US Pave Hawk down

[dead_pan]

Reports on social media of a US mil heli crash landing near Cley, Norfolk - no reports yet on mainstream broadcasters


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[TheWizard]

Just being reported. Hope it is not too serious
'Helicopter crash' in Norfolk - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-01-07/helicopter-air-crash-cley-north-norfolk/#helicopter-crashed-on-land-near-sea-in-norfolk_308738)

Latest ITV News reports saying it is NOT a British aircraft

Non-British military helicopter crashes in Norfolk - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-01-07/helicopter-air-crash-cley-north-norfolk/)

[peppermint_jam]

Just heard this myself, but nothing about if it was civil or mil, or how serious it is.

Fingers crossed nobody was injured.

[TheWizard]

A lot of agencies sadly reporting four fatalities now. :(

[OmegaV6]

ITV now reporting possibly 4 dead .. RIP and many condolences whatever nationality involved ..

[Burnie5204]

BBC News report

A helicopter has crashed in the Cley area of the north Norfolk coast.

Police and the fire service are at the scene, with a 1,200ft (400m) area cordoned off.

Six appliances from Norfolk Fire Service are currently in attendance, including four pumps, a water carrier and an environmental protection unit.

A spokesman said the first unit arrived at the scene at 19:53 GMT.

[Legalapproach]

US Pave Hawk most likely from Lakenheath

[Lima Juliet]

If it is a PAVE HAWK then God bless the pilots and PJs that have just lost their lives - they are some of the bravest aviators I've ever had the honour to meet.

LJ :sad:

[Topsy Turvey]

BBC now reporting US mil helo

BBC News - Norfolk helicopter crash: Four people believed to be dead (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25646978)

Condolences to families of those involved

TT

[bakseetblatherer]

RIP, and thoughts and condolences to family and friends

[TheWizard]

Perhaps the OP can amend the title now details have emerged?

RIP fellow aviators. That others may live.

[Oldandgrey]

Such sad sad news, thoughts and condolences to the families and friends for those involved.

O&G

[dead_pan]

Perhaps the OP can amend the title now details have emerged?

Done.

Very sad news.

[NutLoose]

Unfortunately it won't amend. The main title a Mod will need to do it.

Blue Skies, some of the bravest guys out there are in the Pave Hawk community.

:sad:

[srobarts]

The local newspaper report.
Four people believed to be dead following helicopter crash in the Cley area, north Norfolk - News - Eastern Daily Press (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/four_people_believed_to_be_dead_following_helicopter_crash_i n_the_cley_area_north_norfolk_1_3182375)

Condolences to family, friends and colleagues. RIP

[ditchvisitor]

Awful news, was on the desk tonight with a couple of crews airborne and had a few minutes comtemplation about how the guys at Lakenheath must be feeling, RIP fellas, Godspeed.

[Robert Cooper]

Sad, very sad.

RIP guys.

Bob C

[99 Change Hands]

Spent some time with this unit on a recent Safety Day at Lakenheath; some very impressive boys and girls operating a very impressive piece of kit.

RIP

[Mick Strigg]

Why oh why do the uninformed public always hear the engine "misfiring" just before an aircraft crashes?

[Deepest Norfolk]

BBC reporting this morning that the Police are conducting the investigation, idiots.
Norfolk Police Superintendent briefing the press on TV this morning calling it a "Parva Hawk", if they were conducting the investigation I would fear for the outcome.

It's bad enough people losing their lives, but please let's respect them by at least getting basic facts correct.
:(

DN

[Flyboy583]

From Norfolk Police Website

8 January 2014 I 07:59

With daylight approaching the multi-agency investigation into the helicopter crash on the North Norfolk coast will continue.

A USAF Pave Hawk HH60 helicopter from RAF Lakenheath crashed at the north end of East Bank on the Norfolk Wildlife Trust Cley Marshes Nature Reserve at around 7pm yesterday evening, Tuesday 7 January 2014.

The four occupants in the helicopter sadly died in the crash, details of the deceased will not be released until next of kin have been informed. It is not believed that anyone in the surrounding area has been injured.

The crash site, which lies to the west of East Bank in marshland between the A149 and the coastline, remains cordoned off today, Wednesday 8 January, for the safety of the public and those working to investigate the crash and recover the wreckage.

A second helicopter from RAF Lakenheath which landed on the marshes shortly after the crash also remains at the scene.

Chief Superintendent Bob Scully from Norfolk Constabulary, said: "In order to carry out a thorough investigation in a safe manner, the area will remain cordoned off with no access for the general public.

"We will be working with our partners at the Ministry of Defence, Air Accident Investigation Branch and US Air Force to gather all evidence from the scene and then recover the aircraft.

"This is difficult terrain with marshland and tides coupled with wreckage containing munitions covering a large area.

"We must undertake this investigation and recovery operation in a careful and methodical way so we can provide answers as to why this crash happened.

"For reasons of safety it is essential that members of the public adhere to the cordon. The popular activities of walking and bird-watching in this area will therefore be restricted until we have completed these tasks and ensured the marshes are safe.”

The A149 remains closed through Cley; access to Beach Road and East Bank is also restricted and there is no coastline access to the crash site.



8 January 2014 | 05:30

Emergency services and military personnel remain at the scene of a helicopter crash on the North Norfolk coast in which four people have died.

A USAF Pave Hawk HH60 helicopter from RAF Lakenheath crashed at the north end of East Bank on the Norfolk Wildlife Trust Cley Marshes Nature Reserve at around 7pm yesterday evening, Tuesday 7 January 2014.

Police can now confirm that the four occupants in the helicopter sadly died in the crash, details of the deceased will not be released until next of kin have been informed. It is not believed that anyone in the surrounding area has been injured.

A 400m cordon remains around the crash site which lies to the west of East Bank in marshland between the A149 and the coastline. A second helicopter from RAF Lakenheath was also in the area at the time of the crash and set down on the marshes to try to assist, this was within the cordon and so this aircraft remains at the scene whilst inquiries are ongoing. The A149 remains closed through Cley; access to Beach Road and East Bank is also restricted and there is no coastline access to the crash site.

Investigators from the police and other partners have visited the crash site to assess the scene. Due to the geography and the munitions from the crashed helicopter, inquiries into the cause of the collision, the recovery of the wreckage and second aircraft and an environmental assessment are expected to take a number of days to complete. To ensure the safety of people in the area and those involved in the ongoing inquiries, members of the public are asked to respect the cordons that are in place.

Assistant Chief Constable Sarah Hamlin said: “I would like to pass on my condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of those US Air Force personnel who have sadly lost their lives in this tragic incident. Emergency services, the military, partner agencies and volunteers have been working through the night to deal with this difficult situation on our coastline and I would also like to thank them for their professionalism and resilience.

“As our inquiry moves on today and the recovery of the aircraft begins, I would urge the public to stay away from the area – the cordon and road closures are in place to allow our experts to carry out these processes safely and there is no risk to members of the public if this section of marshland is avoided.”



7 January 2014 I 22:50

Officers are currently at the scene of a helicopter crash which is thought to have taken place at around 7pm this evening in the A149 Salthouse area on the North Norfolk coast.

The helicopter has been confirmed as a USAF Pave Hawk HH60 helicopter from RAF Lakenheath and four occupants are thought to have died in the crash. Next of kin will be informed before further details on the victims are released.

It is not believed that anyone in the surrounding area has been injured. However, there remains a 400m cordon around the site, which is standard for this type of incident, whether civil or military. An assessment is still being carried out around the munitions which may be on the aircraft and advice from the military is being taken.

All emergency services are at the scene while investigations continue. To ensure their safety, members of the public are asked to respect the cordons that are in place as enquiries are ongoing.



7 January 2014 I 21:25

Police are currently dealing with a single helicopter crash in the Cley area, on the North Norfolk coast.

There are believed to be four fatalities.

Officers are on the scene, with a 400 metre area cordoned off. More details to follow.

[Lukeafb1]

Deepest Norfolk,

I rarely comment on tragedies like this so early in the investigation.

However, I think you are being somewhat disingenuous to the Norfolk Police Superintendent and his statement to the press. He might have pronounced the name of the helicopter in a way you dislike, but that does not negate his statement. Picking up on the pronouncement of one word seems somewhat petty.

Condolences to all those affected by the accident.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Very sad news. As the accident happened in area (Bird Reserve) where concentrations of wintering wildfowl occur a birdstrike cannot be discounted.

[barnstormer1968]

I was following this on radio 5 live last night. It wasn't long before an 'expert' was wheeled out to give their expert opinion. Last night it was Paul Beaver, who said the black hawk is not a widow maker (is that the best phrase in the circumstances) and that it was probably an accident and not mechanical failure.
So, do we still need to do any investigating now that someone who hasn't been to the site has spoken !

A caller then came on air to tell her story. She hadn't seen or heard the crash, and said she only occasionally sees helicopters in the area.......... What the hell is wrong with people these days that make them feel the need to call up and spout nonsense?

RIP to the crew and condolences to their families and friends.

[500N]

Very sad to hear.

Not just Wildfowl, hundreds of thousands of waders of all sizes
and in huge flocks moving about with the tide.

[teeteringhead]

Why oh why do the uninformed public always hear the engine "misfiring" just before an aircraft crashes? ... even better (sic), I heard one "earwitness" on the wireless who said:

"It sounded like the engine was on fire!" :confused::confused:

Surely it is disrespectful to air such rubbish so publicly - you don't need to be an aviator or an expert to see what a daft statement that is. :ugh:

[SASless]

The Plod are not hired for their ability to read. write, and speak English are they?


The four occupants in the helicopter sadly died in the crash,

Does one ever "happily" die in a crash?

I hope they do a better job performing the "Cordon" than they do Pressers.

[NutLoose]

Teetering, I read an article a while back that I think was to do with the AAIB, and that said the Public's perception of what they heard or saw can actually be better than that of an "expert" witness, be it Pilot or Engineer. Simply because they have no preconception or knowledge of what is happening, so they tell it in their own words what they heard or saw, and that can be more accurate in certain incidents.

So sounds of backfiring it is... similar to the bird strike of the 757 airliner leaving Manchester that took several down one engine, film below. If you didn't know what a stall or surge was, how else would one describe it? one would use terms you understand.

ThomsonFly 757 bird strike & flames captured on video - YouTube (http://youtu.be/9KhZwsYtNDE)

RIP Guys and my condolences to family and friends.

[NutLoose]

They are showing aerial shots of the crash site on the BBC, sadly not a lot left :(

BBC News - Norfolk Helicopter crash : Aerials of scene (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25648794)

[teeteringhead]

Nutloose the Public's perception of what they heard or saw can actually be better than that of an "expert" witness, I have some sympathy with that view, but I was really wondering what an engine on fire sounds like???

[dervish]

I read an article a while back that I think was to do with the AAIB, and that said the Public's perception of what they heard or saw can actually be better than that of an "expert" witness, be it Pilot or Engineer. Simply because they have no preconception or knowledge of what is happening, so they tell it in their own words what they heard or saw, and that can be more accurate in certain incidents.

Indeed. It was interesting that the AAIB quoted a civilian witness in their interim report into the Clutha Bar crash.

[ACW418]

SAS

Your version of the English language may be different to that in England but that wording is the norm in this country. Suggest you don't make aspersions on the professionalism of the British police. You are always complaining that we are needlessly having a go at your countrymen - don't do the same in reverse.

What is happening is entirely in accordance with the law of this country. The US authorities will not be prevented from making their investigations.

In simple words "can it".

ACW

[SASless]

AC....if an American Police PR type made exactly the same statement I would have been saying the same thing. Where did I say the "British Police".....as my comment was quite generic.

You are looking for insult where there was none.

Bad Grammar is bad grammar be it English or American.

[El Grifo]

Where did I say the "British Police"

So "Plod" is an internationally generic term then ?

Plod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plod)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Picking up on the pronouncement of one word seems somewhat petty.

You make a very good point very well.

[P6 Driver]

What the hell is wrong with people these days that make them feel the need to call up and spout nonsense?


The same that causes people to make speculative or ill-informed statements on this web site, about incidents, or to make jokes about Police helicopters crashing onto buildings.

To whom it may concern: Why not just keep the speculation to yourself, or simply wait for the reports to be officially issued?

[Fox Four]

Has anyone looked at the chart for that area. Isn't it SFC-500 restricted? Someone alluded to this earlier. Blakeney Point Bird Sanctuary now has an RA(T) active SFC-5000.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

There is a restriction over nature reserves just immediately to the west of the accident site that covers the North Norfolk coast from Blakeney as far west as The Wash down towards Kings Lynn. At my club Pilots are asked not to fly in this area below 1000 feet.

On the Local News tonight Mr Bernard Bishop who is The Warden of Cley Nature Reserve stated that there is a local agreement with the Military that flying will not take place over Cley Reserve during The Breeding Season but that it is permitted at other times.

These helicopters are familiar to many of us in North Norfolk. It is not unusual to see them touching down during daylight hours on the small airfield at Weybourne which is not very far away from the accident site.

[ranger703]

I cannot believe what I heard a short time ago on BBC News24!! Paul Beaver on discussing the incident stated he was surprised as to how intact and structurally sound the crashed helicopter appeared to be!! I am amazed that someone of his supposed stature was not aware that there was another helicopter involved in the training exercise that landed shortly after the crash and it is this helicopter that is on the sand dunes!

[MAD Boom]

I cannot believe what I heard a short time ago on BBC News24

I can. And I bet it won't be long before John Nichol is having his say............

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The media know very well that eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, and every proper expert tells them that before they are wheeled on.
But..............
Joe public watches the news more if detail, no matter how unlikely or wrong, is included, and the more dramatic the better.
..and Joe public then keeps watching that channel/buys stuff from the advertisers on that channel, etc.
..and what's the 'expert' to do? The media pays well, and the world is better off listening to an expert for half the item than another 3 eyewitnesses relating how they felt about whatever it was they did(n't) see.

Conclusion: Journalism is not a information profession, it's entertainment. I won't have them in the house.

[dead_pan]

I cannot believe what I heard a short time ago on BBC News24!!

Suffice to say, he made a complete ar5e of himself. I got the sense that the anchor wanted to correct him but for whatever reason she didn't bother -perhaps she was hoping no-one noticed his ridiculous mistake...

[superq7]

Sadly another accident.

1 dead after Navy helicopter crashes near Virginia coast | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/08/navy-helicopter-crashes-off-coast-virginia/)

[RAFEngO74to09]

Superq7,

Already a thread on this:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/531510-us-ch-53e-down-off-norfolk-va.html

[superq7]

Sorry Rafeng didn't notice that.

[Pom Pax]

Myth "Norfolk is flat"
The accident site is on a strip of sea level marshland. However this strip is only about 1 km wide (expanding westwards & narrowing eastwards). This strip is backed by steeply rising land forming a 200 - 300 foot heathland plateau (The Holt Cromer ridge).
So this accident is not necessarily a near ground incident.

[Squirrel 41]

RIP, gentlemen

[NutLoose]

Crew have been named and the bodies are being recovered :sad:

BBC News - Helicopter crash: 'No warning' before Pave Hawk came down (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-25663739)

[TheWizard]

RIP, gentlemen

One of them was a lady. Staff Sergeant Afton Ponce.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Apart from the possibility of a birdstrike I am sure that investigators will also concentrate on the physical geography and the crew's familiarity of the area.

In recent years the shingle bank that runs from Salthouse to Cley has been breached and indeed several weeks or so ago inundated by the sea during stormy weather. This has led to significant erosion and in some places the bank is now lower than in others. This may be the case at the accident site where the bank was already relatively low for there is evidence from aerial photographs of shingle and sand being swept towards the marsh. The second helicopter landed on this bit of inundation.

What I suggest might have happened is pure speculation.

A) That the helicopter approached the shingle bank directly from the sea at very low height.

B) The tide was out at the time (Low tide at Cromer was at 1717 hrs) and visibility was good. It was dark.

C) The beach along this stretch of coast shelves quite steeply and could therefore possibly give the illusion to the crew as they approached that the shingle bank was higher than it actually is.

D) That the crew planned to drop the aircraft down on to the other side of the shingle bank and fly parallel to it.

C) That in the course of executing a turn to do this the helicopter struck the ground.

I repeat that this is pure speculation and that I have no evidence apart from the fact that the tide was out.

Moderator please feel free to remove if deemed inappropriate.

[NutLoose]

I was surprised the other one stayed on scene for days, all I can think was it was either to recover their bodies home or possibly as a reference for those looking at the wreckage and needing accounts of what happened from witnesses on site..

:(

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

I would guess that the second chopper cannot be moved because of the disturbance that it would cause to the accident debris.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Sea floods in North Norfolk - YouTube (http://youtu.be/PqEHTRELUAA)

This film shot during a storm in 2007 shows the beach and shingle bank along this stretch of coast.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Salthouse freshmarsh inundation Norfolk UK 6th December 2013 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/Q8E5QwV6KGE)

This short film shows flooding at Salthouse 2013. The accident site is only a little further up the coast.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Salthouse 2008 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/bkca4dlrRtU)

At the beginning of this film you will see the shingle bank from the edge of the marshes. I guess it is about twenty feet high here - it is quite a bit lower a little further up the coast where the accident happened. For those of you who like a bit of bird - watching enjoy the rest of the film!

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Eyewitness describes Norfolk helicopter crash - video - YouTube (http://youtu.be/F5svpeUzwwU)

Here you can see that much of the shingle bank at Cley has been swept away. Bernard Bishop is much respected in these parts. His remark about the helicopter "sitting" must be in respect of the second helicopter. In another interview he stated that the weather had been perfect with very little wind, just a light sou-westerley.

[Ruperts Trooper]

The shingle bank hasn't been washed away - it's been flattened by being pushed inland.

Since the 1953 floods that shingle bank has been continuously bulldozed into a pyramid of much greater height than natural - it's done continuously because every storm tends to flatten the bank. In 2007 Defra decided to stop bulldozing and let nature take it's course - which would gradually mean the shingle bank flattening into a much lower, wider shape and the freshwater marsh between the shingle bank and higher land along the road alignment would gradually revert to saltmarsh but still protect Cley and Salthouse villages from the effects of storms. This gradual reversion was expected to take decades but December 2013's storms and storm surge which was higher than the 1953 surge has done most of that already.

The companion helicopter is sitting on loose gravel, the result of these recent storms - the aerial photos of the scene show the debris field on the edge of the marshland next to the pool - an area only recently visible after sitting in 2+ m of storm surge sea water - so some of the debris may be well buried in the exceedingly soft "ground" - peaty silt more like.

[SilsoeSid]

OO, D) That the crew planned to drop the aircraft down on to the other side of the shingle bank and fly parallel to it.
Parallel in which direction?

In reference to the comment;
C) The beach along this stretch of coast shelves quite steeply and could therefore possibly give the illusion to the crew as they approached that the shingle bank was higher than it actually is.
Seems unlikely.
As we used to have to, can anyone confirm whether 'recent' daytime route recces still take place?

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

To the east - as per debris trail. Turn completed despite initial contact by Rotor?




For continuity please note that the post that followed this has subsequently been deleted.

[Cows getting bigger]

So what? There is no law saying that you have to follow the most direct route. I could tell you about a 6 and a bit hour session I did where the straight line distance was a little over 20nm.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Yes. I think that this business about in transit to Holbeach is fair enough. It's probably only about 15-20 minutes flying time away and I expect that they were performing a low level detail prior to transit. I don't see anything sinister in this.

[SilsoeSid]

Is that direction of flight confirmed?

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

I have no idea but suspect that the helicopters would fly west, then on reaching The Wash fly south-west down The Wash to Holbeach (Taking great care not to disturb H.M. QE11. watching telly at Sandringham).

The fact that the helicopter was flying east when the accident happened is not significant.

[SilsoeSid]

OUAQUKGF Ops

I have no idea but suspect that the helicopters would fly west, then on reaching The Wash fly south-west down The Wash to Holbeach (Taking great care not to disturb H.M. QE11. watching telly at Sandringham).

The fact that the helicopter was flying east when the accident happened is not significant.


Is that West, then South West along the coastline, on the way to the ranges? :confused:

Anyway, so it was flying East when it crashed, can you provide a link to that info?

[awblain]

The direction of flight compared with the Moon might have some consequences for the appearance of obstacles.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Dear Sid,

In answer to your questions: With regard to whether they would fly over land or sea to transit from Cley to Holbeach I would suspect that it would be a bit of both but I am just an ordinary bloke, not a pilot so don't ask me!

With regard to the direction in which the wreckage faces if one takes it that what appears to be the largest piece is at the head of the debris trail then the helicopter would have been flying East or if you want to split hairs slightly East-South-East. Again I have speculated that the helicopter was already on this course having made a turn which resulted in this catastrophic event but it is quite possible that it ended up crashing in this direction as a result of something else that happened to it. Equally it could already have been established on this course flying down the edge of the marsh by the shingle bank towards Weybourne.



Low flying by American and British Military aircraft in Norfolk is not uncommon.

Further The Fighter Wing at Lakeheath of which these choppers are part has a large practice area over the sea just north of Cromer which is also used by RAF Tornados and Typhoons.

Cheers Tom.

[SilsoeSid]

OO, you said, "The fact that the helicopter was flying east when the accident happened ...."

Your fact is based on 'what appears' :confused:
Why is the heaviest piece at the head of the debris trail?

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Sid,

You must take my postings as pure speculation.

As yet there have been no broadcast or published eye-witness accounts of the accident if indeed any exist.

Therefore I will adopt a sensible attitude and like everybody else wait for the outcome of the investigation.

[Pontius Navigator]

One environmentalist issue was their route to feet wet. At one point we had an on site brief to make it clear where the over night roosts were and that they should ensure a coast crossing at right angles.

The representative from Lakenheath or Mildenhall was an RAF Wg Cdr, ex-kipper fleet (Al B).

You can see the danger area and bird haz areas here:

http://www.mantma.co.uk/pdf/eg_enr_6_5_1_1_en.pdf

Yet again, if they were approaching land from the sea (one comment) how would you account for witnesses on land hearing anything?

*nothing said above should be taken to imply that that was true of the crash event.

[SilsoeSid]

I am not sure that they use Holbeach.

Col Robinson said they were "flying to a gunnery range in Holbeach [Lincolnshire], and used that frequently for training".
BBC News - Helicopter crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-25663739)

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

This is my final speculative contribution which I have corrected and updated since posting.

A) Witnesses living in Cley and Salthouse heard and saw two low-flying helicopters on the night in question.


B) Several sightings were of a single helicopter. This helicopter was either the subject helicopter or possibly the second helicopter searching for the downed helicopter. In one interview Bernard Bishop remarked that he saw the lights of a helicopter which at one stage hovered leaving me to think that this was the search aircraft.

C)No witnesses apart from one (So far I know) stated that they saw the helicopter crash and again (as far as I know) nobody apart from one person has stated that they heard any sounds of impact.

D) The helicopter or helicopters had probably at some stage been flying over the sea because initially three life-boats were called out. I believe they were stood down when the wreckage was located.

E) The Police Superintendent when briefing the press stated that there were two helicopters in the area at the time of the crash.

I've read in The Daily Telegraph that a witness in Cley saw two helicopters carrying out low level manoeuvres.

To quote him: "They were flying extremely low considering it was night. They do exercises around here. Later I heard there had been an accident".

Also in the Daily Telegraph that a witness in Cley claimed that he saw the helicopter come down inasmuch that he witnessed a helicopter which he thought had landed on the beach "ditching" in the marsh. To quote:

"I saw it go down. At first I thought it had landed on the beach but then realised it had ditched in the marsh. I actually saw it go down but I did not see it ditch. It went down in the nature reserve." This witness also stated elsewhere that he heard the impact.

I'm signing off now and believe me I appreciate these crews who operate often dangerous missions in their bid to save lives.