Babes, Booze and Nukes

[ORAC]

Wr is Boring: Babes, Booze and Nukes (https://medium.com/war-is-boring/87ce3d962348)

How the Air Force general in charge of nuclear missiles almost wrecked relations with the Russians

[Lima Juliet]

By the look of the pictures at least he did it in style in his flying suit! :ok:

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

Interesting Stats here:

But to Carey — at the time the head of the 20th Air Force, America’s main nuclear ICBM strike force, with 9,600 airmen and 450 continent-blasting Minuteman missiles —.

Carey in charge of an air force, had 10,000 men. In V-force days, AOC 1 Gp, also a 2-star, had a very similar number of personnel at Bawtry, Finningley, Scampton, Waddington, Nocton Hall, Lindholme, and Cottesmore.

[VinRouge]

Typical route for a Moscow trail crew... :E

[awblain]

When in Rome…

It can be considered rude not to partake.

However, he does seem to have been ill-briefed/prepared for this entirely-predictable scenario.

The idea of having two glasses of wine with dinner on a flight from DC to Zurich hardly seems unreasonable.

The problems seems to have been his boorish and charmless interactions with the Russian interpreter, his lack of vodka management strategies, and understanding of Russian culture - a little odd for a general in charge of nuclear weapons, who presumably has Russian practices in mind regularly.

[Saintsman]

Just goes to show that Americans can't drink ;)

[SASless]

Definitely a Non-Hacker! Light weight....should not wear Wings if he cannot keep up!:E

Head of the Nuclear Air Force....goes to Russia....and doesn't have his Shields up!

So typical of our Senior Leadership.....flat assed stupid!

But then.....Obama likes this kind of Officer.....compliant, obedient, controllable, and predictable!

[Pontius Navigator]

Claiming he could not understand the Russians’ military interpreter — described as an “attractive” young woman — Carey told one of his Russian-speaking teammates to take over the translating.

Is this not SOP? If you rely on their interpreter then you can miss nuances in the translation therefore you use your own interpreter.

As for the drink, nothing excessive there? :)

[Surplus]

All that drink spread over so much time, hardly 'First Night Madness' .

[Shack37]

Could have been written by the Daily Grail fanatics. Of course you use your own interpreter. Hardly an overdose of alcohol given the timescale and who was counting?

Posted by SASless

But then.....Obama likes this kind of Officer.....compliant, obedient,
controllable, and predictable!


So, you would prefer your officers to be:
1. Non compliant
2. Disobedient
3. Uncontrollable
4. Unpredictable

[SASless]

I prefer them to be Honorable, Disciplined, Loyal, Honest, Trustworthy, Un-corruptible, Patriotic, Courageous, and Forthright.

Do you prefer yours to be Dishonorable, Un-Disciplined, Dis-loyal, Dishonest, Un-trustworthy, Corrupt, Un-Patriotic, Cowardly, and Deceitful?

Remember we swear and Oath to protect and defend the Constitution.....not the President unlike you folks and the Monarchy.

[Shack37]

I prefer them to be Honorable, Disciplined, Loyal, Honest, Trustworthy, Un-corruptible, Patriotic, Courageous, and Forthright.

Have you any evidence to show that he was none of the above apart from, perhaps, a bit undisciplined with the alcohol?


Remember we swear and Oath to protect and defend the Constitution.....not the President unlike you folks and the Monarchy.


Apart from, WTF does this have to do with anything, is not the President your Commander in Chief?

So, you would prefer your officers to be:
1. Non compliant
2. Disobedient
3. Uncontrollable
4. Unpredictable

Waiting for your answer.

[Pontius Navigator]

As for entertaining two/three FSB agents (not proven) what is wrong with that? It was a liaison mission. Had he spurned their socialising I am sure some of the opposite persuasion might have appeared.

It would appear he knew who they were, revealed nothing, and perhaps learnt something.

The bad thing here is he appears to have been shopped by one of his own staff weenies and not a member of the 4th estate.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Excuse the drift, but a question for SASless.

If that is the case, when "the people" exercise their 2nd amendment rights and form an armed militia to defend themselves from an oppressive government, exactly where will the generals' loyalties lie?

[SASless]

Where do you think?

If you remember.....many US Army Officers resigned and joined the Confederate Army as they saw their loyalty lay else where.

Times are different but not the Human Spirit.

If an Officer sees the existing government being tyrannical....then his duty is to the Constitution and to the Office of the Presidency.....not the person sitting in the Office that is seen to be the problem.

Fortunately, the odds of that happening are very slight as we chunk 'em out by use of the Ballot Box every four to eight years.

You knew before you asked the question what the real answer is....if things get bad enough for the People to rise up against the Federal Government it shall be family that are on the other side of the barricade from the Military.....and not in all cases will you see a pure Brother against Brother Civil War.

I have had this discussion with serving Military Officers who were at Division Commander Rank.....and they acknowledge the possibility that at some point in the future.....there is the possibility the US Military would refuse the Orders of a President. They opined they did not know what would provoke that.....and did not think it very likely.....but that it was a possibility just as any other upheaval could be.

Let me ask you a question.....without the Second Amendment and thus the free ownership of Firearms by the People.....what chance would the People have to reject a government that was so oppressive and tyrannical that it required the People to remove it from power?

We came about because we had the capability to do that back when you lot were running the show as you may recall.

That is why our Constitution came into being to limit the power of Government.....and protect the People from Government. Those feelings and beliefs are still very real...and very strong. We see the best way to limit government is by means of elections. We have a peaceful turnover of power each time that happens so our system must work or has so far anyway.

Also recall our Military Law system demands a Soldier refuse an Unlawful Order and any Order that violates the Bill of Rights and Constitution is an Unlawful Order.

So it would seem our Generals have a Duty to act when it is necessary as their Oath is to the Constitution and not to an individual. Simple concept once you get over thinking the allegiance is to a Person rather than to your fellow Citizen because that is where our Power resides....with the People and not the Government. We just lend some to the government and can withdraw that at any time the People see fit to do so.....be it by voting or taking up Arms.

There have been Civil Wars and Revolutions all down through History.....you think that is not a possibility anymore? It has happened very recently as you recall and is still going on in some places.

We are not immune from that and neither are you in the UK....except you will be throwing rocks and bottles at the ones with the Guns.....as has happened before over there as i recall.

[racedo]

Personally think he did a good job...........

Remember he pretty much told them he can't handle his booze, loves women etc etc.

Now if he had gone there and was totally uptight and suspicious then his hosts would start to worry about another agenda.

On a strict military basis he was ott, however as has been pointed out he was there on a liasion tour.

Kinda hard for Commies......................er Russkis to feel threatened by a man who came and enjoyed their hospitality which is what it was all about.

Its like it was kind of hard to be suspicious or threatened by Boris Yeltsin.

As for head of Space Command...................that's a big job, have seen SG1 :E

[Pontius Navigator]

We are not immune from that and neither are you in the UK....except you will be throwing rocks and bottles at the ones with the Guns.....as has happened before over there as i recall.

The British Armed Forces owe allegiance to the Crown not the head of the Government.

As there are very few guns available in UK you need correspondingly fewer armed people for an insurrection - rocks will work well in that case.

The deciding factor would be the Army as they have the most rifles :) However if a very large, unarmed, but disciplined uprising was to take place would the Army or Police intervene? Remember the soldiers and policemen come from the same stock as your putative insurrectionists.

There was a study many years ago about the potential for a successful revolution or suppression of a revolution. The fewer people that hold the reigns of power, the greater the level of instability.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Just curious:)

If O'barmy keeps up his stealth gun control tactics, i can see it happening quite soon.

As a firearm owner myself, they would have my full support:ok:

[West Coast]

9600 personnel for 450 missiles, that's actually somewhat efficient as compared to other mil and government commands.

[rh200]

9600 personnel for 450 missiles, that's actually somewhat efficient as compared to other mil and government commands.

Could put that into a per warhead statistics, would that be more palatable?:p Or per kilotons of yeild.

[Pontius Navigator]

West Coast, using my earlier comparator, that is one sixth per missile/bomb or the manpower in 1 Group in the 60s. Of course, while the effectiveness and efficiencies of the ICBMs in a cock fight is unquestioned, the flexibility of the manned bomber was better.

[SASless]

As there are very few guns available in UK you need correspondingly fewer armed people for an insurrection - rocks will work well in that case.

Seems you have it quite backwards PN.....are you saying the government has very few guns"

Either you just let out a State Secret that MOD stores the Nation's weapons someplace like Stanley, Antarctica, or Belize for safe keeping....or it would only take a few people to over throw the government.

But in over throwing the government are you not installing a royal dictator and ending the democratic form of government you enjoy now. (I know the word "enjoy" may not have quite the right connotation....but I am sure you know what I am trying to say.)

Would that not be a situation fraught with peril?

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, yes, they have very few guns. Given the size of the armed services they need only low hundreds of thousands. It is quite likely that our Public schools (ie private) have a significant number too. At my school in the '50s there was one rifle pp, one machine gun per 10, one field gun, and 100 rounds ball ammunition pp :)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

By the late 70's, only the field gun had been removed - rest as per PN. I'm pretty sure every Army Cadet had a gun in the 2000's, but don't know the ammo state.
As for the need for rifles...The last time a private school I taught at got robbed, the 3 miscreants bumped into several members of the 1st XV doing their early morning run on their way out. After they were made to carry all the stuff back, they were 'suitably dealt with'. They won't be back.


The Jam - Eaton Rifles - 1979 - YouTube

[Pontius Navigator]

Fox3, I knew about the ammo as we helped carry it up in to the loft above the dorms. The floor of the loft was concrete and the ammunition 'bunker' was behind a padlocked metal door. The armoury in the basement was better protected with proper bars and the usual armoury issue bench inside the door. Rifles chained in racks and bolts secured separately. AFAIK the only grenades we had were drill ones.

The school had been responsible for night coast watching patrols through the war.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I was a CCF Officer as late as 2007, with experience of 3 school CCFs directly and others on camps. I would estimate about a quarter of the approximately 40,000 cadets would be of use in a crisis. Certainly the training I received as a CCF cadet was as good as that which I got on RAF IOT, but our school RSM was the ex-RSM of the Scots Guards.

[BEagle]

I can just about remember the First and Second IA drills for the Bren gun...and how to fire a 3" rocket launcher or 2" mortar. No problems with the Lee Enfield Mk IV or the Sten gun either.

If the revolution needs someone who can sort out a Telephone F Mk 2, Wireless Sets No 38 MkIII or No 88, count me in. I could even work out how to use the Wireless Sets No 19 and the Sender Wireless No. 12 / Receiver 107 with a bit of effort.

All thanks to Monday afternoon CCF time at public school in the 1960s!

[SASless]

So....these Upper Class Schools....with all these guns....which side will they fall out on....the People or the Government?



How many guns amongst the common folk?


Of course we don't know about guns, if any, amongst the criminal element what with the strict gun laws and such.

[BEagle]

How many guns amongst the common folk?



Unless they're criminals, such as drug dealers, then the answer is none.

A few shotguns for those with the appropriate licence, but otherwise that's it.

[Pontius Navigator]

So....these Upper Class Schools....with all these guns....which side will they fall out on....the People or the Government?.

That depends on which side the Government was on :)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

English private schools have a genuinely liberal education, in the non-political sense of liberal. They study the civil war, and in the event of revolution are in my opinion likely to fight on the side of justice, whichever side may be closest to that.

[racedo]

So....these Upper Class Schools....with all these guns....which side will they fall out on....the People or the Government?


The one that allows them to keep the status quo.................i.e. them being filthy rich.

Met someone recently who knew friend of mine, he mentioned his Uni and said I knew someone there. He said it was his best mate there as played in same footie team.

Guy said he came into Uni thinking he a good footie player as scored lots of goals at public school, mate went to state school. At trials mate didn't allow him a sniff of a chance at goal and said he marked him out of them game in more ways than one. Guy said he relearnt how he needed to play football to win.

Moral of story is just because someone has been trained to do something and thinks they good doesn't mean they can't be beaten by someone who uses cunning and street tactics. More than a few armies have found that out to their cost.

[PURPLE PITOT]

There are several hundred thousand legally owned firearms (excluding shotguns), in the UK. Even the police admit there are more illegal ones.

A large percentage of those owners are joe average chaps, and of the ones i have shot with, or competed against, 99.9% are well disciplined shooters.

Pretty much every farmer has a shotgun, and most will also have a .22 rimmy, and/or fullbore for pest control.

It's not as uncommon as most people think.

[racedo]

English private schools have a genuinely liberal education, in the non-political sense of liberal. They study the civil war, and in the event of revolution are in my opinion likely to fight on the side of justice, whichever side may be closest to that.

Problem is that whose definition of Justice will it be.........................
Justice to those who have money is a lot different to those who live on breadline.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A valid point.
The average public school pupil's parents are not 'filthy rich'. Quite a large proportion spend a fair whack of their income on their childrens' education. Of a typical group, parents might typically be accountant, doctor, teacher, military officer, building contractor, engineer, etc. The reason they can afford it is often because both parents are professional class, rather than either of them is filthy rich. Of course, there's always one or two who like to arrive by helicopter, but Eton/Cheltenham Ladies' College is not typical (and I have friends who've worked at both of those).
On balance, justice is dependent on the rule of law, and that requires stability. It is not impossible to foresee situations where the Government of the day was the destabilising force.
I have had charge of a PM's son and a Princess at times. They did not expect or receive special treatment. Frankly, the worst were the offspring of lawyers.

[BEagle]

Guy said he came into Uni thinking he a good footie player as scored lots of goals at public school

Good grief - which public school lowers itself so far as to permit its pupils to play Association Football? Are there no standards left these days?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Eton plays soccer, but they're woosies.

[TheWestCoast]

JHC, SASless, does it ever get exhausting being you? I'd have thought the 24 hour paranoia must get to you at some point.

[racedo]

I have had charge of a PM's son and a Princess at times.

Now that would be a marraige made in Henry V111's time.

[GreenKnight121]

Jane & Guildford?

[SASless]

Someone left the Ward Door unlocked again it appears......there! Fixed! Off to the Peanut Gallery where you belong TWC!

[N2erk]

Ok several rum-punches later, I'll wade in.
First ref "whose side will they be on the govt or the people"- i thot in our system, the people were the government.
Second - if you haven't seen it already watch If... (1968) full movie - YouTube 'If' should you not have seen it already- don't bet on which side the kids would join.
Third- wasn't there a tv movie called" a very British Coup" long ago-
Fourth- a movie titled "seven days in May" apparantly JFK thought it was possible -see wiki.
fifth- in my time, "low intensity operations" was the book, I believe, which was sometimes related to 3- still trying to get a copy to read.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

wasn't there a tv movie called" a very British Coup" long ago-

There was!...and I have it on tape...and I used to lend it to the boarders, who enjoyed it a lot..

I was always of the opinion that the best thing I could do for democracy was to help turn out intelligent, considerate, responsible young people with the courage to ask awkward questions and the training to look after themselves. I encouraged the challenging of authority, including my own.

[SASless]

Tommy Jefferson once opined.....

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

I suppose a government that fears the People having firearms must be feared itself.....and thus the harder the government tries to take guns away from the People the harder the People must be to refuse that effort.

Has any Government become more benevolent or trustworthy over the past couple of hundred Years? Has the Government protected our Rights and Freedom or has it assumed yet more power and become more intrusive into our Lives over the past Century or two?

I suppose the 2nd Amendment was the first thing they articulated after talking about our freedom of speech, religion, assembly, and redress of grievances by the Government.

As has been said by a former President....let the Supreme Court use its Army to enforce their Decisions.....without the means to enforce the Law....there is no way to enforce the Law.

As the People are the source of our government's power and the People retain the Absolute Right to define what power the Government should have....it logically follows the People must have the means to enforce their decision to abolish the Government if necessary.

Seems the Founding Fathers really did understand government and its potential to be do evil.

[BEagle]

Just how many more school or workplace shootings will it take before someone wakes up to the fact that the level of gun ownership in the US simply cannot be justified in the 21st century?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Canada has a gun ownership rate over 7 times higher than the UK, and an intentional murder rate only 1/3 higher. Norway has an even higher gun ownership rate, and a murder rate half that of the UK.
Guns, alone, are not the problem.

[SASless]

Fox.....don't confuse the issue with Facts....patently unfair of you.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/966584_242466435878069_1544652708_o.jpg

[Shack37]

How does a thread about the behaviour of a US Officer's liasson visit to another country migrate via the US Constitution through the Xth Amendment to the old worn out "Right to Bear Arms" debate that's been done to death in so many previous threads?

[SASless]

Who cares? What does it matter? Why are you bothered?

[Pontius Navigator]

In the inter-war years there was a significant number of Webley .455 revolvers were retained by former officers. Policing in those days was also very high.

In one novel, giving unwitting evidence, 'she went to the door and called a nearby policeman'.

I don't know the reality of the situation but our fictional heros such as Sherlock Holmes, Bulldog Drummond, Richard Hannay etc all had ready access to firearms and no apparent restrictions on their use.

As gun crime rose from the easy availability of guns, so the laws were amended but the main effect was to remove firearms from the law abiding rather than the criminal element.

Firearms amnesties are still run but generally with the same unbalanced returns.

[vascodegama]

Nothing to do with the abolition of the death penalty then?

[Shack37]

Who cares? What does it matter? Why are you bothered?


You appear to. You tell me. Bored with the same old non relevant carp constantly re-appearing at the least excuse:rolleyes:

[Pontius Navigator]

vasco, while I would vote in favour I am pretty sure, given the general socialist liberal attitudes that it would never be awarded or if awarded, executed.

[SASless]

Then stick to the threads about pay and perks being cut.