't hide from it, we shouldn't be hiding from the truth. What does that say about us if we are?


Me to, just saying.

[rh200]

Just watched a brilliant film tonight called Zero Dark Thirty, with graphic torture scenes used by the CIA -those film producers didn't shy away from it - we shouldn't hide from it, we shouldn't be hiding from the truth.

OMG, its in a film, it must be true.:ugh:

If its in a film then the chances are every thing is exagerated. Thats how the people who make them get you to see there view point. This is even true for so called documentrys these days. The sad fact is, unless you are prepared to do a whole lot of serious research yourself, and try and get data from as neutral sources as you can, your stuffed.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Hangarshuffle. Do you really want see the political head of our once great Nation in the dock as a war criminal? The concept of noses and faces springs to mind. The man was a total twonk. Lets leave it at that, eh? Please; not in front of the children.

[exrivofrigido]

That might have been a film and it might be the figment of someone's imagination.

Whatever Hollywood's take on the CIA's record, it seems highly likely that we (UK) have been up to some very unpleasant things indeed, just as we were in NI, Aden, Kenya, Cyprus, Malaya, WW2 etc. etc. Small sections of the british forces and security services have a long and nasty history in torture (try 'Cruel Britannia', by Nick Cohen for a basic primer) and to deny it makes fools of us all. Baha Mousa, for instance, didn't beat himself to death, nor was his abuse a lone outbreak. The questions at issue here are how widespread was abuse in Iraq (if it was) and how, if at all, did the policies or even tacit approval of senior officers and politicians allow or encourage it. I'd say that's worth investigating, even though I have an instinctive dislike for Shiner and others of his ilk who like to imply that we're all sadists.

Much as this dossier and all it implies horrifies me, to dismiss it out of hand would be yet more damaging. Not being remotely connected to military aviation (except as an occasional passenger and interested observer), I wouldn't normally feel moved to comment, but this is a subject that resonates with all of us.

[Hangarshuffle]

Margaret Thatcher and the Golden Temple: will British Sikhs ever vote Tory again? ? Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/willheaven/100254473/margaret-thatcher-and-the-golden-temple-will-british-sikhs-ever-vote-tory-again/)


Christ sake don't shoot the messenger - I'm only putting up what's in the public domain. Look - yet another story about rum goings on (see link above).
All I'm saying is be prepared to be shocked (or whatever). At least agree or disagree with me that post 9/11 the dogs of war were well and truly released by our side, we invaded them (remember that) and the fallout of that continues and will continue for a long, long while.


Post 9/11 and WMD et al I just no longer think that we are whiter than white, a lot of bad things have happened and just perhaps we (as a country) should tell the truth and reflect upon this.


Its all going to come out sooner or later and the lawyers are aiming up higher this time.

[Courtney Mil]

Ah, yes. Operation Blue Star was well known. As was Operation Golden Rivet in the Royal Navy and Operation Aliens Stole My Brain. Whatever will they find out about next?

[Hangarshuffle]

Well, its a slow burner but God willing, we will see. Here's one for starters, about military officers lying to court (the UK High Court, that is - think about it).
Public Interest Lawyers (http://www.publicinterestlawyers.co.uk/news_details.php?id=337)


By the way, if the prune mods ban me on this, so be it - I will accept that .
Also for the record, I'm not anti British, or anti military - my own record bears that out. I just smell a rat, like many people.

[Pontius Navigator]

If, in training, I am forced to lie face down in whatever, hands tie-wrapped behind me, hooded, and then made to run with a live armed guard across broken ground, is that torture or normal maintenance of the shock of capture?

In that particular exercise it stopped at that point but I can imagine the bearded sandals and no socks brigade calling it inhumane treatment.

[Courtney Mil]

PN, you, like I and many others, volunteered for that. Right? And you know you enjoyed it.

Top tip for human rights abusers and torturers. STOP FILMING WHAT YOU'RE DOING. DON'T TAKE FREEKIN' PICTURES AND DON'T SAVE ANY OF IT ON YOUR LAPTOPS. Same goes for murderers, theives, kidnappers, etc. If you're that stupid, you deserve to get caught.

Just sayin'

[HTB]

I may be over imaginative, but does Hangarshuffle sound a bit like another former contributor - SAMXV - now in self-professed retirement somewhere in France. Similar tone and views to these posts.

Could they be related? Or maybe reincarnated with a new handle?

Just asking...:E

Mister B

[Haraka]

Just exactly when were the old rules relaxed from forbidding servicemen, apart from official photographers, taking any form of personal recording equipment ( including making diaries) into operational areas?

[Basil]

PN, you, like I and many others, volunteered for that. Right? And you know you enjoyed it.
I didn't volunteer for it! I was usually fingered for it when I was away on leave or detachment :*
I only enjoyed it when my cunning plan meant they didn't catch us :ok:

[Hangarshuffle]

Suppose truth outs in the end (or at least versions of it).


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/alleged-uk-link-to-operation-at-sri-harmandir-sahib-amritsar-1984


UK advised India on 1984 Golden Temple attack, William Hague confirms | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/04/uk-advised-india-golden-temple-attack-william-hague)


Stories such as this don't surprise me, knowing and remembering the time in which it occurred, and who was in charge.


What continually surprises me about Prune, guessing the former ranks, ages, experience and yes even wisdom in some quarters on here, is that many posters continually think the UK is whiter than white, above dirty work or doing the wrong thing, ever,ever.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Whereas others seem to delight in grinding it into the mud; given even the flimsiest of evidence and disregard of political slant.

[Hangarshuffle]

Honestly, I don't. But what would, or rather how would you rather have it?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I'd like to have the facts, up to a point (without compromising the beastly things done on our behalf, to our advantage, should that ever happen), but it will never happen because it becomes a balance of those doing it in good faith and integrity without alarming the vote casting squeamish against the factions who would do us harm, for whatever reason and presenting their own shade of reality. That could be foreigners or our own who have "radical" ideals.

2014 might be a good year to consider that.

[500N]

I don't see what the big issue is with the UK Mil advising India back in 1984.
I am sure the UK since 1980 has sent plenty more officers and NCOs around the world to "advise" and or train people from foreign Gov'ts, some who go on to do not very nice things.

It's only the Huggy fluffies who like to stir up trouble and make a big issue of it 30 years later.

As Courtney Mil says "Top tip for human rights abusers and torturers. STOP FILMING WHAT YOU'RE DOING. DON'T TAKE FREEKIN' PICTURES AND DON'T SAVE ANY OF IT ON YOUR LAPTOPS"

[Hangarshuffle]

GBZ good reply, fair enough.

[Basil]

many posters continually think the UK is whiter than white, above dirty work or doing the wrong thing, ever,ever.
I don't think so; we'd just refrain from discussing it in a public forum.