Church Fenton

[olicana]

Daft question time. I have seen the Notam notifying the Church Fenton ATZ is suspended from the 1/1/14. What will be happening to the MATZ, will it be missing from the next VFR chart that is printed.

[guyleedsutd]

I suppose it will I fly from sherburn and the new rule is a standard overhead join at 2000 feet:ok:

[7of9]

Yes it's now shut.

There is a thread on Military on this subject heading as Church Fenton.

Based aircraft moved to Linton on Ouse mid December so as far as I am aware there are no aircraft at Fenton now.

Trevor.

[sapperkenno]

I suppose it will I fly from sherburn and the new rule is a standard overhead join at 2000 feet


How exciting! Perhaps they can mention it over the radio when people call up to join, along with all the other rubbish r/t about not overflying villages etc. Then pilots inbound can contend with trying to spot everybody else on an "ECHO departure/arrival" flying around in a 5 mile wide swathe at all kinds of altitudes.

Unfortunately something as simple as funnelling everyone into and out of the place with set routes doesn't really work all that well when people just tend to fan in from the general direction of Selby and all report the same position/routing. :rolleyes:

Are they altering any of the circuit patterns do you know?

[guyleedsutd]

Do you have any suggestions in mind as how to report where you are when inbound/outbound as the procedures that are in use here seem to mimic those of other small airfields.

[md 600 driver]

According to the notam it's only the ATZ that is being suspended for 3 months only . Not the MATZ

There is no mention of the MATZ

[olicana]

My thoughts exactly, I can't find a reference to the MATZ.

[ak7274]

How about calling up with 5-10 miles to run with "inbound to you from the North, South, East or West" and asking for arrival information?
Then conform to the standard OHJ and Circuit pattern.
Just a suggestion of course.

I flew in today and didn't have any problems with reporting points. Just called my position and asked for Airfield info.

[sherburn2LA]

the Standard Arrivals have gone and as said the OHJ is now at 2000 . Circuits are going to be changing to keep away from villages if possible or at least alternate R and L. For good measure from magnetic drift or possible just regular waterborne drift 29/11 will become 28/10

Looking forward to the 500' passes over the Fenton runways

[sapperkenno]

Do you have any suggestions in mind as how to report where you are when inbound/outbound...

On paper, the current idea is great. In practice however, on busy days, with pilots who are maybe unfamiliar, or just useless at flying over a point on the ground, it doesn't work and it can become difficult. Situational awareness is in no way aided by the person on the ground with the radio, as they give no idea of other traffic. So all you get of any use is a runway, circuit direction and QFE.

My understanding of the echo arrival is to join from bang overhead Selby (presumably now at 2000' QFE) and route directly to the airfield to arrive overhead and descend on the dead side of the circuit. On a few occasions I've heard club aircraft call up on an "echo arrival" as I've approached Selby, and seen them scattered all over the place. One even routing down from the direction of Acaster Malbis. Obviously we don't all want to meet in midair, and you could argue they were seeing and avoiding, but it's slack and comes down to poor airmanship when people are saying they are joining on the echo arrival, and they are in reality 3-6 miles off course. So it would be better, in my opinion, to say you are "2 miles North East of Selby" or "overhead Selby" etc then everyone knows where to look.

Another silly "rule" there is having everyone do an overhead join, when conditions could easily warrant a join onto base or final.

Anyway, I'm not trying to Sherburn bash, just wishing that some people operating from there would try a bit harder to follow their own rules. :O

Surely no ATZ means no MATZ? Also, why stay up at 500' if you're going to pass the runway? Surely if you're belting down the centreline at 5', you'd still be at least 500' from anything else?

[ak7274]

Joining on base or final just encourages bad airmanship and at a quite busy airfield like Sherburn could be downright dangerous.
At a training airfield, correct circuit procedure is important and aircraft joining willy nilly isn't a great idea.

[sapperkenno]

The bit when I said "conditions could easily warrant a join onto base or final" means when the circuit is quiet. I thought I'd made that clear, but obviously not.

For example; One bloke/lady just departing 28 (formerly 29), nobody else around, me coming in from Selby... so I could easily position for a straight in and land. Then I'd be off the runway by the time he called downwind, and if he's staying in the circuit I wouldn't be a factor.
If said bloke/lady is staying in the circuit, then surely me joining into the same circuit (crossing to the live side just as he's downwind in the worst case) could be a lot more dangerous than if I'd just landed while he was climbing out.

To force everyone into the same bit of airspace when it's busy doesn't seem too clever either.

Then you've got some people who turn crosswind early, others fly a NAVEX out to Garforth over about 10 track miles to position downwind, and others may be doing a bad weather circuit. Why add to the melee if you have the nous to just position onto a tight base or short final without affecting anyone else?

I don't think you can determine airmanship from circuit joining alone. Surely the better display of airmanship comes from somebody who can size up the situation they are presented with, and has the mental capacity to make a sensible decision based on that. Eg: No traffic, I'll join straight in.

[chevvron]

The MATZ was only ever mandatory for military aircraft and advisory for civil aircraft, so just pretend it never existed. The NOTAM closing the ATZ only runs until 3 Mar, and the aerodrome closed NOTAM until 6 Jan, so expect an updated NOTAM by 5 Jan.

[ak7274]

Not wanting to get into a slanging match, but who decides when conditions are favourable?
Sherburn is A/G and an Aircraft en route to Sherburn doesn't know the traffic conditions.
I would be a seriously annoyed if some bleeder called long final if I was late downwind or on base leg.
At a training airfield like Sherburn conforming to the circuit as either published in a flight guide or on the radio has to be better than a pilot deciding his own join.

[chevvron]

Never been to Sherburn but it's PPR and it's up to the aerodrome operator to advise how you should join; the A/G operator can only advise of known traffic and runway availability; thereafter it's up to pilots to decide the safest way to join.

[Lagentium]

I can see both points, I like the OHJ for orientation of the airfield and situational awareness, but the mental picture can also be built up from miles away, listening out for people lining up and also joining the circuit, so the idea of the American style 45 degree join does appeal to me, that's the way I join at Breighton and that's the only place I've flown into with live side joins, flying from Sherburn I've seen all sorts of joining techniques, some good and, erm, some bad!

Cheers, Jim

[Sir George Cayley]

ak7274, there's no place in the cockpit for such feelings.

Flying angry will reduce your concentration at a time you don't need such a distraction.

Also, the a/c which is lowest in the circuit has right of way, so regardless of whatever is said you may have to follow them. And think about non-radio a/c again you might have to separate yourself from them and adjust your flightpath accordingly.

SGC

[ak7274]

Do I sound like I would fly angry?
Sorry if that seems to be the case, but I don't. However I believe if airfield rules dictate a circuit, who am I to change it, or indeed do something contrary to air law in not following airfield procedures?
If thinking that arriving at an airfield in any way I see fit because I think the circuit isn't busy works. I don't want to be there thank you.
Not angry at all. Just don't understand how a straight in or base join is acceptable just because a pilot on his/her way in can think this way.
I am thinking especially about non - radio. How would he hear a final call and how would the guy calling final know he was there?
Asking A/G if there is any known traffic may help when traffic is quiet and I have no issues at all with joining base or final if they answer "No Known Traffic" I know it's not correct, but......
I have heard many "Final" calls having called downwind only to find the "final" was from 6 or 7 miles out and the pilot didn't want to join the circuit because the active runway was directly in front of him. Do you not feel even slightly annoyed when this happens?
I also don't understand why an aircraft which is lowest in the circuit has right of way. If a circuit is posted as 1000ft downwind leg should be at a thousand feet. If an aircraft is behind me by a mile at 700ft and I am at 1000ft almost ready to turn base, should I extend my downwind or leave and rejoin? This is a genuine question and not intended to cause a furore as I have read the relevant section and have seen that the lower A/C does indeed have right of way.

[chevvron]

2 aircraft on final the lower one shall have right of way is what he means; this doesn't apply to 'long' final though. I would suggest it is meant to refer to 'on final inside 2nm' or some such distance.
When gliding this is an essential rule to remember.

[Flyingmac]

I suppose it will I fly from sherburn and the new rule is a standard overhead
join at 2000 feethttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Time to amend the website details then?:=

[sapperkenno]

If the rules are OHJ, that's what I do - before I upset anyone. So every time I pop into Sherburn, I do the full thing. My problem with it, is that if there is nobody about, at all, then why do I need to fly a complete arrival, when I could just as easy position onto final at a mile and land. I don't need to see the signal square as I've been told the runway, and it ties in with what the wind's doing, so I might as well just land. Obviously I maintain a good lookout, and listening watch, to make certain it would be safe to fly such an approach. You can clearly see from about 5 miles away any aircraft taxiing out, or holding etc, and will have built up a picture by listening as to who might be doing what. So if nobody is in the circuit, nobody is joining from anywhere else, and nobody is waiting to takeoff, then why can't I just get on the deck without adding another 3 minutes of flying time?

I think Sherburn's argument is that they wouldn't be able to change the judgement of pilots flying there, and you'd likely get a few people p*ssing others off by cutting in, and racing to get onto final. So a one size fits all approach covers them. I just think there could be some leeway, as in the real world, there doesn't seem much point doing a full overhead join when conditions, aircraft type and pilot experience/ability doesn't always warrant it.

[PA28181]

"You can clearly see from about 5 miles away any aircraft taxiing out, or holding etc". At 29 yrs, your eyes are better than mine then. :-)


PS:- Time for SkyDemon to catch up as well....

[Flyingmac]

SD is giving correct details for Fenton.

[PA28181]

Just loaded SD Lite and it's showing an active ATZ & MATZ on the chart but OK in the Notams? EDIT. Just looked again and the box has just appeared with the info when clicking on the ATZ but still showing the ATZ circle.

[ShyTorque]

Problem with the OHJ is that it's quite possible for more than one aircraft to arrive in the overhead at the same altitude, at the same time, from different directions. Many pilots think all they need to do is to make the standard "book" calls and that is all. They believe they must be safe, because they are following the "book" procedure.

They might not be safe..... all the OHJ does is move the point of possible aircraft / aircraft conflict. Ever been in the situation where you've called "Overhead" and begun the descent only to hear another aircraft also call "Overhead" immediately afterwards? From personal experience, it quite rightly makes your hair stand on end. Is the second joining aircraft above, or below? Is he/she on the correct altimeter setting yet? Are they aware of your presence?

I've had this happen more than once in the four decades I've been flying (and instructing). Once I was supervising a PPL from the right seat when this happened. Unknown to us, another aircraft was following us very close in. The pilot had been doing so for some miles and was gaining, but made no effort to keep his distance, nor a previous call to advise other pilots of the fact that he was joining at that airfield (we had). The "overhead" call was the first call he made.

Obviously, there could also be a non-radio "joiner" up there at any time.

Maybe the OHJ protagonists would put forwards their opinion of what the "book" action is, in this instance.... ;)

The real answer is to look out, listen out, and use the radio to communicate properly, and to use your noggin, not merely "follow the book".

(And don't formate without previous agreement, in particular in the overhead!).

[chevvron]

sapperkenno: can you also see the non - radio aircraft which may be joining which the A/G Operator doesn't tell you about because he doesn't know about them?

[Flyingmac]

Just loaded SD Lite and it's showing an active ATZ & MATZ on the chart but
OK in the Notams?

The ATZ is suspended, not abolished, so SD is correct. The MATZ remains.

[md 600 driver]

Has Sherburn still got the opposite circuits for helicopter ?

[PA28181]

To sum up CF. The aerodrome is closed until 06/01/2014. The ATZ is deactivated until 03/03/2014 with an active aerodrome from the 6/1/2014? and the MATZ is still active during the time the airfield is closed?. Does anyone know why??? I ask this because although I live in the "sarf" I visit Sherburn regularly.

[fabs]

Can confirm that the MATZ and ATZ are suspended until March. Two NOTAMS (one for ATZ and one for MATZ) should have been sent out in Nov/Dec, we were under the impression that had happened. It will be sorted on Monday.

The airfield is still MOD property and it is expected that the M/ATZ will be closed permanently in the Springtime (although they have tried to shut Fenton before). So far as charts are concerned AIDU will ensure the AIP is updated in due course. As to all the private documentation/flight map companies are concerned, I don't know when they will be updated, I guess when they get no reply from SATCO in their annual trawl for information.

Happy New Year, speak to some of you in the coming months on the airwaves.

A Linton ATC Member.

[Flyingmac]

Thanks fabs.

All the best for the New Year to you and your colleagues at Linton from the Bagby flies in your ointment:ok:

[Vlad the Imbiber]

According to the AIP, a MATZ is operative when the aerodrome concerned is open. So, Church Fenton having closed, there is no active MATZ. It's normal practice to issue a NOTAM confirming this, though. However it's also normal for such NOTAMs to take quite a while to emerge (e.g. Filton).

[Mach Jump]

so the idea of the American style 45 degree join does appeal to me, that's the way I join at Breighton and that's the only place I've flown into with live side joins,

Hi Jim.

Please don't do 'American style' joins at Breighton, however appealing it may be. They're not in America. :=

There are often non radio aircraft practicing displays on what would be the dead side, so you shouldn't overfly below 2,000' or descend on the 'dead side'. This rules out the British Standard Overhead Join as well.

The recommended join there is from Loftsome Bridge Reservoir, south of the airfield, (with the two wind turbines) at 700' QFE, directly onto a right base for 11 or directly onto a left base for 29.

Alternatively, from Sherburn, you could join 'straight in' on final for 11, or directly onto left downwind for 29 at 700'. :ok:

MJ

[thing]

I like Sherburn, we have our planes serviced there so it's a regular trip for me but it does get a bit daft at times; I've been cut up more than once. It's not unique to Sherburn but there are some cavalier attitude pilots around. It's not a big deal to wait your turn.

I'm quite excited at the thought of seeing it from 2,000' actually.

[Lagentium]

Evening Mach Jump, I've never done the kind of join I described, I just appreciate its simplicity. I daren't do anything away from the norm or what I'm meant to do! Thinking about it, I'm slightly boring!!!!

Cheers, Jim

[fireflybob]

They might not be safe..... all the OHJ does is move the point of possible aircraft / aircraft conflict. Ever been in the situation where you've called "Overhead" and begun the descent only to hear another aircraft also call "Overhead" immediately afterwards? From personal experience, it quite rightly makes your hair stand on end. Is the second joining aircraft above, or below? Is he/she on the correct altimeter setting yet? Are they aware of your presence?

ShyTorque, I agree that no system (even the US 45 degree join) is completely "bullet proof". But broadly speaking if all a/c are joining from 2,000 ft in the correct manner the first a/c to call "Dead Side Descending" will be ahead of (and theoretically lower than) a following a/c etc.

I don't see the point of calling "Overhead" and then subsequently calling "Dead Side Descending" as is, I believe, shown on the CAA pic of an OHJ. You have already called for joining information (not "instructions" assuming you are talking to A/G or AFISO) with, ideally, some indication as to position for the benefit of other a/c. To my mind an overhead call can create more confusion.

That said the main thing that concerns me are those who descend on the dead side in a straight line (often parallel to the runway) rather than in a descending turn which has the benefit of a) clearing airspace below and b)a good view of the runway to look for a/c taking off and/or going around which may affect where one can intelligently fit into the traffic pattern.