RAF recruitment

[fantom]

Just watched an ad on the tele for recruits.

We laid off 6,000 experienced people recently didn't we?

Explain, please.

[endplay]

Wibble jibber wibble!

[TheWizard]

Who do you think is going to replace those 6000 people? Der, come on!!:ugh:

(The ads are in two parts-the 2nd being aimed at RAF Reserves which is the main focus)

[Ken Scott]

The experienced people cost more as they are a paid a salary commensurate with that experience whereas new recruits are cheap. As far as the accountants are concerned why pay for a PAS pilot when a JP can sit in the same seat?

There's no column on the balance sheet for experience.

Not forgetting also that having cut those 6000 a significant proportion of the remainder are voting with their feet so will need replacing.

[FJJP]

Muneee....

[Mr C Hinecap]

You have to maintain a spread of ages and experience across a Branch or Trade. You need sufficient people who are young enough to maintain a structure and who have the potential to achieve the highest rank possible and have full careers. If the pyramid (and it is a pyramid) gets to be the wrong shape (a 'bulge' around the middle just like mature ME crew when they haven't moved for a few years) then you get promotion slowing / stopping and it all goes wonky at that point. Also, if you switch off a training stream completely it is very difficult indeed to start it up again.

So. Some out of a mix of ranks and seniority, some more in at the bottom to keep things moving.

[Lima Juliet]

RAF Recruit numbers have been on the increase throughout 2013 - http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafhalton/news/index.cfm?storyid=9E1AE4FD-5056-A318-A81FDA6E8FD17C94

Over the past couple of years the Recruit intake has been small, but still ticking over. The problem being is that they don't want to introduce a demograaphic bulge that causes a problem later down the line where they have no-one if similar age (say within 3 years of each other). Otherwise, everyone leaves at the same time! Whilst we need fewer to maintain our 30-odd thousand, we will need more Recruits than the past few years to sustain our numbers rather than shrink them.

Make sense?

LJ

[MAD Boom]

It can make as much sense as you like Leon, but tell that to the guy who has his P45 thrust his way before his IPP and walks out of the gate to see the 'RAF Recruiting now' banner flapping in the wind.

[Red Line Entry]

So what do you want instead? A moratorium on recruitment so the situation gets even worse?

[Whenurhappy]

In the mid 1990s the RN stopped recruiting Able Seamen for about 2 years. As a result, over the last 10 years the RN have suffered from that demographic waist right across the Service at Senior Rate and Upper Yardsmen. The RAF has, with difficulty, tried to avoid this happening.

[Lima Juliet]

It's a simple management problem when it comes to downsizing options:

1. Do nothing and wait for natural wastage. Not fast enough without other measures outlined. Also there is no control in protecting key capabilities.

2. Recruitment freeze. Achieves numbers quickly but if done for an extended period - say 2-5 years - then there is no-one to promote to JNCO upwards in 5 years. The recruit trg pipeline is decimated and then you have a problem looking for the non-existent JNCOs/SNCOs that you need to man it with your best people. At some point all your experienced people retire in a big blob and then you have to promote in-experienced to back-fill (great for the individual but bad for the organisation).

3. Recruitment trickle feed and then ramp up prior to achieving target. This is more controllable and leaves the employer the most options. This is what the RAF has done. Also when matched with voluntary redundancy, a small amount of targetted redundancy and a trickle of recruitment it appears as a controlled measure and doesn't panic the workforce!

4. Mass redundancy to the required number. This would be devastating to the workforce morale and also would likely overshoot. The rough rule of thumb is 'if you plan to lose 10% of your workforce by compulsary redundancy then expect to lose a further 15% in short order afterwards'. Not a good option, but the easiest to instigate. Thankfully the RAF did not use it.

LJ :ok:

[Q-RTF-X]

Reading the previous post suggests that some thought went into handling a delicate and somewhat complex situation - good to see !

[teeteringhead]

A good summary Leon.

I would add the increased necessity of keeping the training machine ticking over (or more than!) now that much of it is civilian and/or contractor manned.

Civvies are not as easy to "flex" as blue-suited QFI/QHIs were in the past - used to be a case of post 'em to an ops job and claw them back when the studes return.....

[A2QFI]

I have watched the adverts. They are shot in a strange harsh black and white style and, without exception, everyone featured in them looks dour and miserable. This probably accurately reflects what life is like in the RAF today.

[Al-bert]

everyone featured in them looks dour and miserable. This probably accurately reflects what life is the is like in the RAF today.

there should be a 'like button' on pprune! :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

Here you go!

http://www.arealchange.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Like_1-300x199.jpg

Of course, it doesn't work, but what did you expect?

[Lima Juliet]

Courtney, it must be one of those buttons from our favourite aircraft manufacturer in the North West! :E

LJ

[The Nip]

Can the RAF still justify having 3 units for basic training? The figure for last year was <2000.

[TheWizard]

I have watched the adverts. They are shot in a strange harsh black and white style and, without exception, everyone featured in them looks dour and miserable. This probably accurately reflects what life is like in the RAF today.

Not surprised if you are still in at 74 years old. Unless you are trying to be amusing...

[Lima Juliet]

The Nip

I don't think you could blob up the last 3 though. RAF Cranwell is doing Officer training, RAF Honington is doing baby Rock Ape Recruit training and RAF Halton is doing RAF Recruit training. What would you do?

1. Put Honington and Halton together? Either the poor lads/lasses would be beasted to death or you would end up with soft Rock Apes!

2. Put Cranwell and Halton together? The Recruit course is 10 weeks and the Officer course is 28 weeks for starters. There is not the room/infra at Cranwell and so you would have to build at least 6 new Barrack Blocks, a parade square for the Recruits to practice/pass out on and SLA/SFA for the instructors (of which there is a shortage of in Lincolnshire) - 100s of millions of £s. Or you could put Cranwell at Halton, plenty of infra and Halton House would make a great new College Hall...hang on, shut Cranwell, never! :ugh:

3. Put them all together? Massive build program and disruption.

Only if the station closes that the basic training is currently at, does it make any sense to move it. That said, when it moves, it will probably still be a seperate course. Also, trying to blob together all 3 services officer or recruit training would be an equal disaster and need the kind of investment we had to make at Shrivenham.

Still if we cancel the carriers we'll have loads of cash to do this type of thing! :ugh:

LJ

[Mr C Hinecap]

the Officer course is 28 weeks

Nope. IOT is currently 36 weeks. Having seen it at close quarters a year ago, it is a far superior course than any that went before it as well.

[Lima Juliet]

36 weeks - crikey twice as long as when I went through. It was complete bolleaux then and just bearable, but 36 weeks? Really? You get less for ABH these days!

Thanks for the info, though, mate :ok:

[teeteringhead]

And some of us did it in 15 weeks!

[dctyke]

Up till the introduction of the SA80 RAF Regt did recruit training alongside RAF. It got split because the Regt recieved the weapon 2yrs before the rest of us so needed bespoke training. The Regt resisted returning to joint recruit training once we all had the SA80 although (up to 6yrs ago) the sylabus of training was identicle. A huge waste of money and resources.

[NutLoose]

Yup Regt did their basic with us in my time, you could always get the Pongos to train them after basic.

[The Nip]

LJ,

I don't think there is an answer which will be popular. All 3 units have large estates which cost a fortune to run. Halton for example will be further emptied out with the move of SMTW to Worthy Down. The Old Workshops will be almost empty.
There are already at least 10 barrack blocks which are closed up and they are the ones by Maitland. Up at RTS it is very quiet after a few years ago when almost 4000 went through in one year.

My only suggestion is that there should be a Joint officer cadet training establishment. Then once 'basic' is over they then proceed to their professional training units. There is already joint training units at trade level and this will become the norm in the future.

[Libertine Winno]

Joint officer training has been mooted for years now. However, I know that Dartmouth is not actually owned by the Navy, but granted to them for use as a training establishment by a local landowner (historic thing...!) hence it cannot be 'sold' by the Navy as they don't technically own it.

Not sure if there is anything similar with Cranwell or Sandhurst, nor whether they'd even be big enough to accommodate all 3 services...?

The difficulty is that none of the services would want to get rid of their iconic establishments and move to someone else's, so perhaps the only answer (if there were to be a joint location) would be to get rid of all 3 and build a bespoke establishment somewhere?

[A2QFI]

In reply to The Wizard - I didn't say I was still in! However I was directly and indirectly employed by the RAF from 1958 to 2004, finishing my time working at a front-line fast jet base so I know what the RAF WAS like and what it was like when I left. I don't try to be amusing, it comes to me naturally.

[airborne_artist]

However, I know that Dartmouth is not actually owned by the Navy, but granted to them for use as a training establishment by a local landowner (historic thing...!) hence it cannot be 'sold' by the Navy as they don't technically own it.

That may not be true. I have read that the Defence Works Act of 1842 was invoked for a compulsory purchase. One source - http://www.bishoparchitecture.com/wp-content/uploads/BrittaniaRoyalNavalCollege.pdf and another - Educating the Royal Navy: 18th and 19th Century Education for Officers - Harry W. Dickinson - Google Books (http://bit.ly/1dkaMtC)

[Ken Scott]

My only suggestion is that there should be a Joint officer cadet training establishment.

A seriously bad idea that should never be allowed to happen. Each service has a distinct ethos & requirement so it would not be possible to blend the three services together & if you tried it would potentially lead to amalgamation which has already been proved not to work - disaster all round.

As the largest service the army would expect to take the lead so the course would most likely churn out infantry officers which would not meet the requirements of the RAF or RN. There could be a 'joint' ('Joint' in army-speak = 'army') first term before the 3 services split for more focused training but that would negate much of the potential savings. The graduation parade would look messy with the 3 differing uniforms or would everyone wear the same (army) uniform?

At the start of your career you need to be immersed in the culture & traditions of your own service, a course of 70% army/ 15% RN & 15% RAF (my guesstimate) would not achieve that for the smaller services.

[dctyke]

Ken Scott: The graduation parade would look messy with the 3 differing uniforms or would everyone wear the same (army) uniform?

I always thought the army had a plenty of different (regimental) uniforms which looked, in your definition, 'messy' at graduations?

[Lima Juliet]

The Nip

All 3 units have large estates which cost a fortune to run. Halton for example will be further emptied out with the move of SMTW to Worthy Down. The Old Workshops will be almost empty.
There are already at least 10 barrack blocks which are closed up and they are the ones by Maitland. Up at RTS it is very quiet after a few years ago when almost 4000 went through in one year.

As far as I'm aware, the SMTW move has been slipped right as there wasn't the money in the right years in the infra plan - earliest move is 5 years away. Anyway, SMTW is not the be-all/end-all for Old Workshops. There's Specialist Trg Sqn that does all 3 service's HSE/COSH/Environmental trg, JIAG (the new DMOC), the RAF Flight Safety Regional Occurence Investigation Team (that covers the whole of the South), a massive clothing section, the Station Swimming Pool, the Paint Shop and Station Workshops that does stuff for Halton/High Wycombe/Northolt under the Serco Multi-Activity Contract all within Old Workshops.

As for the Barrack Blocks on Maitland, some are used for Airman's Command Squadron to house the 100s of JNCOs/SNCOs that do JMLC and IMLC. Some are used for the Air Cadets, the Regt Flight uses another for CCS and other trg. Normally, there are only 5-6 empty and they are kept on care and maintenance for things like Op OLYMPICS (Halton took ~4,000 HMForces for trg for the Olympics and then housed ~600 for the games) and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee (drilling and housing the ~500 needed for the Windsor Drum Head Ceremony) - it gives the ability to take ~500 all ranks with ease for Resilience tasks in the South. It has taken over that role from the now defunct RAF Northolt. Many contingency plans use Halton due to its location and ability to accomodate at short notice.

As for the Recruit site, there are now ~2,000 up there over a year compared to your quoted maximum of 4,000. I cannot see how you would easily move Recruit Trg Sqn to anywhere else without a massive build program - I would estimate such a new build to cost ~£500M as you would Barrack Blocks, Classrooms, Trg Areas, Sports Facilities and a Parade Square; plus, I know of knowhere that has surplus of SFA and SLA for all the instructors and staff, so that would need at least 2x SLAM blocks and 3 dozen quarters!

Now if that is cheaper than running on Halton then I'll eat my hat!

Of course, some chiseller staff officer will have hatched a plan to get themselves an MBE/OBE without looking at the true cost of such a move. Have we got half a billion to spare? Nope, but it won't stop us saying that we need more redundancies next SDSR with an urgent infra program requirement...:ugh:

LJ

[thefodfather]

From what I remember the decision to close Halton has already been screwed up once, when the Technical training school moving to Cosford in the early/ mid 90s. As far as I'm aware the plan was to shut Halton until at almost the last minute it turned out that the original terms of the purchase of the land from the Rothschild's means that MoD has to return the land back to its original condition and then have to sell it back to the family for £1.

It might just be an old wives tale though but someone must know if this is definitely the case.

[Lima Juliet]

Nope, the Estate was bought for £112,000 from the family in 1918 - freehold.

By the way, the cost of moving SMTW to Worthy Down is an eye watering £250-300M. Want to know why Defence is skint and we can't afford anything - decisions like these...:ugh:

LJ

[The Nip]

LJ,

I am fully aware of the make up of the Old Workshops and the quantity of pers therein. You correctly list various tenants located in the Workshops, but have you walked around and seen the amount of empty rooms/corridors?
Correct SMTW are not the be all, but they are still moving in 16. (as of today). The costs are indeed eye watering.

I did not say that you should relocate the basic training, I also did not say that 4000 was a maximum just highlighting the difference in throughput in a given year.

My point was there are 3 training units with large estates to run. With a dwindling number of recruits per annum, is this still viable?

I don't have an answer, I just put forward a suggestion. What would be the cost of refurbishing Halton House to a modern officers mess suitable for today's officers?

[Lima Juliet]

I am a "today's officer" and there's nothing wrong with the Mess - so what if you have to buy a dressing gown to go to the loo, you're living in a Rothschild Mansion rather than a soul-less box like Daedalus at Cranwell or that carbuncle they've built at Winterbourne Gunner! :yuk:

I don't see the issue with the Rock's doing their Recruit Trg at Honington as the main output is FP (now with the Police with the move out of Henlow).

I don't see the issue with Halton continuing to do Recruit Trg when the numbers are as they are and it is so very expensive and not cost effective to move it when there are also other lodger units at Halton (plus being adjacent to the much smaller HQAir).

Whilst there are miniscule amounts of new officers going through Cranwell's IOT, it does so much more. All of RAF EFT (16 and soon 57 Sqn) and 3FTS with 45 Sqn to boot. OASC as well as HQ Air Cadets. I also hear rumours that RAFCAM from Henlow may well be moving there (makes sense). I just don't see the room for Recruit Trg without HUGE uneccessary expense in new infrastructure?

LJ

[Hangarshuffle]

You are living in the past. Be better value to the taxpayers if several of these establishments closed down and the remainder amalgamated. I never cease to be amazed how MOD have hung on so long with it all. The entire RN and RFA surface fleet operation could be ran from one naval base these days, let alone basic training.
HMS Raleigh (RN ratings) was practically dead last time I was there (demob). Massively underused.
But something else is behind all this.
For once a dose of "Thatcherism" should be applied and you should all get on with it..

[Ken Scott]

I always thought the army had a plenty of different (regimental) uniforms which looked, in your definition, 'messy' at graduations?

dctyke: Sandhurst graduates all wear the same uniform for their passing-out parade, only donning the smorgasbord of styles that makes up the modern army afterwards.

[Willard Whyte]

...build a bespoke establishment somewhere...

That would make a change. Most of our military establishmants are in the middle of nowhere.

[The B Word]

Willard

The only problem with building near anywhere decent is that everyone then starts to 'beak' about the cost of the housing and how unaffordable it is. Funny how the rest of the population manage to buy a house though - maybe because we in the military fritter our cash at Happy Hours, fast cars/bikes and holidays!!! :eek:

The B Word

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

What worries me is the JNCOs and airmen that have been protected from the rise in inflation and general cost of living by becoming accustomed to an op bonus that has been readily available. The HERRICK campaign has effectively boosted the salary of many. When fewer and fewer actually make it on tour in 2015, I fear that those households who have utilised this extra money to support themselves will be left in a very sticky place indeed when they are forced to live off their basic salary.

[dctyke]

KS: Sandhurst graduates all wear the same uniform for their passing-out parade, only donning the smorgasbord of styles that makes up the modern army afterwards.

Outrage, what a waste of taxpayers money!!:)

[Canadian Break]

Your comment may have been tongue in cheek - in which case ignore what I am about to say.

I can recall the time when there was talk of the UK following the (then) Canadian model of a single Defence Force. I well remember the angst that was expressed by members of all three Services; one of the endearing things about the British Army for us "outsiders" (light blue myself) is the idiosyncrasies of the organisation - which include regimental dress etc. We in the light blue tried to follow their lead with Sqn Cummerbunds and the like. So please,please stop knocking the differences - in terms of budget I suspect the cost is peanuts and is more than offset by the esprit de corps such differences engender. C B:=

[Failed_Scopie]

Nope. IOT is currently 36 weeks. Having seen it at close quarters a year ago, it is a far superior course than any that went before it as well.

That would not be hard...

[Failed_Scopie]

36 weeks - crikey twice as long as when I went through. It was complete bolleaux then and just bearable, but 36 weeks? Really? You get less for ABH these days!


24 weeks was bad enough - it could have been over and done with in 12...

[Failed_Scopie]

As the largest service the army would expect to take the lead so the course would most likely churn out infantry officers which would not meet the requirements of the RAF or RN. There could be a 'joint' ('Joint' in army-speak = 'army') first term before the 3 services split for more focused training but that would negate much of the potential savings. The graduation parade would look messy with the 3 differing uniforms or would everyone wear the same (army) uniform?


A Royal Military University Sandhurst would be an excellent idea, with those who are not destined for it's hallowed halls but are suitable for commissioning going to Single Service Officer Cadet Training Units. Your comment about Infantry Officers assumes that the Army is an amorphous mass, it is not. The technical Corps have far more in common with their RAF and RN counterparts than they do with the Infantry...

[Ken Scott]

But if you replace Sandhurst, Dartmouth & Cranwell with a single course for the (pre-selected) high flyers at Sandhurst & then send the 'also-rans' to single service OCTUs (at Dartmouth, Cranwell & somewhere for the army?) where's the saving in real estate? Do you not in fact end up with one additional institution?

[The Old Fat One]

36 weeks...do retreads have to do this as well? Holy Crap Batman! When I went through (88) it was tolerable for 14 weeks, until Camp 2 was completed, after that it was mind-numbing waste of time.

[Failed_Scopie]

But if you replace Sandhurst, Dartmouth & Cranwell with a single course for the (pre-selected) high flyers at Sandhurst & then send the 'also-rans' to single service OCTUs (at Dartmouth, Cranwell & somewhere for the army?) where's the saving in real estate? Do you not in fact end up with one additional institution?

Not at all. The OCTU's could be 'lodged' within Single Service recruit training establishments, a bit like the Royal Marine's set up at CTCRM Lympstone. As for OCTU students being 'also rans', not necessarily no. But it makes no sense whatsoever to put SSC candidates on a commission course which exceeds 6 months...