Becoming an ex-pat or staying a national

[Chadflies]

I've heard so many stories from my fellow Canadian co-workers about what it's like working overseas, some good, but mostly bad. I'm sure you've heard the same, no job security, you can get laid off in a moments notice, far harder working conditions, and just the general struggles with adjusting to a different country and culture.

Thought I'd take it to the source and get your take, the good the bad, and the ugly. To me, working overseas seems amazing, for starters you don't have to deal with eight months of winter.. And trust me, that may be all the reason I need! Lol!

[Plazbot]

I don't work for Emirates but I understand no one has ever been fired as a pilot. Correct me if I am wrong of course.

Attitude is the key. If you accept this is home you will enjoy it. I personally do. I laugh at the bull**** knowing I can go back to the real world but that said, I don't want to. Nor does my family. I find that those who send the family home often struggle the most.

[Bindair Dundat]

This is such an individual question but two things...do you have a family? And are you ready for a 10 year plus commitment?
If you have kids, you will live a VERY average lifestyle on an FO salary and not likely put away much money (if any) until you see an upgrade which is stretching out to more like 5 - 7 years now at EK. Doesn't seem like a problem but you will be surrounded by expats who appear to be flush with cash and spend it at every turn. It is a hard place to live a frugal lifestyle with any quality of life and not feel like you are being shafted. Everything costs there and if you have kids...schooling and activities costs are through the roof and a lot of dubious quality there.
It's just not the great gig that it used to be.
As for weather, expect four months of near perfect conditions between November to mid-March. Once the end of April hits, you are in it...super hot, humid conditions for a solid five to six months without breaks. There are no fluctuation in the plus 40 degree range and very little do except spend the time inside the four walls of your villa or shopping mall. Totally different to a winter where the temperature can range from pretty lovely to brutally cold. Even in Canada I suspect you would be hard pressed to find a place that was solidly sub minus twenties for a four month stretch, unless you are talking extreme North.
Alot to consider but I wouldn't touch it if I had a family. Not a bad gig for a single guy though.

[ruserious]

I don't work for Emirates but I understand no one has ever been fired as a pilot. Correct me if I am wrong of course.

No That is not correct at all, however totally agree with your point
Attitude is the key

There is always a little fear factor here, but in general good operators who play the game keep their jobs with ease.

[BigGeordie]

Nobody at EK has been made redundant, plenty have been fired. However, do your job to a reasonable standard, keep your profile low and pick your battles and you should be fine. Job security for those who can fit in is very good- what it would be like if EK ever started to loose money I dread to think.

[The Turtle]

It would be redundancies out of seniority to both the FO's AND the Captain's list....no downgrades I'd imagine

[White Knight]

I hardly think redundancies are likely; Massive numbers of new aircraft to come (not just fleet replacement either)...

[YFlex]

"Far harder working conditions"
....??????
Having worked 25years in The Great White North.....I'd say "NO way close"

[WASALOADIE]

The weather is great which is a real bonus. Yes getting used to the way of life there is a hurdle but not that much of a problem. The biggest problem is the uncertainty. I had my contract terminated without warning after 9 months for no real reason (they just do it if they feel like it) and I'm owed 3 months salary which I doubt I'll ever see. If you go there, save as much cash as you can, send it home. Enjoy as much as the middle east can give you, but always be ready for the quick exit. If you have family going with you then make sure they always have an exit strategy. In hindsight, I now use the phrase "money isn't everything".

[High Energy]

I love the Middle East and yes I too have been made redundant here at short notice but managed to find another job in the M.E quite quickly. There's a few things you have to get your head around and make sure you fully understand those because fighting it will make your life complicated and leave you frustrated.

Firstly you are in their country and there is a different religion and culture than back home. Things are done way different and don't try and improve it. You'll always rank behind a local and it's your fault even though you might have propably been right. Ce'st la vie, just accept it and move on.

Life is xpensive here. Before coming over make a choice and stick by it. You'll either go for money in the bank/back home or go for a lovely lifestyle and have just enough to survive the month, don't even think of saving. (assuming f/o with wife and kids) The claim it's tax free and on your monthly payslip that's in theory correct. But there are some ways they claim back that money you would otherwise have paid to the goverment. What do you think pays for all the bling bling etc? :)

Uncertainty. Your visa is only valid for 2, or some GCC countries 3 years. Some add a seperate contract duration to it, some don't. Nothing is permanent even if it's specified so. Rent is expensive and expect to pay a hefty sum and even more so after every two years. Schooling will cost you an arm and a leg too, even if the company has a set allowance for it. Expect to start paying out of your own pocket from year 2 or 3 onwards. (nursery and <4 yrs is fully on yourself) All classes and hobbies for kids are seriously expensive!

And yes it's bloody hot for 6 months, seriously hot! 4 months are lovely and the other two are so so.

Although you'll have lot's of likeminded friends quicky it's difficult and expensive for friends and family to visit you. Make sure your kids and wife settle in quickly as it will be a big shock for them. You'll be off flying and doing what you like but the wife is at home between 4 walls, sometimes with screaming kids to entertain her. Make sure she drives and gets on facebook/forums quickly to get her, and the kids, out of the house and comfortable.

You'll miss home and the things you are used to. But always remember there are other things here that make you're life 'richer'. Things you wouldn't have done/seen/experinced if you had stayed in your comfort zone. Depending on the airline obviously, but I would say it is not a career choice for life. Lot's of folks who are here out of necessity, not choice.

Life is what you make of it but just come prepared. Make no illusion, if you can be replaced by a local, they will. The good thing is the expension of some of these companies is so vast it just can't be crewed with locals only.

Redundancy. It has happend to me and I understand it, it doesn't make me bitter or angry. Just wary and prepared. The M.E. has so far given me opportunities I would have never had in Europe, and much quicker too. (Working)Life here is much easier than previously back home. No plans to go back to the civilized world any time soon...

[GoreTex]

how long have you been here high energy?

[Laker]

High Energy,

Out of curiosity what do you love about living in the middle east? Everything you listed in your post seemed seemed negative.

[YFlex]

High Energy
One of the most concise, comprehensive
unbiased, straight forward and honest
Opinions of "life" in the dunes

For Me,
Come with "eyes open wide" and you will enjoy flying in this part of the world

[High Energy]

I've been in the GCC for a number of years and my youngest was born here too. Very impressed with the medical attention and care.

I know my post could be percieved as negative but my aim was to highlight only those facts as for an outsider it's difficult to get a good perspective of what's in store. We all know about the things to see/do in certain countries but hearing/reading what it's like to actually live there is different, I assume that's what the original poster was after.

Why do I like it? My kids go to a fantastic school, have a great mixed and broad view of life/the world. They get into contact with cultures and habits they would otherwise have missed. Same for the wife and visiting family/friends. You get to do some amazing things you would otherwise not have experienced. (IMHO) 4-6 months of great weather, bbq'ing, swimming in your own pool in the backyard and just enjoying what life has to offer in general. I just make sure my leave is planned between may-oct so I only have to bear 4 months of 'oven like' temps.

My job is secure and my company is expanding at a incredible pace. Yes the flying is different than back home. All nighters, 1am check-in's, warzones etc. But that's the middle east for ya. Don't come here if you hate that. Yet I've got more days off per month, more leave than back home, less nightstops, pretty much in control of my own roster and A LOT more quality time with my family. Yet I fly more block hours than back home. I'm one of those pilots who actually likes to fly a lot. My current company is well organized and forward thinking with state of the art equipment. Not this bullsh*t of penny pinching, downsizing, many annoying health-and-safety, security rules etc etc. Flying wise the challenges of different weather extremes/climates etc is what I do miss but that doesn't outweigh the other positives.

I make good money, more than I would ever make back home and still have enough disposable income to enjoy what's left at the end of the month whilst enjoying living in a fantastic house/area. The wife loves it and she has a good social circle and is really active and content. Same can be said for the kids. What more do I want...?

Again, this is just my 0.02c. It's such a delicate subject that is quite personal. It all depends on where you are in life, what you want from it and what's currently happening to you. I know it's not for some but I'm enjoying it for now. And yes, it's only untill we feel our time's up, are able to move elsewhere (aka it's always been a personal quest to move to a certain continent/country/airline) when the markets improve and the financial situation is sound. Untill then, life here's quite good.

I'm just the messenger of my experience... :ok:

Edit: If you want another very entertaining but oh so true blog about living in Abu Dhabi/UAE then please read this (http://thereluctantemigrant.wordpress.com/) blog and make sure your wife reads it too. I think many of us here with a family can relate to her blog. Although she has just moved to Jakarta, scrolling back through the archives gives you quite a good insight into life in Abu Dhabi/UAE. (in this example) Other parts of the GCC, excluding Saudi/Kuwait/Iran/Yemen etc etc, are pretty similar.

[bringbackthe80s]

Chadflies at the end of the day what you get is a job. If you need one by all means go to the M.E. or anywhere you can find a good company/compromise and enjoy the experience.

If you have a good/good enough career already then stay where you are and see the world during your holidays.

I am afraid it is as simple as that. It saves you leaving, realising what you had wasn't so bad, and start moaning non stop. Like I have seen many do.

[harry the cod]

Regarding EK, no pilot has ever been made redundant or been fired. However, plenty have 'resigned'! :suspect:

Harry

[jafarc]

Guys

Can you please confirm that as an family fo in ek, no name, qr you do not save anything ?

[donpizmeov]

Jafarc,

How old are your kids, and how many? They at school? This makes a big difference. Pre school age you will do ok. School age things become a bit tight. Do you want family holidays each year? It all costs, and the older the kids the more it costs. I wouldn't plan on much savings until command time.

When I was FOing the profit cher use to pay off my credit card bill built up over the year. Unfortunately it would seem that cher won't be playing here anymore.

The don

[jafarc]

Thank you don

In my case they are school age. I get your point

Cheers

[mhk77]

Admittedly I'm not at FO in EK, I'm an ATCO, but I have plenty of friends who work for EK and as far as I'm aware, by the time things like flight pay and allowances are factored in, the FO's take home pay each month isn't far off what we in ATC are on.

Based on that, I don't understand how people are saying that you can't save here. I have a young family (wife, 2 kids), and although some things are more expensive than Europe, other things aren't. We're not party animals by any stretch, but nor are we hermits who lock ourselves away in the villa or apartment. We're still saving a significant amount of money each month.

We have our accomodation paid for (like the EK guys and gals) as well as all our bills covered, and although the kids haven't started school yet, when they do the company will cover it. If I have to top it up a little bit by then, so be it. I don't have a mortgage to pay here, I don't have any household utility bills to pay, running my car is dirt cheap compared to back home, my salary is more than I was earning back home and I don't lose anything by way of income tax. My health cover is covered by the company and although I have to pay a deductible on any treatment, It's no more than an NHS prescription charge back in the UK.

Which is why I don't understand why some people say they can't save money here.

If you fall into the trap of thinking as soon as you get here you have to have the biggest, shiniest car, eat at the most expensive restaurants a couple of times a week, have a maid to look after your little darlings so that wifey can sun it up with the other Jumeirah Janes, as well as regular brunches, then I guess it adds up.

But we've found that as long as you're relatively sensible, you can have a great life here, with regular 'Dubai recharge' trips outta here every couple of months, as well as saving a decent sum of money too.

[Widebdy]

mhk77's post seems to raise a valid point. Why are Pilots apparently struggling if rent and the majority of the schooling is paid for? Is this isolated to FO with more then 1 kid or is it across the board?

Some comments like the majority are in UAE out of "necessity not desire" are also being made. This is a strong statement. I am weighing up a move. I currently live in a city almost as expensive as Dubai (rent excluded). Although I am enjoying working with my airline I remain without a permanent contract and opportunity for long haul. If money can be saved in EK is it really such a clear cut "stay in Europe"? What premium should be paid to live in Europe paying rent and being taxed to the neck?

[Bindair Dundat]

And herein lies the difference ".....my kids have not started school yet"
We saved heaps of money before kids but once they started schooling in Dubai, forget about it. What I pay for two kids activities and lessons for the entire school year back home, I paid for one for one semester in Dubai.
We were glad for the opportunity but equally glad to be done with life there as our kids got older. We still save, travel and our quality of life is much better on our home country.
If you have a good gig back home, and have a family, I don't see a massive benefit to being an expat in the Middle East now. Packages have not kept up with inflation and look to get squeezed further with Expo.

[Widebdy]

Thanks Bindair.

Anyone care to share typical school fees .v. allowance? School fees seems to be the recurrent and strongest argument given rent is usually covered by the companies. Is everyone generally in agreement it is the school fees that make the big difference between being happy with the financial package and unhappy?

Anyone who regards the financial deal as acceptable have an opinion on staying in Europe or become an expat?

[Chadflies]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.. I don't have a family that includes kids.. But I hope to in the near future. The image I have of living over seas is that it's a great opportunity to save a lot of money, tax free, and enjoy flying on some of the most state of the art equipment. If moving there would turn into a financial struggle more that a benefit.. That wouldn't be what I'm looking for.. Warm weather or not ;)

[Chadflies]

Solid point.. Stick with the enemy you know vs. The monster you don't.. From what your saying, look to the Middle East if your job prospects are nil, or if your looking to finish off your last few years of flying and make some extra cash.

[Kiwikid]

For an idea of fees have a look at GEMS Education | Learn. Aspire. Be (http://www.gemseducation.com/gems-schools) one of the bigger private education companies in the UAE. Most of the individual school sites will have their fees listed if you dig down a bit.
As an idea our kids school charges around 45000 dhs per year for primary age, going up to nearly 70000 by year 13. It is just about impossible to get into any of the older, cheaper schools and the brand new ones are even more expensive.

Remember there are after school activities such as sports and music to add on and most of those will set you back more than 1000dhs/term. It's very easy to spend an extra 5-10k per child there. Then there is the general weekend/holiday entertainment. Sure you don't have to do those things but keeping the kids happy when it is 40 degrees plus outside takes a bit of work.

[JammedStab]

Each person is different. But consider for a minute one thing. You come from a large country which is as big as Europe. Many of the jobs in the country will take you away from your preferred home for a long time. In effect, you can be the equivalent of an expat in your own country if you are stuck in a faraway province or territory at a job that doesn't allow you to get home much. Especially if that home is already in an out of the way location where there are no flying jobs.

International locations may be more interesting to you than Yellowknife although that may or may not apply to the locals depending on where you are/could be.

[trent1974]

This is such an individual question but two things...do you have a family? And are you ready for a 10 year plus commitment?
If you have kids, you will live a VERY average lifestyle on an FO salary and not likely put away much money (if any) until you see an upgrade which is stretching out to more like 5 - 7 years now at EK. Doesn't seem like a problem but you will be surrounded by expats who appear to be flush with cash and spend it at every turn. It is a hard place to live a frugal lifestyle with any quality of life and not feel like you are being shafted. Everything costs there and if you have kids...schooling and activities costs are through the roof and a lot of dubious quality there.



I am not going to disregard Bindair's argument completely but let me tell you that I have been living in Dubai for 4 years, I have two kids in school (the company mostly pays for it), I am still an FO, and we live a better lifestyle than we would in my home country. We have also saved over 100,000 AED in 3 years; this is in addition to the provident fund where 17% (5% from me and 12% from the company) of my basic salary goes every month. Basic salary is about 28,000 AED per month so you can do the math. In those first few years we also had the highest expenses you can have; our kids were in nursery for a while (the company does not pay for it); we were paying off a car; my wife was doing her Master's degree at a university. Even with all this we managed to save a significant amount of money as indicated above.


Now, that being said, I will say that we do not have a Ferrari, we do not own a yacht and we do not eat out at 5 star restaurants every day.


So, if those things are important to you then don't bother coming here.


Cheers,


Trent

[Widebdy]

my wife was doing her Master's degree at a university.

What is the employment situation for the wives? Are the bigger companies generally run like international firms. For example can a professional woman expect to progress and be promoted as she would in Europe?

Happy wife = happy pilot.

[trent1974]

What is the employment situation for the wives? Are the bigger companies generally run like international firms. For example can a professional woman expect to progress and be promoted as she would in Europe?

Happy wife = happy pilot.





Hi Widebdy,


All kinds of different people will give you vastly different answers to that question. Here is what I have seen.


We are friends with a French couple who originally came here for her husband's job and his wife has ended up with a very respectable position in another company.


I have the opinion that your spouse may experience more resistance or discrimination than she is used to at home but I don't see any evidence that spouses cannot find a very decent job here.


I would suggest she put some effort into networking as soon as she can. My wife has met some people in her MBA course that have already offered her a position in the company they work for. They are middle to top management in the company.


Cheers,


Trent

[Widebdy]

Thanks Trent.

And what about career progression for us lowly Pilots in the UAE operators? Do the "interesting jobs" go to locals or is there opportunities for expats who might wish to vary their line flying with some ops, training or hr roles etc? Or are we expected to stick to our line roles?

[Plazbot]

For wife jobs, typically you will see 6-10k a month. Many employers like the already landed spouses as there is no housing/visa/flight etc responsibility for them. For example my Mrs works for a relocation company paying 1000/day for between 8 and 12 days per month but worked in her real world job at first for less. I also work with people with teacher or nurse wives and 10k seems to be the going rate. That said, I know of a few examples who have landed gigs with extras that are above 30k/month but are rare.

Don't let the Pprune doom and gloom dictate your choice. The only more toxic website than this is expatwoman.com. Bored wives are far worse than disenfranchised men. You can have a great time here. Many do including me. I am not a long timer but in my 5th year I think I have seen enough to form an opinion. The biggest trap, like any work place is to let the angry or disheartened to become your reality. Go to work, do your job and go home. Write a list of why you came here with the pros and cons of both locations. Add and subtract as the time goes by as it is easy to forget.

As for development for yourself, you have been hired for a task, that is what they want you for. Usual progression within those tasks is probably accelerated though such as commands, training, supervisory but certainly it is unusual to step sideways. Not unheard of though.

[40&80]

British pilots should consider the advantages of them being a non resident worker in the Middle East whilst their wife and children retain their UK residency advantages which I feel they will find by experience or investigation are many.

[Flyingmachine01]

Well In Australia..... Not many options at all..
The Expat life is something I have to consider...
QF has done Absolutely nothing in 5 years...Virgin stopped Hiring..
LCC are hiring but It would be nice to fly for some sort of Legacy airline.. all be it being in the UAE area..
I am definitely considering my options and it really depends on Fleet allocation.

FM01

[Landflap]

40 & 80 : Wouldn't that leave the expat liable to UK taxes ? Wife & family in the Uk at a Residence available for use (it clearly would be) would start him off down the route of "Ordinarily Resident". UK Tax Officials are now looking at this very scenario, very closely.

[BDiONU]

UK Tax scenario Information on the new UK Statutory Residency Test | Financialuae's Blog (http://financialuae.me/2013/02/12/information-on-the-new-uk-statutory-residency-test/)