Time to scramble - RAF F4s on QRA

[tartare]

Without intending to ask anything that may still be classified...
Roughly how long did it used to take from getting the Scramble call on the telebrief, to actually calling Judy and being up behind or beside a Bear?
I realise this would be dependent on which airfield you're departing from, and where the target was - so lets say Leuchars and average interception distance/altitude for a target (I have no idea what that would have been).
I have looked online, also watch a few F4 scramble videos, but they seem to be edited, so the climb-in, start up, taxy out, take off sequence is hard to estimate.
Question motivated by nothing more than pure aviation geekery on my part. ;)

[Wensleydale]

Not sure about the F4, but in the Shackleton.....


Normally on 2 hours at home when the call to scramble came in (Buchan MCs never seemed to understand the need for a smooth transition through the alert states). 17 mile journey from home to base in No 2s (even when on QRA we were not allowed to travel in flying kit). Arrive on the Squadron (occasionally after a few minutes waiting at the runway crossing lights) and change into flying kit. Bus to the aircraft, start engines, and take-off followed by the transit north at 160 kts.


I would say that about 4 hours from the scramble call to intercept was about normal (although the Bears had usually gone back west of 30E by the time we got to barrier and F4s not scrambled - the usual response from Buchan was "remain to PLE" while we watched empty radar for a few hours and ate lots of honkers/compo sausages).


On a good crew, you could arrange for your flying kit in its pre-prepared holdall to be taken onto the aircraft by one of the chaps who lived a little closer and you went from car park direct to aircraft and changed into goon suit etc on the taxi out. It usually worked smoothly but we once got airborne in the wee small hours without the second Nav/radio operator who had fallen asleep on the back seat of the crew bus and had been left behind in the change into kit confusion!


It could be a little quicker with a motor cycle (even my little 125) because you could hide flying kit under the waterproofs. My record was from call at home to airborne in 32 minutes, including the 17 mile travel! We didn't have speed cameras in those days but you had to watch out for PC McPlod with his speed gun in the small villages en-route.

[Courtney Mil]

As you correctly hinted at, Tartare, the answer is, very much, 'it depends'. Hooter to airborne was 10 minutes in the UK, 5 in Germany. After that it depends where you start from, where the Bear Bear is and where it's going and how urgent the MC decided things were.

I was scrambled once from Conningsby to intercept a Badger that popped up in the North Sea, so we blasted out there at max chat. On the other hand, scrambled fro Leuchars to meet our friends at the FIR boundary would have meant transiting pretty close to range speed, say 300 kts as there was no point in getting there early and all out of fuel and ideas - remembering that the tanker and Shackleton crews could take a good while longer to get there.

It wouldn't be unusual to take 1:00 to 1:15 from wheels up to ident if we were going northeast of the Faroes.

It wouldn't really make much difference what aircraft you're talking about, the distances for that type of Q sortie remain the same. A bit different for Lightning (the real one, not the new invisible, fake bomber) as it was designed for a quick blast to altitude at relatively short range. That meant that Cold War Q could be more of a challenge - one that they rose to magnificently, I should add.

[ORAC]

"P" (Penetration) time to the UKADR boundary (red line) was calculated as the Bears crossed 30E around North Cape. This varied a little depending on upper winds, but was usually 2:15 mins. If a tanker was available it was ordered from 3hrs to 60mins - except if good int was available it must just be scrambled (it commonly got airborne in less than 1-2 hours.)

Transit time to the edge of the UKADR from Leuchars was around 60 mins (Shetlands); so Q1 would be scrambled 1:15 prior to P-Time, unsupported. The tanker would be scrambled at the same time.

All going well, Q1 would make the intercept at the edge of radar cover (blue line) as the tanker was airborne and picking up Q2 as it passed abeam Leuchars. Q1 would RTB and, as Q2 dropped off the tanker and headed north to continue to shadow, Q1 would refuel and head back north with the tanker. Since the Bears came in pairs, and Foxtrots would split, this allowed a shadow for each and the tanker as a radio relay if they were operating at low level.

if no tanker was available then Q3 would be generated as Q1 launched, Q2 scrambled 60 minutes after Q1 as a replacement, etc etc.

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/vox/images/chapter05/ukadr-map.jpg

[ORAC]

Normally on 2 hours at home when the call to scramble came in (Buchan MCs never seemed to understand the need for a smooth transition through the alert states). If you went through the steps - 3hrs to RS60, RS60 to RS30, Rs30 to CR - it took 3 hours to get them airborne. If you scrambled from 3hrs then the average was between 1-2 hours. Which with the P-Time of 2:15 from the decision to intercept usually meant the difference as whether it was even worth the effort.

[Wyler]

Yep, could always rely on the Shackleton to arrive several hours after the party was over. :ok:

[big v]

Time it yourself ;):

Phantom QRA - YouTube

Crikey, there's some ugly mugs...

Rgds,

Vernon

[tartare]

Gentlemen - thank you, a pleasure as always.
Something learned - I had assumed the Shackleton was purely MPA, ASW.
I had no idea of its AEW role... no offense intended Wensley.
And I'd assumed you'd all be up there for an hour at the most, not several.
Very interesting...
Forgive my ignorance - so the Shackleton gave you a more precise vector to the target - as well as keeping an eye on any other potential threats - the equivalent for the time of an AWACs of sorts?

[BEagle]

Yep, could always rely on the Shackleton to arrive several hours after the party was over.

Not always!

We were once keeping an eye on a brace of Bears, which left the area of interest to the south-west and descended to low level....

Some hours later, a Shacklebomber picked up a contact well to the west heading north, which hadn't been seen by the concrete cave-dwellers. The vector which was called by the Shacklebomber team resulted in a successful intercept, which turned out to be one of the previous Bears on its way back to Mother Russia.

Without the Shack., we wouldn't have been able to make a successful intercept as the geometry which would have resulted from an SOC contact would have yielded a lengthy stern chase and the Sovs would have been well out of the area of interest before we could have nabbed them.

[charliegolf]

Presumably in a more routine sortie, the Shackleton was able to push the radar horizon a few hundred miles east, giving more intercept time?

CG

[Wensleydale]

"Presumably in a more routine sortie, the Shackleton was able to push the radar horizon a few hundred miles east, giving more intercept time?"






Well, perhaps 60 miles on a very good day over-sea only! There is only so much that you can do with a 1943 designed radar in a 1949 designed airframe!! (Probably better than a Nimrod 3 though).

[Courtney Mil]

I drew that, ORAC. Glad it's been used at last.

[Navy_Adversary]

The "Turning away, RTB" was a little presumptious whilst looking at the Youtube video.
"Oh, just a minute, they've turned back again":)

Did no crews ever perform a 'Top Gun movie' inverted photo shot?:8

[Just This Once...]

Reading the numbers on the gear doors at night by the light of an engine in burner just would not have seemed credible enough for Top Gun...

[Wyler]

Not always!

We were once keeping an eye on a brace of Bears, which left the area of interest to the south-west and descended to low level....

Some hours later, a Shacklebomber picked up a contact well to the west heading north, which hadn't been seen by the concrete cave-dwellers. The vector which was called by the Shacklebomber team resulted in a successful intercept, which turned out to be one of the previous Bears on its way back to Mother Russia.

Without the Shack., we wouldn't have been able to make a successful intercept as the geometry which would have resulted from an SOC contact would have yielded a lengthy stern chase and the Sovs would have been well out of the area of interest before we could have nabbed them.


So, that's one intercept they helped with. I was lucky enough to hop a ride to Iceland on one in the 80's. We arrived on Jul 4th and the pilot(s) did a fly by. When we landed we were mobbed by the Americans who thought we had brought an aircraft from a Museum. When they were told it was actually going to be on QRA due to a lack of Sentry aircraft there was stunned silence...
Great few days though and it was a great experience.
However, as an AEW platfrom it had about as much impact as a sparrow fart in a hurricane.

[big v]

I recall a story going around in the early 80s that a Shacklebomber was searching for a lost Bear when one of the Navs saw it out of a cabin window in the rear fuselage. Unfortunately and allegedly there was no intercom position close to the can so he had to do a shuffle to get onto intercom. Bear found.

I don't believe the Sea Kings were any better. On a SWAPPS exercise we got a call giving us bogeydope on 4 Super Etendards. When asked how they knew they were Super-Es, the reply was "they just flew underneath us."

Happy days.

Regards,

Vernon

[claron]

BIG V.

How dare you call me ugly.

We ground crew had a fun day filming that scramble. I must have knocked the camera over at least twice running to the aircraft. The director wasn't best pleased.

Good days, I had forgotten all about that until you posted.

Thanks :ok:

[big v]

Hi Claron,

Glad you enjoyed the vid. My reference to ugly mugs was more directed at the aircrew but if the cap fits etc :rolleyes:. I must have been on the sqn at the time but don't recall the filming. However I can remember a photo shoot for one of the aviation comics when we took their "reporter" flying.

Regards,

Vernon

[racedo]

I drew that, ORAC. Glad it's been used at last.

Did you just not like County Kerry in Ireland ?

[Courtney Mil]

I adore Co Kerry, a beautiful place. It's just that Bishop's Court couldn't see that far. ORAC didn't post the whole key from my website - the blue line is the theoretical radar coverage at 30,000'. Red line is the UKADR boundary.

[Pontius Navigator]

If you went through the steps - 3hrs to RS60, RS60 to RS30, Rs30 to CR - it took 3 hours to get them airborne. If you scrambled from 3hrs then the average was between 1-2 hours. Which with the P-Time of 2:15 from the decision to intercept usually meant the difference as whether it was even worth the effort.
ORAC, I take that as a typo.

QRA was never more than 2 hrs. As Wensleydale said, at 2 hrs we could be at home.

The normal progression was to 90 minutes which, theoretically, meant we had to stay on base.

In practice we were usually relaxed to 2 hrs even when 90 minutes would have been more sensible.

I lived 45 minutes away and have been airborne within 60 minutes. If there was a queue at the main gate we would drive in through the OUT and down the one-way street the wrong way. The police never said a word.

[Pontius Navigator]

"Presumably in a more routine sortie, the Shackleton was able to push the radar horizon a few hundred miles east, giving more intercept time?"


Well, perhaps 60 miles on a very good day over-sea only! There is only so much that you can do with a 1943 designed radar in a 1949 designed airframe!! (Probably better than a Nimrod 3 though).

Actually the benefit was to the north east of Saxa or occasionally west of Benbecula.

On one occasion I got a pick up at 200 miles, we tracked for about 4 hours until they out ran us to the south west but Q and Tansor were in contact. When the Bears turned north we regained and gave chase :). I eventually lost them at 225 miles.

On another occasion we were over the Kiev and well beyond UKADGE. Kiev launched a Forger to see us off the premises and Buchan scrambled an F4 'for your protection'. Thanks guys, the F4 was 550 miles away.

We had one or two other QRA incidents not involving enemy forces but that is a different story.

[Pontius Navigator]

Yep, could always rely on the Shackleton to arrive several hours after the party was over. :ok:
There is truth in this, in fact often 24 hours late.

As a result of the Nott Cuts we were down to a one-shot Q. If launched then there would be no further QRA until the following day. This made the ADOC reluctant to launch prematurely. I guess that would be when the Bears may have been suspected to be the Bear D/F on the Cuba run and transiting the Denmark Strait. Also the single Coot could not reach the UKADR so again we were not alerted for that either.

If, OTOH, they could slip in the Bear A/E combine we would usually be called forward for a timed launch based on the P-time. The really gotcha was if they push the Bear F out at low level.

In that case we would generally be launched too late or not at all. The next day, in anticipation, we would be launched again and that was ALWAYS exciting. We usually ran out of food before we ran out of fuel.

[Wensleydale]

One shot Q! With just 6 crews in total, we held Q from 0800 Monday until 1700 Friday. Buchan once tried to scramble a crew at 1705 on a Friday - too late, we were already in Happy Hour!

[Shiny10]

I was in charge of the ground crew whilst on ‘Q’ with the Phantoms at Leuchers with that damn box ticking away persistantly.

Early one afternoon one of the pilots came in and said “Buchan has picked up some Bears taking off from #########, we shall be running at 16:30”.

I replied “Can’t we walk at 16:20”.

If looks could have killed I wouldn’t be writing this.

At 16:30 the hooter went off and the aircrew came out running like hell to find us all ready for them with power sets running etc. They were not amused. :ok:

[Canadian Break]

ORAC - just slight correction old man - P was was usually 2hrs 10mins - and the butt of many jokes! CB:ok:

[Canadian Break]

Hours - surely you mean days Mr G.

[Pontius Navigator]

One shot Q! With just 6 crews in total, we held Q from 0800 Monday until 1700 Friday. Buchan once tried to scramble a crew at 1705 on a Friday - too late, we were already in Happy Hour!
That said, the Kiev incident was a Saturday. I took a photo at 0600 having just returned from leave at midnight Friday.

Of course it was a planned launch and I had to go in early to read GASOs, the FOB, and stop press :)

[racedo]

In that case we would generally be launched too late or not at all. The next day, in anticipation, we would be launched again and that was ALWAYS exciting. We usually ran out of food before we ran out of fuel.

So there is truth in the rumour that it wasn't UFO's there were spiriting people away, they were eaten by their own crew :E

[big v]

I went on a trip on one once - 8 hours Lossie to Coningsby. It was a different world. Oven chips featured amongst the vats of food and drinks that were produced.

We transited all the way down to the exercise area off the Wash but the radar went TU. I don't think it was a wind-up but everyone apart from the handling pilot huddled each side of the main spar then jumped up and down together, ostensibly to get the klystron (I think) to work. I don't think the radar was young enough for a magnetron.

I also remember another capex when the Shack turned up with a U/S radar. I felt sorry for them so gave them an alpha control run onto us. The calls of "Fox 1" and "Fox 2" were a delight to hear. The poor chaps then had a long trudge all the way back north.

Happy days.

Regards,

Vernon

[Pontius Navigator]

huddled each side of the main spar then jumped up and down together, ostensibly to get the klystron (I think) to work. I don't think the radar was young enough for a magnetron.

Wensley might remember better (he was younger) but the klystron was a bucket sized valve much prized as a fireside ornament. IIRC there was a metal rod inside with a number of metal spheres and indeed could get stuck.

Equally, through adroit switchery, it was possible to coat the inside of the tube with the metal balls thus expediting its usefulness as a fireside ornament. Not to put too finer point on it, I hated the bl**dy machine.

[airpolice]

Scramble Scramble Scramble Lightnings. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RBDF60o2Ns8#t=17)

That's the kind of thing you need to see, how it really used to be done.

Short sleeves, sunshine, daytime, six serviceable aircraft on one station, ah, them were the days.

[racedo]

That's the kind of thing you need to see, how it really used to be done.

Short sleeves, sunshine, daytime, six serviceable aircraft on one station, ah, them were the days.

Yeah picked that earlier in random Utube posts and was a good video.

[BEagle]

Short sleeves, sunshine, daytime, six serviceable aircraft on one station, ah, them were the days.

Indeed. And no wasting the defence budget and peoples' lives in a futile North-West Frontier war of attrition....:ugh:

[Wensleydale]

Jumping up and down:


There was a spring operated switch on the Shack Radar control panel which was held on to bring up the high voltage on the radar. This switch drove a rheostat that was like the "Wheatstone Bridge" that we used at school - a motor moved the arm along a metal coil to allow more voltage into the system until your gauge on the display showed that you had enough ergs to operate the radar. Sadly this arm, which was located under the floor between the pilot's seats, could frequently jam and the switch would not bring up the required voltage. The only solution was to get your 2 heaviest chaps on the crew (and there were a few) to jump up and down over the arm to try and free it while the radar operator held the high volts switch on. It sometimes worked, but the sight of a "Hakka" being religiously performed by the crew and the radar magically appearing on the scopes was often too much for passengers to take in!


Incidentally, when a Shackleton went to Marshals for a service, they found fatigue cracking in a spar between the pilots seats. The fleet was about to be grounded for testing etc when the radar team found out and explained the probable cause!


As for a U/S radar - during moratorium in the early 1980s, we were forbidden to dump fuel and we had to burn it into hours, even with no primary sensor. Sadly, landing weight was usually 6 hours away and so we did a good few nav exes and SAR drills to pass away the hours! Acting as a target was also an option on occasions. The annoying time was when the groundcrew had a spate of NFF and we had a succession of non-operating radars during a week. Lots of DCS consumed on those days!

[Courtney Mil]

I went on a trip on one once - 8 hours Lossie to Coningsby

Was that testiment to your navigatorial prowess, Vern? :eek::E:ok:

[Wander00]

Nah! Light headwind............I'll get my coat...........

[big v]

No Courtney, if it had been me it would have taken 10 hours!:{

[CoffmanStarter]

Pontius Navigator, Wensleydale ...

The klystron was a bucket sized valve much prized as a fireside ornament

Have either of you chaps got a pic of said valve you could share ...

[clicker]

Used to like watching the 8 Sqdn Shacks, nice sound with 4 griffins turning.

MC = Master Controller?
PLE = Planes Limit of Endurance?

And why the the Shack have that spark plug looking thing on top for? I first thought HF aerial but you didn't see that on other aircraft so that idea went out of the window.

Although I tried I never did catch a real QRA with a Shackleton on my radios but living so far south didn't help although exercise time was always fun to monitor. Hearing two F4's being told by a tanker on joining up that he had no fuel for them was one thing, hearing their response on the sqdn air/air was, shall we say amusing.

[Wander00]

I always thought "PLE" was "prudent limit of endurance"

[PEI_3721]

PLE pahh!
In the late 60’s it was a ‘Fool Line’ for the Lightning; IIRC about 350nm around Leuchars, with dotted lines for Lossie and other airfields (not all were approved for QRA ops except in an emergency). If you went outside the Fool Line you wouldn’t get back.
Time to intercept obviously depended on the distance flown, and of greater significance the distance of first ground / AEW contact. Thus with Norwegian alerting and a bit of guesswork on tracks, intercepts out to 300nm were possible. This was improved with the Tue/Thurs tanker training flights, which later became tanker Q flights.

There were also some routines, like 20 Jan every 4 years to the US East coast and back; also Bear flights to Cuba, and always a bevy of flights with a US fleet exchange in/out of the Med or a carrier fleet in the N Atlantic.
I recall one helpful civilian airline who reported an ‘air-miss’ (of several miles) on a Bear in the Faeroes Iceland gap.
Then there were a few ‘int’ alerted flights, where a telephone call would suggest a scramble in 2-3hrs (time for dinner in the mess); most of these were spot on.
On a few occasions there were ‘real’ scrambles, some with a buster call – supersonic. Generally these were ‘unidentified’ tracks (although probably expected) of aircraft returning from places North, and East of North; B 707, Victor, Canberra, and U2 (never confirmed). More often than not these resulted in a recall before intercept.

[big v]

Of course to calculate one's PLE, one really needed to know where you were. The FG1s were not best placed in that respect, as demonstrated in that famous incident.

And remembered in the words of the hilarious song sung at every opportunity. How did it go? Something like "You can chuck your tanks and missiles in the Firth of Tay, you don't need them throw them away...." etc

:)

Vernon

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, Vern. Happy days eh? Didn't we know the pilot concerned quite well?

[big v]

I do have a vague recollection...:)

[clicker]

Thank you re PLE, another hole filled in the knowledge bank. :ok:

Why do we have the tankers so far from the QRA airfields?

My simple civvie brain is often confused. If someone is launched from Leuchars it must take some time for the tanker to get to the QRA aircraft if it heads off towards the Northeast.

Or is the setup such that because of the surrounding allies and the CAOC network we will always have enough notice to launch Timmy Tristar or Veronica Voyager in plenty of time?

[Tankertrashnav]

Why do we have the tankers so far from the QRA airfields?




Good question, and the answer is if there was sufficient intelligence of forthcoming Soviet activity, the Dragonfly* aircraft and crew would re-locate to Leuchars to await events, and to bring themselves 45 minutes nearer the action.

(not a DH89!, that was the name for the year round standby system which had a tanker crew on a maximum 3 hours readiness during their week on standby)

On occasions if a Bear just "popped up" we could have a "Dragonfly Mobile" when a tanker on a normal North Sea towline sortie was pulled off to RV with the Leuchars QRA aircraft and head off North. This usually meant a recovery to Leuchars. I see on 4th March 1972 we were diverted off Towline Two, flew three more Dragonfly sorties from Leuchars (with the late Art Field) in the following days and recovered to Marham on the 9th. I assume a change of kit must have been brought up for us by other Marham crews who joined us subsequently, or we'd have been pretty ripe after 6 days!

I've just realised that was nearly 42 years ago, fgs! Still, I assume a similar arrangement must be in place for Tristars/Voyagers as the transit times are no faster

[ORAC]

And why the the Shack have that spark plug looking thing on top for? I first thought HF aerial but you didn't see that on other aircraft so that idea went out of the window. Orange Harvest (http://www.8squadron.co.uk/history_1972-1991.php)

...The Shackleton also carried the “Orange Harvest” radar warning receiver (RWR). This could give the bearing of any radars which illuminated the Shackleton; the display was a 3” cathode ray tube above the “C” operator’s position. The receiver for “Orange Harvest” looked like a giant spark plug and sat on top of the fuselage.....

Radar site: MRS (Master Radar Site) which became SOC (Sector Operations Centre).

Man running radar site: CONEX (Control Executive) which became MC (Master Controller).

Man running control team: CC (Chief Controller) which became FA (Fighter Allocator).

Man running identification team: DC (Display Controller*) which became TPO (Track Production Officer)

* Not to be confused with the DC in the bunker at HQSTC who was responsible for authorising the QRA scramble. Usually a maritime/transport Sqn Ldr on a ground tour, which lead to many head banging moments. Especially as the MC at Buchan had an arrangement for exchanging Int with the Americans in Iceland, who had their own Int plus E3As, which we were were expressly forbidden to tell the DC or QRA!!. Which lead to many a tanker and Q burning holes in the sky for many hours when the Bear Fs were north or west of Iceland.

Oh!!!, the hours spent on the Donald Duck secure voice trying to persuade the DC either a) please, pretty please, launch the QRA; or b) trust me, please don't launch the QRA on your "hot int".....

[Courtney Mil]

Too much information.

[Wensleydale]

http://8squadron.co.uk/history_images/shack_console_lg.jpg




The Orange Harvest control and display are the small panel to the left of the square box (High Volts Power Pack) above the "C" (right hand above) radar scope. The actual display is the tiny 3"" diameter circular display. The "spark plug" was specific to set frequencies for the RWR - we usually flew with F band receiver(?) but other bands were available. It was pretty useless, but against the F4s in Keflavic it gave us a useful handle on the radar scan being used and when it locked up onto us - a chap in the back could then throw bundles of chaff out of the beam window! We used to drop it through the flare shoot in the floor, but the strips of metal could foul the micro-switches in the tail wheel so were stopped from this practice! The Orange Harvest also picked up the occasional ships radar and we used to practice homings (see post on what to do during radar failure sorties).


If I could, I would arrow the radar volts up switch in the panel between the "A" and "B" scope, but I cannot on this blog. As for a photograph of the Klystron - sorry, I don't have one but it was a standard WW2 10cm Klystron as used in H2S etc (or very similar I am told).


Edited to add that the ground-crew used to have a giant clockwork key that fitted onto the top of the "spark plug" and on detachments to other bases/air shows etc, they climbed on top of the aircraft and wound it up before engine start (literally a wind-up)!

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Wensleydale ...

Then I suspect it may be similar to this little baby ... the Type CV67 as used during WWII.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zpsd6930623.jpg

[Wensleydale]

While we are on a roll with old radars....


The Klystron was powered by the rheostat that used to jam during power up as mentioned in the posts above. The pulses were produced by a piece of kit called a "Hydrogen Filled Thyrotron" (Sp?). This was a piece of kit similar to a fluorescent light tube but filled with Hydrogen. Low voltage pulses provided by an amplifier (parametric amplifier or PA) would hit the terminals and cause the gas to ionise - once ionised it would allow the radar waves from the klystron to be transmitted in sharp edge pulses. No TWTs for the AN/APS 20F. (The "F" bit was a digital video accumulator system attached to the receiver but it didn't work particularly well and we usually stuck with raw radar.


The small radar scopes did not have any afterglow and therefore all responses were marked by a chinagraph pencil. This was repeated scan by scan - if the contacts left a pencil trail at 300 kts then it was an aircraft - 15 kts and it was a ship!


Being a basic pulse radar, we could operate over sea only and the radar was subject to sea returns out to a range dependent upon height and the sea state. At about 2,000ft, we had sea returns out to about 40 miles and so had a useful range against fighter size targets between about 45 and 70 miles (on a good day). The idea was to set up intercepts running at a tangent to us so that we did not lose the contacts due to either the max range or sea return. Even then, raw radar only gave us a return at about 2 positive hits every 6 - the rest were added by DR with the chinagraph.


As PN has stated, we could in theory detect targets out to 200 nm, but this was very rare although the radar loved head-on detections of bears due to the big props and it was not unknown to get early pick-ups on Q.


A good controller had the ability to lie convincingly to the fighter on the radio and pretend that he knew exactly where everything was. (Alpha control was to be avoided at all costs if possible). We had raw IFF to help us - these left an eyebrow behind the radar contact - the angular size of the eyebrow dependent upon the IFF interrogator beam-width which was quite large! To decode the IFF response, we put a video "box" over the eyebrow and this would count the received pulses and work out the decode for us. (The eyebrow was made up of all the received pulses from IFF). The decode was displayed on the panel to the left of the radar scope (to the left of the Orange Harvest in the picture above). An emergency squawk gave us the standard 4 eyebrows! Needless to say, two aircraft in close proximity gave us problems with garble and juggling the fighter behind a squawking target often proved embarrassing.

[clicker]

Thank you Gents,

Like the tale about the "wind up" key. When you recall that some aircraft did have such a start up procedure, like the Me109, I bet that confused a few folk.

Strange as it may seem to others, I think I would have been at home in the back of any AEW or Elint aircraft if I was allowed to play with the kit there.

Radio and radar would always attract my attention at airshows. If the queues were not to long I would visit the E3, I would loved to have seen the kit working in the Nimrod R1 or a Sentinel but suspect I would be locked up afterwards. :)

[CoffmanStarter]

Very interesting Wensleydale ...

Maybe of further interest to others is the fact that ...

The klystron was first developed in 1939 by R.H. and S.F. Varian at Stanford University USA. This basic design was then improved upon by R. Sutton and his team at the Admiralty Signal School, Bristol, towards the end of 1940 by the development of an operating reflex klystron which was subsequently tested in early 1941.

[clicker]

Wensleydale,

As recounted elsewhere before I managed a visit to Neatishead during a night exercise watching a 2 v 2 (43 sqdn v 56 sqdn I think) where an East coast range was the target.

The controllers where we sat were good, one a German officer on exchange. For their IFF decoding they had a tracker ball but could only read four a minute, based on the revs per minute of the radar head. And yes plenty of chinagraph used.

It was a fantastic visit, albeit some 15-20 years ago now. Although my friend and I were both gobsmacked at how old the kit was compared to what we had been before at LATCC in West Drayton. All very manual, hands on stuff.

[Wensleydale]

At the risk of totally drifting off thread....


https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/944133_264092710399683_188275588_n.jpg


You can see just how small the radar scopes are! Crew at work with chinagraphs in hand! From memory, from the left: MF (Taco in "B" seat); CD (AEW Controller in "C" Seat); AA(?) in radio operator's seat (2nd Nav); AF(?) in Nav 1 seat. Probably early 80s as we still had yellow life jackets then.

[big v]

In the photo in Wensleydale's post 50 above you can clearly see the ashtrays at each crew station. On my one and only Shack trip I saw the ashtrays and it made the aircraft even more of a time warp. What a machine.

Rgds

Vernon

[dragartist]

Clicker,
Ref the R1. some pictures here


Nimrod R1 XW664 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/scotty2681/7576915544/in/photostream/)


looks like 664 is complete at the aero park. You will see most of the LRUs are adaptions of commercially available stuff.


sorry to disappoint - no kyclatrons!


with reference to Wensleydale and his ashtrays. When we took the ones off the R (SRIM 4006) circa 1985? made way for extra tea cup holders. More fuss was made over tea cups and butty boxes than anything else.


I think the worse thing I was responsible for was the condoms over the Starwindow keyboards. to keep the tea out. They came off after the first cal flight and never got on the 2nd and 3rd a/c


Sorry for the tread drift.

[Wensleydale]

We didn't use the ashtrays as they had to be cleaned after the trip! We used a paper cup with a little water in the bottom. On long missions while we did voicetel ("New Track, New Track") the trick was to light your next cigarette from the stub of the last one - the cups used to fill up quickly.


On one of my crews, 8 out of 9 of us used to smoke. The one poor unfortunate used to fasten himself into the isolation of the "C" seat with the curtain pulled tight round in order to try to escape the fog that descended from the ceiling (after 8 hours you didn't need to light up as there was enough nicotine in the atmosphere - especially when the pipe smokers got going).


One of the captains was a pipe smoker - he used to fly with his cockpit window open and toss the finished matches out of the aircraft after lighting up which he did many-many times during the sortie. To stop him borrowing and using the crew's entire match supply, the smokers clubbed together and bought him a nice lighter. First trip and (you've guessed it) the window flew open and out was tossed the lighter as habit took over!

[Pontius Navigator]

CD, your MF in the B was definitely not FB. :)

[Canadian Break]

The modern 'resonant' cavity magnetron tube was invented by John Randall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Randall_%28physicist%29) and Harry Boot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Boot) in 1940 at the University of Birmingham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Birmingham), England.The high power of pulses from the cavity magnetron made centimeter-band radar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar) practical, with shorter wavelength radars allowing detection of smaller objects. The compact cavity magnetron tube drastically reduced the size of radar sets so that they could be installed in anti-submarine aircraft and escort ships.

[clicker]

Thanks Dragartist,

Didn't know she was open to view. Must stop by next time I'm up in the Midlands.

But how do I get some of that interesting kit home? :ugh: Looked like a nice spectrum analyser in there.

[dragartist]

Clicker, There is some kit in a private collection somewhere in Norfolk that comes out for reunions. Also some stuff in the Wyton heritage Centre (see the link to pathfinder on the museum thread.)


Wensleydale. good job I gave up smoking when I left school (1974). Was a pilot smoked a pipe who did the RAE round robin ferry. flew down from Bedford to Farnborough when we were doing a secret squirrel job on Snoopy. he had put his pipe in his leg pocket. After we had taken off a strange smell began to circulate. he looked over his shoulder and mouthed to me "have you S#!t?" a few minutes later panic set in as he felt the heat and realised what was up.


back to the tread:- few months back there was a thread about being bored sat in the cockpit on QRA counting bolt heads and unscrewing things and the like. often thought what all these guys sat down the back did when the fuse blew and the kit did not work for the rest of the sortie. No more space invaders or ping pong game.


Looking at the pictures of 664 reminded me of the exponential growth in computer power and memory in such a short time. the hard disks in the small Sun workstation with the first ever airborne flat panel display was 1Gb. revolutionary for the day.

[Captain Radar....]

I was scrambled once from Conningsby

and perhaps the div was Honnington?

[Tankertrashnav]

Detail remembered from my days on Victors

H2S magnetron frequency 9375 mg
Klystron frequency 9330 mg
Therefore beat frequency 45 mg

Question - why can't I remember my mobile phone number? :(

[Courtney Mil]

I shall write it out 100 times before lunchtime. :(