Do our armed forces make us safer?

[ShotOne]

Is the work of UK's armed forces as currently deployed making us any safer? The argument has been made that in some ways it actually increases our exposure to attack. While I don't necessarily go along with that, just in today's paper I read of a Yemeni wedding party blown to bits (no apology) and see a photo of a captured Taliban fighter stripped naked, blindfolded and cuffed with cable ties; it's not hard to see how this sort of thing gives plenty of ammo to focus hate on us. Associated question: does it matter? Does doing "the right thing" override the "safety" question ?

[Lima Juliet]

"YES" 24/7 with SAR and MRTs plus other support functions like the ARCC, etc...

Plus a number will be making it safer for you this coming Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve and 3rd of January...


I think the question you should be asking is " Does British Defence Policy make us safer?". I can categorically answer "yes" to HMForces making us safer!

LJ

[Courtney Mil]

Somebody's been reading too much...

http://socialistunity.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/George_Galloway.jpg

[ShotOne]

Leon, yes that may have been a better way to phrase the question. Courtney no I'm certainly not a Galloway fan -but are you telling us his criticisms of Blair re Iraq have been proved incorrect.?

[Courtney Mil]

Not at all, ShotOne. It was more a reference to his chants about any intervention bringing terror and destruction upon us. Legality is not a call I could make.

[SASless]

if we brought every single bit of our Military home....yours to the UK....mine to the USA....no presence or activity whatsoever outside our own Borders and sea frontiers.....do you really think we would be less a target than we are now?

Do you think the Radical Islamists would just say "Thank You! Von Voyage!" and everything would be all Kisses and Hugs and they would go back to herding Goats or whatever they do when not waging Jihad?

[Shack37]

if we brought every single bit of our Military home....yours to the
UK....mine to the USA....no presence or activity whatsoever outside our own
Borders and sea frontiers.....do you really think we would be less a target than we are now?
Do you think the Radical Islamists would just say "Thank
You! Von Voyage!" and everything would be all Kisses and Hugs and they would go back to herding Goats or whatever they do when not waging Jihad?


I suppose it's a possibility that they might just do that and concentrate on terrorising their own. We'll never know unless we try it. Of course, then we have to live with letting them get on with it.

On the bright side, our guys and gals will be out of harms way:ok:

[racedo]

if we brought every single bit of our Military home....yours to the UK....mine to the USA....no presence or activity whatsoever outside our own Borders and sea frontiers.....do you really think we would be less a target than we are now?

Possibly BUT when incident occurs the simple message is Targeted Revenge................er Retribution on who commits it.

In and out staying nowhere.

People will say it won't work but V body bags at Brize Norton or Dover AFB then worth a try.

Russians proved in Beirut in 1980's that kidnap their personnel they send a quick message that could not be misunderstood.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Armed Services have many, many roles that don't get the same visibility of Afg. Anti-drug patrols in the Caribbean; humanitarian missions; maintaining sovereignty and security overseas.

As for intervention in Afg, you might argue that deploying those sorts of numbers for Homeland Security might achieve a similar aim.

[SASless]

Russians proved in Beirut in 1980's that kidnap their personnel they send a quick message that could not be misunderstood.

One does have to admire professionally done work doesn't One!

Here's yer Bro's Wedding Tackle....take a hint, eh!:=

[racedo]

One does have to admire professionally done work doesn't One!

Here's yer Bro's Wedding Tackle....take a hint, eh!:=

No room for claiming something lost in translation.

[SASless]

Definitely universal sign language.....that translates into any language!


For those who don't recall the events that lead up to the "signaling" of intentions by the KGB.

Hostages? No Problem Soviets Offer 'How-to' Lesson In Kidnapping - Philly.com (http://articles.philly.com/1986-01-15/news/26052630_1_hostage-crisis-soviet-captives-islamic-liberation-organization)

[ShotOne]

Sasless you asked "if we brought our boys home.....?" Simple answer, I don't know, my post was a genuine, not a rhetorical, question. But if you're telling us they ARE safeguarding us from radical Islam, you're on shaky ground if only because of the huge amount of blood and treasure we've spent removing regimes which used to deal very harshly with such people.

[SASless]

I am being serious too.

I see both sides of the argument about why the this particular Chicken crossed the road.....but in the final analysis I think regardless of bringing our Troops home we are still going to be targeted by Terrorists of the Radical Islamist style as their brand of Islam just is not compatible or tolerant of our system of beliefs.

So to me...one can argue both ways and be right....but wrong at the same time.

What I do think.....is the Russians get it!

They understand what works and are not afraid to do what works when needed.

We saw that with some Somali Pirates too.

The Russian Navy boarded the ship the Pirates had taken....wounded one of the Pirates and showed him scant attention, loaded the Pirates onto the Pirate Vessel and sent them on their way until just before Dark. Then there was a bit of boom bang....lots of sparks, flame, fire, and smoke. The next day.....it was reported the Pirate vessel had disappeared to parts unknown.

Neptune's Locker we know....but problem solved.

It is very hard to argue with success.

[racedo]

The Russian Navy boarded the ship the Pirates had taken....wounded one of the Pirates and showed him scant attention, loaded the Pirates onto the Pirate Vessel and sent them on their way until just before Dark. Then there was a bit of boom bang....lots of sparks, flame, fire, and smoke. The next day.....it was reported the Pirate vessel had disappeared to parts unknown.

Neptune's Locker we know....but problem solved.

It is very hard to argue with success.

You don't know that and there is no evidence of that.:E

OTOH neither does anybody else :) and nobody appears to be rushing to investigate.

[SASless]

RUSSIAN NAVY CAPTURES SOMALI PIRATES - YouTube

[ShotOne]

It's very tempting but the trouble with the Russian case, and I'm not in favour of being fluffy with either pirates or terrorists, is there is a price to pay. In the pirate case, by the real owners of the "pirate" vessel. The pirates certainly didn't buy it and the original crew may or may not have been on board as it went to Davy Jones.

In the other case, if you trust your government to cut anyone's tackle off when they feel like it, how do you make them stop with terrorists and not extend the same procedure to annoying political opponents?

[Dave Wilson]

In the other case, if you trust your government to cut anyone's tackle off when they feel like it, how do you make them stop with terrorists and not extend the same procedure to annoying political opponents?

I would have no problem with that in principle, the problem would be in finding any opponents in this country that actually had any tackle.

[Pontius Navigator]

Read Vince Flynn.

He makes Andy McNab and Chris Ryan as real pussies :)

[smujsmith]

Shotone,

"In the other case, if you trust your government to cut anyone's tackle off when they feel like it, how do you make them stop with terrorists and not extend the same procedure to annoying political opponents?"

Interesting, I see in a couple of papers today that our beloved Government is now proposing laws to restrict the so called "hate preachers" of the Muslim faith. I suspect that any such law might have to be a little more general than Muslim hate preachers. That being the case, how long after the law comes in to force will anyone who criticises the current government be "put through the wringer" by the lads in blue ? We don't need laws, we need honest representation in our parliament, where MPs represent their electorate, and don't kowtow to their party whips. I suppose, at my age, I should get real and understand that democracy went out of the window years ago.

Smudge:ok:

[Dave Wilson]

Smuj, as we are both ex forces can I delicately remind you that technically we don't live in a democracy and never have...:).

[racedo]

Interesting, I see in a couple of papers today that our beloved Government is now proposing laws to restrict the so called "hate preachers" of the Muslim faith. I suspect that any such law might have to be a little more general than Muslim hate preachers.

Done it this week for someone from Saudi but have also done it to Terry Jones from US.

[orca]

I listened to a reasonable piece on radio 4 about this new task force. The case for the mosques was reasonable as was the case against them wrt either spreading a message of hate or turning a blind eye to it.

What interested me was the researcher was quick to point out that in her work she quickly uncovered that those preaching or being unduly effected by such people actually had very little idea what they were talking about, could name few leaders, identify specific foreign policy issues or could put a figure on how many women and children had been killed by whose drones.

It has always confused me why we don't take a very pragmatic approach of engagement with the public, worldwide - not just the extremist or troubled Muslim youth.

Why don't we, as a military or a nation explain via web, TV or other medium that the boys spend a lot of time keeping various Muslim sects from killing each other? Or that actually we are quite inclusive and simply don't care what religion you practise? Why do we see outraged Muslims at parades but no one actually explaining what the boys and girls did...and the stuff their Muslim hosts did to each other? Or indeed in the Balkan model that a significant part of the mission was to protect a largely Muslim bunch from a largely Christian bunch?

The point is that there are people misinformed enough to become extreme. They are fuelled by a twisted version of our foreign policy which is never publically challenged and could be shown quite easily to be in large part false. In some cases the policy is a clear consequence of acts conducted by others and could do with an explanation.

That would be a little more human than the 'Russian method' which probably has tactical benefits rather than strategic ones.

[Courtney Mil]

SASless,

Either I had forgotten about the Hezbollah/KGB thing back in '86 or had missed it. Either way it's a cracker. Thanks for the link. :ok:

"This is the way the Soviets operate. They do things - they don't talk.

And this is the language the Hezbollah understand." :D

[FODPlod]

The video at Post #16 (http://www.pprune.org/8229262-post16.html) is somewhat misleading:Russian Navy transfers detained Somali pirates to Yemen (http://en.ria.ru/world/20090218/120209688.html)
MOSCOW, February 18 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Navy has handed over to Yemen 10 Somali pirates detained several days ago off the Horn of Africa, Capt. 1st Rank Igor Dygalo told RIA Novosti on Wednesday. The Navy spokesman said the Yemeni authorities would decide on any legal action taken against the detainees... Russia frees captured Somali pirates (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/07/russia-frees-somali-pirates)
Russian forces have released 10 Somali pirates captured during a military operation to free an oil tanker this week, reversing an earlier pledge by President Dmitry Medvedev to punish them "under the full force of naval law". The move highlights the legal and logistical challenges faced by foreign navies targeting the pirate gangs who have turned the waters off Somalia (http://www.theguardian.com/world/somalia) into the most dangerous in the world...

[SASless]

I am a Cold War Warrior....and recall a Briefing I attended by US Naval Intelligence that was a shocker....as it turned the Conventional Wisdom up side down.

The Briefing was done in part by folks dressed in Russian Uniforms appropriate for the Rank they represented. They gave us a briefing on "their" Military which was very effective in putting a Face on the "Bad Guys".

That was about the time we were building our 600 Ship Navy under Reagan and Lehman....something that was very controversial.

The Briefing was being done by some who thought the 600 ship fleet was a huge mistake, too costly, and more importantly did not pay attention to the actual situation we faced with the Soviet Navy.

One of the points made was the American Navy stayed at sea, oft times in the Soviets waters which provoked reactions from them.....while the Soviet Navy tended to stay dockside or very close to home. Admiral Lyons was very much for "in Your Face" Ops.

Our Intel guys were trying to get the message across the Soviet Navy was not the threat some in high places were making it out to be and aggressive fleet ops were actually making the situation worse rather than better.

We later saw the downfall of the Soviet Union which led to the decrease in Russian capability and negated the need for the 600 Ship Fleet (which we could not Man or maintain to begin with).

I see a lesson there.....if we pull back to our homelands, cut our expensive Ops pace, get out of folks' faces, defend our Homeland....can we not do a better job of keeping the threat away and lessen the effect of what goes on now? We can never withdraw completely as there are legitimate needs for some Troops being outside the borders but if they are low key, low vis, and very discrete in what they do...perhaps that is the better path.

If we become Energy independent and no longer care about Middle Eastern Oil and the Straits of Hormuz....align ourselves with South, Central, and North American nations....that also would work to isolate us from those that are so prone to find reason to attack us.

We do not do Nation Building and Conflicts Short of War well. We do deep water Naval Ops and Air Defense quite well. Perhaps that is what we need to get back to doing and avoid that which gets us into very bad situations.

Perhaps our senior military leadership needs to take on a marketing effort with the current occupant in the White House and those that surround him. If they did....they might make us a lot safer than we are today.